Looking for a System

[Trask]

Hey forumgoers, I have a question to pose.

I'm getting a little tired of D&D 3.5/Pathfinder gameplay that I've been running for my D&D life. I started with it about a year ago and its been fun but as a DM I've grown extremely weary of many elements of the game. I'm on the market for a new system to try and there are a couple of stipulations that I hope some of you can help me with in looking for one

1. No grid
I know that I can run Pathfinder/3.5 without a grid, and I have. But its not the same as playing a system designed with that in mind in the first place. I have come to DETEST the grid, 5 ft steps, AoO, and everything about it. I can just feel the partition between roleplay and combat in my player's minds once combat starts and I hate how I have to run monsters and creatures with 2 intelligence as hyper tactical just to keep up with the metagaming that the grid allows. There are good qualities to a grid but I am looking for a system that can be run well without it.

2. Smooth and Fast combat
Pathfinder is so crunchy its insane. Coupled with rampant tactical deliberating, simple decisions about when the barbarian is going to charge in can take 5 or 6 whole minutes! That is ridiculous and I hate it with a passion. I want combat that is light and flowing, that encourages loose narrative flow rather than hunkering around like generals.

3. Character classes
I do still want character classes, I know a lot of systems dont use them but I do like them and the structure that they provide, I dont yet feel comfortable venturing beyond them and I definitely dont think my players will either. Another must is that the classes are "relatively" balanced and that there is no ridiculous kind of power imbalance like in Pathfinder/3.5. I really dislike that because it stifles player creativity. Its actually kind of appalling in my opinion that people dont even care how grossly imbalanced the system is. I dont need uber balance, but more than the wizard gods and monk peasants of pf/35 would be nice.

4. D20
I would prefer to stay in a D20 system because its all me and my players know, and as I said before I'm not looking for them to just reject my system change entirely. I think a D20 system will be a good way to open them up.

5. Not crunchy gameplay, but varied options
I did say that I dont want/like hyper crunchy gameplay and tactics but I and my players do enjoy a fairly varied and diverse set of character creation options. They do like choice a lot and so do I, Im not looking for some super sparse ultra freeform system because I just dont think we want that lack of structure and we do enjoy interesting character options.

6. Fantasy
This one is a little less mandatory as I am into lots of different kinds of genres of imagination, but generally I think it would be good to stick to sense of classic fantasy or at least something similar.

This ended up being a long post, so I'll stick a TL;DR
Looking for a fast combat, gridless, D20 fantasy system with character classes and varied character options

Thanks and I eagerly await your suggestions.

[Koo Rehtorb]

It's not d20, but Dungeon World. It's specifically designed as a light, easy-to-play homage to D&D. No grids, no turns, and it has all the familiar D&D character classes.

[Friv]

This might be a dumb question... but have you considered D&D 5th Edition?

[Trask]

This might be a dumb question... but have you considered D&D 5th Edition?

I've heard good things about 5e, havent checked it out much myself. I have heard that its gridless variant isnt really that great though, still plagued with all the feet and distance based spacing. If I am wrong however please correct me.

And thanks I will check out Dungeon World
Also no turns? Damn how does that work.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Also no turns? Damn how does that work.

People just sort of go when it narratively makes sense for them to do so. By default people will generally fall into a pattern of moving around the table to avoid hogging the spotlight, but it gives more freedom for people to shake things up.

[Yora]

I would say Basic Fantasy. A nice Basic D&D clone that has all the simplicity of B/X but converted entirely to a character system and math that d20 players take for granted.

Six attributes, four races, four classes (and two multiclass options), and the whole rules on 50 pages. Which includes all the spells.

The character sheet does not include a lot of special abilities, but that actually gives players a lot of freedom in customizing the style of their characters without being pigeonholed into narrow archetypes. And there's generally very little dice rolling and a lot more deciding what you want to do based on what you think would feel right or be cool in the situation, without the rules goading anyone into specific behaviors because the characters get special bonuses when they do.

[Jelly d6]

Also no turns? Damn how does that work.

Well, that works _perfectly_.
Actually I haven't yet seen any turn-based combat systems that allow more or less natural narrative dynamics. But my scope is pretty limited...

[Trask]

I would say Basic Fantasy. A nice Basic D&D clone that has all the simplicity of B/X but converted entirely to a character system and math that d20 players take for granted.

Six attributes, four races, four classes (and two multiclass options), and the whole rules on 50 pages. Which includes all the spells.

The character sheet does not include a lot of special abilities, but that actually gives players a lot of freedom in customizing the style of their characters without being pigeonholed into narrow archetypes. And there's generally very little dice rolling and a lot more deciding what you want to do based on what you think would feel right or be cool in the situation, without the rules goading anyone into specific behaviors because the characters get special bonuses when they do.

Thanks for the suggestion, I will definitely check this one out. Huge fan of your Old World thread btw, I use it for inspiration all the time. How easy would you say it is to come up with new races/class features or even classes themselves in this system?

[BayardSPSR]

And thanks I will check out Dungeon World

Do - if you're a D&D player, Dungeon World will very quickly lead you to re-examine exactly what it is you want from your game. It may not work for you, but even if it doesn't it'll get you thinking about other ways you could arrive at your desired game style.

[Trask]

Do - if you're a D&D player, Dungeon World will very quickly lead you to re-examine exactly what it is you want from your game. It may not work for you, but even if it doesn't it'll get you thinking about other ways you could arrive at your desired game style.

I've been checking out the Dungeon World SRD and I'm rather impressed at the moment although I haven't dug too deep yet. I'm fairly impressed by the writing actually
"ringing the glory of your god to the heathens isn’t just in your nature—it’s your calling. It falls to you to proselytize with sword and mace and spell, to cleave deep into the witless heart of the wilds and plant the seed of divinity there. Some say that it’s best to keep the gods close to your heart. You know that’s rubbish. God lives at the edge of a blade."

Thats the class description for the Cleric and it is exceedingly evocative. I didnt expect it, and the classes themselves look good and well put together. I'm definitely gonna mess around with Dungeon World and maybe run a one shot, thanks for that suggestion.

But by all means everyone suggest something if it strikes you, I want to try a lot of systems.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I don't necessarily think this would be a good system to move to for your group because it's very difficult and unfamiliar and your players might revolt. But you were looking for varied suggestions.

Torchbearer is an amazing game that's trying to emulate 1st edition D&D but with a modern ruleset. You're a band of haggard outcasts from society who need to delve into dungeons and recover loot so they can afford to survive in a hostile world. It doesn't have tactical combat involving grids or anything like that. The combat revolves around the adventurers and the DM playing a card game against each other, blindly placing down three cards of "attack" "defend" "feint" and "maneuver". The cards all interact with each other in different ways and you flavour the battle with descriptions based on what cards you ended up playing against each other and roll dice. These four cards represent every sort of conflict between characters in the game from "killing everyone" to "convincing someone to do what you want", they just use different skills to power them based on what you're doing.

A thing that might be unfamiliar is that combat isn't the only, or even the biggest, danger in the game. You're always at risk of running out of light or food, getting lost or stranded in a dungeon, or just plain not having enough left in you to climb that last cliff to get back to safety before you drop dead from exhaustion. It's a hard game to master, but in a much different way than something like Pathfinder is.

I've heard it, rather accurately in my opinion, described as a misery simulator, and it's a ton of fun if you go into it with the right expectations and mindset.

[Yora]

How easy would you say it is to come up with new races/class features or even classes themselves in this system?

Quite easy. Here's a couple of custom classes that people have made.

[Friv]

Well, that works _perfectly_.
Actually I haven't yet seen any turn-based combat systems that allow more or less natural narrative dynamics. But my scope is pretty limited...

Cortex games (Marvel Heroic, Smallville, Leverage, Firefly) have a neat initiative system where each person decides who follows them up; everyone only gets to go once per round, but the order is decided person-to-person. It lets you both set things up in a narrative way, and make tactical choices about when it's a good idea to hand things off to the other guys.

And thanks I will check out Dungeon World
Also no turns? Damn how does that work.

The key to Dungeon World is that if you aren't acting, you generally don't get in trouble; you get hurt by failing at moves and opening up new risks. So in theory, if one player just kind of hangs back and does almost nothing, they will be safe for that fight - but also they won't accomplish anything. If someone tries to take every other action, they're going to become the focus of enemy attention and get beaten up.

[kyoryu]

The key to Dungeon World is that if you aren't acting, you generally don't get in trouble; you get hurt by failing at moves and opening up new risks. So in theory, if one player just kind of hangs back and does almost nothing, they will be safe for that fight - but also they won't accomplish anything. If someone tries to take every other action, they're going to become the focus of enemy attention and get beaten up.

The GM can also set you up with a soft move - "So the other orc charges at you with his axe. What do you do?"

But danger and action are tied together whether it's done proactively or reactively.

[Trask]

Dungeon world definitely sounds like it'll be a little too "radical" for my group but I am intrigued by it. I'll run it at some point.

[Trask]

Bump for more suggestions!

[Zman]

Give 5e a try, it is far more streamlined, balanced, and theatre of the mind friendly. I still run it using a hex grid, but honestly it works with theatre of the mind and a few descriptors, maybe some note to diagram the combats if needed.

Alternatively, you could give something very different like FATE a try.

[kyoryu]

Honestly, for 'gridless d20' you're pretty limited. Even with classes, you're going to be limited, as very few non-D&D games really do classes.

My best recommendation would be 5e, as it really seems to hit the areas you're looking for. Earlier D&D would work well, too, (and might be better gridless), but don't really give as many class options.

[erikun]

1. No grid
I know that I can run Pathfinder/3.5 without a grid, and I have. But its not the same as playing a system designed with that in mind in the first place. I have come to DETEST the grid, 5 ft steps, AoO, and everything about it. I can just feel the partition between roleplay and combat in my player's minds once combat starts and I hate how I have to run monsters and creatures with 2 intelligence as hyper tactical just to keep up with the metagaming that the grid allows. There are good qualities to a grid but I am looking for a system that can be run well without it.

Playing completely without a grid is a massive pain, probably moreso than you might realize. Iron Kingdoms doesn't use a grid at all, and I hope you have a good measuring tape because it uses miniatures movement instead. Also, there are a large number of grid-movement systems which don't get into 5ft-steps, AoOs, and everything else about technical movement. That is primarily a D&D invention, and not something you'll find in any other system.

If you want an abstract grid, Fate Core uses "regions" rather than tiles. A character might be in the front yard, or the living room, or hiding away in the closet. There's just obstacles between areas and stuff in the area (such as crates or something) which affects how people might move through it. Different regions are divided up however makes the most sense: the living room is probably one region because anyone in the living room can likely fight anyone else, but a large open warehouse could be multiple regions because it takes time to run across the room to hit another person.

2. Smooth and Fast combat
Pathfinder is so crunchy its insane. Coupled with rampant tactical deliberating, simple decisions about when the barbarian is going to charge in can take 5 or 6 whole minutes! That is ridiculous and I hate it with a passion. I want combat that is light and flowing, that encourages loose narrative flow rather than hunkering around like generals.

Combat is going to be a tossup between complex technical combat which allows players to do fancy things, and simply rolling a die with modifiers to see who came out on top. Sure, there is some middle ground. And there is always improv with the abstract combat systems - stating that your roll indicates your character leaping off a table to attack a combatant from above. But in general, a combat system will either have a bunch of mechanical details - making player choices matter, and increasing analysis paralysis as a result - or a combat system will abstract the combat down to a set of rolls to determine general overall victory. The later tends to favor more proactive players, who will come up with their own ideas of what happened. Non-proactive players tend to just turn it into "I roll and win the fight" because the dice and results don't really indicate what happened.

Just look for light-combat systems, or abstract combat systems, if that is what you are interested in.

3. Character classes
I do still want character classes, I know a lot of systems dont use them but I do like them and the structure that they provide, I dont yet feel comfortable venturing beyond them and I definitely dont think my players will either. Another must is that the classes are "relatively" balanced and that there is no ridiculous kind of power imbalance like in Pathfinder/3.5. I really dislike that because it stifles player creativity. Its actually kind of appalling in my opinion that people dont even care how grossly imbalanced the system is. I dont need uber balance, but more than the wizard gods and monk peasants of pf/35 would be nice.

I think you might be a bit stuck here, or at least quite limited. Note that a lot of systems might not have classes per se, but they do have "starting packages" of example characters which are basically character classes. From there the players can just buff up the skills they prioritize or expand as desired. There is no class that gets leveled up in these cases, but it is fairly obvious what a character is good at and what they should be training.

4. D20
I would prefer to stay in a D20 system because its all me and my players know, and as I said before I'm not looking for them to just reject my system change entirely. I think a D20 system will be a good way to open them up.

Do you want the d20 System, or just a system which makes use of the d20 die?

Because if you want a d20 System, then I'm afraid most of my advice is getting tossed out the window. d20 System is defined by its grid combat, complex combat actions, etc. Mutants & Masterminds is just about the only d20 System which avoids most of this, thanks primarily to basically being a point-buy superhero system stapled over top of the d20 mechanics. If you're looking for something different but insisting on the d20 System, I would certainly recommend M&M.

If you just mean using a d20 die, then you have a lot more options. Heck, you could even look at any d100 or d% systems, just dividing the relevant numbers by 5, and using a d20 for rolls.

5. Not crunchy gameplay, but varied options
I did say that I dont want/like hyper crunchy gameplay and tactics but I and my players do enjoy a fairly varied and diverse set of character creation options. They do like choice a lot and so do I, Im not looking for some super sparse ultra freeform system because I just dont think we want that lack of structure and we do enjoy interesting character options.

This is going to depend on a lot of factors, including how much your players are fine with coming up with their own material. Ironically, I've seen players paralyzed with indecision by most of those ultra-freeform systems, because "come up with an idea and list the stats" is just too wide of an option for them to work with. They were prepared to sit down and look over a list, picking the most interesting one. They weren't prepared to sit down and start drafting character story ideas.

6. Fantasy
This one is a little less mandatory as I am into lots of different kinds of genres of imagination, but generally I think it would be good to stick to sense of classic fantasy or at least something similar.

This ended up being a long post, so I'll stick a TL;DR
Looking for a fast combat, gridless, D20 fantasy system with character classes and varied character options

Thanks and I eagerly await your suggestions.

Fair enough. There are a lot of fantasy options, although they don't necessarily work with your above qualifications. Savage World is a fantasy setting, much like a cleaner and faster D&D, but it uses various sized dice (d6, d8, d10, d12) for rolls rather than the d20. RuneQuest has a very detailed setting and combat is not as finicky as D&D, but it does have its own quirks (HP per body area) and can be overly detailed, uses d100 and somewhat unusual progression in some versions. Burning Wheel is rather interesting in its focus - it asks the GM to focus on challenging players and their characters' values - and has mechanics for stuff like immediate character reactions, character contacts, and their goals in life. Rolls are resolved based off a d6 dice pool, and progress is accomplished by testing skills (after a certain number of successes/failures at a skill, it levels up).

Iron Kingdoms, mentioned above, is a fairly D&D-like fantasy world but with steampunk-ish weapons and mechanized vehicles. The game has classes and levels in classes, along with measurement-based movement which involves some surprisingly tactical combat, if you think the grid is relevant in that. The biggest concern is that characters are mostly locked into their class from character creation, with limited chance to vary things up, so your players might be bothered by the lack of options. Ironically, older editions of D&D (AD&D, BECMI, or retroclones) might fit your requirements quite well, especially with avoiding the worst parts of D&D3e combat.

I'm not really familiar with these game systems or settings, but: Shadows of Esteren is a gothic horror medieval roleplaying game. Legend of the Five Rings is a feudal Japanese setting that uses d10 dice pools, but with one stat determining how many dice you roll, and a differnet stat determining how many you keep - it also assumes the players will play samurai following the laws of their feudal lord, rather than running around renegades.

[Mutazoia]

Personally, I would suggest throwing D20 out the window (or at leas shelving it for a while) and giving the D6 system a try. The most popular version is WEG's Star Wars RPG, but they have made a generic version with fantasy rules. It's a fast paced, easy to learn system so there won't be a huge learning curve.

As somebody already pointed out, if you are going to insist with sticking to the D20 system, your going to be shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to choices. D20 is D20 is D20. All you are really doing by swapping out D&D/Pathfinder for another D20 system, is scraping the stickers off.

[Satinavian]

I would throw in Dungeonslayers (simple non grid combat, classes, fantasy) and TDE (gridless, fantasy, varied character options) but i don't know a real D20-system which has everything you want. It is just a little too many criteria.

[Garimeth]

13th Age!

13th Age!

13th Age!

Seriously, it is exactly what you are looking for! It hits all your wickets, and its a spiritual successor to DnD, so it will have some familiarity. There is an SRD, and you only need the core book to play/run the game, though I'd get 13 True Ways also. It was made by the lead designers of both 3e and 4e. Check it out and let me know what you think!

There is no grid, there is only engaged (fighting something) nearby (can reach with one move) and far away (can reach with two moves). It is an actual d20 game with all the classes you are familiar with, combat is faster and more balanced. The only thing I dislike is how they handle ritual magic, so I just house rule that the DnD spell list, or certain spells, are available for ritual casting. It is also super easy to homebrew for.

[Trask]

Lots of good responses here

1. Good point about the d20 system vs die. I think just using the die would be ok but I mostly say that because my players are extremely "conservative" as it were. One of them literally thinks that 3.5 is the greatest ttrpg ever made. I think just them seeing a d20 die would make the transition more easy.

2. I apologize if my criteria is too limiting, I'm just now starting to realize how it is. I would say that I suppose I can use the grid/physical representation but ONLY if I can move minis in a general way such as "closer" or "no its too far" and not having to count squares.

3. Thanks for the suggestions about 13th age and Dungeonslayers I will check them both out.

4. Erikun made a good point about the differences between technical and abstract combat. My players are not extremely go-getting, and I think this is because 3.5 is all they know. However my goal is to try and break them out of the rules mindset and think more creatively with their combat moves, and I think a lighter more free form combat system will help with that.

5. As for the 5e suggestions I actually managed to play, and DM a 5e one shot just last week and it was better than I expected. The combat was rather light and fast, but I felt that the existence of AoO and precise distance measurements made it a little constraining, although i'd be willing to use a map if I just didnt have to count squares which seemed like it could be easy enough.

[Traziremus]

What D&D did you play? AD&D and D&D Next (Fifth Edition) perfectly fit what you are wanting to do. Fifth Edition was made to be used without a grid and has lots of variant rules in the DMG you can use to speed sthings up and make everything more fluid, it is essentially AD&D with some stuff added from "new" D&D games.

[D+1]

Look at any edition prior to 3rd. May not float your boat but they DO have everything you're asking for.

[BayardSPSR]

Dungeon world definitely sounds like it'll be a little too "radical" for my group

Dungeon World too radical??? Then you're not going to have many options at all; you're basically asking for "D&D, but not." As people have said, 5e might be your best bet. You could also start looking at all the old-school re-releases, but those sound like a step backwards for your preferences.

[2D8HP]

You might like these rules

[Trask]

Dungeon World too radical??? Then you're not going to have many options at all; you're basically asking for "D&D, but not." As people have said, 5e might be your best bet. You could also start looking at all the old-school re-releases, but those sound like a step backwards for your preferences.

? I dont think thats an unreasonable thing to say. Its a game entirely dictated by narrative flow that requires a large amount of player and GM creativity. It sounds fun but it is a LARGE departure from Pathfinder.

[Vitruviansquid]

I know you said your players are very conservative, but consider this:

If you give your players something close to their favored system, it invites comparisons like "Hey! This part of the game is close to 3.5, only worse!" and the ol' "Why are we playing this... when we could just be playing DnD 3.5!"

But if you double down on difference, you dissuade such comparisons.

[BayardSPSR]

? I dont think thats an unreasonable thing to say. Its a game entirely dictated by narrative flow that requires a large amount of player and GM creativity. It sounds fun but it is a LARGE departure from Pathfinder.

Sorry for exaggerating - my point is more that in my experience, Dungeon World is the RPG most similar to the D&D franchise that I've ever played.