Relationship Woes and Advice XXVII: Sarcasm Will Not Be Tolerated

[Recherché]

I'm trying to keep a low profile since my attempt to bring everyone closer to each other and have a group hug failed pretty badly.

I'm kinda curious about how you expected that to go. What did you think was going to happen?

[Jon_Dahl]

I'm kinda curious about how you expected that to go. What did you think was going to happen?

I think I'm making a huge mistake in replying you, but... This is the Friendly Banter. I was expecting friendliness. I was thinking that by the end of the day, I could've felt among friends in the Friendly Banter. You guys should invest more in your friendliness, heed my words.

[Recherché]

I think I'm making a huge mistake in replying you, but... This is the Friendly Banter. I was expecting friendliness. I was thinking that by the end of the day, I could've felt among friends in the Friendly Banter. You guys should invest more in your friendliness, heed my words.

I'm not trying to criticize you here just trying to understand your thought process. You asked for advice and the advice you got back was that what you were doing seemed kind of unwise and possibly disrespectful to us. That alone doesn't mean that we don't like you. It means we're being honest with you. And then you keep doing the similar stuff and asking similar questions . . . Do you understand how that could be perceived as frustrating?

[lio45]

You guys should invest more in your friendliness, heed my words.

Friends generally try not to lie too much to friends. I wasn't comfortable endorsing your "limiting yourself to keeping these three ladies in your orbit for a year" so-called "plan" and gave you genuine feedback, like pretty much everyone else who chose to comment. The beauty of this thread is that since we're strangers, we can more easily give the sincere advice we feel the other person might need to hear. In person, with someone who's close to you, that's a more delicate business.

Also, as was mentioned several times, people are more blunt with you now because it seems that all the previous advice, given in a much more friendly manner, produced zero results.

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, I will reiterate you're still fully welcome in here for relationship advice even if you have the (mistaken, IMO) opinion that this community is "intolerant".

I think you're a smart guy, and I think you can learn from your previous experiences.

[FinnLassie]

Jon, I don't believe anyone wants to be hostile towards you. Being blunt isn't being hostile, and I too feel like you haven't processed the advice we have given to you as you come to us with the same things again and again. How ever I will be sad if some people want to be purposely rude to you, but being blunt does not equal to rudeness. It's just... a very direct and no-nonsense way to communicate what the person wants to say.

But anyways. I feel like you don't want to discuss about this all right now and feel like keeping it low, which I'm ok with. I can't force you to talk and it's cool. Especially since I feel like I've given my last words for your situation a while ago especially as I agree with many of the posters. I don't want to make any "ditto" posts any longer.

All the best to you. I also hope you'll get some Portuguese lessons suitable for your level!

[Jon_Dahl]

All the best to you. I also hope you'll get some Portuguese lessons suitable for your level!

Wow, that is one of the nicest things anyone has said to me in a long while! It's like wishing "have lots of chocolate cakes and random hugs from people who smell nice"! Thanks, much appreciated, FinnLassie! Your wish is almost completely unrealistic but that doesn't matter, it still made me smile!

[Arutema]

So only two pages after posting about giving up, I'm back with a different issue.

I'm starting to develop a crush on a girl in my gaming group. I thought I was more emotionally mature than this. I thought I was smarter than to get emotionally invested, in anyone, after what the last girl did to me. But here I am, again.

How can I express interest/ask her out without coming across as a creep? How can I avoid screwing it up this time?

[Lethologica]

Emotional investment is not immaturity. Immaturity would be refusing to act on it until it becomes full-on obsession.

Ask for a moment of her time, then tell her you like her and would like to get to know her better and invite her to an activity you think would be mutually enjoyable and also conducive to getting to know each other. Then listen to and respect her response. Respond to either 'yes' or 'no' as a friend (albeit a possibly nervous and excited friend for 'yes'). Then get back to what you were doing.

[lio45]

So only two pages after posting about giving up, I'm back with a different issue.

I'm starting to develop a crush on a girl in my gaming group. I thought I was more emotionally mature than this. I thought I was smarter than to get emotionally invested, in anyone, after what the last girl did to me. But here I am, again.

How can I express interest/ask her out without coming across as a creep? How can I avoid screwing it up this time?

There are reasonably easy ways to gauge her interest without coming across as a creep. Since she's already part of some social group of yours, it might be better for everyone to approach her subtly. Are there any "openings" that you could use while still staying noncommittal?

(Actually, it's a given that there are openings -- my question would be more like, do you feel able to identify them and use a couple of them?)

That should be your first step. The following steps will depend on the result of the first. I mean, if after your gaming session it turns out that it's pouring rain, she'd planned on walking back and is on foot, while you're driving, and you're headed in the direction she's headed, and you casually offer her a lift, and she refuses, then if you proceed to gather 2-3 similar occurrences of her almost going out of her way to keep you away over the course of a few weeks you kinda have your answer, without drama or screwing anything up.

Hopefully she likes you enough at this point that the first step will lead to something else (at least a meeting outside your social group, only the two of you).

[Lethologica]

Okay, but her getting in the car under those circumstances means basically nothing--she'd have to seriously dislike Arutema to turn that down. Also, this is starting to feel like a sitcom, and my general opinion is that one should do the opposite of what a sitcom would do.

I guess we're not really working off a good knowledge base here. Arutema, do you mind if I inquire about the circumstances? For example--how well do you two know each other at present?

[lio45]

Okay, but her getting in the car under those circumstances means basically nothing--she'd have to seriously dislike Arutema to turn that down.

Normally, I'd agree, but over time I've learned not to under-estimate the charisma and courtship skills deficiencies of the average Playgrounder asking for advice in here. :P

Getting her in the car is already a small victory -- it means she doesn't think Arutema is a scary creep, and that she rates having to endure his company and smalltalk for a while as less unpleasant than having to walk a certain distance in the rain.

Openings like these are good first tests for someone afraid of screwing things up and/or upsetting the dynamics of an existing social group by having a potentially drama-generating open crush on someone within it then getting rejected.

[Lissou]

That's a seriously low bar. If she disliked him that much, she probably would have left the gaming group he's a part of by now. I agree that her getting in the car would mean nothing, and that taking it as a sign she's interested would be a terrible idea.

I would also encourage you not to hit on her in any circumstances where she is basically trapped. In a car, in an elevator, in any situation where she can't just leave (probably includes your gaming sessions). It would be putting her in a very uncomfortable situation and you don't want that.

[Arutema]

That's a seriously low bar. If she disliked him that much, she probably would have left the gaming group he's a part of by now. I agree that her getting in the car would mean nothing, and that taking it as a sign she's interested would be a terrible idea.

I would also encourage you not to hit on her in any circumstances where she is basically trapped. In a car, in an elevator, in any situation where she can't just leave (probably includes your gaming sessions). It would be putting her in a very uncomfortable situation and you don't want that.

Got to agree here. I was thinking more; casually approach her after a gaming session and ask if she wants to learn a new card game from me, I know a few that are good with two players.

[Sparx MacGyver]

I still like the previous advice. Simply approach her after the game, asking for a moment of her time. Explain you'd like to get to know her better and would she like to go to Starbucks or Denny's or something. If need be, clarify it's not a date. It may be helpful to ask for something simple, like a coffee at a shop where there are people so she might be more comfortable. And if she says no, or she's got a boyfriend, be cool with it. Could always say cool, bring him along.

That's how I'd handle it anyway. But seriously, DO NOT trap the girl in an uncomfortable position. It may not be weird for you, but she might get creeped out by it. You never know how a person will react, which is why I recommend a coffee shop or some such.

[Coidzor]

Well, there's always the jazz standard of asking if they want to catch coffee and see if you can get along when not killing orcs and horking their pie.

[Glass Mouse]

Got to agree here. I was thinking more; casually approach her after a gaming session and ask if she wants to learn a new card game from me, I know a few that are good with two players.

I like that plan. It's the geek version of asking someone to coffee Just remember to find a game that fits her particular playing style and interests. That's better than finding the objectively "best" game.

And maybe don't start with the invitation. Start by telling her about this cool game you love. Gauge her reaction. If she sounds bored or excuses herself, she's not interested (in you and/or the game). If she sounds interested in the game, and especially if she expresses a desire to try it herself, then invite her out. To a public setting, not your home. If you have a local gaming cafe, great. Otherwise just go a decent place with coffee and big enough tables. Homes are intimate settings, public places are casual. You want casual.

Also, the route of "hey I have this cool thing I want to try with you" is way way way more charming than "hey let me teach you something". Maybe if she's the total 110% type of geek who collects game knowledge like it's pokemon, it might work. But personally, I'd just be annoyed. I learn things at college. When dating or with friends, I want to have fun, and I want to be offered fun. If the activity is cool enough, then I'll learn what I need naturally.

Also worth noting, while the game is a fine idea, keep an ear out in casual conversation. I've made friends of gaming group members by pouncing on "hey you wanna watch that movie too, let's watch it together!" opportunities. It works for games, movies, books (I just connected with a gaming friend on Goodread and we've been chatting a lot about books in the past weeks). Following the flow of conversation is easier and more casual, and you're more likely to hit something that she actually actively wants to do.

Please also note that she's likely to say a variation on "sure, sounds fun, let's get in touch about that" and then never following up. My personal rule of thumb is to remind/suggest a specific time to the person no more than two times, and if they keep hesitating or dragging it out, assume they're not interested (and that they'll get back to me if that changes - it happens sometimes).

Good luck!

[dehro]

Agreed. Either suggest a non gaming social group activity for a smallish group where you can get chatting with her or just ask her out for something social and individual, possibly with the explicit intent of getting to know her better. The act of inviting her should occur in a setting where she can answer freely and not feel pressured either way, and the suggested activity should allow her complete peace of mind, possibly by being somewhere public.

[Sparx MacGyver]

As another note: libraries are great spots to go. Lots of books and so plenty of topics to chat about, plus, ya know, public and all that. Plus, some of them have nice areas outside if you decide to go outside.

Just tossing another option out there, bro.

[AMFV]

Got to agree here. I was thinking more; casually approach her after a gaming session and ask if she wants to learn a new card game from me, I know a few that are good with two players.

I would say that that's not as good a plan as coffee. That's an event focused date, you're going to be focusing primarily on the game, there's a lot of room for misinterpretation, she could very easily not realize that you have a romantic interest, and misreading that is likely to be an area where problems start. It's important to remember that a first actual date/date-type conversation is where you guys feel each other out and figure out broad strokes comparability, that's why coffee dates are good for that, because they let you chat and start figuring out if it's something that either of you are willing to put time and effort into.

That's a good a time to ask broad strokes type questions as well: "Does she want to live there in five years?" "Do you?" "Does she want to live in the suburbs or the city" These are fairly basic questions that are not overly invasive and can be small talk, and they can help find some of the bigger deal breakers for people. Is she going to be really career focused? Does she like traveling and vacations.

The reason that coffee would be better I think is because it's very clearly at least a preliminary sign of interest, whereas she might not read a card game as being that. Also with coffee there's the advantage of you being able to offer to pay (if she lets you pay, then odds are she's thinking of it as romantic, rather than platonic, although that's not a sure thing). Additionally coffee puts you on equal footing, teaching her a card game puts in superior footing, which is not the best place for small-talk or for comfort. I've found that most ladies (and probably men as well) don't like when prospective partners are demonstrating whatever ability they think is cool and that's the whole point of the date or event. That always comes off badly, at least in my experience.

[lio45]

That's a seriously low bar.

Yeah, but there are powerful reasons in his case for erring on the side of caution and starting with a lower bar than the average guy.

As dehro mentioned, he is "definitely doing something wrong". We don't know enough yet to identify what that something(s) is(are), but it's a bit foolish to think "Nth + 1 time's the charm" if you have a string of N failures in a row trying the same thing the same way, no?

Generally speaking, "I have developed a crush on that person" leads to "well, duh, ask them out!" in a 100% no brainer way. It's not even advice that should be worth anything to the average person. And if Arutema feels comfortable just going to her and asking her out -- which, again, is an absolutely natural thing to do in such a case for average people who have average histories of courtship success -- then that's great, and I would hope he didn't need to hear it from us!

Got to agree here. I was thinking more; casually approach her after a gaming session and ask if she wants to learn a new card game from me, I know a few that are good with two players.

Great! If you feel up to doing that, go for it.

I have to say your mood has changed a bit since your previous post :P but that seems to be a good change.

I would also encourage you not to hit on her in any circumstances where she is basically trapped.

That's how I'd handle it anyway. But seriously, DO NOT trap the girl in an uncomfortable position.

Yeah, obviously. I did not think that needed to be specified that expressly (it seemed to me to go without saying), but again, in this thread, it's really easy to underestimate what goes without saying, so it can't hurt to insist on that.

In the same line of advice, don't start by dropping your pants to show her your ****. That's also a big no no.

[lio45]

And maybe don't start with the invitation. Start by telling her about this cool game you love. Gauge her reaction. If she sounds bored or excuses herself, she's not interested (in you and/or the game). If she sounds interested in the game, and especially if she expresses a desire to try it herself, then invite her out. To a public setting, not your home. If you have a local gaming cafe, great. Otherwise just go a decent place with coffee and big enough tables. Homes are intimate settings, public places are casual. You want casual.

Also, the route of "hey I have this cool thing I want to try with you" is way way way more charming than "hey let me teach you something". Maybe if she's the total 110% type of geek who collects game knowledge like it's pokemon, it might work. But personally, I'd just be annoyed. I learn things at college. When dating or with friends, I want to have fun, and I want to be offered fun. If the activity is cool enough, then I'll learn what I need naturally.

Please also note that she's likely to say a variation on "sure, sounds fun, let's get in touch about that" and then never following up. My personal rule of thumb is to remind/suggest a specific time to the person no more than two times, and if they keep hesitating or dragging it out, assume they're not interested (and that they'll get back to me if that changes - it happens sometimes).

Each of these three paragraphs is good advice.

Again, though -- if Arutema feels he can approach her directly by starting a casual one on one conversation about this "card game he loves", great, but I don't think it's a given that such opportunities are that readily accessible. We don't know any more than the fact that she's part of a gaming group, so in this context, they might never ever get to be alone together naturally right now.

I would at least recommend starting to make a semi-habit of chatting with her a bit after gaming sessions, if you haven't already been doing that. Then, yeah, you can eventually talk about "that card game" during one of those chats.

[Crow]

It's going to be over if you don't talk to her about it and figure out what's going on. It's probably over anyways. Sounds like the visit has been a figurative kick in the balls. Sorry to be such a ray of sunshine, good luck.

We like to make excuses for people we really care about, and I understand being tired or feeling bogged down; but when someone you care about travels a long way to see you after a long time away- and you can't even be bothered to be a little excited, you spend all your time on your phone, or you don't even say goodnight. **** that. Comrade you deserve better than that. Good riddance.

At least you'll get some more time to practice being content with yourself.

[lio45]

We like to make excuses for people we really care about, and I understand being tired or feeling bogged down; but when someone you care about travels a long way to see you after a long time away- and you can't even be bothered to be a little excited, you spend all your time on your phone, or you don't even say goodnight. **** that.

It's okay to be tired due to factors outside your control, but in this case I always personally make sure my significant other is fully aware of that; I wouldn't want to inadvertently send a totally erroneous message that I'm not enthusiastic about them if the truth is that I'm just incredibly tired.

That she didn't do that (even partially) almost certainly means that it's more than just being tired.

At this point, I'd have a frank conversation with her. It's very probably over, but it might be interesting to know what went wrong. You don't have anything to lose...

[lio45]

It hurts like hell to say it, but between how she's acted these past couple of days and how things have been between us in the weeks leading up to it, ...

You had already perceived hints that your relationship was starting to sour up during the past few weeks? If so, that's new (to us).

Breakups happen. If you could find this one, you can find the next. I know it's not easy going through one, but breakups are one of the prices to pay for playing (i.e. everyone in a relationship is inevitably exposed to that risk). So, best of luck to you, and hopefully you can get over her. Unless you two manage to patch things up, you never know..... but for that to happen, you'll have to talk to her and figure out what's the problem.

[lio45]

I appreciate the support. Honestly I don't think I'll really raise the matter to her-- I don't want to seem selfish because she really has been dealing with a lot and doesn't need more on top of that at this point.

Can you help with whatever it is? Maybe the reason she's pouting is that she finds you inconsiderate and unsupportive (from her point of view, even though you might be trying in your own ways).

[lio45]

Not much I can do. She's struggling to find an affordable apartment for herself, get a new job, cope with family moving away

There could actually be a single solution to fix all of these three -- relocate to where her family is moving (provided it's a more affordable place for housing than where she currently is) and find a job over there.

Re: the sick pet, mourning is a normal process, but there's also the excitement of getting your next pet to kinda make up for it. For us, every time, I tried to stay positive, reminding me of how the dying pet has lead a really happy life thanks to us, and now that he's reached the end of his natural life, wouldn't want us to be sorry.

[Chen]

I appreciate the support. Honestly I don't think I'll really raise the matter to her-- I don't want to seem selfish because she really has been dealing with a lot and doesn't need more on top of that at this point. I'll just wait through the remainder of the visit and if things keep on as they have... I'll probably just tell her it's best that we split up. We can probably remain friends, at least (makes sense, since the past couple of days I've felt more like a distant friend than a visiting girlfriend to her).

It's not selfish to discuss your relationship with your significant other. Communication is KEY to a good working relationship.

[Icewraith]

I appreciate the support. Honestly I don't think I'll really raise the matter to her-- I don't want to seem selfish because she really has been dealing with a lot and doesn't need more on top of that at this point. I'll just wait through the remainder of the visit and if things keep on as they have... I'll probably just tell her it's best that we split up. We can probably remain friends, at least (makes sense, since the past couple of days I've felt more like a distant friend than a visiting girlfriend to her).

(snip)

How is "I know you're going through a rough time and I want to help/at least not make it worse" selfish?

[Coidzor]

Spoiler: Asexual Spectrum Stuff

Show

How on earth would one even proceed with someone who doesn't know if they're asexual or demisexual because they have never been particularly close to anyone who wasn't of the same-sex and confirmed to not be of interest?

Also, what is that? What even is that?

Is that a way of saying, "by the way, we aren't actually friends?" A challenge to get to know one another better, literally rather than as a euphemism? A request to be more distant with one another?

An honest expression of confusion that doesn't mean anything, but should temper expectations?

Something completely different?

Now for something completely different.

What do you do when you're close enough to someone for them to tell you fairly private details about a meltdown or what's going wrong on their end, but talking to them when they are in the midst of one makes everything worse and they won't tell you that things are bad then and there so that you can either talk about it or know to give them some time and space, only afterward?

How is "I know you're going through a rough time and I want to help/at least not make it worse" selfish?

Well, in my case it seems like a prioritization of my desire to talk to them and help, even if just by listening over their desire to go brood and be alone. Maybe.

[AliceLost]

I appreciate the support. Honestly I don't think I'll really raise the matter to her-- I don't want to seem selfish because she really has been dealing with a lot and doesn't need more on top of that at this point. I'll just wait through the remainder of the visit and if things keep on as they have... I'll probably just tell her it's best that we split up. We can probably remain friends, at least (makes sense, since the past couple of days I've felt more like a distant friend than a visiting girlfriend to her).

This is a terrible plan and I will explain why. There is a healthy level of selfishness that is important to maintaining a relationship. No, really.

It's all well and good to have the idea of a relationship where you put your partner's needs above your own, and they do the same for you, but there are lots of cases where nobody knows what your needs are better than you. Someone can't help you solve your problems (and you can't help them with theirs) if you aren't willing to prioritize them, and bring them up. A relationship is two people who care about each other and want to help each other. But you can't do that if someone doesn't know what they need.

What it looks like to me is that your girlfriend is going through a very difficult time right now, and she's stressed out by things that have nothing to do with you, and she would really like some comfort, support, and/or space. And she knows about your high levels of anxiety, and figures that any way she brings up needing space from you (for reasons that have nothing to do with you), or simply not having the emotional energy to support you because of other events, will be something you manage to assume is your fault. She doesn't want you to feel bad or responsible or burdened with things you can't control or fix, and so she's pulling away to try and insulate you from the difficulties in her life that you can't fix.

I could be wrong, obviously. Maybe your relationship is just over, but if that's the case there's nothing left to lose by talking to her. But from your description, it sounds to me rather like she's trying not to be selfish because she knows you've been through a lot and doesn't want to bother you with her problems. And if your response to that is to be hurt and offended, but not bring it up because you don't want to be selfish and bother her with your problems...then the two of you are literally acting out a sit-com romance, where you will both drift apart and separate because you both figure you can't bring up your issues because the other one doesn't want to deal with it. And the rule holds true that if what you're doing could be the plot of a sit-com, you should probably rethink your approach.

Talk to her. Talk to her! If she really has pulled away from you and doesn't want to deal with your issues and has fallen out of love with you, then you'll get confirmation and the two of you can make a clean break. But if she's feeling the same way, that she's tired and overwhelmed and trying her best to shield you from her drama and not sure what else to do, then the two of you might be able to make a plan to go forwards. Not one in which you actually have to share all of your burdens, but one where you can be open about it. Long-term relationships are a lot of work and compromise, and sometimes you have to accept that you don't get the thing that you want, but it's much, much better to have a frank and honest conversation about "I want this" and "I'm sorry, I can't do that right now", than it is to sneak around assuming you know what your partner's current capabilities are. Because, as above, it sounds to me like she's trying to save you from her "selfishness" in the same way you want to, and I can guarantee that if the two of you keep on that course you will drift apart and break up, without either of you actually wanting it.