MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

[ZeroL]

It certainly suggests that he knows something, but I still object to jumping from there to "he counted on all the members of the Order knowing what the creature was on sight."

Except, if MitD were a Protean, there would be no guarantee that his emergence would have the effect on the heroes Xykon was aiming for. His goal was to shock and terrify them with just the appearance of MitD.

[Kish]

Okay, now you seem to be under the impression the Protean looks like one creature, and then one other creature, and then one other creature. A boiling mass of features from a whole lot of creatures is plenty shocking, and for that matter plenty recognizable, even if no one has enough of the relevant Knowledge skill to know that it's an epic-level creature.

[DaggerPen]

Mark me down for Protean first and Zodar second.

And... hm. Just realized something that puts even less weight on O'Chul's assertion about "breaking the status quo" - marking extra doors would only be bad for Team Evil if the Gate is actually behind one of those doors. If not, it just means they've got less to search through. As long as MitD hasn't marked more than half, the odds are actually that the extra markings are inadvertently helpful, which shows reduced accuracy in O'Chul's reading of the actual action as a good thing.

Without derailing the thread, statistics do not work that way - check the old discussion thread for the strip for more analysis thereof.

I think that a major problem with Protean is that people recognize the MitD by looking at it, but recognizing a Protean would require watching several transformations plus extensive knowledge. Also, there is a narrative issue with it being a Protean as well, in that it would be revealed as X, but then turn into Y, and then everyone would just be confused and many wouldn't know what it was. Also, when Xykon was planning for MitD to come out of the shadows, he knew that the heroes would recognize it immediately. Also, I think it's almost certain that MitD is or resembles some kind of aniimal or beast, due to the fact that big game hunters viewed him as a prize catch and the bugbear tamer wanted to take him from Xykon, albeit jokingly. I am certain that he is a non-D&D creature from some myth, and that everyone will know what he is once they see him.

Okay, now you seem to be under the impression the Protean looks like one creature, and then one other creature, and then one other creature. A boiling mass of features from a whole lot of creatures is plenty shocking, and for that matter plenty recognizable, even if no one has enough of the relevant Knowledge skill to know that it's an epic-level creature.

As Kish said. The Protean changes appearance significantly from snapshot to snapshot, yes, but unless deliberately trying to maintain a given form, the Protean looks very distinctive in that it looks like a giant mass of boiling flesh. If the MitD steps out of the shadows in the last panel of the reveal strip and we see one static shot of a bizarre conglomeration of creature parts, every single person in the subsequent discussion thread who knows what a Protean is will go "OMG, MitD is a protean!!!!"

I'm also just going to drop this illustration of a Protean here-

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think that a major problem with Protean is that people recognize the MitD by looking at it, but recognizing a Protean would require watching several transformations plus extensive knowledge.

As Kish and DaggerPen already said, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that a protean is a shapeshifter. It is not. Not even close to one, in fact. A protean is a mass of flesh, always changing, sprouting limbs and tentacles and so on. Someone seeing one is not going to confuse it with anything else. What Xykon expected was for the heroes to be horrified by his appearance, and then have that reinforced by MitD's declaration of doom (the last part was the one he had to lower his expectations on). Nothing in how he speaks of MitD suggests he needs the heroes to know what MitD actually is, just that his appearance will be enough to make them cower.

Grey Wolf

[Complex Dragon]

While googling around for more Protean stuff, Google had some entertaining search suggestions I thought the people here might get a kick out of

On a similar note, on my quest for non-D&D monsters I was researching 'modern legends' that are no longer copyrighted. For example, Alice in Wonderland would be a prime candidate. Unfortunately, D&D has beaten me to the punch there, and the Jabberwock (besides having too many heads) has a pretty unimpressive stat block.

However, when I googled 'Bandersnatch', I got a kind of sidebar with a generated definition (though only on some of my computers, perhaps it is an experimental feature). I have no idea what the source for the following list is, but I found it slightly amusing:

Personality: Cruel, Ominous, Furious, Powerful, Hungry, Beastly, Destructive, Murderous, Subservient, Kind, Loyal, Angry, Voracious

OK, not all of them would fit MitD, but "powerful, kind, loyal, and voracious" struck me as an oddly befitting short characterization. ;-)

[Ruck]

Mark me down for Protean first and Zodar second.

And... hm. Just realized something that puts even less weight on O'Chul's assertion about "breaking the status quo" - marking extra doors would only be bad for Team Evil if the Gate is actually behind one of those doors. If not, it just means they've got less to search through. As long as MitD hasn't marked more than half, the odds are actually that the extra markings are inadvertently helpful, which shows reduced accuracy in O'Chul's reading of the actual action as a good thing.

This was discussed at length in the thread discussion for that strip, but suffice to say that anything that might screw up Team Evil's process is a win for the good guys.

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but while reading Don't Split the Party I realised that MitD says Xykon always tries to make it eat kids. Clearly, this is an Evil act. Recently, O-Chul implied that MitD's Good acts could be significant. As if MitD is neutral and malleable.

This reminded me of the Creatures from Black and White, which are naturally Neutral but can be taught Good and Evil. Could this be a clue to MitD's identity? Is there anything in D&D that this applies to?

Protean is listed as Chaotic Neutral, another point in its favor in my book.

[Shining Wrath]

This was discussed at length in the thread discussion for that strip, but suffice to say that anything that might screw up Team Evil's process is a win for the good guys.



Protean is listed as Chaotic Neutral, another point in its favor in my book.

To be precise, Xykon didn't expect MitD's appearance to shock or disgust; he expected it to remove hope. "How can you hope to win, when I have the power of this on my side?!" or words to that effect. It seems the expected effect is not "Wow what is it!" but "OMG we are so screwed - game over man!". OTOH, to support the Protean, note that during Xykon's speech MitD is saying "Try to be scary" to himself, which might mean "maintain an terrifying form out of all your possible choices".

[hamishspence]

As Kish and DaggerPen already said, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that a protean is a shapeshifter.

It can assume a shape - but it takes a move-equivalent action to hold it - and it's implied that its surface will still "boil" slightly:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm

Alter Shape (Ex)
A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes).

[Ruck]

To be precise, Xykon didn't expect MitD's appearance to shock or disgust; he expected it to remove hope. "How can you hope to win, when I have the power of this on my side?!" or words to that effect. It seems the expected effect is not "Wow what is it!" but "OMG we are so screwed - game over man!". OTOH, to support the Protean, note that during Xykon's speech MitD is saying "Try to be scary" to himself, which might mean "maintain an terrifying form out of all your possible choices".

I don't strictly disagree, but I'm uncertain as to why you quoted me given that I made no comment re: Xykon's expectations of the MitD.

[SirKazum]

I think that a major problem with Protean is that people recognize the MitD by looking at it, but recognizing a Protean would require watching several transformations plus extensive knowledge. Also, there is a narrative issue with it being a Protean as well, in that it would be revealed as X, but then turn into Y, and then everyone would just be confused and many wouldn't know what it was. Also, when Xykon was planning for MitD to come out of the shadows, he knew that the heroes would recognize it immediately. Also, I think it's almost certain that MitD is or resembles some kind of aniimal or beast, due to the fact that big game hunters viewed him as a prize catch and the bugbear tamer wanted to take him from Xykon, albeit jokingly. I am certain that he is a non-D&D creature from some myth, and that everyone will know what he is once they see him.

While I agree with the others that the Protean doesn't quite work as you seem to picture it, and may in fact be recognizable as a mass of churning flesh (in fact, right now the biggest strike against the Protean IMO is the fact that the MitD's two eyes are always the same), other than that I agree very much with your reasoning and conclusions. I do think the MitD is going to be either something from myth or something from popular culture - provisionally, I'm thinking Godzilla Jr., but I do recognize the problems with that (escape scene and potential copyright issues), so I'm still looking for better candidates along those lines myself.

[Shining Wrath]

I don't strictly disagree, but I'm uncertain as to why you quoted me given that I made no comment re: Xykon's expectations of the MitD.

I'm not sure how that happened, either. Loose nut attached to keyboard seems most likely.

EDIT:

We have two contradictory pieces of information on the recognition of MitD. From SoD, we know that MitD is unrecognizable for a circus crowd and also disgusting. From early strips with Xykon, we know that he expected the mere sight of MitD to intimidate experienced adventurers. As additional information we know that Redcloak and Oona believe they know what MitD is from seeing him, as did the SBGH. And O-Chul has a theory, probably developed in concert with a most learned scribe.

I think what we're looking for is a monster whose rarity / legendary status is in the middle ground, where experienced adventurers know what they are seeing, but non-adventurers do not. I think the Protean, ANB, Hunting Horror, Slaad, and Uvuudaum fall into this category; I think the Carbosilicate Amorph and Glabrezu do not, at different ends. Oona and the OotS should not have heard of a CSA, as those are from a completely different "universe" than D&D and OotS. The Glabrezu, OTOH, probably shows up in stained glass windows and illuminated manuscripts depicting the horrors of the Abyss and common folk would likely recognize it as a demon.

[Keltest]

For my part, I don't think "unrecognizable to random village peasants" tells us a lot. Village peasants are not known for their wide range of knowledge outside of their specific trades.

[SirKazum]

For my part, I don't think "unrecognizable to random village peasants" tells us a lot. Village peasants are not known for their wide range of knowledge outside of their specific trades.

Which is probably why there's someone who looks like a wizard in that scene; to tell us "it's not just random village peasants, someone who looks likely to have a broad range of academic knowledge says he doesn't recognize it". Of course, as Rich has shown in the "whether clerics know how vampires really work" question, you can't trust the knowledge of people not specialized in Knowledge skills quite that far, but IMO that character seems to indicate "even people who know a bit about weird stuff have difficulty identifying this creature". So, while not necessarily extremely obscure, it should be at least not immediately recognizable to most low-level adventurers. Also, FWIW, I think it's perfectly possible for a creature to look strong or menacing enough to strike fear into moderately-experienced adventurers who have no idea what it is, so maybe Xykon's expectations about how the OOTS will react doesn't mean much either way.

[Bestigle]

O
However, when I googled 'Bandersnatch', I got a kind of sidebar with a generated definition (though only on some of my computers, perhaps it is an experimental feature). I have no idea what the source for the following list is, but I found it slightly amusing:

OK, not all of them would fit MitD, but "powerful, kind, loyal, and voracious" struck me as an oddly befitting short characterization. ;-)

Not sure why my computer won't quote the article, but those traits are likely from the Jabberwock poem itself. Mostly fruminous, anyway. I've got my Pathfinder bestiary on-hand at the moment, and it labels fruminous bandersnatches as a variant of the normal variety. I don't think those are so much character traits as they are specific subspecies of bandersnatches (admittedly, I only play Pathfinder nowadays, so I'm really rusty on the differences between it and DnD).

Also, spent about five minutes before I realized that DnD's Jabberwock varies wildly from Pathfinder's. Whoops.

[Shining Wrath]

Xykon himself doesn't have the best Knowledge skills - although to get Epic Spells he has to have a lot of ranks in Arcana. So looking at the listed creatures under 3a.

• ANB - clearly powerful. Big, muscular, fanged. Even if not recognized, scary. Pass
• Glabrezu: As I said, I'd expect even commoners to recognize it as a demon Fail
• Hagunemnon (Protean): By definition not necessarily immediately recognizable and not necessarily in a frightening form. If Identified, though, scary as hell (CR 29). Possible
• Hunting Horror: Like ANB, you don't have to recognize it to see it as scary. Pass
• CSA: looks like a pile of poo. If recognized, scary. If not, would inspire caution but not fear. Possible
• Slaad: Big and ugly, but not really high enough CR to scare Roy et al. Not sure if one could eat Redcloak. Fail
• Uvuudaum: Scary looking; if recognized, CR 27. Pass

[rweird]

Technically, recognizing a Glabrezu would be knowledge (the planes), not Arcana. Protean would be dungeoneering. Slaads would be the planes, the ones in question are CR 21 and 24, IIRC (possibly higher), so would be scary (and I'm pretty sure they are large sized, and have a bite attack). Uvuuvdaum is also the planes. The ANB is a magical beast, and therefore (arcana), and assuming Xykon doesn't have a negative Int score, he should be able to pass the knowledge check to recognize it pretty much automatically (although narrative is above rules on this case).

As the other two don't come from D&D, I really can't say how they'd be recognized in D&D forms (if Hunting Horror is an outsider, it'd be the planes, although lovecraftian stuff is often forbidden lore, if that variant is included).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Glabrezu: As I said, I'd expect even commoners to recognize it as a demon

I disagree. I do not believe the Glabrezu looks enough like a stereotypical demon to be easily recognised as one.

GW

[dancrilis]

• Slaad: Big and ugly, but not really high enough CR to scare Roy et al. Not sure if one could eat Redcloak. Fail

I don't think it is a Slaad, but a White or Black Slaad would make very short work of a party of mid-level adventurers (hell implosion alone would likely kill one a round) if it wanted to be lazy and it can spit powerword kills all day long.
And yes would have made short work of Redcloak also (probably still would).

[Irish Musician]

I disagree. I do not believe the Glabrezu looks enough like a stereotypical demon to be easily recognised as one.

GW

Yeah, but to a common person, it does....at least in my opinion. I mean its large, its got claws, big, pointy teeth, horns, glowing eyes, spikes, giant, weird feet......to the average person I think the first think they'd go to was "demon" or "devil". Even though it doesn't look like a "typical demon", it looks enough like one for people's scared minds to jump to that first.

[Crusher]

Is there any fluff anywhere suggesting Proteans get bigger? Oona's comments about how she expects it to get a lot bigger are weighing on me a bit re: Glaabrezu's and Proteans. One way of looking at it is whether a species can "advance". That might necessarily mean more size, but many (most?) creatures that are able to do gain size as well after a certain point.

I don't have access to books atm, but I thought I recalled that Proteans didn't advance or otherwise get bigger which would be a problem. Glabrezu's too. I'm not changing my vote yet or anything (and I disagree that Glabrezu's look much like stereotypical demons. I mean, other than the glowing eyes those characteristics describe dragons perfectly too (and some dragons have glowing eyes), and most would not see a dragon and immediately think "demon) but knowing that Proteans or Glabrezus can advance would at least somewhat address the "gaining size" point.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is there any fluff anywhere suggesting Proteans get bigger?

A protean is large in size. MitD is medium. Therefore, he should get larger.

GW

[dancrilis]

I don't have access to books atm, but I thought I recalled that Proteans didn't advance or otherwise get bigger which would be a problem. Glabrezu's too. I'm not changing my vote yet or anything (and I disagree that Glabrezu's look much like stereotypical demons. I mean, other than the glowing eyes those characteristics describe dragons perfectly too (and some dragons have glowing eyes), and most would not see a dragon and immediately think "demon) but knowing that Proteans or Glabrezus can advance would at least somewhat address the "gaining size" point.

Both can:
Hagunemnon (Protean) Advancement: 45-59 HD (Large); 60-74 HD (Huge); 75-89 HD (Huge)
Glabrezu Advancement: 13-18 HD (Huge); 19-36 HD (Gargantuan)

[Keltest]

A protean is large in size. MitD is medium. Therefore, he should get larger.

GW

It means he is below typical size for a protean. That does not necessarily equate to incomplete growth. Oona seems to think it does, but given that the MITD has not grown at all in the 30+ in-comic years we have seen him, I am hesitant to take her word for it. I am fairly confidant in saying that if the MITD is going to grow at this point, it will be because of a property of the monster that specifically causes it to grow under certain conditions, not because of relative youth.

[Mad Humanist]

Has anybody considered the possibility that the umbrella makes the MitD appear medium-sized, when in fact he is already Large?

[Kish]

The current thread standards don't rule out the possibility that he's Large--just that he's Huge (minimum weight of 2 tons unless he's specifically made of something less dense than meat, minimum height or length of 16 feet) or larger.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Has anybody considered the possibility that the umbrella makes the MitD appear medium-sized, when in fact he is already Large?

How would the umbrella even do that? Also, there are times when he is not under the umbrella (e.g. the rope scene) and his size (as measured by the height of his eyes) remains effectively identical.

GW

[Ron Miel]

How would the umbrella even do that?
GW

Like a bag of holding?

Items that fit a big object into a small space are pretty common in D&D, aren't they?

[dancrilis]

How would the umbrella even do that?

An umbrella of reduce person/animal might work.

Also, there are times when he is not under the umbrella (e.g. the rope scene) and his size (as measured by the height of his eyes) remains effectively identical.

GW

I am unsure about that here panel 7 his eyes are above the hobgoblins head (and looking down in panel 11 they would still be above if looking straight forward) where here here panel 1 they are level with Redcloak's eyes (who is roughly equal to the goblin standing beside him).

Could be nothing or the monster might crouch under the umbrella etc, but might also be a clue.

[Hardcore]

This does describe MitD:

Imentesh (SR 21): These heralds of chaos often heed the call of binders who wish to utilize the power of proteans. In conversation they are often talkative, seemingly helpful, and polite, but they are always plotting their escape in order to unleash as much chaos as possible.

I recall he responded to the question why he did not break out of the box, with "Sure, if you want to be rude about it".

Also:

imenteshes are the proteans most likely to be encountered outside of Limbo.

Sign me up for Imentesh.

[The Artisan]

How would the umbrella even do that? GW

It's bigger on the underside :P The MiTD is a Timelord!