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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    The main thing I'm taking away from reading the MitD threads over the last year or two is;

    Since I haven't read the vast majority of the source books being discussed here, I just hope I'm not going "Huh?" when the reveal finally happens and I haven't the slightest idea what I'm looking at.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
    I helped name a thread! MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    The main thing I'm taking away from reading the MitD threads over the last year or two is;

    Since I haven't read the vast majority of the source books being discussed here, I just hope I'm not going "Huh?" when the reveal finally happens and I haven't the slightest idea what I'm looking at.
    I obviously cannot answer, but please consider this: do you trust Rich? He is very much aware of his readership, and how much we know about D&D (which for large segments of his readership is probably "little to not at all"). I have a strong belief that he will not write the reveal to depend on people recognising MitD. I believe that even if we cannot put a name to his species, the reveal will make it clear what it is, at least in a general sense. The best example I can think of is the "are these guys ghouls" panel. To this day, I don't think I can tell ghasts from ghouls or wights - but I can tell, at a glance, that they are undead. And if they are undead, they will have a set of characteristics. The same will be true, at a glance, of MitD.

    Indeed, whatever MitD turns out to be, I trust Rich to reveal it in such way that it will (a) fit with the clues and (b) show what else we can expect and possibly (c) name drop the species for those that want to google the rest themselves. But I also believe that those three things will be irrelevant to the scene. That the scene will be powerful not because of what MitD's species turns out to be, but because of what MitD is, what he has become since his first scene, and what his actions to affect the plot ultimately are.

    This guessing game? It's a sideshow. Something that entertains us between comics. Giving it more importance than that is setting yourself up for disappointment, because MitD is NOT his species. He is an individual, and Rich is quite clear that who you are is based on what you decide to be (i.e. the realisation that "I don't care if it says 'always evil': individuals can choose to be good or bad, and that broad brush else is an excuse to let players slaughter entire species for having the wrong skin colour, and that is just creepy and wrong").

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Do I trust Rich?

    Implicitly.

    And we already know what MitD is, because O-Chul revealed it a long time ago. He's a good man.

    So I take your point, and I'm not really that worried about the big moment. I expect there will be a humongously awesome reveal, with someone standing by to say, "Holy crap, it's an 'X'!!!" And probably Elan to ask, "How'd he fit under that tiny umbrella all this time?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
    I helped name a thread! MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Do I trust Rich?

    Implicitly.

    And we already know what MitD is, because O-Chul revealed it a long time ago. He's a good man.

    So I take your point, and I'm not really that worried about the big moment. I expect there will be a humongously awesome reveal, with someone standing by to say, "Holy crap, it's an 'X'!!!" And probably Elan to ask, "How'd he fit under that tiny umbrella all this time?"
    And a roach to say:

    "Was it even on your list?!"

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    I still think the MitD is a young Elder Titan, that has shape changed into something smaller. Elder Titian is a race, so there can be young versions of his kind. He could also be under a curse or something like that. He hasn't been around others of his kind and has no idea about that. His form is likely just something he made up instinctually, not knowing anything about anything. Newborns can't get around well, so he would have to change shape if he wanted to move around or eat. He doesn't know he can shape change. If he is young, he may not be full grown yet, but is still keeping the same size as he was as a baby. Thats changing now that he is more mature.

    They have so many abilities they can do practically anything, and pass themselves off as anything humanoid. They make great NPCs and antagonists, they aren't nearly as played out as dragons, demons, the undead, and gods are.
    Last edited by Knight.Anon; 2016-08-03 at 02:54 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Harry Potter boggarts are the other usual suggestion for "MitD looks different for different people".

    GW
    Also: Vorlons!
    (The very name of the website is a "Babylon 5" reference...)

    Quote Originally Posted by SpectralTime View Post
    I thought the Phlogiston was the multiverse's outer space...

    Also, thanks, and sorry.
    Technically true, but only in versions that have "Spelljammer". I suppose the Astral Plane is more like hyperspace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    And we already know what MitD is, because O-Chul revealed it a long time ago. He's a good man.
    He's Charlie Brown!
    Last edited by allenw; 2016-08-03 at 02:42 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by allenw View Post
    He's Charlie Brown!
    Well no wonder he talks, then! The trumpet voice won't come in until he's grown! The evidence for MitD being a juvenile of his species continues to accrue...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Kommander View Post
    Heartless? Those flaming letters spelled ELAN! How many sons can honestly say their father has murdered dozens of human beings just to show how much they care?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, I'm impressed that this topic went so far off topic that it ended up back at The Order of the Stick.
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    Well no wonder he talks, then! The trumpet voice won't come in until he's grown! The evidence for MitD being a juvenile of his species continues to accrue...
    So when the SBGH say "One of those" they mean "One of those round headed kids", and the key moment when MitD devours Xykon and Redcloak will be when they threaten the little red headed girl?
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    And since Charlie Brown never leaves his neighbourhood (at least not in the comic), no wonder they were surprised to find him in the jungle! The evidence is growing.....
    - As a human child, he would fit under the umbrella.
    - Schulz's people look quite different than Burlew's, which explains why the circus people were disgusted at MitD- to them, he looks like a mutated human.
    - Why wouldn't a wizard recognize Charlie Brown? Well, do you think wizards read newspaper comics?

    Last edited by Black Socks; 2016-08-08 at 07:43 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    So when the SBGH say "One of those" they mean "One of those round headed kids", and the key moment when MitD devours Xykon and Redcloak will be when they threaten the little red headed girl?
    So he's in an unrequited Love Triangle with Haley? How sad.
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default A joke suggestion that could be correct

    Those aren't eyes under that umbrella. Those are dead lights.

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    Curry as the 'monster' in the live action version of King's _IT_

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    Default Re: A joke suggestion that could be correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamiltonz View Post
    Those aren't eyes under that umbrella. Those are dead lights.

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    Curry as the 'monster' in the live action version of King's _IT_
    Oooooh ... "It" did have the ability to appear in many forms - and had children - and telepathic abilities, if not telekinetic.
    And would not normally be found in the jungle, or speaking common.
    It was possessed of great strength, and when it was defeated an earthquake occurred, so it probably could have caused one prior to being defeated.
    And it hung out in sewers and other dark, shadowy places.
    And no one would expect it to be a good "man".

    I propose "It" for Section 3D. When finally MitD confronts Xykon, it will say "We allll float down here!".
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

    "It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady

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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    The equivalent of that's already listed (as one of the more serious contenders, too). It's called "dream larva."
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    The equivalent of that's already listed (as one of the more serious contenders, too). It's called "dream larva."
    Hmmm. As an abomination, it would have
    Spell-Like Abilities

    All abominations have access to a variety of spells in the form of spell-like abilities, which they can use as 20th- or higher-level casters, depending on the abomination. No rule governs how many or how few spell-like abilities an abomination may claim.
    The Dream Larva has a specific list, which of course could be modified as needed to explain Escape scene and / or Earthquake as desired.

    A larvae by definition is an immature form of something, so an immature larvae is sort-of double immature.
    This ... is my signature finishing move!

    "It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady

    According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
    http://easydamus.com/character.html

    I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    If the list is desired, that strays to "something made up" territory. What makes a Dream Larvae with wish as an SLA different from a Uuvaduam with Wish as an SLA?
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Aren't Dream Larvae immune to mind control anyway? It's tough to check on mobile but that sounds familiar.
    I am: Neutral Good: -2 chaos, -21 evil and 15 balance!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Kommander View Post
    Heartless? Those flaming letters spelled ELAN! How many sons can honestly say their father has murdered dozens of human beings just to show how much they care?

    Tarquin's fatherly love is truly unique... or at least I hope it is!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, I'm impressed that this topic went so far off topic that it ended up back at The Order of the Stick.
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    Aren't Dream Larvae immune to mind control anyway? It's tough to check on mobile but that sounds familiar.
    Yeah, all abominations are immune to mind-effecting.
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    Aren't Dream Larvae immune to mind control anyway? It's tough to check on mobile but that sounds familiar.
    Why couldn't it be Bestow Curse or the Greater version? Gets around the time limitation, mind-affecting immunity doesn't matter, and it's quite malleable/broken.

    edit: or is it too soon to roil your foregone conclusions again
    Last edited by Lombard; 2016-08-12 at 12:38 AM.
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Why couldn't it be Bestow Curse or the Greater version? Gets around the time limitation, mind-affecting doesn't matter, and it's quite malleable/broken.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee's Ye Olde SRDe
    Bestow Greater Curse

    Transmutation
    Level: Demonologist 4, Bard 6, Cleric 7, Sorcerer 8, Wizard 8,
    Components: V, S,
    Casting Time: 1 action
    Range: Touch
    Target: Creature touched
    Duration: Permanent
    Saving Throw: Will negates
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    The caster places a curse on the creature touched, choosing one of the following three effects:
    One ability score is reduced to 1, or two ability scores take -6 penalties (to a minimum score of 1).
    -8 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, and skill checks.
    Each turn, the subject has a 25% chance to act normally; otherwise, he takes no action.

    A player may invent a new curse, but it should be no more powerful than those listed above.
    I would call what Xykon did more powerful than the explicit curses allowed.
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I would call what Xykon did more powerful than the explicit curses allowed.
    Well, if swallow whole is actually an ability the MiTD has on its stat sheet, all the curse is demanding is the use of one attack/ability use in a very specific scenario. Due to a failed will save. Of course we're treading into very subjective territory, as many of the invent-a-curses are by definition. As you can imagine, I disagree with your call.. and what a coincidence that Xykon has that unknown 8th level spell slot, and there's been some head-scratching over durations and recasts and whatnot.

    Would you at least agree that the spell could compel some form of action despite a mind-affecting immunity?
    "For you see, I theorize that the halfling does not possess a true sentient brain, like you or I, but rather a simple lump of nerve tissue that serves as a primitive "proto-brain" that can only process two emotional reactions to people: Hate or Lust."

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Well, if swallow whole is actually an ability the MiTD has on its stat sheet, all the curse is demanding is the use of one attack/ability use in a very specific scenario. Due to a failed will save. Of course we're treading into very subjective territory, as many of the invent-a-curses are by definition. As you can imagine, I disagree with your call.. and what a coincidence that Xykon has that unknown 8th level spell slot, and there's been some head-scratching over durations and recasts and whatnot.

    Would you at least agree that the spell could compel some form of action despite a mind-affecting immunity?
    Oh, I absolutely agree that a Bestow Curse could affect a creature with mind-affecting immunity. However, all examples of curses are simple, constant status effects; no listed curse has any contingency on another creature performing an action in order to trigger the curse. This is the first hurdle that, for me, knocks the Bestow Curse theory.
    Cuthalion's avatars rock. Like this very fine dragon he made me.

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Oh, I absolutely agree that a Bestow Curse could affect a creature with mind-affecting immunity. However, all examples of curses are simple, constant status effects; no listed curse has any contingency on another creature performing an action in order to trigger the curse. This is the first hurdle that, for me, knocks the Bestow Curse theory.
    Practicing the art of spinjitsu to make my point-

    Hard to see how "punch that guy in the face if he ever drops a chocolate cream pie in my lap" is more powerful than "the barbarian's CON/the rogue's DEX/etc. is permanently reduced to 1".
    Last edited by Lombard; 2016-08-12 at 01:56 AM.
    "For you see, I theorize that the halfling does not possess a true sentient brain, like you or I, but rather a simple lump of nerve tissue that serves as a primitive "proto-brain" that can only process two emotional reactions to people: Hate or Lust."

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Practicing the art of spinjitsu to make my point-

    Hard to see how "punch that guy in the face if he ever drops a chocolate cream pie in my lap" is more powerful than "the barbarian's CON/the rogue's DEX/etc. is permanently reduced to 1".
    Aha! I think I can do this!

    Imagine you're coding in BASIC. Permanently reducing a stat to 1 is a GOTO 20 line. Punching that guy if he drops food on me is an IF X=1, GOTO 30 line.
    Cuthalion's avatars rock. Like this very fine dragon he made me.

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Aha! I think I can do this!

    Imagine you're coding in BASIC. Permanently reducing a stat to 1 is a GOTO 20 line. Punching that guy if he drops food on me is an IF X=1, GOTO 30 line.
    Alternately, imagine you're coding in any more modern language, because why would you ever want to even think of using BASIC in this day and age?

    The fundamental note of "do thing" being less complex than "wait for thing, then do other thing" remains, though. A note: your code omits the loop for the waiting-indefinitely.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    I believe some listed uses of bestow curse make other people inherently hostile, or the creature believe all creatures of a certain type are enemies. Still, it is true that we haven't found any that are contingent.

    Another argument against it is that making a creature kill someone in a very specific way, doesn't really seem like a curse. Besides being ridiculously contingent, it isn't exactly detrimental to the creature cursed. IMO, it definitely seems more like mind control.

    In any case, when fighting the Pit Fiend, bestow curse didn't give swirly eyes.
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Alternately, imagine you're coding in any more modern language, because why would you ever want to even think of using BASIC in this day and age?
    Because I know BASIC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    A note: your code omits the loop for the waiting-indefinitely.
    Err..... because I kinda know BASIC.
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    The fundamental note of "do thing" being less complex than "wait for thing, then do other thing" remains, though. A note: your code omits the loop for the waiting-indefinitely.
    I don't believe anyone could argue that it isn't more complex. But the spell description says nothing about complexity, it only addresses power. Complexity does not equal power....

    "Power equals power!"
    "For you see, I theorize that the halfling does not possess a true sentient brain, like you or I, but rather a simple lump of nerve tissue that serves as a primitive "proto-brain" that can only process two emotional reactions to people: Hate or Lust."

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Bestow Curse lists statistical penalties it can inflict (which are doubled for the Greater version). It cripples the person it's cast on in various ways and it does so immediately. It doesn't have a delayed effect and it doesn't make them do anything, ever, including forgetting that it was cast. This isn't significantly better than suggesting maybe the spell Xykon used was Fireball.
    Last edited by Kish; 2016-08-12 at 02:59 PM.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Bestow Curse lists statistical penalties it can inflict (which are doubled for the Greater version). It cripples the person it's cast on in various ways. It doesn't make them do anything. Ever.
    That last one (75% of doing nothing each round) is sort of like making the target do something (if "nothing" is regarded as a type of "something"). Pretty big gap between that and a permanent hypnotic trigger thing, though.

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I don't believe anyone could argue that it isn't more complex. But the spell description says nothing about complexity, it only addresses power. Complexity does not equal power....

    "Power equals power!"
    OK, but the specified curse has a contingency built-in, effectively replicating the effect of the Contingency spell. Also, Contingency has a 10-minute casting time, can only be cast upon self, and has a 1 day/level duration. The curse allows for a replication of the Contingency spell, with an apparently instantaneous casting time, an apparently indefinite duration, and the ability to cast it on a target other than self. In addition to the actual behavior that you want to go off once the contingency is hit. That sure seems way more powerful than any of the specified curses.
    Cuthalion's avatars rock. Like this very fine dragon he made me.

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