Rules Question: Heroics + Martial Study

[Zarion]

I don't care to try and convince you anymore. I and my current and probably future groups will use this method, and you can use yours. Cause that's what it is, just a method, which unfortunately doesn't have a sourcebook to reference.

Cause if it did then RAW would be RAW. RAWCEPTION!!

[Gallowglass]

Maybe we all can't, or maybe we're all just idiots fighting over the interpretation of a method of interpretation of a confusing system of rules of a made-up game.

All I know I know is that without meaning to, I got a majority of the thread to agree on the original question, and on stacking rules for heroics. Cool.

There you go! See! You didn't need us to validate you, you found your validation all by yourself!

Everybody's happy!

[Zarion]

There you go! See! You didn't need us to validate you, you found your validation all by yourself!

Everybody's happy!

Yay, happiness for everyone.

To sadly get off my happy horse and onto a similar but hopefully not as contentious topic. As a faster if you could use this method to get fighter feats, not martial study/stance, either with stacking or not. What would you get?

In my case as an artificer:
Combat Focus
Combat Awareness
Combat Vigor (fast healing ftw)
Mounted Combat
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Steadfast Determination?
Veteran Knowledge? (knowledge devotion?)

[Zarion]

All hail the cult of Zarion? The Cult of 'RAW' (*Wink Wink Nudge Nudge*)

Unfortunately there isn't currently a cult of zarion, yet. But if your interested in forming one, I'd give you my blessing.

[Gallowglass]

Yay, happiness for everyone.

To sadly get off my happy horse and onto a similar but hopefully not as contentious topic. As a faster if you could use this method to get fighter feats, not martial study/stance, either with stacking or not. What would you get?

In my case as an artificer:
Combat Focus
Combat Awareness
Combat Vigor (fast healing ftw)
Mounted Combat
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Steadfast Determination?
Veteran Knowledge? (knowledge devotion?)

That's an interesting question. Because there isn't really all that many cases or scenarios where having a fighter bonus feat for the duration of an encounter is all that helpful to the single classed wizard. They just don't do what the fighter is doing with their actions.

That's why the key to heroics is in its versatility. You can access a specific feat in the rare situation where it is useful to you rather than spending a feat slot on a feat that normally is useless to you.

If the wizard finds himself in a situation where he has no choice but to choke up on his quarterstaff and start swinging, then power attack is better to have than not to have.

But really, neutral of knowing what the scenario is, its hard to rank fighter feats by usefulness to the wizard.

I would start with ranged feats like precise shot because the wizard is LIKELY to make some ranged (touch) attacks over the course of his normal adventuring day.

Combat Focus
+2 will save after your first hit. That's useful.

Combat Awareness
requires +12 BAB, so you dont' qualify until epic levesl.

Combat Vigor (fast healing ftw)

requires +9 BAB so for a wizard, they can't get it until 18th level? at 18th level fast heal 2 isn't much of a factor.

Mounted Combat

well... that's nice for the horse.

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot

these are all nice for the ranged blaster type. But you are usually dealing with touch attacks so they are only somewhat useful.

Steadfast Determination?

I think all my wizards have had better wisdom than constitution but it could be helpful.

Veteran Knowledge? (knowledge devotion?)

I admit I play pathfinder so I don't know how this mechanic works.

So, to me, Heroics is MORE useful for a Gish type than a pure caster... and its really useful to cast on another party member who can access higher end feats when they already have some prerequisites and high BAB taken care of.

[Zarion]

Combat Vigor (fast healing ftw)

requires +9 BAB so for a wizard, they can't get it until 18th level? at 18th level fast heal 2 isn't much of a factor.

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot

these are all nice for the ranged blaster type. But you are usually dealing with touch attacks so they are only somewhat useful.

Steadfast Determination?

I think all my wizards have had better wisdom than constitution but it could be helpful.

As mentioned my character is an artificer so just going pure artificer I would get BAB +9 at 12th level. I like mounts for casters, it's easy to get around concentration, and then you have two free moves. The ranged feats work great for wands and scrolls. Wis is completely useless to me except for Will. Also the point of this item is to get easy access to feats that suit your play style.

[Zarion]

You don't have to be a caster either, I'm just asking what fighter feats would you put in your build if you could have a lot of them for cheap.

[Renen]

Well... his viewpoint and his "40-60" friends who he plays with who uniformly and universely agree with him about it. *nods*

And the best part is that if that is actually true, then that is an argument AGAINST him. Since having that many people agree on something looks like bandwagon effect rather than actual critical thinking about rules.

When you ask many people the same question and they all give the same answer, when the question can potentially be interpreted in variety of ways, then something is wrong. I mean, I'd be more convinced if 80% of his friends agreed with him, than 100%

[Deophaun]

There actually is an existing magic item that functions a bit like a reusable wand (stuck with a standard action activation, however). It's called an eternal wand, it's in the MIC, and it does not follow the pricing guidelines. But, on the bright side, an eternal wand of heroics is a thing that exists in RAW; no DM adjudication required.

And the best part is that if that is actually true, then that is an argument AGAINST him. Since having that many people agree on something looks like bandwagon effect rather than actual critical thinking about rules.

I played with a large group where everyone believed that each attack in a full attack was a standard action, which is why no one allowed ToB, because using four strikes in a single turn was totally broken and WotC were idiots to make something like that. Don't bother trying to convince anyone otherwise, because that was how they always played it, and that's how everyone else in the group was playing it, so it must be correct.

[Thurbane]

I think the two sides of the RAW debate have agreed to disagree, which is a good thing. Sometimes it's the best compromise that can be reached.

You don't have to be a caster either, I'm just asking what fighter feats would you put in your build if you could have a lot of them for cheap.

Not sure how good they are for your particular build, but some of my favorite (less common) Fighter bonus feats include:
Brutal Strike
Combat Intuition
Constant Guardian
Find Flaw
Goad
Intimidating Strike
Melee Evasion
Reckless Charge
Shield Ward
Short Haft
Vexing Flanker

...some have hefty reqs, and some aren't all that powerful, but I like those for various reasons.

[Zarion]

Not sure how good they are for your particular build, but some of my favorite (less common) Fighter bonus feats include:
Brutal Strike
Combat Intuition
Constant Guardian
Find Flaw
Goad
Intimidating Strike
Melee Evasion
Reckless Charge
Shield Ward
Short Haft
Vexing Flanker

...some have hefty reqs, and some aren't all that powerful, but I like those for various reasons.

Got a build in mind that would use these, or are they just ones you like in general?

[Thurbane]

Got a build in mind that would use these, or are they just ones you like in general?

Just in general - things like Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Robilar's Gambit, Martial Study etc. get mentioned all the time, those are just a few of the lesser used ones that I like.