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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    I have a question for AOS points-book-havers - how many points are Ripperdactyls?
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Quote Originally Posted by LCP View Post
    I have a question for AOS points-book-havers - how many points are Ripperdactyls?
    140/3. Terradons are the same.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    So, prompted by the discussions above about building competitively - is there any reason for someone who's willing to use them not to spam rippers in skink patrols? 140/280pts to delete a unit of your choice on T1 seems like a bargain.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Quote Originally Posted by LCP View Post
    So, prompted by the discussions above about building competitively - is there any reason for someone who's willing to use them not to spam rippers in skink patrols? 140/280pts to delete a unit of your choice on T1 seems like a bargain.
    Because you want to get games in the future?

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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Quote Originally Posted by LCP View Post
    140/280pts to delete a unit of your choice on T1 seems like a bargain.
    Of your choice? On Turn 1? I hardly think so. Are you 100% sure you're not talking about Terradons? It's the Terradons that drop the rocks (and not even that happens on Turn 1). You're going to have to explain to me how Ripperdactyls can delete units, because I don't see it.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Of your choice? On Turn 1? I hardly think so. Are you 100% sure you're not talking about Terradons? It's the Terradons that drop the rocks (and not even that happens on Turn 1). You're going to have to explain to me how Ripperdactyls can delete units, because I don't see it.
    3 attacks per model with their beaks once the toad is placed, their skink patrol formation grants them re-rolls to hit and wound when they declare their swooping attack IIRC. For every hit, you get another attack that can generate more attacks. Even at base levels, a unit of 3 is generating ~32ish wounds. At least there's no rend and only 1 damage, but that's an incredible amount of saves to roll for 140 points. Since they move, what, 10"? 14"? and fly, there's not much that can get away from them reliably either. That's 10 unsaved wounds on a 3+ armour save model. 6 Razordons statistically 1 round Archaon before he can strike back as long as he doesn't have mystic shield or is in a forest. That's kind of OK for 280 points, I guess.

    Also IIRC, a Saurus BSB summoned in next to the target hands out re-rolls to hit as well, so you can do it without needing the formation if you don't want skinks for whatever reason, though obviously no re-roll to wound.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    their skink patrol formation...
    Ah. Something I'm not paying attention to. Probably why I missed it.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Except that with Rules of One you don't generate extra hits off of generated extra attacks, and Ripperdactyls are the unit they use as an example.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    That's bad writing then - the ripperdactyl rules (at least the ones they have online) explicitly say they do.

    Because you want to get games in the future?
    As I said, for someone willing to use them. There's always gentleman's agreements to be had around cheesy builds but if this one existed I was thinking that it made competitive list-building pretty much moot. There would be the Ripper List and then there were Lists That Will Lose To The Ripper List.

    their skink patrol formation grants them re-rolls to hit and wound when they declare their swooping attack IIRC
    That's actually in their base rules - they get the double re-rolls just in exchange for "coming down to ground level" (a fairly meaningless penalty if you measure base-to-base). The skink patrol lets them set up in reserve and then drop anywhere on the board - including directly into combat - turn 1 (or on a subsequent turn if you want to hold them back for some reason - but then your opponent will know where the toad is and can run away). Plus they get +1 to wound if the Skink Priest leading the formation has LOS to their target.

    A Skink Patrol of 1 Skink Priest, 2 Chameleon Skinks and 1 Ripper Unit can deploy just 1 model (the Skink Priest - who is titchy and easy to hide out of LOS, and can have a Cloak of Feathers to fly around at 14" a turn), and then T1 set up all 3 of its proper units anywhere on the board with no limits on proximity to the enemy. The chameleons can subsequently teleport away too. Point, click, delete.


    Edit: Ah it's a GH rule. So they are errata-ing the base game as well as adding a pts system.
    Last edited by LCP; 2016-07-25 at 08:17 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Is that only for matched play, or is that just a thing that happens now? 'Cause if so, you'd think that they'd change their pdf's so people who don't buy the handbook are playing wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Is that only for matched play, or is that just a thing that happens now? 'Cause if so, you'd think that they'd change their pdf's so people who don't buy the handbook are playing wrong.
    Technically the Rules of One are always in effect for Matched Play, but are optional for other types of play if people wish to use them.

    But let's be real, aside from people running fun/themed games or campaigns, you're going to be playing Matched Play. Probably 95% of the time.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by LCP View Post
    Edit: Ah it's a GH rule. So they are errata-ing the base game as well as adding a pts system.
    Yes. That is why the game is worth playing post-TGH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Is that only for matched play, or is that just a thing that happens now?
    Only for Matched Play, which is the only mode worth playing.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2016-07-25 at 09:27 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Yes. That is why the game is worth playing post-TGH.
    Closing basic bugs in the engine that have been known about pretty much since GW started making wargames doesn't qualify AOS as "worth playing" IMO. It might be worth playing for other reasons, but that reason alone, while necessary, is not sufficient.
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    So I'm actually really intrigued in starting a SE army after our little chat. At least, as a core for an Order army. I'm just worried about their efficiency as a low model count army, which I feel is a pretty reasonable concern with how easy some other armies can remove models via MW and high rend stuff.

    Obviously it isn't as bad as it is in 40k, but will I be kicking myself for not going for a higher model count force? For example, Chaos Warriors have essentially the same statline as Liberators for less points, but with a different support structure.
    Last edited by Requizen; 2016-07-25 at 04:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    I feel like Sigmar is, ultimately, a system that is simultaneously harder to udnerstand and has less depth than 40k. Without universal rules, it requires you to know EVERY SINGLE MODEL to really master it, but because it's so damn simplified, it's just much more basic than 40k. Less rules is not a good thing. (It's not a bad thing either-Sigmar games tend to take a lot less time than 40k games, just because they go much faster.)
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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    I feel like Sigmar is, ultimately, a system that is simultaneously harder to udnerstand and has less depth than 40k. Without universal rules, it requires you to know EVERY SINGLE MODEL to really master it, but because it's so damn simplified, it's just much more basic than 40k. Less rules is not a good thing. (It's not a bad thing either-Sigmar games tend to take a lot less time than 40k games, just because they go much faster.)
    You're right, it's not good or bad. But I believe there is much more depth to it than you may perceive at first. Probably not as much as 40k, but you also don't need to know nearly as much to play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Without universal rules, it requires you to know EVERY SINGLE MODEL to really master it...
    Like I said, to play 40K (or old WHFB) I'm expected to know almost 120 Pages worth of rules, if I'm to take the game seriously. Not including my Codex/Army Book.
    To imply that it's difficult to remember the <10 Warscrolls in your army, means something.
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Like I said, to play 40K (or old WHFB) I'm expected to know almost 120 Pages worth of rules, if I'm to take the game seriously. Not including my Codex/Army Book.
    To imply that it's difficult to remember the <10 Warscrolls in your army, means something.
    Oh, it's easy to play. But I mean to master EVERYTHING. Since there's no universal rules, that means knowing every last warscroll from every army.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Oh, it's easy to play. But I mean to master EVERYTHING. Since there's no universal rules, that means knowing every last warscroll from every army.
    Well, it doesn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Oh, it's easy to play. But I mean to master EVERYTHING. Since there's no universal rules, that means knowing every last warscroll from every army.
    That's a little disingenuous. There's just as much of that in 40k, in order to be at a "competitive" level you're expected to know how all sorts of units work across multiple codices, those different army's special rules/detachments/artifacts, their guns and their different effects, the psychic powers even if you don't use them, etc. And for some armies (for example, Nids) that might also mean being aware of multiple different sources outside of the codex for those armies, like supplements, campaigns, White Dwarfs, and random dataslates.

    Just because some rules are USRs doesn't mean 40k is somehow so much more centralized and without spread out things you have to know. The "knowledge barrier" to 40k is probably much higher and also not free (legally).

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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    The game is brand new. I'm not going to pretend that I know how all the units work. I'm not even going to pretend that I know how my own Order book works (but I'm learning), but it's not actually your responsibility to memorise every unit in the game.

    Roll Mission. Learn what you need to do to win the game.
    Deployment;
    Where's your General? How many Wounds and what Armour Save?
    Any Wizards or Priests? How many Wounds and what Armour Save?
    Any Heroes handing out other buffs? What do they do and Wounds and Armour Save?
    What does that Monster do?

    By simply asking my opponent questions, I learn what I need to do to win. I learn how my opponent plans on winning, even if I've never seen the unit before. It's my responsibility to memorise my Warscrolls (I haven't seen a single army with more than 10 distinct units), it's my opponent's responsibility to memorise their Warscrolls. And it's both players' responsibility to let each other know what they're doing and how they're doing it.

    Obviously, I have to remember what my opponent tells me...Alternatively, I can keep asking them the same question over and over and over again.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2016-07-25 at 06:22 PM.
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Things one thing I will predict to be "meta strong" once Matched Play starts to settle is Wizards with d6 MW spells, especially of they're also able to cast 2 per turn. There are plenty of foot heroes with 5W, so the ability to potentially snipe them out is huge, and they can more easily cut down multi-wound power units than Wizards just Arcane Bolt. Also capable of knocking Behemoths down a couple wound categories if they use charts, which is good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    Things one thing I will predict to be "meta strong" once Matched Play starts to settle is Wizards with d6 MW spells,
    Anything that does D6 MWs is immediately worth taking, and is quite a strong reason for why I only rate models with 7 or more Wounds to be Generals.

    especially of they're also able to cast 2 per turn.
    Which only illustrates how important having your own Wizards and Priests are for Unbinding.

    There are plenty of foot heroes with 5W
    And nearly all of them are bad. See the thing about Generals needing 7 or more Wounds.

    Also, you are factoring in [Spell]+Arcane Bolt, right, as the two spells? Not [Spell]+[Same Spell]? Rule of One. Just checking.
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Also, you are factoring in [Spell]+Arcane Bolt, right, as the two spells? Not [Spell]+[Same Spell]? Rule of One. Just checking.
    Either that or spell + mystic shield. +1 saves is not to be scoffed at if your opponents army isn't based around doing mortal wounds, doubly so if you've got a built in re-roll mechanic to your unit.

    Or maybe it's just that I see a lot of big, killy units (either Monstrous Creature or group of Monstrous Infantry) that really benefit from moving from terrain to terrain and having a 2+ after mystic shield.

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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Either that or spell + mystic shield. +1 saves is not to be scoffed at if your opponents army isn't based around doing mortal wounds, doubly so if you've got a built in re-roll mechanic to your unit.
    Mystic Shield is indeed a pain, and why I like to go after Wizards, and why I have my own. But Requizen isn't wrong. If you can roll D6+D3 MWs to someone's General or lynchpin Hero on Turn 1, with no apparent immediate consequences, you should probably go for the throat.
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Yeah, Casting Level 2 (keep wanting to type ML2 lol) is super good. If you don't instagib something with your d6 spell, you can finish it with Arcane Bolt. If you do instagib it, you Shield someone. Win/win. A lot of combo models end up being foot Heroes. Necromancers for Skeleton/Zombie blobs, Sorcerer Lords for Daemonic Power, and if you're lucky, you can snipe a Knight-Azyros before the Lightning Strike comes down.

    But the thing I like is that it's difficult. Most of these spells have a 12" or 18" range, with only a few being "super long" at 24". And casting comes before movement (unless you're Destruction, because Destruction), so it becomes a game of position/counter-position to keep your lynchpin units alive. Which is good.

    I've resolved on Stormcast. Decided to split a Starter Set with an acquaintance and have a Start Collecting preordered (even though, as I said, the plan is to add mostly Judicators, Prosecutors, and Dracoths in the future), and already have a paint scheme picked out. Now all to do is figure out what Order stuff is necessary to add - obviously a Wizard or three of some sort.

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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    So, I have some Bretonnians sitting in my closet collecting dust, mostly just basic Knights of the Realm, A Paladin, Green Knight and a box or two of longbowmen. How did they get treated in the generals handbook? Is it worth pulling them out, dusting them off and (finishing) painting them for casual play?
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayt View Post
    So, I have some Bretonnians sitting in my closet collecting dust, mostly just basic Knights of the Realm, A Paladin, Green Knight and a box or two of longbowmen. How did they get treated in the generals handbook?
    Perfectly fine.

    Is it worth pulling them out, dusting them off and (finishing) painting them for casual play?
    I don't think so. A quick run through the 'book', or, at least going through the entries for the models you have, tells me that if you haven't been playing AoS, then you can probably still not play AoS if you don't have money to buy new models. The models you have...Just aren't very good, and TGH only gave them points. The Green Knight is fine at 200 Points, especially since he doesn't even die right, and he can Infiltrate anew every time he comes back...

    But the glaring problem is the rules, not the points.
    Bretonnians go from Louen himself at 10 Wounds and 400 Points (which isn't a lot, considering), to 'everything else' with only 5 Wounds. I assumed that a Lord on Pegasus might get +2 Wounds, but, no such luck. As I mentioned in a previous post, Heroes - and especially Generals - with less than 7 Wounds...Aren't survivable. Straight off the bat, Cannon. Two shots, one misses, wounds on 2+, with Rend -2. Even a 3+ Save is down to 5+. That's bad. Then your opponent rolls a (un)lucky 5 or 6, and your General/Hero is just dead. The Green Knight only has 5 Wounds, but at least he comes back...Sometimes.

    A Bretonnian Lord is 140 Points, has 5 Wounds and is kind of okay.
    A Choas Lord on Daemonic Mount is also 140 Points, has 7 Wounds, and hits like truck, and has a 5++.

    With that perspective, there are probably all sorts of things in the Bretonnian list that are overcosted.
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  29. - Top - End - #119
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Well, that's a bit disappointing. The thing I forgot to mention is a quartet of pegasi, though I expect that doesn't change much.
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  30. - Top - End - #120
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2012

    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    I dunno, they seem a bit overpointed but you can always take them out for a game, it doesn't cost you anything but some time. Try em out, cavalry is pretty good and people are still learning how everything works as far as meta and builds go.

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