MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

[littlebum2002]

...

This feels like it's answering something, but neither my post nor durron597's mentions Slaads, talking, jungles or the SBGH. I'm confused.

Still, I was under the impression that slaads have Environment: Any and can speak common, can't they? They aren't SRD, so I 'm having trouble finding a monster sheet right now.

GW

I was just voicing my support for the Slaad, however, perhaps I was mistaken? I assumed since they were Outsiders they were not usually found on the Material Plane, but it's been awhile since I've played so I'm probably wrong.

[Darth Paul]

The source I've been referencing says "any land and underground" for environment, so not really any help to the SBGH scene. It doesn't list languages, but I wouldn't be surprised if Common were among them.

I do wonder whether the surprise at finding MitD there was because slaadi transitioning from Black to White forms are described as retreating into isolation... and if my theory that our friend in the darkness was captured during his transformation period is correct, then finding him in the middle of the jungle rather than a deep dark cave might have been a surprise to the SBGHs.

Here's a tidbit I never noticed before:

Alternate Form:
A white slaad can shift between its natural form and any humanoid form at will as a standard action. A white slaad can remain in humanoid form indefinately. The ability is otherwise similar to alter self cast by a 21st-level caster.

IF MitD is a White Slaad, he could be fitting under the umbrella this entire time because he's in a smaller size humanoid form. Or he could be still in his own form, but politely reducing his size category to fit under the umbrella. (This would be more typical of him, I think.)

[littlebum2002]

The source I've been referencing says "any land and underground" for environment, so not really any help to the SBGH scene. It doesn't list languages, but I wouldn't be surprised if Common were among them.

Actually that lists his environment as the towns of Blinding Speed and Epic Toughness. Since a jungle is neither of those, my point stands.

Anyway, ignoring the "speaking common" part, a Slaad is a Level 21 or 25 monster. They're not going to be common anywhere on the Material plane. Perhaps that is what they meant?

[Darth Paul]

Actually that lists his environment as the towns of Blinding Speed and Epic Toughness. Since a jungle is neither of those, my point stands.

Anyway, ignoring the "speaking common" part, a Slaad is a Level 21 or 25 monster. They're not going to be common anywhere on the Material plane. Perhaps that is what they meant?

Well spotted... Yes, your point is well made, a slaad would be rare anywhere. But the way the hunters talk about MitD, even if he's a very rare creature (which is a SBGH's stock in trade), he would be considered out of place in the jungle as opposed to somewhere else- or such was my interpretation. Like finding a walrus in the Everglades, or an Indian elephant roaming Alaska, or a puma in... a place you wouldn't expect to find a puma.

[littlebum2002]

or a puma in... a place you wouldn't expect to find a puma.

Like finding a Puma in Blood Gulch. God that reference is old.

[durron597]

Personally, 50-ish.

GW

I agree, which is why I'm sort of surprised all the major favorites don't really address the earthquake nor have high enough strength to actually accomplish it. I would posit that earthquake level strength would need to be significantly higher than what's required for throwing a person through a wall (which in all the math is suggested to be half thickness). Sub 40 is just not going to cut it, unless the earthquake is a spell.

This is why I think MitD is a Hagunemnon. Sure, his eyes don't change, but having no form all at makes a lot of sense for why his "form" needs to be kept secret. As far as disgusting? The picture from d20srd: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EP...Hagunemnon.jpg

Biggest problem is the teleport thing, but it clearly took him some time to be able to do the effect because he was talking about it for a few panels.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I agree, which is why I'm sort of surprised all the major favorites don't really address the earthquake nor have high enough strength to actually accomplish it.

Two problems with this: first, the "favourite" one, as measured by Crusher, does address it. Second, as I said, the FBS list is not "favourites". They are examples of monsters that are strong, can teleport others, are ugly enough to pull of being a circus act, can fit in the box, and can be mind controlled. Nothing less, nothing more. Why only those characteristics and not more? Because we haven't found enough monsters that can fulfill those characteristics & more. As much as I'd love to have a set of ~8 monsters who could do all of the above and also explain the earthquake, we simply don't. So WYSIWYG.

Edit:
Question for the thread, regarding the door scene. How do you guys imagine that the TE party got to the doors off the floor? Xykon flies, of course, but how did RC, Oona and MitD reach the doors not on the floor?

Because if they used some kind of mass climbing spell or the like, it would nullify the door painting scene altogether.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Two problems with this: first, the "favourite" one, as measured by Crusher, does address it. Second, as I said, the FBS list is not "favourites". They are examples of monsters that are strong, can teleport others, are ugly enough to pull of being a circus act, can fit in the box, and can be mind controlled. Nothing less, nothing more. Why only those characteristics and not more? Because we haven't found enough monsters that can fulfill those characteristics & more. As much as I'd love to have a set of ~8 monsters who could do all of the above and also explain the earthquake, we simply don't. So WYSIWYG.

Edit:
Question for the thread, regarding the door scene. How do you guys imagine that the TE party got to the doors off the floor? Xykon flies, of course, but how did RC, Oona and MitD reach the doors not on the floor?

Because if they used some kind of mass climbing spell or the like, it would nullify the door painting scene altogether.

Grey Wolf

I figured Xykon probably carried the goblinoids, assuming they didn't just bring a ladder or something.

Not that it matters, because they picked a door on the ground level this time. MITD wouldn't have had any such spell cast on him in the first place, even if he did need it to get up there, because they weren't going up there this time.

[Ruck]

Two problems with this: first, the "favourite" one, as measured by Crusher, does address it. Second, as I said, the FBS list is not "favourites". They are examples of monsters that are strong, can teleport others, are ugly enough to pull of being a circus act, can fit in the box, and can be mind controlled. Nothing less, nothing more. Why only those characteristics and not more? Because we haven't found enough monsters that can fulfill those characteristics & more. As much as I'd love to have a set of ~8 monsters who could do all of the above and also explain the earthquake, we simply don't. So WYSIWYG.

Edit:
Question for the thread, regarding the door scene. How do you guys imagine that the TE party got to the doors off the floor? Xykon flies, of course, but how did RC, Oona and MitD reach the doors not on the floor?

Because if they used some kind of mass climbing spell or the like, it would nullify the door painting scene altogether.

Grey Wolf

I can't speak for durron, but I think he meant favorite like "betting favorite"; i.e. "the monsters most likely to be correct from what we know." Not like the personal or fan favorites. (At least, that definition makes his comment make more sense.)

[Crusher]

I can't speak for durron, but I think he meant favorite like "betting favorite"; i.e. "the monsters most likely to be correct from what we know." Not like the personal or fan favorites. (At least, that definition makes his comment make more sense.)

Right, the issue is that Durron said "all the major favorites" don't have an answer, and GW is simply pointing out that the candidate that's arguably THE favorite among the favorites is in fact strong enough. So, not really "all".

Also, there's the issue that the wall-crashing bit was more or less calculated using rules. But afaik there are no rules at all for creating earthquakes. So that 50, while reasonable, is an unsupportable guess and thus not a particularly hard and fast rule.

[dragonscout]

Two problems with this: first, the "favourite" one, as measured by Crusher, does address it. Second, as I said, the FBS list is not "favourites". They are examples of monsters that are strong, can teleport others, are ugly enough to pull of being a circus act, can fit in the box, and can be mind controlled. Nothing less, nothing more. Why only those characteristics and not more? Because we haven't found enough monsters that can fulfill those characteristics & more. As much as I'd love to have a set of ~8 monsters who could do all of the above and also explain the earthquake, we simply don't. So WYSIWYG.

Edit:
Question for the thread, regarding the door scene. How do you guys imagine that the TE party got to the doors off the floor? Xykon flies, of course, but how did RC, Oona and MitD reach the doors not on the floor?

Because if they used some kind of mass climbing spell or the like, it would nullify the door painting scene altogether.

Grey Wolf

Here's a thought. Like what many of the spellcasters we have seen so far seem to do, fly (or its equivalent) seems to be a spell usually cast off panel. If MITD had that ability, would it explain both 1041 and Belkar's inability to determine what the tracks were?

[Keltest]

Here's a thought. Like what many of the spellcasters we have seen so far seem to do, fly (or its equivalent) seems to be a spell usually cast off panel. If MITD had that ability, would it explain both 1041 and Belkar's inability to determine what the tracks were?

Potentially, but he wouldn't leave tracks at all while flying, so the difference between "belkar couldn't identify the tracks because the MITD dragged a bunch of stuff over them" and "belkar couldn't identify the tracks because they were exclusively drag marks from the stuff he was carrying" is largely meaningless.

[Darth Paul]

I'm sure someone's already noted that Belkar's inability to determine what the MitD's tracks were could just as easily be chalked up to Belkar being a horrible tracker.

He is, after all, a Ranger who's in it mostly for the two-weapon fighting feat...

[Ruck]

I'm sure someone's already noted that Belkar's inability to determine what the MitD's tracks were could just as easily be chalked up to Belkar being a horrible tracker.

He is, after all, a Ranger who's in it mostly for the two-weapon fighting feat...

Also, the MITD was dragging a body behind him, which probably skews any tracks he left behind.

Right, the issue is that Durron said "all the major favorites" don't have an answer, and GW is simply pointing out that the candidate that's arguably THE favorite among the favorites is in fact strong enough. So, not really "all".

It seems to me like Grey Wolf was using a different definition for "favorite" (most popular as voted by readers) than the one I was interpreting in durron's post (most likely as belonging in FBS list).

[Hardcore]

I am pretty sure that the escape scene is explained by Wish. This because Hoping for and Wish are close synonyms.

To me it makes sense to use occam's razor. I suppose that the author, in the interest of his communication, present us with clues that are the most relevant and that direct us to the most pertinent characteristics.

[ATrueFan]

Its a Tarrasque.

When the giant first started this comic he didn't imagine that it would ever come to this level of scrutiny so he made the MITD the most ridiculous monster in the monster manual thinking no one would think of it. But now that oots has a huge following they figured it out almost immediately and to assume that it is anything other than a Tarrasque is deluding yourself. The Giant is reluctant to say what it is because he knows people know and he really thought he was being clever but all you fandom geeks killed the speculation. This comic would be a lot better without this forum.

[Peelee]

Its a Tarrasque.

The Giant is reluctant to say what it is because he knows people know and he really thought he was being clever.

I, too, think using arguably the most famous monster among D&D players is quite clever.

[Keltest]

Its a Tarrasque.

When the giant first started this comic he didn't imagine that it would ever come to this level of scrutiny so he made the MITD the most ridiculous monster in the monster manual thinking no one would think of it. But now that oots has a huge following they figured it out almost immediately and to assume that it is anything other than a Tarrasque is deluding yourself. The Giant is reluctant to say what it is because he knows people know and he really thought he was being clever but all you fandom geeks killed the speculation. This comic would be a lot better without this forum.

I suppose if you ignore all of the details that are inconsistent with it being a tarrasque, it does look like a tarrasque. If you don't ignore them though, there are the issues of its size, lack of abilities consistent with what the MITD has displayed, and the fact that it is typically portrayed as a unique creature rather than a member of a species and therefore incapable of having a father, bigger than he is or otherwise.

[Darth Paul]

This comic would be a lot better without this forum.

But this forum would probably be a lot less interesting without the comic.

[Goblin_Priest]

I agree, which is why I'm sort of surprised all the major favorites don't really address the earthquake nor have high enough strength to actually accomplish it. I would posit that earthquake level strength would need to be significantly higher than what's required for throwing a person through a wall (which in all the math is suggested to be half thickness). Sub 40 is just not going to cut it, unless the earthquake is a spell.

This is why I think MitD is a Hagunemnon. Sure, his eyes don't change, but having no form all at makes a lot of sense for why his "form" needs to be kept secret. As far as disgusting? The picture from d20srd: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EP...Hagunemnon.jpg

Biggest problem is the teleport thing, but it clearly took him some time to be able to do the effect because he was talking about it for a few panels.

Agreed, the teleport thing is problematic.

It's either a wish, which very few creatures can cast, or some weird usage of another spell. Not much allows one to teleport others, without themselves, and without touching.

I think it's necessary to assume that Rich is ruling that dimensional anchor does not prevent the casting of such teleportation spells, it just makes it so that the target doesn't move. If we rule it this way, then the number of spells that can teleport others without teleporting oneself increases greatly.

Then there's the touching, though. They never touched. Reach Spell would be a stretch, since it becomes a ray, and we've seen none of that.

Then there's the fact that they were moved to the same plane, which removes some possibilities, like Plane Shift. So does the fact that it affected two creatures. Word of Recall, technically, has a range of unlimited, so I'm not even sure Reach Spell could apply to it to counter the "touch" requirement.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Then there's the touching, though. They never touched.

Please read section 1c. Touching is not required in OotS teleports

GW

[KorvinStarmast]

This comic would be a lot better without this forum.

While I am tempted to agree with you, there are two things that make me disagree:

1. The web comic business typically needs a way to keep eyes on the web comic. (I can't find the link, but some years ago I read a neat piece by Scott Kurtz on the web comic as a way to make a living). Might have been a post years ago on the PvP forums.

2. Had I not engaged with a few discussions here, I'd not have bought the pdf versions of numerous OoTS books, nor the hard cover of Snips and Snails and Dragon tales, nor a few of the prequel/black and white books. In short, the forum in at least one case increased sales.

Last point: The forum is like many things on the internet subject to Sturgeon's Law.

[Darth Paul]

The forum is like many things on the internet subject to Sturgeon's Law.

Not to be pedantic (who am I kidding? I'm being pedantic) isn't everything subject to Sturgeon's Law, by the nature of the Law?

[Peelee]

Not to be pedantic (who am I kidding? I'm being pedantic) isn't everything subject to Sturgeon's Law, by the nature of the Law?

Well, not sturgeons.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not to be pedantic (who am I kidding? I'm being pedantic) isn't everything subject to Sturgeon's Law, by the nature of the Law?

But that would mean that Sturgeon's Law is subject to itself... and so would this statement about the Law. We're now trapped in an infinite recursion where 90% of itself is crap. Where does the madness end!

GW

[Jasdoif]

But that would mean that Sturgeon's Law is subject to itself... and so would this statement about the Law. We're now trapped in an infinite recursion where 90% of itself is crap. Where does the madness end!

GW

If

crap=1-0.1^x

, then the limit of crap as x increases approaches 1. Or is the limit of crap as x approaches infinity equal to 1?

...either way, it's a lot of crap.

[Ruck]

Its a Tarrasque.

When the giant first started this comic he didn't imagine that it would ever come to this level of scrutiny so he made the MITD the most ridiculous monster in the monster manual thinking no one would think of it. But now that oots has a huge following they figured it out almost immediately and to assume that it is anything other than a Tarrasque is deluding yourself. The Giant is reluctant to say what it is because he knows people know and he really thought he was being clever but all you fandom geeks killed the speculation. This comic would be a lot better without this forum.

Alternately, this forum would be better without condescending posters who complain about the strip and use shallow logic to insult other posters.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Alternately, this forum would be better without condescending posters who complain about the strip and use shallow logic to insult other posters.

I don't know, that's such a staple around here that I might miss it.

And think of all those trolls you'd put out of a job!

[Jay R]

But that would mean that Sturgeon's Law is subject to itself... and so would this statement about the Law. We're now trapped in an infinite recursion where 90% of itself is crap. Where does the madness end!

GW

No, it would mean that the genre of ironic laws are subject to Sturgeon's Law. Sturgeon's Law could be one of the 10%.

[Humanist Geek]

Nightmare Beasts have been around since Athas was a setting (aka Dark Sun), so I take it the "Athasian Nightmare Beast" mentioned in the FBS section only has that publication timing disclaimer because the 3.5e version was released after comic 100? Are there any other reasons I'm missing or forgetting?

Right, the issue is that Durron said "all the major favorites" don't have an answer, and GW is simply pointing out that the candidate that's arguably THE favorite among the favorites is in fact strong enough. So, not really "all".

Also, there's the issue that the wall-crashing bit was more or less calculated using rules. But afaik there are no rules at all for creating earthquakes. So that 50, while reasonable, is an unsupportable guess and thus not a particularly hard and fast rule.

I'm pretty sure there are many monsters that can create an earthquake as a special ability (extraordinary, spell-like, or whatever) such as, IIRC, the 3.5e Goristro. Consequently, the Protean also has access to that ability.