The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Well, the global campaign is over, and AoS in my local store shows no signs of slowing down. People who already knew how to break the game if they ever bothered to pick up AoS, have now picked up AoS, and have finally bought their armies after six weeks. There's an AoS tournament happening this weekend in my area (I'm not going), and then another - better - one in October. So, yeah. Anyone who's even opened an AoS book already knew which units were good and which units were bad. The only thing The General's Handbook really did was give stuff points and nerf Wizards.
    The idea that we would 'have to wait and see' to how the meta plays out was ludicrous. The meta was already made, the only question was whether or not stuff was reasonably costed or not.

    In any case;
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Out of curiosity, what are you seeing as the "uber broken" units? Beastclaw Raiders are generally agreed to be undercosted/overstatted around here, but at least somewhat balanced by the low model count (though that's little consolation when they table things). Artillery/Warmachines are pretty big as well, with the Hurricanum and Flame Cannon being the biggest offenders in my eyes. And of course, 40 Handgunner Free People's armies is pretty much considered everybody's nightmare, though our Empire Free People's player isn't mean enough to do that.

    I think it's really easy to make a strong list, but honestly after getting smacked around the 40k tourney scene, I don't think the disparity between finely-tuned "rear-kicker" lists and your moderately well put together AoS force is nearly as big as it is in 40k. Fluffy lists will always get rolled, but that's expected in any game.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Can I just drop in and ask: why does anyone play AOS? It's essentially a (small) collection of bad rules resembling a game, that's unbalanced and barely playable. Everyone could just laugh it off if it didn't destroy WHFB, which, despite not being as big as 40K, still had a large fanbase and was a good game. Then someone decides since it's not doing as well as 40K, so they change the models to look like 40K, get rid of all the WHFB products and support, then throw those free rules out there. This would be more acceptable if better rules aren't written every time someone smashes on a keyboard. It's a poor marketing scheme that destroyed a good game.

    Just ranting because I used to play Warhammer.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedanster7000 View Post
    why does anyone play AOS? It's essentially a (small) collection of bad rules resembling a game, that's unbalanced and barely playable.
    The General's Handbook is out. Your argument is invalid.
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedanster7000 View Post
    Can I just drop in and ask: why does anyone play AOS? It's essentially a (small) collection of bad rules resembling a game, that's unbalanced and barely playable. Everyone could just laugh it off if it didn't destroy WHFB, which, despite not being as big as 40K, still had a large fanbase and was a good game. Then someone decides since it's not doing as well as 40K, so they change the models to look like 40K, get rid of all the WHFB products and support, then throw those free rules out there. This would be more acceptable if better rules aren't written every time someone smashes on a keyboard. It's a poor marketing scheme that destroyed a good game.

    Just ranting because I used to play Warhammer.
    These are the sort of arguments that are brought up by people who have not played the game, or at least, haven't played it since GW started giving a crap about the game. If you're bitter about the change from WHFB to AoS, that's fine and totally understandable, but that doesn't change the fact that the game actually works nowadays. Saying it doesn't is a bit petty, but I do understand why some people are very averse to it.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    If you're bitter about the change from WHFB to AoS, that's fine and totally understandable, but that doesn't change the fact that the game actually works nowadays.
    Only thing that worries me, currently, and only for newer/younger players, is that the game is quite solidly built around combos. This unit, and That unit, by themselves, aren't very good. This unit and That unit, using their combined Abilities suddenly make a power combo and off you go. You have to pick a General with a good Command Ability, and you intentionally take units that take advantage of that Command Ability, and you need ways to keep your General alive and not get one-shotted, etc. Basically, you can't build your list organically, and that's a problem. Not for me, personally. Because...

    The reason that there's only 4 pages of rules, is because every unit in the game has their own rules. I've found that 'People Who Don't Read Good' can't play Age of Sigmar. Or, more accurately, they can't build good army lists and don't understand the nuances that make their Faction work. Especially given the fact that you can take any single model in your entire Grand Alliance. You have access to every unit in the book. Have you read all of the unit entries? Do you remember that guy's ability from 20 pages back, and how you can pair it with another model you just read?

    Most importantly; Are you still stuck in the Single Faction mindset? If you don't have a post-TGH Battletome (currently, Beastclaw Raiders is the only one, and is arguably the best Faction in game, probably because of it), you shouldn't be playing a single Faction.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2016-09-04 at 07:40 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Ah, I hadn't heard about the GH because I don't really follow GW anymore. I'll give it a look, perhaps this game is redeemed.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedanster7000 View Post
    Ah, I hadn't heard about the GH because I don't really follow GW anymore. I'll give it a look, perhaps this game is redeemed.
    It's still not WHFB, though Kings of War or Ninth Age are popular for that. AoS is a really solid little skirmish game though, I'd recommend looking at the updated rules a bit to see if you'll enjoy it! Ask here too, Cheese, Drasius and I have been playing and can answer questions.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    And you thought that 40k was the only system to dial things to 11 and then keep twisting the dial? While technically impressive, IMHO, this is pretty much the definition of overkill for the remnants of a game that used to be about ranked infantry. I remember seeing the leaked pics of this and thinking that it might be cool, but now, it's just going to be too unwieldy to use for regular games in addition to undoubtedly having such blatant OP rules that it won't be fun or interesting to fight.

    Yet more nails in the coffin for AoS for me I'm afraid.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    In all fairness, that's a Forge World piece right? Forge World were putting out impractical "display shelf" models that you were never realistically going to use for gaming right from day one. I can't remember exactly when the Fire Dragon came out but from the forum posts I can find on google it's been around for at least ten years.

    It does look very big-for-the-sake-of-big though. Maybe it's just that it's a work in progress, but looking at the photo I don't really see much more detail than there is on the old metal Carnosaur, which probably comes up to that thing's ankle.

    (Unless it's a 3-up? They used to make large scale prototypes of all their miniatures - with how much of their work is done in CAD now I don't know if they do that any more)
    Last edited by LCP; 2016-10-14 at 07:57 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Yeah, considering the things FW has been pushing lately include the Tau'nar and the Warlord-Class Titan, big sizes don't surprise me anymore.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Monsters are more balanced in Age of Sigmar than they ever were in fantasy due to their power actually dropping the more wounds they suffer and the fact that everything can hurt anything else.

    Ranked infantry getting annihilated by over powered stuff was how fantasy has always worked except maybe (and that's a big maybe) in early 6th ed.

    I also prefer ranked infantry games actually based around how armies fought at a point in history rather than nonsensical mechanics that don't represent how any fight would ever play out but bitter moaning about stuff that isn't anything new is pointless.

    Its a work in progress so its probably a 3 up. Wouldn't be surprised either way.
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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Monsters are more balanced in Age of Sigmar than they ever were in fantasy due to their power actually dropping the more wounds they suffer and the fact that everything can hurt anything else.

    Ranked infantry getting annihilated by over powered stuff was how fantasy has always worked except maybe (and that's a big maybe) in early 6th ed.
    Gotta argue with that. Monsters were fine - even a little under-used - throughout 6th and 7th, and even in 8th it was only a small selection of monsters (mostly those that were Unbreakable/Stubborn and had access to a good saves) that were over the top. Plenty of monsters remained seldom seen.
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  14. - Top - End - #164
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    As I've said before and will undoubtedly say again, the decreasing power of Monstrous Creatures as they take wounds is one of the best representations I can think of and one of the very, very few things that I fervently hope is integrated into 8th for 40k.

    In 8th ed WHFB, nobody really used MC's since they were cannon bait and you would dread to hear 8" from the back of the base. It was only a few MC's that would be used, with the existence of dragons almost as mythical then as in real life since it was just going to get shot off the board with sniper accurate cannon fire on the first turn.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Hm, not sure what to take between Skyborne Slayers and Warrior Brotherhood. Warrior Brotherhood allows for more flexible positioning (since you don't need to deploy around a single point and can come in delayed over a few turns), but has a higher requirement. Though the requirements are also flexible, as I'd rather bring Retributors + Protectors instead of Skyborne's Decimators + Protectors. You can get around the larget deployment bubble by making one of the heroes a Knight-Azyros for his Lantern, letting him bring Retributors in right next to their target. And of course, there's Skyborne being Shockimmune vs just a bonus from Brotherhood.

    What do you guys think between them? I know I'm going a Deep StrikeCelestial Realm force, but I'm not sure the specifics yet.

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Had our tourney this past weekend, was a good time! I only got to play the first round (I was the ringer and someone came late), but the games were varied and good. We had:

    -Ironjawz with Ironfist and Mawkrusha
    -Ironjawz with Gordrakk and second Mawkrusha
    -Khorne mixed Daemons/Mortals/Bloodborne
    -Tzeentch Daemons with lots of shooting
    -Brayherd/Warherd super Elite army
    -Flesh Eater Court with Ghoul Patrol, 3 Terrorgheists, and a Zombie Dragon (one of those had a Ghoul King)
    -Death mix with Nagash, Neferata, a Necromancer, Zombies, Skeletons, and a couple Tomb Scorpions.
    -Free People's army with lots of artillery, a Hurricanum, and some Brettonian Knights

    So a bit of everything for variety. The Ironfist Ironjawz player ended up the champion, going undefeated and playing a pretty tactical day.

    I personally was pretty scared of the Death armies - Nagash went up to a 2+ ignoring rends when combo'd with Neferata, and ended up going unkilled all day. The FEC army had 4 behemoths and his Ghouls were pretty durable and were able to control the board thanks to their battalion. I honestly don't know how I would have dealt with either if we had played, quite cool to see the field.

    We ran Border War, Escalation, and Gifts From the Heavens straight out of the book. It went ok, but there probably needs to be a more granulated scoring system on my part in the future. Luckily we had only one undefeated person, so it wasn't a big deal.

    People already talking about modifications to their lists and strategies, which is good for the scene!

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Our AoS tournament has been pushed back. Similar to our 40K tournament soon, huge demand and limited places has meant that the AoS tournament will also be a doubles tournament. I'm pretty sure my partner will be a Death army with respawning Crypt Horrors - the army list can be seen earlier in thread.
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    So, some of the people at my FLGS are getting into Sigmar, and so I was thinking of starting on an army for that since I am one Broadside away from finishing my Tau.

    I was liking the Seraphon, but there is someone already building some of those, and I like being different. On the other hand no one appears to be doing stormcasts, so I was thinking of looking at those. (also, I think they would be more amenable to my painting skills)

    Since I really, really like the stardrake, here is what I came up with:

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    Skyborne Slayers 140
    Lord-Cellestant 100
    Judicators (bows) 160
    Judicators (crossbows) 160
    Liberators 100
    Liberators 100
    Retributors 200
    Protectors 200

    Stardrake 600
    Prosecutors 80
    Prosecutors 80
    Prosecutors 80

  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaktan View Post
    So, some of the people at my FLGS are getting into Sigmar, and so I was thinking of starting on an army for that since I am one Broadside away from finishing my Tau.

    I was liking the Seraphon, but there is someone already building some of those, and I like being different. On the other hand no one appears to be doing stormcasts, so I was thinking of looking at those. (also, I think they would be more amenable to my painting skills)

    Since I really, really like the stardrake, here is what I came up with:

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    Skyborne Slayers 140
    Lord-Cellestant 100
    Judicators (bows) 160
    Judicators (crossbows) 160
    Liberators 100
    Liberators 100
    Retributors 200
    Protectors 200

    Stardrake 600
    Prosecutors 80
    Prosecutors 80
    Prosecutors 80
    Looks solid to me. I'm honestly of the opinion that Skyborne or Warrior Brotherhood is the only way to run Stormcast. There are some footslogging builds... but I honestly haven't seen any of them do well at all. Do note that you need a unit of Decimators for Skyborne instead of Retributors, no choice there (though there is in Warrior Brotherhood).

    The Stardrake is a cool model, I agree! I want to get one at one point - but do be aware that it's a big scary model that will run through many things and spits out ranged mortal wounds. People may or may not hate you for bringing it. I personally don't think it's overly powerful compared to some of the stuff out there (though my SE bias should be taken into account), just know that the first game you bring it and it soaks more damage than it should followed by wiping multiple units in a turn, people may call cheese.

    In related news, I picked up my Celestant Prime. I think, in general, he underperforms by himself, but when the rest of your army is also deep striking, he is an effective tool to combo with them and snipe out important models/units with his insane melee profile and free mortal wounds.

  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Oh, yeah, I just got confused on the retributors, keeping all the stormcast names straight is tricky when you are first looking at them.

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    Sort of odd that they put in named characters, immediately devaluing duplicate boxes for some people. Also odd that Ironjawz get a Gargant for some reason.

    But you can't argue with those insane savings. I'll be getting the Stormcast one for sure.

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Looking at the Stormcast box, here is a list I came up with.

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    Skyborne Slayers 140
    Lord-Celestant 100
    Judicators 160
    Judicators 160
    Liberators 100
    Liberators 100
    Decimators 200
    Protectors 200

    Celestant-Prime 360 (?)
    Knight-Azyros 100
    Prosecutors 80
    Dracothian Guard 240

    Total: 1940


    This would use the Battleforce, one start collecting box, two boxes of Judicators, and one box of paladins.

    Not sure what to do with the last few points. Probably a gryp-hound, but that requires an extra $40 kit, which goes against my building-on-a-budget planning.

    Not sure which Dracothian Guard are best. I am leaning towards the fulminators, since they have the bonus against shooting which would be useful as one of my 3 units that starts on the board. On the other hand, the Concussors are more reliable when they don't get the charge, and the longer range on the lightning means they can better help snip enemy heros and stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaktan View Post
    Looking at the Stormcast box, here is a list I came up with.

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    Skyborne Slayers 140
    Lord-Celestant 100
    Judicators 160
    Judicators 160
    Liberators 100
    Liberators 100
    Decimators 200
    Protectors 200

    Celestant-Prime 360 (?)
    Knight-Azyros 100
    Prosecutors 80
    Dracothian Guard 240

    Total: 1940


    This would use the Battleforce, one start collecting box, two boxes of Judicators, and one box of paladins.

    Not sure what to do with the last few points. Probably a gryp-hound, but that requires an extra $40 kit, which goes against my building-on-a-budget planning.

    Not sure which Dracothian Guard are best. I am leaning towards the fulminators, since they have the bonus against shooting which would be useful as one of my 3 units that starts on the board. On the other hand, the Concussors are more reliable when they don't get the charge, and the longer range on the lightning means they can better help snip enemy heros and stuff.
    Don't count on the Concussor's lightning to do a whole lot. One shot hitting on a 4+ is alright but nothing special.

    In general - The Concussor is better all around in combat. The Fulminators are only stronger on the charge, after that or if they get charged the Concussors are better. The Fulminators like you said also have the +1 save against shooting, which is pretty good overall, and aren't bad in combat (their mounts do more damage than them normally, but that's whatever), and their shooting attack is actually really good. I'd say Fulminators - they're more defensive and cheaper, though you get less MWs out of them than Concussors.

    The Azyros in your list is a bit misplaced - it's not really doing much other than maybe providing the +1 to hit. His big use is in conjunction with Warrior Brotherhood to give them the better Lighting Strike, and he doesn't do anything with the Slayers. If the kit in the box is the full Knight-Azyros kit, consider building it as a Knight-Venator, who is more self-sufficient.

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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Good to know. I did not realize they were a double kit.

    The Venator does seem to fit better with the list, where it will be him, the prosecutors, and the fulminators starting on the board, with everything else coming in to support.

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    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Yet another reason to love the current AoS team. Look at this.



    Go on Facebook and put up your thoughts. I don't have any current things I can think of but I know what I'll be pondering all weekend long.

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    So, today checking the General's handbook at the FLGS to see if Dracoth Riders are battleline (they are not) I realized that Liberators come in units of 5, not 10, so the battalion box has 2 units of liberators, not one. I felt a little silly for not realizing this earlier. On the other hand, it does make my Sigmarines-on-a-budget plan $50 cheaper, assuming I can kitbash the extra crossbows from a judicator kit onto one set of liberators.

    Also, what are people's thoughts on the magic maces for protectors and decimators? From running the numbers, a protector will do about 1.5 average damage to a monster with a 4+, while the mace does 2 average; however the mace can only do 3 max, while the glaive has a much higher upside. Also the glaive has 3'' range rather than 1''.

    For the decimators, it is around 4-6 models that need to be in range of their axes before the damage starts to equal with the maces. This does not seem that hard to get with 2'' range. On the other hand, against heros, monsters, or the dregs of units, the maces still do their consistent damage. And I was going to say something about possibly messing up your attacks with the other weapon, but after re-reading the rules, I see that you do all your attacks against one unit, and then apply the damage. (I think I am reading that right....)

  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaktan View Post
    For the decimators, it is around 4-6 models that need to be in range of their axes before the damage starts to equal with the maces. This does not seem that hard to get with 2'' range. On the other hand, against heros, monsters, or the dregs of units, the maces still do their consistent damage. And I was going to say something about possibly messing up your attacks with the other weapon, but after re-reading the rules, I see that you do all your attacks against one unit, and then apply the damage. (I think I am reading that right....)
    Have you read this yet? Decimators aren't good, and Protectors are great.
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    You can fight like a krogan or run like a leopard but you'll never be better than Commander Shepard.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  28. - Top - End - #178
    Orc in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Yes, I have read that. But I need both of them for the skybourne slayers, so the idea is how to make the best of having them.

  29. - Top - End - #179
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2012

    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    You do need to bring Decimators, who are (relatively) bad. The nice thing is you can (almost) always guarantee that they'll get to an appropriate target with Skyborne Slayers. One of the nice things about the Warrior Brotherhood is that you can run Retributors instead. Both are good for various reasons, though.

    That said, I'd say give the Decimators 2 Starsoul Maces because when they don't go against hordes, they're really meh. They'll get on average 3 swings or less against elite/medium sized units and only 1 against monsters/heroes. The Maces will do similar or more damage against anything that's not hordes, which is good times.

    Protectors are still reasonably good against things that aren't hordes. The Maces also have less range than their regular weapons, and they're getting 3 swings no matter what. I think I read the math was about the same between a Mace Protectors vs a regular one against a standard target, but they have a much higher potential against Monsters. So... it's a bit of a toss up but I'd say keep them all with Glaives because there's nothing quite like rolling five 6s against a Mawkrusha and removing from the board without a thought.

  30. - Top - End - #180
    Orc in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

    Ok. That makes sense, the glaives have a higher floor than the axes, so they do not neccessarily need the consistency of the maces as much as the decimators do. Also, I guess it depends on if 2/3 the average damage is worth the rare 6-to-wound into 6 damage.

    Interestingly over on reddit they think the decimators' axes are too good to replace with maces....

    In other news, with the growing interest in Age of Sigmar, my FLGS is planning a tournament next month for all the people who are getting into it. It would be a 740 point limit, with composition limits/requirements of a 1000 point army.

    Currently I am thinking of getting the Battalion box, and based on what I want to have eventually, I would be able to fit this list:

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    Celestant-Prime 360
    Knight-venator 120

    Liberators 100
    Liberators 100

    Total: 680 points


    Basically the liberators form a solid anchor, while the venator peppers important enemy units. On turn 2 or 3 the Prime comes in for HAMMERTIME!

    The store owner said he wants a friendly tournament for all us new people, and he is bringing something like this:

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    Firespear battalion 60
    Scar-vet on cold one 100
    Saurous cavalry x10 240
    Saurous cavalry 120
    Saurous cavalry 120

    Skink starpriest 100

    Total: 740


    So what does the playground think of my list? Too strong? Too weak? Hillarious to play when the prime come in and starts deleating stuff? Too easy to die before he shows up?

    Alternatively, I just realized I could proxy one dracoth rider as a lord-celestant on dracoth, which would give me:

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    Lord-Celestant on Dracoth 220
    Knight-venator 120

    Liberators 100
    Liberators 100
    Protectors 200

    Total: 740


    This seems a more rounded list than the first one, what does the playground think?

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