MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

[b_jonas]

Just to clarify here, did you mean Star Trek?

Argh. Yes, I meant Star Trek.

[Bestigle]

Good points.

Would it work if we assumed only the looks of MitD automatically matched to every viewer, but things like earthquakes, rain or teleport wishes were subject to the will of MitD (those only happen if he decides to do so)??

Does such a monster exsist in D&D?

Does such a monster ring any bell for anyone from some differnt kind of lore? Grimm's fairy tales? 1001 nights? Alice in the wonderland? The clause "has he ever been drawn before?" could mean that MitD origins from a non-visual story, maybe even Rich Burlew not being sure if that monster had been drawn in a visual medium yet.
Not saying it has to be like that, but if someone suddenly remembers something that fits that description? Would make a nice addition to the guesses, maybe.

Big fan of Grimm's Fairy Tales, but I don't really recall anything being a shapeshifter that takes the form of what people fear. Anything that possessed abilities like that, i.e. shapeshifting, tended to use it simply to further their own ends or to test people. It wasn't exactly keyed to a particular fear or whatever. Death, enchantresses, and fairies tended to take the form of others, but they never really used it for scaring people. Grimm's tales focused on the hero outwitting the evil villain, getting the girl, and so on, so shapeshifter villains used their powers for temptation- not so much punching a horse through a wall of destroying the area around them.

There was one story, I think, with some guy turning into the fear of the hero- but it was more of a 'Look! Be afraid!' as opposed to anything that could really be terrifying or anything like that. Plus the shapeshifter was humanoid, knew how talk regularly, and didn't really have that many defining characteristics.

[Crusher]

I've updated the list of guesses in post 7. In a nutshell, the Protean has opened up such a huge lead that I'm no longer doing a top 5.

There are a half-dozen or more candidates with between 1.0 and 1.4 points. So, technically they've got an order, but since the Protean has like 15 points, they're not seriously in contention (at least, at the moment) and they're close enough to be effectively tied with each other.

Really, the only other candidate of note is the Athasian Nightmare Beast. The ANB has about 5 points which is pretty far behind the Protean. But its far enough ahead of the big scrum in the low to mid 1s that its worth a mention as being in distant second.

[RicB76]

I have no idea at all what type of creature the MitD is and I'm not about to throw my hat into the ring either. What I can say though, is that I love this thread and the speculation, how long has this been running for now, the beginning? You guys deserve medals for the effort you've put in, or maybe a bigger hint from the Giant. That said, the monster does seem to be developing nicely over the last few comics and I can almost feel, for the first time that we'll all soon know. Hopefully it'll be a happy ending. But honestly, if it always remains as a beast under a kitty or whatever umbrella I'd still be happy with that.

- Rich's English Namesake

[Throknor]

...

FWIW, my choices are Uvuudaum and Glabrezu.

[Hardcore]

I did a quick check online but could not find any into about the publishing date of the Imentesh.
Did it exist before strip 13?

I can only find a reference to "Pathfinder Chronicles: The Great Beyond", and that is from 2009.

[Peelee]

I did a quick check online but could not find any into about the publishing date of the Imentesh.
Did it exist before strip 13?

Quick google shows nothing but Pathfinder. If it was created for Pathfinder, pretty sure the first 100 strips predate it.

[Hardcore]

Quick google shows nothing but Pathfinder. If it was created for Pathfinder, pretty sure the first 100 strips predate it.

Ok, tnx. I know nothing about the relationship between the two games, but i guess it makes sense that the later make its own path.

[Peelee]

Ok, tnx. I know nothing about the relationship between the two games, but i guess it makes sense that the later make its own path.

I lol'ed.

Pathfinder is basically the continuation of 3.5 once Wizards of the Coast moved D&D to 4th edition. This is a poor description, but more than good enough to demonstrate the difference/relationship.

[Shining Wrath]

Pathfinder is sometimes called D&D 3.75.

MitD is not invisible. Too many people have seen him and explicitly stated that they saw him.

The easiest explanation is that Rich doesn't draw appendages because it's more fun that way (and also faster; see #1040 for an example of Rich explicitly saying via MitD that he tries to avoid drawing too much). If we knew MitD had hands, or fur, or scales, it would be too much of a clue. Until the Big Reveal we won't see anything but his eyes, no matter what he's doing.

He's got to be a something that experienced people (SBGH, Oona, Redcloak) recognize but most inhabitants of OotSverse do not. The only leading candidates I think that really rules out are the Glabrezu, which I think would be featured in enough religious texts depicting the horrors of the CE afterlife that commoners would recognize it; and the Carbosilicate Amorph, which no one, no matter how learned, should recognize as it is not of OotSverse at all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The easiest explanation is that Rich doesn't draw appendages because it's more fun that way (and also faster; see #1040 for an example of Rich explicitly saying via MitD that he tries to avoid drawing too much). If we knew MitD had hands, or fur, or scales, it would be too much of a clue. Until the Big Reveal we won't see anything but his eyes, no matter what he's doing.

I think this is a valid opinion, but I don't quite agree. I don't think Rich is refraining to draw MitD because it'd be a big clue (what with most limbs in OotS looking mostly the same: a black line dividing into three black lines), so much as the fact that MitD started as a pair of eyes in a pool of darkness, and therefore will continue to be just a pair of eyes in a pool of darkness until the reveal. Not because this makes our lives harder (or easier, or anything else) but because the guessing game is secondary to the story, and in the story, MitD is an ongoing joke: a creature forced to never show itself because of the drama wims of Xykon. From a characterisation PoV, that is the basis of MitD as a character and Rich will always put that ahead of almost everything else, and most definitely ahead of the guessing game.

He's got to be a something that experienced people (SBGH, Oona, Redcloak) recognize but most inhabitants of OotSverse do not. The only leading candidates I think that really rules out are the Glabrezu, which I think would be featured in enough religious texts depicting the horrors of the CE afterlife that commoners would recognize it; and the Carbosilicate Amorph, which no one, no matter how learned, should recognize as it is not of OotSverse at all.

I've said it before, but I don't think glabrezus would be as recognisable to the general population as most other demons. In the grand spectrum of monsters of D&D, glabrezu does not look that much like a traditional demon (where traditional in this context means creatures that look like Qarr, Qarr's summoned demon, Sabine in demon form, etc. - i.e. bipedal, red, scaly, bat winged, horns, NOT a dragon and so on). I accept, however, that this is a matter of opinion, what with not having seen just how detailed the church decorations are in OotS.

As to recognising a carb amorph... it would depend on how many other chunks of the original are running around. We know there is more than one of MitD's species, therefore some people in the world may have run across his daddy, brothers, etc. After all, as far as we know of carb amorph reproduction, it is a matter of creating a new personality, blobbing it off and letting it live its own life; even a single carb amorph crossing over to OotS could reproduce, if it became enamored with any local intelligent being. As to recognition, In Oona's case, for example, she is playing with the advantage of living next to the largest repository of powerful creatures in OotS, so she having knowledge beyond what would be expected of her class and level is easily explained. Stereotypical BGH will stereotypically know about these things. Harder to explain, for once, is RC, who would not be able to find the carb amorph is any of his manuals.

Grey Wolf

[Shining Wrath]

I think this is a valid opinion, but I don't quite agree. I don't think Rich is refraining to draw MitD because it'd be a big clue (what with most limbs in OotS looking mostly the same: a black line dividing into three black lines), so much as the fact that MitD started as a pair of eyes in a pool of darkness, and therefore will continue to be just a pair of eyes in a pool of darkness until the reveal. Not because this makes our lives harder (or easier, or anything else) but because the guessing game is secondary to the story, and in the story, MitD is an ongoing joke: a creature forced to never show itself because of the drama wims of Xykon. From a characterisation PoV, that is the basis of MitD as a character and Rich will always put that ahead of almost everything else, and most definitely ahead of the guessing game.


I've said it before, but I don't think glabrezus would be as recognisable to the general population as most other demons. In the grand spectrum of monsters of D&D, glabrezu does not look that much like a traditional demon (where traditional in this context means creatures that look like Qarr, Qarr's summoned demon, Sabine in demon form, etc. - i.e. bipedal, red, scaly, bat winged, horns, NOT a dragon and so on). I accept, however, that this is a matter of opinion, what with not having seen just how detailed the church decorations are in OotS.

As to recognising a carb amorph... it would depend on how many other chunks of the original are running around. We know there is more than one of MitD's species, therefore some people in the world may have run across his daddy, brothers, etc. After all, as far as we know of carb amorph reproduction, it is a matter of creating a new personality, blobbing it off and letting it live its own life; even a single carb amorph crossing over to OotS could reproduce, if it became enamored with any local intelligent being. As to recognition, In Oona's case, for example, she is playing with the advantage of living next to the largest repository of powerful creatures in OotS, so she having knowledge beyond what would be expected of her class and level is easily explained. Stereotypical BGH will stereotypically know about these things. Harder to explain, for once, is RC, who would not be able to find the carb amorph is any of his manuals.

Grey Wolf

Having thought about it some more, I hereby propose the Weak Carbosilicate Amorphic Principle.

If MitD is in fact a CSA, it is because Rich has brought CSAs into OotSverse, and therefore they are as recognizable as any other monster of similar rarity

[dancrilis]

which I think would be featured in enough religious texts depicting the horrors of the CE afterlife that commoners would recognize it

This is the same religious education where priests of Thor don't know that priest of Loki serve an opposing deity (and possible visa versa if Loki's reaction is anything to go by).

Frankly if I see these walking down the street tomorrow:

Spoiler: different glabrezus

Show

I am unlikely to go "Glabrezus!" and I have just looked them up a minute ago - in my life I have likely seen more images of Glabrezus than more or less anyone in the world of the OOTS.

glabrezu does not look that much like a traditional demon (where traditional in this context means creatures that look like Qarr, Qarr's summoned demon, Sabine in demon form, etc. - i.e. bipedal, red, scaly, bat winged, horns, NOT a dragon and so on)

I believe that Qarr is an Imp (a devil) and as such the creature he summoned was likely also a devil (possible a pit fiend) - he was not affiliated with the IFCC at the time of the summoning.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I believe that Qarr is an Imp (a devil) and as such the creature he summoned was likely also a devil (possible a pit fiend) - he was not affiliated with the IFCC at the time of the summoning.

To be absolutely clear, I meant "demon" in the vernacular, not in the D&D classification. Qarr & his friend both look like demons as is meant by that word in the everyday English language, whether they are actually demons, devils or daemons, all of whom are synonyms and/or spelling variations in the general language.

GW

[dancrilis]

Grand so (though it would depend on what you mean by 'general language', point understood).

[Crusher]

The only leading candidates I think that really rules out are the Glabrezu, which I think would be featured in enough religious texts depicting the horrors of the CE afterlife that commoners would recognize it;

Something worth remembering is that the afterlife in the Stickverse is a complicated place. First off, every alignment has its own plane (or planes) where people go when they die. So there's nine of them, each with a broad range of inhabitants. Heck, just looking at the demons, there are dozens of kinds of Tanar'ri to say nothing of Obyriths and Loumara and Elemental Demons and others like Quasits and Shadow Demons that weren't classified in 3.5e.

Multiply that by 9 (plus the denizens of the Astral and Ethereal planes as well) and you've got hundreds of creatures for people to keep track of, virtually none of which the average Stickverse peasant will ever see. The odds of them recognizing a somewhat odd-looking one is probably pretty low.

Imagine all the planets in our solar system were inhabited, and we knew they were inhabited because astronauts had been there and made drawings of some. To us, today, that'd be pretty awesome and generate huge interest and excitement. But after 500 years (assuming space travel doesn't get any easier or more common than it is today) it'd be pretty old hat. Every few years a handful of astronauts would travel back and forth (probably causing some trouble), but 99.9% of people would live their lives without ever seeing an actual alien/demon or meeting a person who'd traveled there.

Sure, it'd be neat in concept, but it had long since stopped being exciting or special. And since it had zero impact on most people's day to day lives most folks just wouldn't think about it very much.

[Shining Wrath]

Regarding the recognition of the glabrezu, I expect that any not-CE government is going to try to suppress chaotic evil worship within its territory. Even NE and CN governments; and furthermore, CE nations are not going to last long. It is the one alignment that's really inimical to anything resembling civilization; the strong do what they want, the weak try to avoid the strong, and no one can trust anyone. Even among drow we have tales of Lolth coming by to tell them to chill a little and stop slaughtering each other.

Therefore, if there's going to be religious propaganda and education in a D&D world, it's sure to include a depiction of just how horrible the CE afterlife is. Of all the alignments, CE is the one everyone else distrusts the most and wants kept away from them.

If you're NE, do you prefer to work with LE or CE, all things being equal?
Same for CN - CG or CE? Who do you want behind you in a dungeon crawl?

YMMV, but I expect there to be more anti-CE bias and propaganda than anything else.

[Crusher]

Regarding the recognition of the glabrezu, I expect that any not-CE government is going to try to suppress chaotic evil worship within its territory. Even NE and CN governments; and furthermore, CE nations are not going to last long. It is the one alignment that's really inimical to anything resembling civilization; the strong do what they want, the weak try to avoid the strong, and no one can trust anyone. Even among drow we have tales of Lolth coming by to tell them to chill a little and stop slaughtering each other.

Therefore, if there's going to be religious propaganda and education in a D&D world, it's sure to include a depiction of just how horrible the CE afterlife is. Of all the alignments, CE is the one everyone else distrusts the most and wants kept away from them.

If you're NE, do you prefer to work with LE or CE, all things being equal?
Same for CN - CG or CE? Who do you want behind you in a dungeon crawl?

YMMV, but I expect there to be more anti-CE bias and propaganda than anything else.

On the one hand, that's reasonable and makes intuitive sense. On the other hand, there's zero evidence of it. To each, their own.

[dancrilis]

Something worth remembering is that the afterlife in the Stickverse is a complicated place. First off, every alignment has its own plane (or planes) where people go when they die. So there's nine of them, each with a broad range of inhabitants.

Seventeen I believe.

[Kish]

On the one hand, that's reasonable and makes intuitive sense. On the other hand, there's zero evidence of it. To each, their own.

I don't really think it works intuitively, either. For starters it's empirically disproven: There was a Neutral Evil character on Xykon's team, and she had an obsessive crush on her Chaotic Evil teammate and hated her Lawful Evil teammate. But suppose that Tsukiko doesn't count, because "if you're NE" implies "and a perfectly rational actor." Try specific in-comic examples of the alignments: if a perfectly rational actor has to ally with either Xykon or Tarquin, which would they pick?

I'd pick Xykon, for my part. Yes, he might well kill me on a whim. He also might well not kill me on a whim. Thousands of hobgoblins have thus far survived being in close proximity to him. He's brutal and arbitrary, driven by whims, not vengeful enough to remember why he would want vengeance on the fighter who destroyed his body at Dorukan's Gate. Tarquin, meanwhile, apparently feels an active obligation to dominate (rape, torture, kill) everyone who crosses his path.

Did Azure City emphasize the wrong of Chaotic Evil, or of Lawful Evil? I don't know, but their traditional enemies were the Lawful Evil hobgoblins. Does the Empire of Blood stress the unacceptability of Chaotic Evil more than the unacceptability of other alignments? Trick question: the Empire of Blood only recognizes two moral stances vis-a-vis the "limited and unrealistic" alignment system: "Recognizes that Tarquin is Right about Everything" and "On Fire." Has anyone in the entire comic ever indicated a belief that Chaotic Evil is worse than Lawful Evil or vice versa, without it being "not-my-alignment is clearly less right than my-alignment"? Not that I can recall.

Rich has avoided any of the "Lawful Evil is Evil Lite and Chaotic Evil is Evil Full" tropes thus far, for which I am extremely grateful.

[Hardcore]

I lol'ed.

Pathfinder is basically the continuation of 3.5 once Wizards of the Coast moved D&D to 4th edition. This is a poor description, but more than good enough to demonstrate the difference/relationship.

oh, i had it the other way round!

[Hardcore]

Anyone knows about RB's opinion on the matter of copyrights?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Anyone knows about RB's opinion on the matter of copyrights?

The only opinion that matters for the purpose of this thread is Rich's statement as head mod that copyright is a topic that cannot to be discussed, because it would count as "professional advice". But if you check the Index of the Giant's Comments thread (or ask there), there might be a post or two in which he might have touched on the subject.

Grey Wolf

[Yendor]

The only opinion that matters for the purpose of this thread is Rich's statement as head mod that copyright is a topic that cannot to be discussed, because it would count as "professional advice". But if you check the Index of the Giant's Comments thread (or ask there), there might be a post or two in which he might have touched on the subject.

Here's one. I'd assume that Rich, as a publisher claiming his own trademarks, knows what he's talking about.

[Hardcore]

Thanks! With Imentesh being too recent i need that info to consider options

[Throknor]

Backing away from potential quandries, in a later one of his posts he actually says:

I don't know that "fun" really enters into it as much as "satisfying." And for those, it's the ones where I've been imagining and laying the foundation for a singular surprise for years and I finally get to pull the trigger. Girard's pyramid blowing up one panel after Xykon arrives was a big one, as was Malack's vampire reveal. Anything where I know the strip is going to shock everyone. I've been imagining the scene for MITD's eventual reveal for like nine years now, so I expect that may be the best of them all.

It throws some fuel on the whole 'recognizable' and 'impressive' debate lines; unfortunately they are still subjective criteria.

EDIT: OK; the first half is in the first post. But I think the second half (in context) adds some subtext.

[SpectralTime]

Just tried looking over all monsters with ties to the Astral Plane, on a hunch. Maybe that one of them is incorporeal most of the time and only solid when it wants to be, or something? it'd explain most of his defensive feats and how he knows about the astral plane, when earlier strips have carefully established him as ignorant of the planes generally.

Unfortunately, nothing really fits. Ghaele can only use their spells in human form, and are only incorporeal in globe form. Astral kraken have a high CR, so I was going to look for more information, before I saw they had the vermin subtype and no eyes.

Has there been a big search on monsters native to the Astral Plane? I'm not having much luck finding information...

[MesiDoomstalker]

Just tried looking over all monsters with ties to the Astral Plane, on a hunch. Maybe that one of them is incorporeal most of the time and only solid when it wants to be, or something? it'd explain most of his defensive feats and how he knows about the astral plane, when earlier strips have carefully established him as ignorant of the planes generally.

Unfortunately, nothing really fits. Ghaele can only use their spells in human form, and are only incorporeal in globe form. Astral kraken have a high CR, so I was going to look for more information, before I saw they had the vermin subtype and no eyes.

Has there been a big search on monsters native to the Astral Plane? I'm not having much luck finding information...

The Astral Plane, despite being the plane that connects all other planes (its essentially the multiverses Outer Space) there is very little that is native to it. Probably because its mostly empty nothingness. Like outer space.

[SpectralTime]

I thought the Phlogiston was the multiverse's outer space...

Also, thanks, and sorry.

[Mightymosy]

I don't really think it works intuitively, either. For starters it's empirically disproven: There was a Neutral Evil character on Xykon's team, and she had an obsessive crush on her Chaotic Evil teammate and hated her Lawful Evil teammate. But suppose that Tsukiko doesn't count, because "if you're NE" implies "and a perfectly rational actor." Try specific in-comic examples of the alignments: if a perfectly rational actor has to ally with either Xykon or Tarquin, which would they pick?

I'd pick Xykon, for my part. Yes, he might well kill me on a whim. He also might well not kill me on a whim. Thousands of hobgoblins have thus far survived being in close proximity to him. He's brutal and arbitrary, driven by whims, not vengeful enough to remember why he would want vengeance on the fighter who destroyed his body at Dorukan's Gate. Tarquin, meanwhile, apparently feels an active obligation to dominate (rape, torture, kill) everyone who crosses his path.

Did Azure City emphasize the wrong of Chaotic Evil, or of Lawful Evil? I don't know, but their traditional enemies were the Lawful Evil hobgoblins. Does the Empire of Blood stress the unacceptability of Chaotic Evil more than the unacceptability of other alignments? Trick question: the Empire of Blood only recognizes two moral stances vis-a-vis the "limited and unrealistic" alignment system: "Recognizes that Tarquin is Right about Everything" and "On Fire." Has anyone in the entire comic ever indicated a belief that Chaotic Evil is worse than Lawful Evil or vice versa, without it being "not-my-alignment is clearly less right than my-alignment"? Not that I can recall.

Rich has avoided any of the "Lawful Evil is Evil Lite and Chaotic Evil is Evil Full" tropes thus far, for which I am extremely grateful.

I agree with your conclusion and your gratefulness, but I think the choice between Tarquin and Xykon is not so easy!
It is true that Tarquin makes a point about destroying anyone who crosses or denies him, but on the other hand he shows pretty good care for people who he benefits from in general.

Consider Tarquin has run the Vector Legion scheme for what, a decade? Even before that, they were a team. And from what we are shown, we can assume they are a pretty reasonable form of an evil "all for one and one for all".

Also, he decided against killing Thog even though he wanted to, for really no good reason other than sticking to arbitrary rules.

My point is: as horrible as Tarquin is, you have a somewhat decent shot at surviving and even benefitting if you know and play by his rules. As Roy shows, this can backfire if something gets a higher priority than you. But I don't think Tarquin would just watch as a paladin smites you, as Xykon did with Redcloak, just on a whim. Not when you showed that Tarquin benefits from you living.

These things make me realise that Xykon and Tarquin are pretty good case studies of CE and LE as I understand them, at least.

And, as I said, I agree with your statement that LE is not evil light.

Maybe one could say: With LE people, it's easier if you are somehwat of a friend to them but worse if you are an enemy, whereas with CE people, it's tougher on associates because they can turn against you on a whim, but might be easier for other people, because maybe you can negotiate something with them because they don't feel compelled by some personal code to stick to the plan of killing you? (the panel of Haley as a ninja exemplifies nicely what I mean by that, even though it's not about evil)?