Relationship Woes and Advice XXVII: Sarcasm Will Not Be Tolerated

[Eldariel]

Thanks, this is actually quite a helpful way of looking at it. I'd say platonic attraction is definitely high, romantic attraction is also quite high (which is why I had a confuse in the first place) but aesthetic and sexual attraction are very low, which is a problem for me. I do feel bad about that, though, because I think one of the primary reasons for that is that he's quite overweight, and that feels shallow. I dunno.

Biological attraction is largely superficial - that's just how organisms in general are. That's perfectly fine - it's awfully unnatural to try and completely ignore your body. Humans just simply aren't completely rational creatures and I don't think that's even necessarily something worth striving for. The body of the other party indicates various things that then tell our "subconsciousness" how "good" (healthy/rich in valued qualities/etc.) a mate they would be. It would be silly not to utilise that information.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't read the latest post before posting; should I delete this?

[Heliomance]

Biological attraction is largely superficial - that's just how organisms in general are. That's perfectly fine - it's awfully unnatural to try and completely ignore your body. Humans just simply aren't completely rational creatures and I don't think that's even necessarily something worth striving for. The body of the other party indicates various things that then tell our "subconsciousness" how "good" (healthy/rich in valued qualities/etc.) a mate they would be. It would be silly not to utilise that information.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't read the latest post before posting; should I delete this?

Nah, it's fine. What I found a bit uncomfortable was people holding forth on what I think, and deciding for themselves what I actually feel. You didn't do that.

[Crow]

I wasn't claiming to know how you feel. I was just explaining how I would have approached it, from my understanding of the situation.

[messy1349]

This is an update, and possibly a conclusion, to a conundrum I've been dealing with the past few months.

Big, big thanks again to everyone who's taken the time to read my original post and follow-up post share their thoughts. Posting here has been helpful even if things haven't worked out the way I'd hoped.

Last week my friend and I texted about getting together over the weekend. On Friday afternoon she suggested a day and time that worked for both of us. I spent Friday evening and Saturday morning feeling nervous and confused about what to do.

Do I want to see her? Will I be able to relax and be a friend? Will I be able to control myself? How will I react if she mentions the guy she's dating? Can I accept her unconventional lifestyle? Can I accept the state of our friendship? Will I freak out? Will I get nervous? Angry? Possessive? Controlling? Judgmental? Nasty?

An hour and a half before the time she suggested meeting I decided that it was too much and I couldn't see her. Then I couldn't figure out how to tell her. In the end I decided to be honest (although I'm not sure why I'd consider anything else). So I texted, "I don't know what's going on with me. I can't get together. Take care." That was a week ago and there's been no communication since.

It would seem that this friendship is over and that's disappointing. But I'm not feeling that upset about it, probably because this was an experiment from day one and the mourning process already happened (when I cried over our conflicting lifestyles and the possible loss of my friend before my initial post). Despite what's happened I'm glad I gave it a try and I'm grateful for the experience. It was like having another sister for a few months.

So that's that.

[Coidzor]

Just spoilering this because it's not really a request for help, just sort of an observation, so replies (if there are any) needn't be spoilered as well.

Spoiler: an observation

Show

Something I think I've realised the past couple of days... I think I might actually be kind of a jealous partner. Not the most enviable trait you want in a romantic partner... Although maybe it's kind of a weird jealousy, maybe not. It's certainly not an aggressive one, I don't get hostile or anything and wouldn't dream of it. It's more self-defeating, if anything. I get a little uncomfortable if I know she's done something with a past partner that she hasn't done with me, or if we're doing something she's done with a past partner... For some reason it makes me feel like our relationship is just treading on long-explored ground for her. It's probably just the initial weirdness of somebody who's never had a romantic relationship dating somebody who's had several, that sense that you need to try and distinguish yourself from or 'rise above' the previous ones-- though I know rationally, taking her at her word, I don't need to worry about that. On its own, it's not really a problem, because I know that twinge of envy is a silly one, but throw the neurosis/anxiety in there and it can be problematic for me.

From what I've read and heard and experienced, anxiety can definitely contribute to being jealous. As can being in an LDR or being in one's first relationship.

I don't really know how to advise you as far as thinking about the fact that she's experienced things before, though. That's just a fact of life when it comes to dating, even if one sticks primarily to introverted women with sheltered upbringings.

[lio45]

I wasn't claiming to know how you feel. I was just explaining how I would have approached it, from my understanding of the situation.

No one was claiming to know how you (Helio) felt, but, as is often the case in these advice matters, it wasn't really possible to put our two cp in without involving how you felt.

The inevitable downside of asking for advice in here is that you might find it feels slightly awkward to you to see your situation discussed by strangers on the internet. IMO it's not too unreasonable a price to pay, but no one's forcing anyone :)

[Douglas]

I'm really getting fed up with the low response rate in online dating. I'm keeping at it, but it's hard to not get discouraged. Got any suggestions for potentially better options in the San Francisco Bay area for a 32 year old software engineer?

Or heck, maybe I'll hit the lottery and someone suitable in this thread lives nearby.

[Taet]

I'm really getting fed up with the low response rate in online dating. I'm keeping at it, but it's hard to not get discouraged. Got any suggestions for potentially better options in the San Francisco Bay area for a 32 year old software engineer?

Or heck, maybe I'll hit the lottery and someone suitable in this thread lives nearby.

But I never come to this thread...

Is Sacramento too far and who are you looking for? I know a few people from the gaming store who might be interested and are interesting. Not me though, I am not dating.

[Douglas]

But I never come to this thread...

Is Sacramento too far and who are you looking for? I know a few people from the gaming store who might be interested and are interesting. Not me though, I am not dating.

Sacramento is approximately a two hour drive for me, which would be possible but a serious inconvenience. I suppose I could put up with it for someone I really like.

Ideally, I'm looking for the elusive combination of a gamer, fantasy/sci-fi nerd, near my age, physically attractive to me (which mostly means not black* and average-ish size and figure), and interested in me. I can find the first four readily enough with some searching on OkCupid. Getting one of them to respond is rather more difficult.

* I have nothing against black people intellectually and ideologically, but I'm just not attracted to them.

[TechnOkami]

Sacramento is approximately a two hour drive for me, which would be possible but a serious inconvenience. I suppose I could put up with it for someone I really like.

Ideally, I'm looking for the elusive combination of a gamer, fantasy/sci-fi nerd, near my age, physically attractive to me (which mostly means not black* and average-ish size and figure), and interested in me. I can find the first four readily enough with some searching on OkCupid. Getting one of them to respond is rather more difficult.

* I have nothing against black people intellectually and ideologically, but I'm just not attracted to them.

Welcome to the boat I've been in for a while, where I decided, "F@ck the boat.", and drilled the holes in it myself to let it sink.

Translated, what this means is I really don't care anymore, and I am not compelled strongly enough by the idea of a relationship with someone to go out and actively seek it, especially since it's caused so much self doubt, pointless anxiety and general feelings of not being in control of myself.

As was done with someone else's account, if you give us a link we could collaboratively critique it and try to give you pointers you can work on. Other than that, best of luck to you.

[lio45]

I can find the first four readily enough with some searching on OkCupid. Getting one of them to respond is rather more difficult.

The ultra-low response rate you're experiencing is perfectly normal. The trick is to resolve that you won't let yourself be discouraged by that, and you'll take the necessary steps to make it work.

For starters, I would recommend temporarily lowering some of your standards, in order to enlarge the pool of girls you find interesting enough to message.

I mean, surely, at this point, you'd still be interested in at least going to a couple dates with a gamer sci-fi/fantasy nerd you find moderately attractive, or a sci-fi/fantasy nerd you find attractive but who isn't that much of a gamer, wouldn't you?

Then, start (if not already done) to hone your mass-messaging skills. Set a goal for yourself like "tonight, I'm messaging at least 20 girls".

Chances are, 24 hours later, you might find at least one or two replies in your inbox, and those are likely at that stage to turn into conversations and lead to dates in person.

If not, then repeat. Following evening, you message another 20. Or 30. Then another 30 the following day. If you run out of interesting girls in the Bay Area on OKC, try POF in parallel.

Of course, you can't afford to spend 10 minutes on each of these messages. You have to mass-produce them, recycling some of the content, yet making sure they look personalized enough (you should obviously have read the profile of each girl you find interesting enough to message).

[ArlEammon]

Help? PM me? Please?

[Crow]

My inbox is open if you are open to blunt advice.

[Coidzor]

So you want another person in the California tech industry, essentially, and haven't hit it off with any colleagues or women at industry events.

That is a pickle.

If you were willing to relax the age requirements and look further down the totem pole, that might help increase the pool, but if you actually have a position of authority that complicates subordinate dating both ethically and professionally.

Well, when you put it like that... I kinda have to kick myself that somehow my first relationship has ended up being with a more experienced woman who lives thousands of miles away during a bad period in my anxiety, ahaha. What a fun combination of circumstances.

Well, either back away if it starts to overwhelm you or step up and be aware of the pitfalls all around you, yeah.

I'm not exactly Mr. Sunshine and Daisies over here, though. (Or was it Mr. Sunshine and Roses?)

So you'll probably want a person who has normative capacity to be happy to sound in on things before jumping to do anything just on my say-so, or inferred from something I said but didn't directly state.

That last one especially might lead to trouble due to some of my chronic difficulties with speaking.

[druid91]

So, this is a bit of an odd conundrum, compared to my past conundrums of fixating on someone beforehand, pinning all kinds of hopes and dreams upon a relationship with them... and then asking them out.

Anyway, long story short, recently started playing Pokemon Go, and there's a local gathering spot where there's a ton of Gyms and Pokestops all within walking distance of one another. So, you get a lot of people playing it at once.

Normally I just kind of walk around and ignore everyone around me. I might exchange the sort of automatic pleasantries that are reflexive at this point but nothing really intentional.

Today was slightly different in that I ran into an attractive girl running all over the place catching pokemon, and after a short bout of indecision decided to say something.

Only she didn't hear me at first, my voice apparently being too quiet. Mind you this isn't the first time I've had this problem though it is the first time it's applied to dating. But I tend to be very quiet and hesitant when speaking to 'strangers' a holdover I'm guessing from being younger that I never really socialized enough to grow out of. Oftentimes I feel like I need a reason to even bother approaching someone I don't already know. Or need to be thrown into socializing with them by circumstance.

It just seems like.... speaking to people I don't already know is violating some sort of taboo. And that makes me hesitant and thus quiet and thus sets things off to an awkward start even when I'm not trying to talk to a girl who interests me.

[lio45]

I'm really getting fed up with the low response rate in online dating. I'm keeping at it, but it's hard to not get discouraged. Got any suggestions for potentially better options in the San Francisco Bay area for a 32 year old software engineer?

Or heck, maybe I'll hit the lottery and someone suitable in this thread lives nearby.

You know what... I challenge you to come back in here and tell us (proudly) "I have just written at least 20 girls on OKC".

Do I hear you saying "Challenge Accepted"?

If you're actually getting an abnormally low response rate -- we can't tell based on what you've said -- then maybe in that case there are indeed some things that could be improved in your profile (and/or your methods of approching girls).

[Douglas]

Of course, you can't afford to spend 10 minutes on each of these messages. You have to mass-produce them, recycling some of the content, yet making sure they look personalized enough (you should obviously have read the profile of each girl you find interesting enough to message).

That's exactly the sort of behavior that causes this problem in the first place, along with the paired problem of women getting too many messages, and I'd rather not contribute to it if I don't have to. I might resort to it eventually, and I have been trying to send more messages without resorting to form letters, but it's rather distasteful to me. I'd prefer something like local singles-matching events with an appropriate demographics focus and high female attendance, but I have no idea what might be available for that.

So you want another person in the California tech industry, essentially, and haven't hit it off with any colleagues or women at industry events.

That is a pickle.

If you were willing to relax the age requirements and look further down the totem pole, that might help increase the pool, but if you actually have a position of authority that complicates subordinate dating both ethically and professionally.

I telecommute, and of the attractive women I noticed in a recent office gathering, one was pregnant and the other had a ring I suspect was for either engagement or marriage, so no availability there. As for industry events, that's not something I've ever really gotten into. Got any events to suggest?

[lio45]

That's exactly the sort of behavior that causes this problem in the first place, along with the paired problem of women getting too many messages, and I'd rather not contribute to it if I don't have to. I might resort to it eventually, and I have been trying to send more messages without resorting to form letters, but it's rather distasteful to me. I'd prefer something like local singles-matching events with an appropriate demographics focus and high female attendance, but I have no idea what might be available for that.

Keywords in bold. If you want online dating to work for you, you have to.

I'm also in mostly-male circles, my last dates before I started online dating a few years ago (I've had my current gf for 2 years) were a friend of my younger sister, and a girl I met through friends of friends. I resisted online dating as long as I could, but I figured, I have to get into my head that it's how people meet nowadays, and I managed to shake the stigma off for me.

I still remember that after I registered, I spent a while looking at profiles, then I found the perfect girl... wrote her a super long letter... of course, in retrospect, she might even have been an inactive profile, like maybe half of them out there.

Needless to say, I quickly figured out that I couldn't afford to assume my message would be read and replied to. I had to develop methods for "fishing" on a massive, semi-automated scale. Everyone I know agrees that ultra-low response rates are just a fact of life in online dating. We have to live with it, and invent tools to try to get around it.

On the other hand, if you have local options to try to meet new people, I heartily recommend trying them as well. Any sports you do? You might be able to find and join a league. Otherwise, for gaming, I'd imagine there are ways to meet new people too, although I'd tend to think that for any attractive girl who's also a gaming fan and a nerd, you're likely to have intense competition -- the guy/girl ratio for her would be absolutely in her favor.

[druid91]

Keywords in bold. If you want online dating to work for you, you have to.

I'm also in mostly-male circles, my last dates before I started online dating a few years ago (I've had my current gf for 2 years) were a friend of my younger sister, and a girl I met through friends of friends. I resisted online dating as long as I could, but I figured, I have to get into my head that it's how people meet nowadays, and I managed to shake the stigma off for me.

I still remember that after I registered, I spent a while looking at profiles, then I found the perfect girl... wrote her a super long letter... of course, in retrospect, she might even have been an inactive profile, like maybe half of them out there.

Needless to say, I quickly figured out that I couldn't afford to assume my message would be read and replied to. I had to develop methods for "fishing" on a massive, semi-automated scale. Everyone I know agrees that ultra-low response rates are just a fact of life in online dating. We have to live with it, and invent tools to try to get around it.

On the other hand, if you have local options to try to meet new people, I heartily recommend trying them as well. Any sports you do? You might be able to find and join a league. Otherwise, for gaming, I'd imagine there are ways to meet new people too, although I'd tend to think that for any attractive girl who's also a gaming fan and a nerd, you're likely to have intense competition -- the guy/girl ratio for her would be absolutely in her favor.

Or you could put a certain amount of thought into who you talk to and how.

You'll have low response rates, but so what? So will the mass fishers.

[lio45]

Or you could put a certain amount of thought into who you talk to and how.

You'll have low response rates, but so what? So will the mass fishers.

Just so it's clear, you always should put some thought into your mass-sent messages. They always need to be custom to a degree, and long enough (not just a lame "hey").

Low response rates are going to be a lot more discouraging when you're spending a long time crafting each message. You generally don't want to waste that much time.

[Lethologica]

It just seems like.... speaking to people I don't already know is violating some sort of taboo. And that makes me hesitant and thus quiet and thus sets things off to an awkward start even when I'm not trying to talk to a girl who interests me.

Well, pokemon go offers a unique opportunity to practice. Talk to a bunch of other players you don't know and you'll alleviate the general nervousness of talking to strangers, in a context where it doesn't really matter if you screw up a few times. Then you only have to worry about the specific nervousness of talking to someone you're interested in.

[Aedilred]

It just seems like.... speaking to people I don't already know is violating some sort of taboo. And that makes me hesitant and thus quiet and thus sets things off to an awkward start even when I'm not trying to talk to a girl who interests me.

This sounds like some form of social anxiety to me. Unfortunately, there's no easy way to resolve this; I had therapy for it myself earlier this year, and while there is a lot of stuff you can do privately to help you rationalise things, the real kicker is actually getting out there and talking to people, so that you get used to having conversations which are neutral/positive experiences and the scenario as a whole becomes less intimidating.

Obviously, it's particularly bad when it's not just some random person but someone you're trying to impress on some level.

[Coidzor]

Or you could put a certain amount of thought into who you talk to and how.

You'll have low response rates, but so what? So will the mass fishers.

Well, for starters, you'll spend time agonizing over a perfect message for no real return when you could have instead been practicing to figure out the nucleus of what you want to say while reading a woman's profile and looking at her pictures and gone to bat.

Unless your tastes are so limited that you have to try hard to gain the attention of the one person you find that suits them per week of looking through matches and people in the area, you need to be able to cover a fair bit of ground even if you don't message every woman you gander at.

And being a man, you have to take on some amount of mass messaging to put out the volume you need in order to score a hit with a 5% response rate in anything approaching a semi-reasonable amount of time.

Dating site messages are like timed writing sections, not research papers. The right kind of thinking and writing has to be learned as it doesn't come naturally to most people.

I'd prefer something like local singles-matching events with an appropriate demographics focus and high female attendance, but I have no idea what might be available for that.


I telecommute, and of the attractive women I noticed in a recent office gathering, one was pregnant and the other had a ring I suspect was for either engagement or marriage, so no availability there. As for industry events, that's not something I've ever really gotten into. Got any events to suggest?

I think you're going to have to deal with compromising on the demographic focus, age restriction, or male-female ratio, alas. Other than maybe a fantasy book club.

Huh. Living with Frisco prices and telecommuting. I hope you're getting to enjoy the area. Have you looked at meetups in the area?

I don't know much about tech industry conferences, conventions, and trade shows, I just know they happen and people network and occasionally make connections with peers with similar interests and even hook up.

[lio45]

Well, for starters, you'll spend time agonizing over a perfect message for no real return when you could have instead been practicing to figure out the nucleus of what you want to say while reading a woman's profile and looking at her pictures and gone to bat.

Unless your tastes are so limited that you have to try hard to gain the attention of the one person you find that suits them per week of looking through matches and people in the area, you need to be able to cover a fair bit of ground even if you don't message every woman you gander at.

And being a man, you have to take on some amount of mass messaging to put out the volume you need in order to score a hit with a 5% response rate in anything approaching a semi-reasonable amount of time.

Dating site messages are like timed writing sections, not research papers. The right kind of thinking and writing has to be learned as it doesn't come naturally to most people.

Exactly.

Don't be afraid of "contributing to the problem". If your messages are decent, you're not contributing to anything bad by sending messages to girls. In fact, if your messages aren't "hey" or "hi ur cute wanna ****?" or containing pictures of your genitals, then you're probably actually contributing to improving the average. So think of it that way.

The fundamental dynamics of online dating is that the men are the suitors and the women are the suitees. As a man, you have to be the one reaching out. You'll have to accept that if you want to have a chance of making online dating work for you.

[druid91]

Well, for starters, you'll spend time agonizing over a perfect message for no real return when you could have instead been practicing to figure out the nucleus of what you want to say while reading a woman's profile and looking at her pictures and gone to bat.

Unless your tastes are so limited that you have to try hard to gain the attention of the one person you find that suits them per week of looking through matches and people in the area, you need to be able to cover a fair bit of ground even if you don't message every woman you gander at.

And being a man, you have to take on some amount of mass messaging to put out the volume you need in order to score a hit with a 5% response rate in anything approaching a semi-reasonable amount of time.

Dating site messages are like timed writing sections, not research papers. The right kind of thinking and writing has to be learned as it doesn't come naturally to most people.

Ok I've messaged maybe.... 30-40 people total over three years and gotten at last check, 11 responses. Some of whom were lengthy correspondences spanning several months.

No actual dates, but eh.

So if we're looking purely at response rate via percentages....

[Glass Mouse]

Yeah, saying lose weight to date me is generally pretty bad. Much better to approach the matter as a concerned friend, recognizing that dude's probably not going to react well. Or perhaps will react too well.

Just gonna weigh in as a chubby-ish person to say that if someone told or implied to me that they would date me if only I lost weight, that would probably kill most of my desire to be in a relationship with them. I would also dump my current boyfriend if he told me that he was only dating me in the hope that he could convince me to lose weight some day. I feel enough weight-related shame, thankyouverymuch, I do not need someone who claims to love/like me to pile onto that.

Despite the fact that 90% of a relationship is outside the bedroom, that remaining 10% is generally pretty important if present. It's a terrible idea, after all, for a gay man to date or marry a woman or for a lesbian to be in a relationship with a dude, both in theory and from all of the times I've seen it put into practice.

How is it? When sex works, it holds an importance of 10%. When it does not, it is 90%.

I would argue that a disagreement about whether sex should be had at all falls firmly in the "does not work" category.

Mostly I'm curious if that could mean anything.

I have an email address from him so I will probably write him at the end of the Summer.

Why wait? You got on well. Seize the day!

And no, you should assume it meant nothing, unless the touch was actually a prolonged stroke or repeated brushes or something more meaningful than a simple, likely accidental, touch.

Still, you won´t know until you try!

Yeah, if I was physically attracted to him I suspect we'd already be dating. On that note though, reading through this discussion is starting to get kinda awkward and uncomfortable, what with how you're all holding forth on my desires and motivations and such, so I'm just gonna drop the topic for now

As an allosexual person who spent years in a relationship with someone I was not attracted to, I recommend against pursuing this dude.

It is generally good wisdom to not enter a relationship that hinges on the hope that one of you will change. Whether you are trying to turn your partner from jerk to sweetheart or from chubby bear to adonis, or yourself from someone who is not attracted to him, the odds are rarely good. Sure, some people succeed, but it is like the lottery - a nice story when it happens, but you should not count on it.

Just spoilering this because it's not really a request for help, just sort of an observation, so replies (if there are any) needn't be spoilered as well.

Spoiler: an observation

Show

Something I think I've realised the past couple of days... I think I might actually be kind of a jealous partner. Not the most enviable trait you want in a romantic partner... Although maybe it's kind of a weird jealousy, maybe not. It's certainly not an aggressive one, I don't get hostile or anything and wouldn't dream of it. It's more self-defeating, if anything. I get a little uncomfortable if I know she's done something with a past partner that she hasn't done with me, or if we're doing something she's done with a past partner... For some reason it makes me feel like our relationship is just treading on long-explored ground for her. It's probably just the initial weirdness of somebody who's never had a romantic relationship dating somebody who's had several, that sense that you need to try and distinguish yourself from or 'rise above' the previous ones-- though I know rationally, taking her at her word, I don't need to worry about that. On its own, it's not really a problem, because I know that twinge of envy is a silly one, but throw the neurosis/anxiety in there and it can be problematic for me.

Ow, I remember those feelings from my first relationship. Everything you say was me to a tee, and a good chunk of my friends struggled with the exact same thing at various points. It is perfectly normal when you are inexperienced. Your anxiety is not whispering secret truths in your ear. It is just being a jerk.

Can you not count yourself lucky that your girlfriend is somewhat experienced? I see at least two big advantages. First, she knows those jealous feelings and how to soothe them in others and how not to let them rule herself. I know it can sound romantic-ish to be neurotic together, but really, it is much nicer when one person can play the role of supporting rock (you hopefully get to be her rock in other aspects).
Second, she has tried other partners and knows more about what she likes in a relationship and what makes her happy, and she has used this experience to make an informed decision to be with you. You are more awesome than everyone else she has been with.

I know it won´t shut your anxiety up - anxiety is like that - but maybe those are slightly more useful perspectives on the problem?

This sounds like some form of social anxiety to me.

Funny, it sounds perfectly normal to me. Cultural differences and YMMV and all that :p

Good advice, though.

[Crow]

It is generally good wisdom to not enter a relationship that hinges on the hope that one of you will change. Whether you are trying to turn your partner from jerk to sweetheart or from chubby bear to adonis, or yourself from someone who is not attracted to him, the odds are rarely good. Sure, some people succeed, but it is like the lottery - a nice story when it happens, but you should not count on it.

Thank you!

[Coidzor]

I'm suddenly reminded of this video, Glass Mouse. I'm not sure I understand your reply to the second paragraph you quoted from me, though, sorry.

[lio45]

As an allosexual person who spent years in a relationship with someone I was not attracted to, I recommend against pursuing this dude.

You just raised the count of people in this thread who spent years in relationships with people they didn't like to at least three (Lissou, you, me).

I'm pretty sure that if we could go back in time, we'd all pull the plug much sooner on these relationships.

In my case though, I definitely don't regret trying it. The mistake was keeping it on life support for way too long instead of recognizing and accepting the obvious signs that it wasn't working.

It is generally good wisdom to not enter a relationship that hinges on the hope that one of you will change. Whether you are trying to turn your partner from jerk to sweetheart or from chubby bear to adonis, or yourself from someone who is not attracted to him, the odds are rarely good. Sure, some people succeed, but it is like the lottery - a nice story when it happens, but you should not count on it.

I'd say there are actually pros and cons to accepting to go on a few dates with someone whose company you really enjoy and who has an unrequited crush on you versus simply shutting the door tight at this stage.

As I've been saying since the beginning, it's quite case-specific, though. (Hence the speculation about Helio-specific details.)

In any case, generally speaking, "relationship XP" will be gained. But the downside is that it might generate drama that would've otherwise been avoided.

Depending on the person, the former might be worth the latter, or not.

[lio45]

Just gonna weigh in as a chubby-ish person to say that if someone told or implied to me that they would date me if only I lost weight, that would probably kill most of my desire to be in a relationship with them. I would also dump my current boyfriend if he told me that he was only dating me in the hope that he could convince me to lose weight some day. I feel enough weight-related shame, thankyouverymuch, I do not need someone who claims to love/like me to pile onto that.

If that's a subject you're comfortable with, I'd actually be curious to have your input on various things related to what you just said. Could be via PM if you prefer.