MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

[nleseul]

well power attacking for that much would really only allow you to hit on a critical hit, no?

You can only power attack with a penalty not to exceed your BAB. I'm assuming that real Thog isn't actually a 283rd level barbarian. That's definitely an exaggeration for the sake of the joke. Again, I'm pretty confident that the "who can hit the lightest?" game is a pretty similar joke about how damage rolls work.

[Kish]

That Rich having made jokes of characters being improbably strong before means strength is never a hint is not an idea to be cast aside lightly--it should be thrown with great force (and luckily, the creature in the darkness is just the one to provide the appropriate amount of force).

[Shining Wrath]

That Rich having made jokes of characters being improbably strong before means strength is never a hint is not an idea to be cast aside lightly--it should be thrown with great force (and luckily, the creature in the darkness is just the one to provide the appropriate amount of force).

I don't think anyone has argued we don't know that MitD is ludicrously strong; I do argue, though, that unlike almost all creatures encountered in a D&D game he doesn't know what he can do. You don't typically see drow saying "Whoa! I can cast Fairy Fire? When did that happen?" in most games. It could be cute to have a wyrmling dragon discover it has a breath weapon, but again, it's not normal.

Part of the character is not knowing what he is, where he came from, and importantly for our discussions herein, what he is capable of doing. Or in the case of "hitting lightly", he can't control the power he knows he has. That makes it a little harder to figure him out.

[Kalirren]

I think the MitD is a plot hole monster.

It can do anything complicated it wants to, once - but not twice. And it can't do anything simple it wants to, ever.

It's also supremely innocent and naive, because it has to be - if it weren't, that behavior would be plot, and not a plot hole.

It induces disgust in the characters that view it because every plot hole is a hole in the fourth wall, and its existence therefore exposes the fact that they live in a narrative; that is why, in SoD, we see their reactions through the perspective of the MitD. We are literally looking through the MitD at the circus audience, as the circus audience looks through the MitD at us!

[Peelee]

I think the MitD is a plot hole monster.

It can do anything complicated it wants to, once - but not twice. And it can't do anything simple it wants to, ever.

It's also supremely innocent and naive, because it has to be - if it weren't, that behavior would be plot, and not a plot hole.

It induces disgust in the characters that view it because every plot hole is a hole in the fourth wall, and its existence therefore exposes the fact that they live in a narrative; that is why, in SoD, we see their reactions through the perspective of the MitD. We are literally looking through the MitD at the circus audience, as the circus audience looks through the MitD at us!

A.) How would this not be a thing The Giant made up?
2.) They characters know they are in a narrative, and are fine with it. They know about cutaway panels, keeping information dramatically secret, gag panels, etc.

[Generic-Guy]

A.) He has a point, madeup...
B.) They know that they are in a naritive, but they doesn't know in what. Tarkin didn't know he wasn't the main bad guy. They know the rules of the world, grafic updates and ingame-mechanics. But they can't just look at their character-sheets to find the dramatic past of other Chars or theyr familiar.

[Jay R]

MitD can forget he can teleport people (somehow), ...

He actually expected that to work, long before it really did, in strip #543.

: Poor Mr. Stiffly! I hoped really, really hard, and he still didn't escape. I don't know why it didn't work.
: Yeah, gee, I don't know why wanting it wasn't enough to make it happen.
: Me neither!

When we first saw it, it looked like a throwaway joke about how naive the MitD was. But after the escape scene, we can't dismiss the possibility that it was a clue.

[Keltest]

He actually expected that to work, long before it really did, in strip #543.

: Poor Mr. Stiffly! I hoped really, really hard, and he still didn't escape. I don't know why it didn't work.
: Yeah, gee, I don't know why wanting it wasn't enough to make it happen.
: Me neither!

When we first saw it, it looked like a throwaway joke about how naive the MitD was. But after the escape scene, we can't dismiss the possibility that it was a clue.

Based on his dialogue immediately after the escape scene, I think the only thing we can conclude from that line is that the MITD sometimes makes things happen off panel, something we already knew from the Earthquake scene.

[ClockShock]

You don't typically see drow saying "Whoa! I can cast Fairy Fire? When did that happen?" in most games. It could be cute to have a wyrmling dragon discover it has a breath weapon, but again, it's not normal.

page 2, panel 2

[Shining Wrath]

Based on his dialogue immediately after the escape scene, I think the only thing we can conclude from that line is that the MITD sometimes makes things happen off panel, something we already knew from the Earthquake scene.

From the earthquake scene we know he can do things he doesn't realize he can do. From the escape scene we know he can do things Xykon doesn't realize he can do; Xykon didn't suspect him at all even though he raged "Who stole my kills!?!?". From the tower scene we know he does things he didn't intend to do, or at least not as hard as he did them. His lack of self-awareness is not just a running joke but a key aspect of his character.

This makes me suspect his powers may be based in part on the maturity of his mind, which evidently requires decades to develop. It's a clue but a pretty vague one.

I'd like to make a proposal: Under 2a, "Age", we should note that MitD is evidently of a race where it is possible to be immature for decades, implying a lifespan in centuries. I think we can take it as definitive per Oona that he's still going to grow physically and we know his Dad was a lot bigger than he is.

This is not to say that his form now is necessarily like his adult form, only smaller (although I think Oona implies it); he may undergo some form of metamorphosis and currently be a larval form, or be a Slaad-type creature where form changes from one "adult" form to another. But I think we can assert that he is in some sense physically immature and has been so for decades.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'd like to make a proposal: Under 2a, "Age", we should note that MitD is evidently of a race where it is possible to be immature for decades, implying a lifespan in centuries.

No, it does not imply a lifespan of centuries. Elan and Thog demonstrate that you can be MitD-like well into adulthood of both their species, and they belong to some relatively short-lived ones. The idea he ages slowly is best served by the fact he is not yet full grown after at least 30 years, which is already captured under Maturity.

Grey Wolf

[nleseul]

This makes me suspect his powers may be based in part on the maturity of his mind, which evidently requires decades to develop. It's a clue but a pretty vague one.

Hmm. The thing is, we don't know whether that's a property of his species, or of his particular unusual background.

Let's consider that he's likely an epic CR creature, and he spent some unknown number of years of his "childhood" living in a jungle on the prime material plane. This is implied to be not his natural environment, and also likely an environment which is much less challenging to survive in than whatever his natural environment actually is. His experience is that nothing can hurt him, and anything around him that he wants to eat is pretty much is for the taking. Thus, he grows up naive and never really needing to exercise whatever his natural abilities are.

By contrast, an individual of his species who actually spent the same number of years living in some very dangerous Outer Plane might be very cynical and very accustomed to defending itself in every way possible.

The sheltered human child of a rich merchant would similarly have a different level of maturity and a different set of abilities than a poor homeless child who grew up in Greysky City, even if their chronological ages were the same.

In fact... the fact that MitD is so passive when captured by the hunters, and subsequently just as passive when living with Xykon even suggests to me that he was relatively mature when captured. His naive worldview had already developed and solidified based on his initial environment, and it didn't occur to him to question that worldview even when presented with a new situation that posed a danger that didn't trivially go away on its own.

[SpoonR]

First up, a couple questions that I didn't see in the latest thread:
1. Does Oona really know what MitD is, or just think so (because it resembles something)
2. Do we know any critters in Rich's setting (the one in the contest against Eberron)? That would have been 2002 or a bit earlier. Anything in there could be "D&D life, but not as we know it"

On to my candidates. First up, a Flatland (1884) higher-dimension creature. Imagine a creature drawn with a comic-book-realistic body. Bulging biceps vs stick arms = win. Or a fully 3-D creature and what we see is only a 2-D crosssection. Either way, infinitely more powerful than anything stick. MitD punching would be like us poking a piece of paper. Being attacked would be attempted papercuts. Instead of teleporting, it grabs V & O'chul and moves them through 3D space to someplace else on the 'map'. To recognize it, you need Knowledge(real world math and physics). Say, someone who can summon Titanium elementals. Weird reactions to seeing it could be "treelike arms, human torso" or "cross-section showing guts". A gate isn't a gate when you can just step over it in 3Dland.

Next, high-tech, like an Aasimovian robot. Looks like a golem, but can talk, and belongs in a dungeon or a wizard's lair. Icky reactions because of the uncanny valley. Has a high-tech teleportation ray. Naive because robot, plus maybe the 3 laws of robotics. Circus wizard might be a problem, but maybe he knows how to make a golem and this one has obvious 'not built that way' marks.

These two have more problems, but deserve mention. Bizarro (backward could explain 'light touch' being 'falcon punch'). And, one issue of Dragon had 'super-slaads', ones who advanced enough to become unique and got really weird abilties (example, can change slaad types by altering their color)

[Kish]

1. How would we know?
2. The one thing we can be absolutely sure of, is that the creature in the darkness is not a creature from that setting even if Rich is a pure liar who cackles with random maniacal glee every time someone quotes him having said the creature in the darkness isn't something he made up. Why? Because WotC owns all the rights to that setting and Rich signed an NDA preventing him from doing anything with it.

[Keltest]

First up, a couple questions that I didn't see in the latest thread:
1. Does Oona really know what MitD is, or just think so (because it resembles something)

Until we have reason to suspect that she might be mistaken or otherwise talking out of her behind, we generally need to assume that characters are telling the truth as they know it.

2. Do we know any critters in Rich's setting (the one in the contest against Eberron)? That would have been 2002 or a bit earlier. Anything in there could be "D&D life, but not as we know it"

Rich is on record as having said he did not make the MITD up himself, so it is unlikely that it is unique to a setting he created or sourcebook he wrote.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

1. Does Oona really know what MitD is, or just think so (because it resembles something)

We don't know. See Section 1h: Recognising MitD. What is said about the SBGH applies to Oona.

2. Do we know any critters in Rich's setting (the one in the contest against Eberron)? That would have been 2002 or a bit earlier. Anything in there could be "D&D life, but not as we know it"

Never heard of this. Someone else will need to field it.

On to my candidates. First up, a Flatland (1884) higher-dimension creature. Imagine a creature drawn with a comic-book-realistic body. Bulging biceps vs stick arms = win. Or a fully 3-D creature and what we see is only a 2-D crosssection. Either way, infinitely more powerful than anything stick. MitD punching would be like us poking a piece of paper. Being attacked would be attempted papercuts. Instead of teleporting, it grabs V & O'chul and moves them through 3D space to someplace else on the 'map'. To recognize it, you need Knowledge(real world math and physics). Say, someone who can summon Titanium elementals. Weird reactions to seeing it could be "treelike arms, human torso" or "cross-section showing guts". A gate isn't a gate when you can just step over it in 3Dland.

Unless any of that (especially the teleport part) is actually described in Flatland, I'd think that would all count as "invented by Rich". Furthermore, OotS world has three dimensions, so I'm not sure it could even apply. We see it as flat pictures, but the characters themselves are NOT the flatland 2-D beings.

Next, high-tech, like an Aasimovian robot. Looks like a golem, but can talk, and belongs in a dungeon or a wizard's lair. Icky reactions because of the uncanny valley. Has a high-tech teleportation ray. Naive because robot, plus maybe the 3 laws of robotics. Circus wizard might be a problem, but maybe he knows how to make a golem and this one has obvious 'not built that way' marks.

Asimov's robots don't have teleport technology. They are also copyrighted. Furthermore, while some were able to eat (for social occasions), none of them required food like MitD does (except Andrew, of course, but he has other issues).

Bizarro (backward could explain 'light touch' being 'falcon punch').

Copyrighted.

And, one issue of Dragon had 'super-slaads', ones who advanced enough to become unique and got really weird abilties (example, can change slaad types by altering their color)

[citation needed]

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

Dragon 221 has the Slaad Lords, "the closest thing the slaad have to deities," each of whom is unique and one of whom (Renbuu) can permanently transform a slaad from one type into another type at will, which means slaadi of weak types hang around him hopefully, and slaadi of strong types avoid him like the plague.

I'm not sure what, if anything, this has to do with the creature in the darkness. If he was a new slaad lord Rich made up he would be something Rich made up.

[Shining Wrath]

We don't know. See Section 1h: Recognising MitD. What is said about the SBGH applies to Oona.


Never heard of this. Someone else will need to field it.


Unless any of that (especially the teleport part) is actually described in Flatland, I'd think that would all count as "invented by Rich". Furthermore, OotS world has three dimensions, so I'm not sure it could even apply. We see it as flat pictures, but the characters themselves are NOT the flatland 2-D beings.


Asimov's robots don't have teleport technology. They are also copyrighted. Furthermore, while some were able to eat (for social occasions), none of them required food like MitD does (except Andrew, of course, but he has other issues).


Copyrighted.


[citation needed]

Grey Wolf

Rich Burlew was one of the finalists against Rich Baker for whose campaign WotC would choose and thereby make the author ... Rich. #Sorrynotsorry
As noted above, WotC owns the rights to that.

The Sphere in Flatland had, among other abilities, that of entering a room without passing through the wall or the door. His appearance terrified the protagonist, because he simply "grew" - first a single point, then expanding out to the full radius. The nearest analogue for OotS might be a creature that existed partially in, or could make conscious use of, "Hammerspace". "Where does Haley keep her arrows?" - the MitD can see them even when she's not using them. That would clearly be something Rich Made Up.

[Kish]

The joke would fall a great deal less flat were the winner of the contest not actually named Keith Baker.

[Ruck]

The joke would fall a great deal less flat were the winner of the contest not actually named Keith Baker.

Sure, winning a Wizards of the Coast contest to create a campaign setting was great, but nothing will top appearing as a minor character in Start of Darkness!

[Generic-Guy]

MitD is maybe a Mary Sue.

- Mary Sue's seem very rare in the OotS-Universe.
- A Mary Sue usally doesn't speak. They made a roll and say they are right.
- Some persons think of a Mery Sue a beautifull. The most does not...
- Mary Sue equipment number one: Ring whit protection of everything. But didn't think of adding papercuts.
- Like all Mary Sue's he got powers as the plot demands.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

MitD is maybe a Mary Sue.

- Mary Sue's seem very rare in the OotS-Universe.
- A Mary Sue usally doesn't speak. They made a roll and say they are right.
- Some persons think of a Mery Sue a beautifull. The most does not...
- Mary Sue equipment number one: Ring whit protection of everything. But didn't think of adding papercuts.
- Like all Mary Sue's he got powers as the plot demands.

You seem to have a very low opinion of Rich's writing ability.

A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character, who saves the day through unrealistic abilities. Often this character is recognized as an author insert or wish-fulfillment. None of that fits MitD, who is not a protagonist, is clearly not an author insert and has not resolved the plot of the story (nor is he likely to). Besides, we already had an obvious parody of a Mary Sue.

Finally, please see section 3b - Rich "The Giant" Burlew

Grey Wolf

[War-Wren]

You seem to have a very low opinion of Rich's writing ability.

A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character, who saves the day through unrealistic abilities. Often this character is recognized as an author insert or wish-fulfillment. None of that fits MitD, who is not a protagonist, is clearly not an author insert and has not resolved the plot of the story (nor is he likely to). Besides, we already had an obvious parody of a Mary Sue.

Finally, please see section 3b - Rich "The Giant" Burlew

Grey Wolf

Pardon my ignorance/stupidity, but I never thought of Tsukiko as anything like a Mary-Sue, not even a parody of one. It's presumably something I've missed in the forums or discussions elsewhere... What makes her a Mary-Sue parody?

EDIT: I followed the link about Section 3b... read the Light Hearted ideas in 3d (which I had missed previously)... oh my God, I nearly died reading the section on The Giant (not that one, That one!) That was hilarious! Thank you for the uplift in my day! :')

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Pardon my ignorance/stupidity, but I never thought of Tsukiko as anything like a Mary-Sue, not even a parody of one. It's presumably something I've missed in the forums or discussions elsewhere... What makes her a Mary-Sue parody?

Heterocromatic eyes , fascination with "the bad guys" and attempting to create a romance between her and an undead abomination.

ETA: To be clear, she is a parody in the same way as Tarquin is a parody: if they had been the main pro/antagonist of the story, they would have been successful in their actions. But they are not, they are secondary characters in someone else's story, which turns their attempts into a misguided attempt. They are in the wrong genre, so to speak.

GW

[Dr.Zero]

As a rule of thumb, I'd say that the main trait of a Mary Sue is:
*if the work is a fanfiction, a Mary Sue is a original character who steals spotlight/gain admiration from/overshadows the main protagonists. Moreover usually it has a special relation with the protagonists (descendant/ancestor, lost sibling, ex girl/boyfriend).

*if the work is original, like the OOTS is, I'd say it should be OP, usually a *gonist (but this is not really needed), save the day, be unique and special, usually have some very particular physical trait, and must usually be right on everything, etc.

Honestly I'm quite critic when I smell a Sue, but the MitD doesn't seem to fit the trope. It's OP, probably unique or quite rare, and has saved the day with O'Chul, but most of the time it was simply an OP idiot played for laughs, which for time has been developed for the final battle. No more Mary Sue than a big dragon used as pet by a villain can be in a any low fantasy story.
And, as the aforementioned dragon who realizes that the villain is mistreating it, or who befriends the princess and then saves her from the villain, and so on, he is being developed like a big OP misunderstood monster, which can have a sweet heart. I'd say it's simple an old trope unrelated with the Sues.

About Tsukiko being a parody, I don't know: to be a parody of a Sue, she had to be either a Sue on steroids (and she was far from being) or a wrong genre savvy Sue (a character who acts as a Sue to be proven totally wrong).
And maybe the latter can fit her story: she tries to be the lover of one of the *gonists, to overshadow the other *gonist, and yes, she had those heterochromatic eyes, she thought to be smart, she had usally things going her way, etc. And then (parody) she was proven wrong on the whole line (Xykon never really cared so much, Redcloak showed to be maybe even more in control than she and we could possibly think, and she was utterly and effortlessly defeated).

So she maybe can qualify as a parody, but to be sure we should ask to the author if she was intended to be. :)

[War-Wren]

Heterocromatic eyes , fascination with "the bad guys" and attempting to create a romance between her and an undead abomination.

ETA: To be clear, she is a parody in the same way as Tarquin is a parody: if they had been the main pro/antagonist of the story, they would have been successful in their actions. But they are not, they are secondary characters in someone else's story, which turns their attempts into a misguided attempt. They are in the wrong genre, so to speak.

GW

As a rule of thumb, I'd say that the main trait of a Mary Sue is:
*if the work is a fanfiction, a Mary Sue is a original character who steals spotlight/gain admiration from/overshadows the main protagonists. Moreover usually it has a special relation with the protagonists (descendant/ancestor, lost sibling, ex girl/boyfriend).

*if the work is original, like the OOTS is, I'd say it should be OP, usually a *gonist (but this is not really needed), save the day, be unique and special, usually have some very particular physical trait, and must usually be right on everything, etc.

Honestly I'm quite critic when I smell a Sue, but the MitD doesn't seem to fit the trope. It's OP, probably unique or quite rare, and has saved the day with O'Chul, but most of the time it was simply an OP idiot played for laughs, which for time has been developed for the final battle. No more Mary Sue than a big dragon used as pet by a villain can be in a any low fantasy story.
And, as the aforementioned dragon who realizes that the villain is mistreating it, or who befriends the princess and then saves her from the villain, and so on, he is being developed like a big OP misunderstood monster, which can have a sweet heart. I'd say it's simple an old trope unrelated with the Sues.

About Tsukiko being a parody, I don't know: to be a parody of a Sue, she had to be either a Sue on steroids (and she was far from being) or a wrong genre savvy Sue (a character who acts as a Sue to be proven totally wrong).
And maybe the latter can fit her story: she tries to be the lover of one of the *gonists, to overshadow the other *gonist, and yes, she had those heterochromatic eyes, she thought to be smart, she had usally things going her way, etc. And then (parody) she was proven wrong on the whole line (Xykon never really cared so much, Redcloak showed to be maybe even more in control than she and we could possibly think, and she was utterly and effortlessly defeated).

So she maybe can qualify as a parody, but to be sure we should ask to the author if she was intended to be. :)

Ok, makes sense and I can see the paralells... parrelells?... para... similarities
Last question, cos I'm aware that Tsukiko is not MitD, and so slightly derailing the thread... what is the significance of the heterochromatic eyes in connection with her being a Trope/Parody/Mary-Sue type? Is it cos it's an overused sign that the person is 'super-special-in-every-way', and clearly must be awesome?

[Kish]

Yes. Well, "special" eyes are; I believe violet was the original.

[Peelee]

what is the significance of the heterochromatic eyes in connection with her being a Trope/Parody/Mary-Sue type? Is it cos it's an overused sign that the person is 'super-special-in-every-way', and clearly must be awesome?

Not to put too fine a point on it.... yes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ok, makes sense and I can see the paralells... parrelells?... para... similarities
Last question, cos I'm aware that Tsukiko is not MitD, and so slightly derailing the thread... what is the significance of the heterochromatic eyes in connection with her being a Trope/Parody/Mary-Sue type? Is it cos it's an overused sign that the person is 'super-special-in-every-way', and clearly must be awesome?

It is an early warning sign. In a lot of Mary Sue-ish fan fiction, it is one of those things that pops up way too often, or at least was ten years ago hen I dipped my toes into the fanfiction waters. Not sure if that might still be the case, admittedly, not having read fanfiction in ages, but then again Tsukiko is not recent either.

GW

[War-Wren]

Cool, thanks guys

I think I missed that aspect of Mary-Sue culture in my fan-fic dabblings too. Then again, most of mine relied on the existing characters, and any new characters I brought in (IMHO) were well balanced and had a purpose without stealing the show.

Now that I think of it, I was guilty of having 1 character with those eyes in a Werewolf: Apocalypse RP I ran... but he was a weird mystic type, secretly a Black Spiral Dancer, that was always going to end up being one of the 2 main bad guys of the story... So hopefully dodged a bullet, what with him being a major antagonist and all.

He actually ended up being a bad guy that the players still shudder about when I mention his name, so, winning!

Anyway... MitD...