MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

[DaggerPen]

The Proteans I linked were, after reviewing the publication date, all published way too late to be the MitD. I just thought it was an interesting find if they were the culmination of a thread of earlier Protean variants

[Shining Wrath]

Repeating an earlier thought, we know MitD is non-standard for his "kind".

1. Per SBGH, unusual to be in a rainforest
2. Per SBGH, unusual to speak Common
3. Per multiple clues, smaller than normal

That's why anything that's reasonably close should be considered even if not a perfect fit, because the "fine line" between something Rich made up and something someone else made up may well be "I took a Protean and tweaked it slightly for story purposes".

OTOH, it could also mean "I took something never published in an official D&D source and gave it a D&D stat block", in which case we have a bigger problem ahead of us.

[Darth V]

OTOH, it could also mean "I took something never published in an official D&D source and gave it a D&D stat block", in which case we have a bigger problem ahead of us.

I seriously doubt that Rich has stat blocks for anything in his comic.

Put me down for Protean as well. Regarding the (not-)shifting eyes, I fully expect a lampshade hung at the reveal:

Wait, so I could have done this - *wiggles his eyes in three different directions* - before, like, ALL THE TIME???

There is a reason we kept you in the dark for so long. Actually, there are several very good reasons to do so, but preventing you from realising your full powers is one of them.

Can't let those nerds get the right guess at the first appearance, no?

[Peelee]

I seriously doubt that Rich has stat blocks for anything in his comic.

I fully agree, but for some reason this comment reminded me of the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon, which totally had stat blocks for the main characters and villain. And as far as I can tell, they kept to 'em, too - for instance, one of Bobby's features was

3/day Bobby may strike the ground and cause a tremor in a 30 foot line those in the area must make a Reflex DC 20 or fall prone

And I eventually noticed that while Bobby used this ability often, he never seemed to use it more than three times per episode. Which is kinda awesome.

And, and I think I'll finally make an actual guess as to the MitD. Put me in the Protean camp as well.

[nleseul]

3/day Bobby may strike the ground and cause a tremor in a 30 foot line those in the area must make a Reflex DC 20 or fall prone

Confirmed: MitD is a Phrenic Bobby.

[Peelee]

Confirmed: MitD is a Phrenic Bobby.

No, dude, that's silly. MitD is clearly Dungeon Master.

For reals, though, that Phrenic Bobby made me laugh. Well played.

[littlebum2002]

No, dude, that's silly. MitD is clearly Dungeon Master.

For reals, though, that Phrenic Bobby made me laugh. Well played.

No, he's the son of Rich and the Snarl.

[The Artisan]

No, he's the son of Rich and the Snarl.

Wait, Rich and the Snarl would produce a Couatl? I think our biology is getting really convoluted here.

[Lombard]

Wait, Rich and the Snarl would produce a Couatl? I think our biology is getting really convoluted here.

lol someone made a forum alt just for me? OMG... I'VE LEVELED

[Humanist Geek]

An umbrella of reduce person/animal might work.



I am unsure about that here panel 7 his eyes are above the hobgoblins head (and looking down in panel 11 they would still be above if looking straight forward) where here here panel 1 they are level with Redcloak's eyes (who is roughly equal to the goblin standing beside him).

Could be nothing or the monster might crouch under the umbrella etc, but might also be a clue.

I think it might just be an inconsistency, or perhaps a change in posture. His eye-level changes from panel to panel in that same scene: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html

[Ruck]

Heh, #701 reminds me: "Pulling has all those tricky parts where you hold something AND move it." I would imagine a Protean would find this difficult, since it has to use a Move action to maintain a shape, which I gather is necessary for it to maintain the specific limbs it's using to hold and pull the rope.

Of course, it could just be a joke about the MitD's low intelligence (or unwillingness to use the intelligence it has).

[Manty5]

> Section 1g: (Not) Seeing the Gates

I think that the MitD not seeing the gates is actually even more important than that section of the page implies: We've seen numerous hints by now that what we're seeing is not a gate and the MitD is the only one that notices.

So the whole time everyone's pointing at something that's not a gate and but talking about a gate and MitD is confused. All of his dialog can be read this way.

This ties in with my other major belief about the MitD's identity and our search for the answer: All the points of explanation, all the clues should be subordinate to how it will tie into the story (and I think we can take for granted that it will tie into the story) when it is revealed. So basically: Rule of Cool first, and matching the clues a very, very distant second.

That's also why I don't think it's a shapeshifter: I feel that this idea is devoid of any merits EXCEPT as a rote formula to explain all the clues, since a shapeshifter can be anything. But there's no story reason that I can see for it to be a shapeshifter, and it seems just too... bland an answer to be the truth.

In the course of guessing the MitD's identity, I think we've limited possible answers based soley on the fact that releasing those limitations would lead to too many possibilities, such as explaining scenes with templates. Just because something makes the identity hard to guess is not an indicator of whether it's true or not.

[ClockShock]

> Section 1g: (Not) Seeing the Gates

I think that the MitD not seeing the gates is actually even more important than that section of the page implies: We've seen numerous hints by now that what we're seeing is not a gate and the MitD is the only one that notices.

So the whole time everyone's pointing at something that's not a gate and but talking about a gate and MitD is confused. All of his dialog can be read this way.

This ties in with my other major belief about the MitD's identity and our search for the answer: All the points of explanation, all the clues should be subordinate to how it will tie into the story (and I think we can take for granted that it will tie into the story) when it is revealed. So basically: Rule of Cool first, and matching the clues a very, very distant second.

That's also why I don't think it's a shapeshifter: I feel that this idea is devoid of any merits EXCEPT as a rote formula to explain all the clues, since a shapeshifter can be anything. But there's no story reason that I can see for it to be a shapeshifter, and it seems just too... bland an answer to be the truth.

In the course of guessing the MitD's identity, I think we've limited possible answers based soley on the fact that releasing those limitations would lead to too many possibilities, such as explaining scenes with templates. Just because something makes the identity hard to guess is not an indicator of whether it's true or not.

And your proposal is...?

[Ruck]

That's also why I don't think it's a shapeshifter: I feel that this idea is devoid of any merits EXCEPT as a rote formula to explain all the clues, since a shapeshifter can be anything. But there's no story reason that I can see for it to be a shapeshifter, and it seems just too... bland an answer to be the truth.

If this is in reference to the Protean, Grey Wolf has explained multiple times why it doesn't really work that way.

[littlebum2002]

We've seen numerous hints by now that what we're seeing is not a gate and the MitD is the only one that notices.

That's not true at all. We've seen numerous hints by now that what we're seeing might not be a rift. In no place in the comic has the existence of the gates created by the Order of the Scribble been questioned, except the running gag where the MitD can't see them.

[b_jonas]

Heh, #701 reminds me: "Pulling has all those tricky parts where you hold something AND move it."

That quote has frustrated me a lot (because Igramul hunts with a web whose strands are as thick as ropes), but looking at it objectively it shouldn't be surprising. The MitD can hit so hard that he makes a horse-shaped hole in the stone wall. Even from that it's quite obvious that he can push hard. Unless he can also pull as hard as Roy, it is certain that he can push better than pull.

[Qwertystop]

That quote has frustrated me a lot (because Igramul hunts with a web whose strands are as thick as ropes), but looking at it objectively it shouldn't be surprising. The MitD can hit so hard that he makes a horse-shaped hole in the stone wall. Even from that it's quite obvious that he can push hard. Unless he can also pull as hard as Roy, it is certain that he can push better than pull.

Just checked the carrying capacity rules - nothing about pulling explicitly, but you can drag up to your maximum load and push up to five times that, so going by the rules in general, pushing does seem to be significantly easier than pulling.

[ReaderAt2046]

In the course of guessing the MitD's identity, I think we've limited possible answers based soley on the fact that releasing those limitations would lead to too many possibilities, such as explaining scenes with templates. Just because something makes the identity hard to guess is not an indicator of whether it's true or not.

True, but irrelevant to the point of this thread. The whole point of this thread is to make guesses at what MITD might be, so we have to exclude explanations that would make guessing impossible.

There is, for example, no concrete proof that the MITD doesn't have one or more templates, but we assume that he doesn't because allowing templates allows just about anything to be a possibility, and that means that there's no way to make a guess.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

True, but irrelevant to the point of this thread. The whole point of this thread is to make guesses at what MITD might be, so we have to exclude explanations that would make guessing impossible.

I would say that the purpose of this thread is to classify what MitD might be, not guess. Templates are classified in one category, base species are categorised in another. If a reader wants to put them together, nothing's stopping them. If they want to come up with their own theory based on what they think will be major plot points to the story, or rule of cool, or whatever else, nothing's stopping them. But until such time as someone comes up with a classification process better than the one I am using (and can convince enough people of it), I fail to see what exactly they expect this thread to do about their approach. I certainly cannot think how I'd be able to use "Role of Cool, as determined by Manty5" to classify anything.

Grey Wolf

[Gryffon]

I re-read the template section and perhaps it might benefit from some clarification. If I understand correctly, the general sentiment is not that templates are completely ruled out, but that if a template is used to explain a particular situation, it could equally explain it for any base creature. Which is why base creatures and templates are being looked at separately. Maybe just making this part bold:

More practically, templates can provide practically every ability the MitD has demonstrated (teleportation, strange appearance, physical defenses, great strength, etc. Due to the ability of templates to make practically anything the MitD, this thread has moved away from analyzing specific monster template combinations (of which there are many), and instead will evaluate templates alone as what they could contribute (if there is a published example of a creature with a template, it can be proposed as a creature).

Or maybe just an addendum somewhere else saying something to the effect that guesses are a priority list.

Priority:
Base Creature > Base Creature w/1 Template > Base Creature w/2 Templates > Base Creature w/n Templates

I say this, because this seems to be where a lot of confusion(and occassional strife) lies. I don't feel like the majority are saying that the MitD can't have a template(or more). Just that it is generally against the Fine Line argument and that since templates can equally apply to most monsters, it doesn't add to the ability to narrow down the categories.

[halfeye]

In part because I want the thread ticked when I look at it.

There have been a lot of instances of the MitD holding things, and we've never seen the appendage (arm, tentacle, whatever) doing the holding. I believe this is because the MitD is invisible. What's the point of having an invisible creature in darkness? it's funny, a gag, a joke, and that's all the justification it needs (Xykon's joke, too, so that explains why he's for it).

Copyright used to run out after a time, but since about the time of Mickey Mouse, it's been extended. So it has run out for anything before Mickey, and for anything since Mickey it's more or less still in operation (that's USA law, and some of the rest of the world, but there was a thing about the Anne Frank diary recently).

So if we are looking for a monster, it has to be older than Mickey, invisible, and very strong. I can't think of anything in Shakespear that fits the description.

Then there's "Trenchant Political Analysis", that phrase sounds very modern to me, the word "Trenchant" is probably old, but the phrase as a whole seems modern somehow. I'm almost tempted to say post Mickey, and maybe it is, but that would leave us with a problem with copyright.

People seem to be assuming that the MitD must have D&D stats, I don't see that as necessary, it has to be strong, but the flavour of strength can be assigned as required by plot, so long as it's strong to start with.

I don't feel the protean is likely, because of the difficulties it would have with holding the same shape long enough to do things, and also copyright.

If there's a way round copyright, then I think Monty Python is a probable source for "Trenchant Political Analysis", but if it's not them (can it be the spanish inquisition? is that copyright?), it's perhaps a book I haven't read, of which there are millions.

So far I like the Boojum best, but it's best of some in my humble opinion very poor candidates, it's by no means to my mind ideal.

The boojum is strong (which deals with the light hits in the tower and the stomp). It leaves no tracks (which is fine for the snow, and adequate for Belkar's tracking if we assume it dragged Roy and O'chul). It is apparently invisible (which explains all the times we don't see hands or feet). It can spirit things away to never be seen again (which deals with the escape). The boojum is free of copyright.

I'm not sure what to make of the circus scene, maybe it eats?

[nleseul]

Another organizational change that would be possibly useful (but a lot of work) might be to organize the list of possibilities according to which criteria they don't fit. That way, if someone wants to assume that MitD has a template granting teleportation, they can look at the subsection for base creatures that are missing teleportation; or, if they want to assume that he has a template granting high strength or an earthquake ability, they can look at the relevant subsection for those; and so on.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I believe this is because the MitD is invisible.

I'm not interested in discussing this with halfeye again, so I'll just note the inherent problems with this assertion:

• The circus act does not work if MitD is invisible
• Many different characters, including Xykon, random goblins, and Oona have been able to see MitD when he was out of the shadows
• Xykon tells MitD to leap out of the darkness - implying there is something for the order to see (otherwise, why bother?)
• The whole argument is predicated on MitD holding things without wrapping his limb around them - but that is not how holding works in early OotS - instead, things simply are drawn layered on top of hands (see Belkar's dagger in panels 6-9)

Grey Wolf

[halfeye]

I'm not interested in discussing this with halfeye again, so I'll just note the inherent problems with this assertion:

• The circus act does not work if MitD is invisible
• Many different characters, including Xykon, random goblins, and Oona have been able to see MitD when he was out of the shadows
• Xykon tells MitD to leap out of the darkness - implying there is something for the order to see (otherwise, why bother?)
• The whole argument is predicated on MitD holding things without wrapping his limb around them - but that is not how holding works in early OotS - instead, things simply are drawn layered on top of hands (see Belkar's dagger in panels 6-9)

Grey Wolf

I'm sorry if this is upsetting, however I think this should be discussed.

The circus act is the most difficult for an invisible creature to explain, but there are explanations that can be attempted, if the invisible creature does something or has something done to it, that could have visible effects. Eating for example, does the food disappear at the lips? If not, that would be pretty disgusting, even if the digestion was entirely normal.

Holding things:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html

I'm seeing all the way through the MitD there, and no sign of a hand at all. If you're saying the hand is behind the rope not in front, I'm saying why can't we see the hand behind the rope?

I suppose that is from before the art upgrade, but the paint can, brush and umbrella was carried since, and there was no hand visible there either:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html

Xykon telling something invisible to jump out of the darkness would be entirely on par for Xykon, he likes to be entertained, he let Miko almost kill Redcloak for giggles.

[rweird]

Bigger question: If the MitD is invisible, why can we see his eyes? Being able to see parts of the MitD is a pretty big argument against invisibility. Unless you have a partially invisible suggestion (not that I know of any). Being telekinetic is a better argument, although the whole "Keep the MitD a secret" seems to be most probable to me.

[Mightymosy]

I'm sorry if this is upsetting, however I think this should be discussed.

The circus act is the most difficult for an invisible creature to explain, but there are explanations that can be attempted, if the invisible creature does something or has something done to it, that could have visible effects. Eating for example, does the food disappear at the lips? If not, that would be pretty disgusting, even if the digestion was entirely normal.

Holding things:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html

I'm seeing all the way through the MitD there, and no sign of a hand at all. If you're saying the hand is behind the rope not in front, I'm saying why can't we see the hand behind the rope?

I suppose that is from before the art upgrade, but the paint can, brush and umbrella was carried since, and there was no hand visible there either:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html

Xykon telling something invisible to jump out of the darkness would be entirely on par for Xykon, he likes to be entertained, he let Miko almost kill Redcloak for giggles.

But we see Stewie's eyes!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm sorry if this is upsetting, however I think this should be discussed.

The circus act is the most difficult for an invisible creature to explain, but there are explanations that can be attempted, if the invisible creature does something or has something done to it, that could have visible effects. Eating for example, does the food disappear at the lips? If not, that would be pretty disgusting, even if the digestion was entirely normal.

None of those things happen in the circus scene. We are explicitly told he just stands there. He is not painted, he is not eating, he is not doing anything at all.

Holding things:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html

I'm seeing all the way through the MitD there, and no sign of a hand at all. If you're saying the hand is behind the rope not in front, I'm saying why can't we see the hand behind the rope?

We can't see MitD because Rich doesn't bother drawing the MitD. He is in constant darkness. Since objects in OotS can be carried by overlaying, that's what Rich does. You might as well ask how Belkar can possibly be holding the dagger in comic 1. And since limbs are displayed as black lines, there is nothing for us to see when MitD is in shadows anyway.

I suppose that is from before the art upgrade, but the paint can, brush and umbrella was carried since, and there was no hand visible there either:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html

You seem to think this is an argument. It is not. MitD has not been upgraded - we still can see the umbrella stick, even though we shouldn't. He is still following "old style" rules of drawing. The fact that it makes no sense that we can see the stick when it is dark should tell you that you are reading way too much into the drawing clues.

Xykon telling something invisible to jump out of the darkness would be entirely on par for Xykon, he likes to be entertained, he let Miko almost kill Redcloak for giggles.

Xykon wants a dramatic reveal - he explicitly says so - but having an invisible creature jumping does not increase or decrease drama. He quite clearly is NOT treating the reveal as a giggles moment, making your comparison invalid.

I also note that you have no explanation for the fact that everyone that has had a chance to see MitD did in fact manage to see him.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

I'm sorry if this is upsetting, however I think this should be discussed.

The circus act is the most difficult for an invisible creature to explain, but there are explanations that can be attempted, if the invisible creature does something or has something done to it, that could have visible effects. Eating for example, does the food disappear at the lips? If not, that would be pretty disgusting, even if the digestion was entirely normal.

Holding things:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html

I'm seeing all the way through the MitD there, and no sign of a hand at all. If you're saying the hand is behind the rope not in front, I'm saying why can't we see the hand behind the rope?

I suppose that is from before the art upgrade, but the paint can, brush and umbrella was carried since, and there was no hand visible there either:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html

Xykon telling something invisible to jump out of the darkness would be entirely on par for Xykon, he likes to be entertained, he let Miko almost kill Redcloak for giggles.

Lets assume for a moment those are all completely valid explanations (which I'm not convinced of, but whatever), you haven't explained the numerous non-Xykon characters who have been able to see the MITD and identify him based entirely on what they have seen (for example, Oona). Also, Xykon calls the MITD "ugly" the first time he sees it, which seems a rather odd reaction for something that has no physical appearance.

[halfeye]

Bigger question: If the MitD is invisible, why can we see his eyes? Being able to see parts of the MitD is a pretty big argument against invisibility. Unless you have a partially invisible suggestion (not that I know of any). Being telekinetic is a better argument, although the whole "Keep the MitD a secret" seems to be most probable to me.

I really don't know about the eyebrows, but it seems to me that if the MitD sees with them, that would make his eyes visible, because if light goes straight through stuff without stopping that makes the stuff transparent, but if light stops, which it has to do for the MitD to see, that makes whatever stops it opaque, and thus visible.

None of those things happen in the circus scene. We are explicitly told he just stands there. He is not painted, he is not eating, he is not doing anything at all.

You did the same thing you do every show-stand on out the stage and get gawked at.

That says he did nothing, which I didn't remember. It doesn't say nothing was done to him or near him.

We can't see MitD because Rich doesn't bother drawing the MitD. He is in constant darkness. Since objects in OotS can be carried by overlaying, that's what Rich does. You might as well ask how Belkar can possibly be holding the dagger in comic 1. And since limbs are displayed as black lines, there is nothing for us to see when MitD is in shadows anyway.

You seem to think this is an argument. It is not. MitD has not been upgraded - we still can see the umbrella stick, even though we shouldn't. He is still following "old style" rules of drawing. The fact that it makes no sense that we can see the stick when it is dark should tell you that you are reading way too much into the drawing clues.

It seems to me we have two options, MitD is not drawn because he's invisible, or he's not drawn because that would give clues to what he is. I don't think Mr Berlew is playing that hardball with this secret that he'd hide things to prevent us finding the MitD, because if he is, we can pack up and go home, there is no way we can work it out if what's visible is variable to hide the MitD from us.

Xykon wants a dramatic reveal - he explicitly says so - but having an invisible creature jumping does not increase or decrease drama. He quite clearly is NOT treating the reveal as a giggles moment, making your comparison invalid.

With Xykon, everything is a potential giggles moment. A What is That moment would suit his temperament as well as an Ooer Missus moment, especially if he thinks he can get both for the price of one.

I also note that you have no explanation for the fact that everyone that has had a chance to see MitD did in fact manage to see him.

Grey Wolf

Lets assume for a moment those are all completely valid explanations (which I'm not convinced of, but whatever), you haven't explained the numerous non-Xykon characters who have been able to see the MITD and identify him based entirely on what they have seen (for example, Oona). Also, Xykon calls the MITD "ugly" the first time he sees it, which seems a rather odd reaction for something that has no physical appearance.

I'm not sure about the people seeing him, some probably have magically enhanced vision, some may be mistaken. I'm not in the slightest suggesting that the MitD is incorporeal, I think he's solid, just not visible.

[SavageWombat]

You know what doesn't make sense?

Anything powerful enough to be the MitD would be so dangerous that there's no way a couple of Stereotypical Big Game Hunters would casually say "Good job, let's put it in a box!" even if it was a young one.

I know Rule of Funny applies here, but it just struck me as odd.