Spheres of Power: War Handbook Open Beta

[EldritchWeaver]

I'm curious to hear if there is anything people think should be removed from the book (it's a little long). I know some people don't like the Iron Mage, and the Keening tradition didn't come out the way I hoped, a few people seem concerned about the Battle Hymn boon, and the Bonded Blade has little to do with the subject matter of the book.

The Iron Mage seems to be an equal trade to turn an incanter into a cleric. So unless the cleric is nerfed for being too strong, I don't see a big problem. You could simply reskin the cleric to achieve the same result (basically replace Death/Life sphere specialization with War sphere and consider domains as pre-chosen specializations). Not sure, what I would actually remove though. Sometimes you have enough material to fill two books.

[A.J.Gibson]

let's say I want to use enchantment sphere to give party tank some speed and divisive totem effect can I use tribal mark to do both as same action by turning divisive totem to enchantment and while adding another enchantment to party tank

You'd have to do it as two actions. Also, a divisive totem wouldn't work because it effects enemies within the totem, and when you make it an enchantment, only the person enchanted is considered inside the totem. You could turn a divisive totem into a totemic aura, however.

[khadgar567]

You'd have to do it as two actions. Also, a divisive totem wouldn't work because it effects enemies within the totem, and when you make it an enchantment, only the person enchanted is considered inside the totem. You could turn a divisive totem into a totemic aura, however.

thanks so we need spell crafting rules after all for sphere system for divisive totem its just random choice for example

[A.J.Gibson]

The Iron Mage seems to be an equal trade to turn an incanter into a cleric. So unless the cleric is nerfed for being too strong, I don't see a big problem. You could simply reskin the cleric to achieve the same result (basically replace Death/Life sphere specialization with War sphere and consider domains as pre-chosen specializations). Not sure, what I would actually remove though. Sometimes you have enough material to fill two books.

Yes, the Iron Mage is basically the cleric version of the Incanter. There was some concern over whether it was necessary to have the class when the Combat tradition Hedgewitch exists, and whether I should allow the Iron Mage to steal the fighter's best features. Someone also objected to the Mystic Grace.

[meemaas]

An update: the War book is still in playtesting. There has been a lot of polishing here and there, with major changes to the Bonded Blade and Warmonger archetypes, the Keening tradition, some Armorist arsenal tricks, and several talents and feats. I've responded to almost ever comment made (a few I would like to hear from more people from).

I'm curious to hear if there is anything people think should be removed from the book (it's a little long). I know some people don't like the Iron Mage, and the Keening tradition didn't come out the way I hoped, a few people seem concerned about the Battle Hymn boon, and the Bonded Blade has little to do with the subject matter of the book.

I personally love the Iron Mage, a create your own gish style caster.

A note on the Keening tradition, I believe the Endless Regrets Hedgewitch Secret should be updated to grant the Tradition Power (for five rounds, plus five for each iteration), seeing as how you have the Amateur Secret available now. You should pull out the wording from the original book with the various secrets to ensure consistency.

On the Battle Hymn boon, it does seem like it could arguably be pretty powerful. Maybe if you wrote a Drawback that it requires to grant it a somewhat hefty downside (like Fortified and Draining), because otherwise it seems like it could be incredibly easy to work with. I mean, most casters I make as a player have four drawbacks fairly easy (Somatic, Verbal, Magical Signs, and Focus Casting), swapping for a skilled casting in exchange for no longer needing a mental stat seems like an easy pick even as a pure Incanter.

[A.J.Gibson]

I personally love the Iron Mage, a create your own gish style caster.

A note on the Keening tradition, I believe the Endless Regrets Hedgewitch Secret should be updated to grant the Tradition Power (for five rounds, plus five for each iteration), seeing as how you have the Amateur Secret available now. You should pull out the wording from the original book with the various secrets to ensure consistency.

On the Battle Hymn boon, it does seem like it could arguably be pretty powerful. Maybe if you wrote a Drawback that it requires to grant it a somewhat hefty downside (like Fortified and Draining), because otherwise it seems like it could be incredibly easy to work with. I mean, most casters I make as a player have four drawbacks fairly easy (Somatic, Verbal, Magical Signs, and Focus Casting), swapping for a skilled casting in exchange for no longer needing a mental stat seems like an easy pick even as a pure Incanter.

I just revised the Keening tradition again to try and make it work better with totems and also to make that change to Endless Regrets.

Battle Hymn already requires skilled casting (perform), perhaps adding somatic casting?

[meemaas]

I just revised the Keening tradition again to try and make it work better with totems and also to make that change to Endless Regrets.

Battle Hymn already requires skilled casting (perform), perhaps adding somatic casting?

Love the change to the Keening tradition, although that brings up a suggestion in regards to that. Maybe a secret to allow Totems attached to a Lamentation to function at full caster level?

Edit: Just found that you had made that decision yourself, lol.

As for Battle Hymn, Somatic Casting is already pretty much guaranteed to be a pick for anyone using Battle Hymn, there's just no reason not to when you're casting off of Dex to begin with, therefore not wearing Heavy Armor, and likely not wearing Medium either.

It just doesn't seem like much of a drawback to require Somatic Casting for this. I'd suggest either Verbal Casting or Focus Casting, maybe even allowing a choice between the two based on the type of Perform chosen. Obviously that'll require GM adjudication more than anything else, and I'm unsure of the best way to word it. Also leaves a gray area with something like Perform (Dance), but I'm sure we can figure out some way to do it.

[A.J.Gibson]

As for Battle Hymn, Somatic Casting is already pretty much guaranteed to be a pick for anyone using Battle Hymn, there's just no reason not to when you're casting off of Dex to begin with, therefore not wearing Heavy Armor, and likely not wearing Medium either.

It just doesn't seem like much of a drawback to require Somatic Casting for this. I'd suggest either Verbal Casting or Focus Casting, maybe even allowing a choice between the two based on the type of Perform chosen. Obviously that'll require GM adjudication more than anything else, and I'm unsure of the best way to word it. Also leaves a gray area with something like Perform (Dance), but I'm sure we can figure out some way to do it.

I could have sworn I responded to this already.

Anyways, I'd love to hear suggestions on what a proper drawback to require could be. Somatic makes logical sense, but as you said, anyone planning to go all Dex will probably forsake armor anyways. I was thinking maybe Extended Casting (to represent the time it takes to perform the skilled casting skill).

The alternative is dumping the boon. And probably dump formulaic casting at the same time.

[meemaas]

I could have sworn I responded to this already.

Anyways, I'd love to hear suggestions on what a proper drawback to require could be. Somatic makes logical sense, but as you said, anyone planning to go all Dex will probably forsake armor anyways. I was thinking maybe Extended Casting (to represent the time it takes to perform the skilled casting skill).

The alternative is dumping the boon. And probably dump formulaic casting at the same time.

I think honestly, that Extended Casting might be the best choice, actually. It gives an honest downside to getting Battle Hymn that can't just be passed with a little optimization, and brings it in line with the Fortified Casting and it's Drawback.

However, that may make Battle Hymn seem unplayable, or relegate it to Gish type casters that just want to stack up some long duration Aegii and similar effects.

An alternative is to write a special Drawback just for Battle Hymn, but I know you're trying to dial back a bit on that, and that wouldn't be the best idea for that reason.

Formulaic Casting isn't a bad idea to be honest, it just doesn't seem like it's suitable for THIS book. Battle Hymn definitely is.

[A.J.Gibson]

I think honestly, that Extended Casting might be the best choice, actually. It gives an honest downside to getting Battle Hymn that can't just be passed with a little optimization, and brings it in line with the Fortified Casting and it's Drawback.

However, that may make Battle Hymn seem unplayable, or relegate it to Gish type casters that just want to stack up some long duration Aegii and similar effects.

An alternative is to write a special Drawback just for Battle Hymn, but I know you're trying to dial back a bit on that, and that wouldn't be the best idea for that reason.

Formulaic Casting isn't a bad idea to be honest, it just doesn't seem like it's suitable for THIS book. Battle Hymn definitely is.

A custom drawback isn't out of the question, but it would have to be something that appropriately balances having a high dexterity. Thing is, Dex is used for so many things...

I did have one thought: each time a sphere ability is used, the caster gains Vulnerability 1 (cumulative). So eventually you better be avoiding every point of damage or you're going to get one-shoted.

[meemaas]

A custom drawback isn't out of the question, but it would have to be something that appropriately balances having a high dexterity. Thing is, Dex is used for so many things...

I did have one thought: each time a sphere ability is used, the caster gains Vulnerability 1 (cumulative). So eventually you better be avoiding every point of damage or you're going to get one-shoted.

I like the idea, but it seems dangerous. Mind you, Vulnerability isn't a mechanic that functions like that, you'd have to create a new condition to make it work that way, since this is Vulnerability quoted below.

Vulnerabilities (Ex or Su)

A creature with vulnerabilities takes half again as much damage (+50%) from a specific energy type, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed or if the save is a success or failure. Creatures with a vulnerability that is not an energy type instead take a –4 penalty on saves against spells and effects that cause or use the listed vulnerability (such as spells with the light descriptor). Some creatures might suffer additional effects, as noted in their descriptions.

That does seem like a dangerous penalty, and a real balancing factor that could work with it, but I think we should hear some opinions from other people before you settle on it.

[A.J.Gibson]

I discussed it with the other spheres writers, and the general consensus is that it's too hard to balance. Even the original author was nervous. So I've decided to cut it.

I'm also cutting Formulaic Casting. It's simply in the wrong book. Hopefully I'll have a chance to use it elsewhere, but I honestly don't think it's that great a loss.

I do like the 'escalating vulnerability' idea, however. Could be a cool alternative to the thaumaturge's backlash mechanic - instead of -1 to all d20 rolls, enemies get +1 to damage you.

[meemaas]

Sounds like something to keep in mind for a future archetype.

[A.J.Gibson]

So now I'm looking to see if any other archetypes need to be chopped. Most notably:
-the Bonded Blade barely has anything to do with the book at all, it originally had more to do with War, but it evolved in a different direction than I expected
-the Divine Heretic is looking somewhat redundant with the Warmonger and Iron Mage around, though it would be weird to have a War book without a Warpriest
-the Forward Observer strikes me as kinda meh, though the fact there is no sphere investigator and the only other investigator archetype is the Psyforensic makes it a little more appealing

[A.J.Gibson]

Alteration came out today, and it looks like War is going to be next. Feedback is still welcome; there was a lot of polishing just last week.

[Newbosauras]

So first off, awesome job, this took war from my least favorite sphere as a DM, to easily the core of one of the next one-shot I'm writing (squad based tactical infiltration w/ premade PCs). Momentum, mandates, and squadrons are fantastic abilities for 4-6 person groups in a way that the base sphere wasn't.

I don't have too many concerns or suggestions all things considered, and I'm afraid I'm not much of a proofreader. The only major thing I have considered is the idea of having a mandate that triggers an effect on completing a certain task, i.e.

Bloodthirst (Mandate)
(su) When creating this mandate designate a target enemy within medium range. If either member of this mandate deals lethal damage to this target, both members are healed for 1d8 hp per 2 caster levels. In addition their next attack gains a +20 bonus on it's attack rolls.

or

CAPTURE! (Mandate)
(su) When creating this mandate designate a target item or creature of special importance (a banner, or insignia or commander for example). Both members of this mandate gain +10 movement speed when moving towards the target, and +2 competence bonus on attack, CMD, or sleight of hand rolls to acquire the item or knockout the creature. If either member of this mandate captures this item (by picking up the item, or restraining or knocking out the creature), all allied creatures in medium range gain a +4 morale bonus on all attack, damage, or saving rolls as well as AC and CMD.

Sure these examples are probably a touch overpowered (combined true strike + healing) but I do like the idea of certain mandates triggering on completion of a particular task, rather than in response to a particular action.

In any case it's probably too late in the process to start adding things. I sincerely look forward to building a war sphere focused set of pregenerated characters. Honestly I think the idea of building a really properly cohesive squadron using this handbook is the most exciting thing I've had to look forward to in Pathfinder for a while. Speeeaking of which, any timeline on release for the Handbook?

[EldritchWeaver]

Sure these examples are probably a touch overpowered (combined true strike + healing) but I do like the idea of certain mandates triggering on completion of a particular task, rather than in response to a particular action.

They are overpowered. Bloodthirst is not only combining attacking with healing, it ensures that once you hit, you always hit afterwards unless rolling a 1. Also this not restricted to one single attack per round. And the healing is on par with a dedicated healer, who needs to invest a large part of his magic talents, where this requires just one talent. The Silver Crane discipline is the closest one to this effect and it requires recovering maneuvers in-between as well as balancing factor. CAPTURE! is less powerful compared to Bloodthirst but still it provides a buff to far too many things at once.

[Newbosauras]

Definitely a fair point, smaller more static bonuses would be more appropriate (i.e. heal 1d8+CL, gain a competence bonus equal to the mandate creator's casting modifier on your next attack roll). The +20 on attack rolls was an error, it should have read gains +20 on it's next attack roll (a la true strike). The tricky part is you need to increase the reward to balance out the fact that you need to fully complete a task to gain the bonus (frankly there would probably have to be a "the target must have equal to or greater than the caster's HD to prevent it from simply being targeted on the lowliest mook available"), rather than gaining it more or less instantaneously. CAPTURE! was actually just a misreading of one of the armor enchants from the handbook, and should have been choose one of those options for a +4 morale bonus.

Mostly though I was curious mostly about what people thought about certain mandates triggering on completing an objective, rather than a specific action?

[A.J.Gibson]

I don't have too many concerns or suggestions all things considered, and I'm afraid I'm not much of a proofreader. The only major thing I have considered is the idea of having a mandate that triggers an effect on completing a certain task, i.e.

Bloodthirst (Mandate)
(su) When creating this mandate designate a target enemy within medium range. If either member of this mandate deals lethal damage to this target, both members are healed for 1d8 hp per 2 caster levels. In addition their next attack gains a +20 bonus on it's attack rolls.

or

CAPTURE! (Mandate)
(su) When creating this mandate designate a target item or creature of special importance (a banner, or insignia or commander for example). Both members of this mandate gain +10 movement speed when moving towards the target, and +2 competence bonus on attack, CMD, or sleight of hand rolls to acquire the item or knockout the creature. If either member of this mandate captures this item (by picking up the item, or restraining or knocking out the creature), all allied creatures in medium range gain a +4 morale bonus on all attack, damage, or saving rolls as well as AC and CMD.

Sure these examples are probably a touch overpowered (combined true strike + healing) but I do like the idea of certain mandates triggering on completion of a particular task, rather than in response to a particular action.

In any case it's probably too late in the process to start adding things. I sincerely look forward to building a war sphere focused set of pregenerated characters. Honestly I think the idea of building a really properly cohesive squadron using this handbook is the most exciting thing I've had to look forward to in Pathfinder for a while. Speeeaking of which, any timeline on release for the Handbook?

The idea of a boost that get re-triggered by hitting some enemy is solid, and could be done a number of ways - I could see a symbiat feat chain working off this, with an ally gaining some sort of reward whenever they hit the target of their Battlefield Relay feature. It's not really a mandate any more though, it's something new. And yes, I'm trying to avoid adding more new stuff if I can.

War is next in line to be published. I'm mostly waiting on Adam; I don't know when this thing will go out, but I expect it this year.

[A.J.Gibson]

As War gets closer to final publication, a number of changes have occurred. For those who are interested, I'll summarize the major changes here:

The Iron Mage has been converted into a hedgewitch archetype. Even though it was basically a cleric, the amount of complaining about clerics in general became a real problem. The new version uses a mechanic similar to Gunslinger Grit, where the Iron Mage receives numerous War sphere tricks as they level, such as being able to move allies who are mandated together and rallying people without using their immediate action.

The Combat Engineer Alchemist archetype has been revised. They still use bombs to deliver totems, but the totems no longer attach to people. Before, they were expected to use their abilities to attach debuffing totems to enemies, but that hasn't worked out well, so now they use bombs to deliver totems, with bonus abilities they can choose from when they do so, such as being able to 'throw' their totem, or increasing the radius of the totem.

The War Hero fighter archetype has been revised. It's original ability of creating a totemic aura made more sense as a feat, so now anyone can take it. The War Hero itself now has a mechanic where they gain totemic auras automatically when they are successful in battle.

A few other talents have been changed. The Ghost Sovereign has had some of their higher level abilities fixed. The WardMage has also been clarified a bit. The Keening Hedgewitch tradition has been dropped due to it being too ****ing hard to balance. Imbued Weapon (the feat that gives you your casting stat to a weapon) has been dropped in favor of specific powers for specific classes that do the same. Mystic Assault continues to get written over and over again until I get it right.

[A.J.Gibson]

War Handbook should be wrapped up this week, so any final comments should be made in the next day or so.

[Warriorking9001]

it's an open beta but google drives wanted a request

[digiman619]

it's an open beta but google drives wanted a request

That's because it's already out.