Relationship Woes and Advice XXVII: Sarcasm Will Not Be Tolerated

[Jon_Dahl]

I take take it none of these girls know about one another?

No, but almost all know that I had an ad on a dating website so, quite frankly, it shouldn't take a genius to assume that I could have contact with other women.

[lio45]

Do you ever feel like lashing out at people on the forum? I know the advice is good and the person I wanted to put on the spot doesn't really deserve it. Just a combination of a general crummy mood and a small turn of phrase made me kind of irrational. Resisted the urge which is good. As well as the urge to express my self hatred again. So I guess, I just want to hear peoples reactions.

Is it me? The way I see it, it can only be either myself or then Coidzor.

Feel free to lash out at me if it serves some therapeutic purpose :)

Actually, if you were willing to say a bit more, the people of this thread in general might be able to give you advice. I often find that your posts are a bit on the cryptic side, which in terms of getting advice is obviously not ideal...

I mean, if we knew what exactly pressed your button, and how exactly you initially wanted to react to that, then we could chime in to position ourselves somewhere on the spectrum from "wow, what a total crazy over-reaction, you're a nutcase" to "that was perfectly normal of you, any red-blooded Playgrounder would've had the exact same reaction".

But we don't know anything about it, so we can't comment. You say you want to hear people's reactions, yet you don't give people the required material to comment on... It's fine if you would rather keep all those things for yourself, but then, you have to understand that the advice given in here will be pretty limited.

[lio45]

No, but almost all know that I had an ad on a dating website so, quite frankly, it shouldn't take a genius to assume that I could have contact with other women.

Fair enough; I see it the same way as you.

I did, once, date multiple girls at some point in the past, and it felt really weird, but I managed to convince myself that it was normal, and now I find it normal. Mostly what happened to me was pretty simple: imagine you're in Brazil and all five are local; you chat with all of them, in a few cases you both end up agreeing to go on a date, you pick a day for it, and after the first date goes well you still have, say, two other dates already set up on your calendar with two others of these five women; you toy with the idea of cancelling them because the first was satisfying, but you end up going; and after that you can pick which of them you'd rather continue dating.

In my mind, as long as the person is clearly resolutely single, there's nothing wrong with pursuing 5 girls at the same time. They might also be talking to multiple guys right now, and that would also be perfectly fair.

In my example above, there was nothing preventing these girls from having other appointments with other men at this early stage; it's just a date. I certainly wouldn't have felt betrayed by that, so why should I feel I'm doing something wrong?

[Jon_Dahl]

In my mind, as long as the person is clearly resolutely single, there's nothing wrong with pursuing 5 girls at the same time. They might also be talking to multiple guys right now, and that would also be perfectly fair.

The only promise that I have made is that I won't go out on a date with anyone until December. I'm ok with that.
I never say that I love them. Never. I use other words, like "adore" or "admire". Never "love". One of them says that she loves, as I already mentioned. That's difficult.

[Grytorm]

Is it me? The way I see it, it can only be either myself or then Coidzor.

Feel free to lash out at me if it serves some therapeutic purpose :)

Actually, if you were willing to say a bit more, the people of this thread in general might be able to give you advice. I often find that your posts are a bit on the cryptic side, which in terms of getting advice is obviously not ideal...

I mean, if we knew what exactly pressed your button, and how exactly you initially wanted to react to that, then we could chime in to position ourselves somewhere on the spectrum from "wow, what a total crazy over-reaction, you're a nutcase" to "that was perfectly normal of you, any red-blooded Playgrounder would've had the exact same reaction".

But we don't know anything about it, so we can't comment. You say you want to hear people's reactions, yet you don't give people the required material to comment on... It's fine if you would rather keep all those things for yourself, but then, you have to understand that the advice given in here will be pretty limited.

It isn't you, and it is Coidzor. I haven't detailed the issue before because I thought it would be rude to talk about something when they are also reading the same threads. I don't think I should throw it at him because I doubt it would be therapeutic, especially because the problem could probably be resolved by civilized conversation. Sorry if I tend to be a bit vague, I guess I'm not to good at communicating either. You'd probably call that another reason to avoid relationships.

But, the thing that put me in a bad mood. A while ago I started a conversation with Coidzor in PMs. It went okay, found a book series I should get back to eventually. But that's not the problem. I said some really stupid things and the conversation fell apart. I tried to apologize but I was told not to, even though I had clearly offended Coidzor and I felt guilty. Ever since then I have felt somewhat uncomfortable talking to him, I find most of what he says is actually very interesting and constructive. And overall he is a neat person. But I just feel shame when I see him pop up.

Initially I wanted to vent my frustration surrounding this by directing a good amount of hostility at Coidzor. But later I just wanted to ask him "Coidzor, why do't you hate me?"

[Coidzor]

Well, I don't like hating people, and nothing was said that was hateable, merely awkward.

Not wanting to date you without even having met you and not seeing fertile ground for friendship in the aftermath of having to reject such an advance is very different from hatred.

Though there certainly are people who go into hatred due to being outraged that they even had to reject someone, I am not one of those people.

[Grytorm]

That's fair. Um, I guess I want to say I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

[Coidzor]

I forgive you.

Please work on jumping the gun, though.

[Crow]

Let the hate flow through you.

Next time.

[Glass Mouse]

I think a lot of people with depression have a habit of devaluing their pain and telling themselves that their hardship isn't real, isn't worth being called hardship. But even if the hardship is only in your head, that doesn't render the pain it causes any less real, and it doesn't mean you have to hate yourself for suffering it. Not that you need to wallow in your pain, but you have a right to recognise that it's there and valid and that you don't need to feel privileged because it hurts.

You've probably heard all this before, so I don't know how much it helps. Just know I've been there and I know it's rough, but in the end, 'you're weak and ****ty for thinking this is real hardship' is just another one of the lies depression tells its victims.

It helps, thanks. I've also talked it through with some trusted people, so I kinda feel like I have a strategy on the relationship stuff. A good outcome is not guaranteed, but isn't that always the way?

I'm not. I've thought of finding a therapist, but... Well, for one, I can't afford it at this point, and for another, I don't want my family to know that I'm going through something I need therapy for and worry for me. And to be honest, I just don't know what good therapy might do.

(bolding mine)
Just wanna answer this one, since I've been in therapy for the past eight months. My therapist is really good at asking questions that force me to change the lens with which I look at my problems - it's kind of a good-natured manipulation. Most laymen tend to land on "this is how I would feel/do, so feel/do that!" type of advice instead of guidance, and it is just so much more effective to reach the conclusions on your own. My therapist in particular is good at making me connect with emotions I've had in a recent situation, and then tying them into previous trauma stuff, making it really obvious that and how they are related. This makes it easy to see the patterns when I overreact or get disproportionally hurt in the present. For me, recognizing these patterns is key to stopping the bad spirals in their track.

That way, my therapist helps me find puzzle pieces that I can then go home and put into place with more introspection, more practise of the habits and coping mechanisms we discuss, and more time. The puzzle pieces are useless unless I do the work to put them into place, and I cannot find all the pieces on my own. Hence therapy.

It is also great to have a neutral party to confide in. That makes it much easier to feel and express feelings like anger that I'm not otherwise "allowed" to feel, because in therapy I can be relatively sure there are no consequences.

As always, it all depends on whether you find a good one, whether you can trust them, whether you are ready to do the work to challenge yourself, whether you can afford it, etc. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just trying to explain why I non-rarely recommend therapy to others.

Well, all I have is my personal experience, but getting comfortable with myself and a lack of relationships, and being happy with how things are... has mostly led to me not even wanting a relationship all that much anymore.

A fortunate sideeffect

[Recherché]

I'm finding myself in a really weird situation and kinda not sure how to move forward. There's a married couple that I've known for years; we used to play in the same pathfinder game and while I'm not best friends with them we've stayed in touch since. Since the beginning of this summer the wife has been wanting to hang out with me a lot more and has started flirting with me. A lot of flirting. And just so we're clear they know that I'm queen and not strongly committed to monogamy. All of this culminated with both of them asking me on a date.

On one hand they're pretty much perfect for me on paper. They both hit pretty much every box I have. But I've been dealing with nearly debilitating depression, anxiety and self esteem issues for the past year and I'm still not back onto solid ground. I'm still dealing with pretty regular panic attacks and days when I can barely drag myself out of bed. I'm not sure I really have it in me to pursue a serious relationship right now much less two at the same time. And while I'm theoretically interested in poly relationships, I haven't actually been in one before.

I'm also not sure quite what they're looking for in this either. An occasional third in bed? A full partner? Something in between?

I said no when she asked me out partially because I was freaked out in a deer in the headlights way and partially because of all this stuff. But I'm still questioning my decision in my head. And they still keep flirting with me. I honestly don't think I've ever had someone this enthusiastic or determined to get into my pants before. Its kinda aggressive but also kinda flattering. Just don't know how to respond to it.

[Lethologica]

The second part sounds like a good thing to ask explicitly. They may not know the answer, but at least you'll know where they stand. Misunderstandings aren't romantic, no matter what Hollywood thinks.

The first part...well, there's no cure for inexperience like experience, and it's entirely understandable to be anxious about it. The other issues you bring up are "find a therapist" issues...I can only note that there are a lot of ways for your mental health issues and your relationships to interact; your issues are not merely an obstacle to finding good relationships, but also (for example) something that good relationships can help manage. So I would suggest thinking about your mental health from multiple perspectives, not just the preparedness one, when deciding whether you want to try this relationship.

[Coidzor]

I'm finding myself in a really weird situation and kinda not sure how to move forward. There's a married couple that I've known for years; we used to play in the same pathfinder game and while I'm not best friends with them we've stayed in touch since. Since the beginning of this summer the wife has been wanting to hang out with me a lot more and has started flirting with me. A lot of flirting. And just so we're clear they know that I'm queen and not strongly committed to monogamy. All of this culminated with both of them asking me on a date.

Together? Separately but with full knowledge? Separately like they *both* want to cheat on their partner with you on the down low?

On one hand they're pretty much perfect for me on paper. They both hit pretty much every box I have. But I've been dealing with nearly debilitating depression, anxiety and self esteem issues for the past year and I'm still not back onto solid ground. I'm still dealing with pretty regular panic attacks and days when I can barely drag myself out of bed. I'm not sure I really have it in me to pursue a serious relationship right now much less two at the same time. And while I'm theoretically interested in poly relationships, I haven't actually been in one before.

I think if they're married, you're jumping the gun in assuming they want a serious relationship based on being asked out on a date.

I'm also not sure quite what they're looking for in this either. An occasional third in bed? A full partner? Something in between?

Ask, then, instead of assuming and going all anxiety and overanalyzing.

[AliceLost]

I'm finding myself in a really weird situation and kinda not sure how to move forward. There's a married couple that I've known for years; we used to play in the same pathfinder game and while I'm not best friends with them we've stayed in touch since. Since the beginning of this summer the wife has been wanting to hang out with me a lot more and has started flirting with me. A lot of flirting. And just so we're clear they know that I'm queen and not strongly committed to monogamy. All of this culminated with both of them asking me on a date.

On one hand they're pretty much perfect for me on paper. They both hit pretty much every box I have. But I've been dealing with nearly debilitating depression, anxiety and self esteem issues for the past year and I'm still not back onto solid ground. I'm still dealing with pretty regular panic attacks and days when I can barely drag myself out of bed. I'm not sure I really have it in me to pursue a serious relationship right now much less two at the same time. And while I'm theoretically interested in poly relationships, I haven't actually been in one before.

I'm also not sure quite what they're looking for in this either. An occasional third in bed? A full partner? Something in between?

I said no when she asked me out partially because I was freaked out in a deer in the headlights way and partially because of all this stuff. But I'm still questioning my decision in my head. And they still keep flirting with me. I honestly don't think I've ever had someone this enthusiastic or determined to get into my pants before. Its kinda aggressive but also kinda flattering. Just don't know how to respond to it.

I'm a firm believer that any kind of serious interpersonal relationship can be improved with the application of clear, open communication. Sit down with both of them sometime and ask them what they're looking for, if they know, and let them know about your anxieties. Chances are, if you've known them this long, they already know or can tell at least some of your issues with depression, and people tend to be very self-focused: if they asked you out and you freaked out and turned them down, it would be common for them to assume that the fault lay with them, not with your anxieties. Letting them know that you might be interested in pursuing something, but that you're not yet clear on what you'd feel comfortable with or how you'd handle it, not only helps to take some of the pressure off of you, but also helps them manage their reactions and expectations.

Maybe they don't want to have to deal with the idea, or the reality, of your depression, and being up front saves everyone a lot of trauma and drama later.
Maybe they don't mind, and are willing to be patient, and can be supportive and help you through this difficult period.
Maybe they don't really know what they want either, and by bringing it up, the three of you can discuss it and figure out if there's something that works for all of you.

I don't know what they're looking for either, but it sounds like there's a reasonable chance that they're not looking for a full third partner in their marriage, but someone fun and new to do things with. If everyone's expectations are set right, you could have the chance to make some new relationships without the burden or pressure of a full committed relationship.

[Arutema]

So I'm at 35 years old, perpetually single. Even the bad dates dried up 4 years ago.

How do I just accept that certain things can't be, and that certain emotional desires are simply not going to be fulfilled anytime in my lifespan.

I'm not looking for the usual platitudes on how I'll meet someone eventually, or how with this one trick I can meet new people who might be interested in me. Trust me, I've heard enough of those in the last 15 years.

I'm looking for real advice on coping with a life of enforced asexuality and aromanticism. Because at this point, I'm a fool not to recognize that's what fate has given me.

[TechnOkami]

Find contention in being alone.

It takes awhile.

[Sparx MacGyver]

I haven't been on a date in over 4.5 years. I really miss the companionship, I miss coming home to someone I consider my very closest and best friend. I keep saying just give it a shot, but everytime I do, it seems to just never work out.

I keep hoping one day, buuut.....

[Form]

So I'm at 35 years old, perpetually single. Even the bad dates dried up 4 years ago.

How do I just accept that certain things can't be, and that certain emotional desires are simply not going to be fulfilled anytime in my lifespan.

I'm not looking for the usual platitudes on how I'll meet someone eventually, or how with this one trick I can meet new people who might be interested in me. Trust me, I've heard enough of those in the last 15 years.

I'm looking for real advice on coping with a life of enforced asexuality and aromanticism. Because at this point, I'm a fool not to recognize that's what fate has given me.

Well, you could look into using something like a dating agency (this is not online dating, mind you) to meet people instead, though I don't know how viable this approach would be. Alternatively, you could look into escort services or something like a surrogate partner, though my understanding of the latter is that it is essentially therapy. Those options do provide a (albeit pricey) way to at least somewhat fulfill your sexual and romantic desires. It won't be the real thing, but may very well provide a passable substitute.

Of course, if you do go that route pay close attention to the legality of it. Don't violate the law and if a legal escort or such is available, do some research to ensure you don't end up inadvertently supporting sexual exploitation of people anyway.

[dehro]

So I'm at 35 years old, perpetually single. Even the bad dates dried up 4 years ago.

How do I just accept that certain things can't be, and that certain emotional desires are simply not going to be fulfilled anytime in my lifespan.

I'm not looking for the usual platitudes on how I'll meet someone eventually, or how with this one trick I can meet new people who might be interested in me. Trust me, I've heard enough of those in the last 15 years.

I'm looking for real advice on coping with a life of enforced asexuality and aromanticism. Because at this point, I'm a fool not to recognize that's what fate has given me.

The way I understand it, you're only asexual if you actually don't want sex and have no actual interest in it. What you're envisioning is making do, and not in a healthy way. If the lack of sex is an issue, find ways to make that happen anyway, whether it's an escort or maybe joining events or clubs geared towards singles. Even websites can do the trick.
As for relationships, sorry, but I'm going to have to do exactly what you don't think is worth doing.. And remind you that your age and dating history have very little bearing on your future dating history.
I have a bunch of family members who were single for the longest stretch of time but finally found themselves in happy marriages, sometimes as late as in their forties. I myself found my girlfriend only little more than a year ago (I'm 38).
The only thing that is stopping you from finding someone, be it for a night out a lifetime, is you.
You are definitely doing something wrong, as I was when I was single. Whether you're setting to high standards for potential dates, whether you're not playing to your strengths, whether you're sabotaging yourself by behavioural patterns or poor strategic choices, or by sticking to the wrong crowd or social environment... One or more of these elements is working against you and it's very likely that something can be done to remedy.. Or maybe it will be possible in the future. Negating this possibility is an act of self sabotage too and it puts you in a mindset where you will even miss the opportunities that might come your way.. Because you'll simply not see them

[lio45]

I'm not looking for the usual platitudes on how I'll meet someone eventually...

We certainly won't be telling you that you should continue to do exactly whatever it is you've been doing and that that'll lead to you meeting the right person eventually.

But yeah, if you make some changes, I am fully convinced there's no fundamental reason you can't hope to meet someone eventually.

There are obviously some things that should be improved (inevitable conclusion based on your history of trying and failing). Can you identify them yourself? Can you work on trying to fix them?

[Xapi]

So I'm at 35 years old, perpetually single. Even the bad dates dried up 4 years ago.

How do I just accept that certain things can't be, and that certain emotional desires are simply not going to be fulfilled anytime in my lifespan.

I'm not looking for the usual platitudes on how I'll meet someone eventually, or how with this one trick I can meet new people who might be interested in me. Trust me, I've heard enough of those in the last 15 years.

I'm looking for real advice on coping with a life of enforced asexuality and aromanticism. Because at this point, I'm a fool not to recognize that's what fate has given me.

Get busy. Do stuff. Relate with and to people.

Specially do stuff that interests and inspire you.

This carries three consequences:

1 - You'll find stuff to be excited about that isn't sex and/or a romantic partner.

2 - You don't have time to mope around and feel bad for yourself which, let's be honest, isn't helping.

3 - You will be meeting other people in a setting in which you'll show the best of yourself, leading to maybe possibly having dates.

I know you don't want advise that leads to my number 3 there. But I think you should still do it if only for 1 and 2.

[Glass Mouse]

I know you don't want advise that leads to my number 3 there. But I think you should still do it if only for 1 and 2.

Xapi speaks truth. In the absence of romantic companionship, surround yourself with hobbies and friends that make you feel happy and fulfilled. Show up. Participate. Offer help and support to the people around you and keep the ones who offer it back. Become the person who organises social outings, plan fantastic adventures that you can run as the GM. Write a novel. Connect with family members, make sure to send out Christmas cards, volunteer to take care of the kids of family and friends for a few hours sometimes. Do a lot of evening courses on interesting things, maybe something like acting or public speaking that will help you with general socialising. Buy cool board games and invite friends to play them. Learn to play an instrument. Read the top hundred literary classics. Volunteer somewhere that you can feel useful and appreciated, whether with refugees or kids or teaching or whatever. Send friends links or images when you find something that they might like. Use the **** out of Meetup.com, your local gaming store, etc. Get involved at work, maybe in planning Friday bar outings or with political stuff. Take a few trips a year to cool places, either local or international, and take lots of photos. Open your home to couchsurfers and listen to their stories. Take a cooking class. Start cross-stitching.

A romantic partner takes up a LOT of time and money. Sometimes they're worth it (hence why people enter into relationships in the first place), but if you can't find a partner, the upside is that you have a ton of resources that you can use on yourself and your friends instead.

Not to mention, if you make an effort to enjoy life, the side effect is that you get to enjoy life. That's not too shabby.

[Form]

Xapi speaks truth. In the absence of romantic companionship, surround yourself with hobbies and friends that make you feel happy and fulfilled. Show up. Participate. Offer help and support to the people around you and keep the ones who offer it back. Become the person who organises social outings, plan fantastic adventures that you can run as the GM. Write a novel. Connect with family members, make sure to send out Christmas cards, volunteer to take care of the kids of family and friends for a few hours sometimes. Do a lot of evening courses on interesting things, maybe something like acting or public speaking that will help you with general socialising. Buy cool board games and invite friends to play them. Learn to play an instrument. Read the top hundred literary classics. Volunteer somewhere that you can feel useful and appreciated, whether with refugees or kids or teaching or whatever. Send friends links or images when you find something that they might like. Use the **** out of Meetup.com, your local gaming store, etc. Get involved at work, maybe in planning Friday bar outings or with political stuff. Take a few trips a year to cool places, either local or international, and take lots of photos. Open your home to couchsurfers and listen to their stories. Take a cooking class. Start cross-stitching.

A romantic partner takes up a LOT of time and money. Sometimes they're worth it (hence why people enter into relationships in the first place), but if you can't find a partner, the upside is that you have a ton of resources that you can use on yourself and your friends instead.

Not to mention, if you make an effort to enjoy life, the side effect is that you get to enjoy life. That's not too shabby.

As someone who has done, and still is doing, exactly what you've suggested here let me point out that that is not sufficient. Hobbies and friendships are nice and vital, yes, but ultimately no substitute for romance. As a result there still tends to be a strong feeling that you're missing out on something essential. That is not something that goes way, no matter how full one's life with hobbies, friends, interests etc.

To be honest, I don't think you really know what this feels like because I suspect you've never been in the same situation. And that's fine, but it would be good to be aware of that.

[Xapi]

To be honest, I don't think you really know what this feels like because I suspect you've never been in the same situation. And that's fine, but it would be good to be aware of that.

No point in making this about me, mate. I have had those feelings when I was young, and learning to cope with it was hard, and I can honestly say that having a fullfiled life outside of a relationship helped me be ready for a relationship when it came.

Obviously I wasn't in exactly the same position as the OP, but you probably aren't either, there's no two lives really the same.

[Form]

No point in making this about me, mate. I have had those feelings when I was young, and learning to cope with it was hard, and I can honestly say that having a fullfiled life outside of a relationship helped me be ready for a relationship when it came.

Obviously I wasn't in exactly the same position as the OP, but you probably aren't either, there's no two lives really the same.

I'm not trying to make this about you and I'm not saying having a fullfilling life beyond romantic attachments cannot contribute. Nor am I saying that a life without romance is without value. I didn't mean to address the OP's situation exclusively either, but was talking about a total lack of romance in one's life in a more general sense and the implication that things such as friendships and hobbies can act as a substitute.

It's just that I often get the sense that it is simply not quite understood that one can have all of that (except for romance), but still feel as if something important is missing. It is not easy to accept a life devoid of romance, even if it is filled with lots of other things. That is the essence of the point I'm trying to make here.

[Lethologica]

Find contention in being alone.

It takes awhile.

Oh, finding contention in being alone is easy. I argue with myself all the time.

[Xapi]

It's just that I often get the sense that it is simply not quite understood that one can have all of that (except for romance), but still feel as if something important is missing. It is not easy to accept a life devoid of romance, even if it is filled with lots of other things. That is the essence of the point I'm trying to make here.

I think you misread me pretty bad if you think that I was trying to imply that doing other stuff would erase those needs.

[Form]

I think you misread me pretty bad if you think that I was trying to imply that doing other stuff would erase those needs.

Erh? I was originally replying to Glass Mouse's post from which I did get that sense, albeit implied. I do not understand why you replied to me at all then.

[Glass Mouse]

To be honest, I don't think you really know what this feels like because I suspect you've never been in the same situation. And that's fine, but it would be good to be aware of that.

Point taken. But please note that I was specifically replying to someone who ruled out romantic relationships in his life and asked for advice how to make such a life work. Arutema was not asking for dating advice but for "tolerable life regardless" advice.

I'm sorry if you felt that I was trivializing your struggle. I was never trying to offer commiseration because, you are right, I don't have the experiences to back that up. I was however trying to give a positive spin and share strategies that helped me when I was long-term single and depressed. I figured that was more useful than hollow sympathy. Maybe my advice does not work for someone who is not single by choice (I wouldn't know), but you and Arutema are both free to ignore me if you feel that my advice does not apply. That's the beauty of this thread.

[Form]

Point taken. But please note that I was specifically replying to someone who ruled out romantic relationships in his life and asked for advice how to make such a life work. Arutema was not asking for dating advice but for "tolerable life regardless" advice.

I'm sorry if you felt that I was trivializing your struggle. I was never trying to offer commiseration because, you are right, I don't have the experiences to back that up. I was however trying to give a positive spin and share strategies that helped me when I was long-term single and depressed. I figured that was more useful than hollow sympathy. Maybe my advice does not work for someone who is not single by choice (I wouldn't know), but you and Arutema are both free to ignore me if you feel that my advice does not apply. That's the beauty of this thread.

Alright, fair enough. Valid point. I suppose I went a little off topic to address something that I personally felt was important.