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2016-07-23, 08:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
Is it because Zombies are supernatural creations empowered by the Negative energy plane? If you take something up and power it with 100% evil, it's reasonable that it should have an evil alignment, even if it does not itself have the ability to understand the difference between good and evil.
Where that gets really interesting is when you give a creature made from evil enough intelligence and wisdom to be able to understand good from evil for itself, and choose to act against its own nature. In such case, the moral struggle would be far more intense than it would be, say, for a celestial or a human.
ISTR there was a case story of a succubus-paladin. If the creature had been born a human, she would probably have been a saint of legend. As it is, when your entire being is made of evil you probably qualify for Exalted if you can just push your character to act in a manner humans would consider "true neutral". The sheer willpower it must take to do the smallest good act -- to toss an ant outside the house instead of squashing it -- say -- must be incalculable when literally every fiber of your being is pushing you to act in the opposite way.
Respectfully,
Brian P."Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
-Valery Legasov in Chernobyl
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2016-07-23, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
I think it is more likely that Zombies were labeled "evil" before the concepts of good and evil were given deeper considerations than "let's invent some enemies for paladins to use smite evil against". From what I read in this forum, D&D developed from a (morally) rather simplicstic world view. Concepts like "good orcs and goblins" sprang into exsistence a couple years later, or do I have the wrong impression?
Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!
I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.
I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
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Sometimes, being bad feels so good.
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2016-07-23, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
Roy and Mike are the same in the sense that they are both LG and both act in accordance with what they consider to be "the right thing"
Miko was lead astray
I doubt that Eugene is LG. A LG charecter would not torment his son.
But even if he is then there are similarities between them
Belkar and Thog are both CE.
But Belkar wants to better his alignment. .. a CE creature that wants to improve himself is no longer CE
What makes Belkar and Thog different? They both enjoy killing and have both killed ALOT
Thog could just as well be a member of the OOTS ... he just wants to kill... he might not care what alignment his victims have... same as Belkar (he killed the oracle)Last edited by tsj; 2016-07-23 at 09:04 AM.
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2016-07-23, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
Maybe. On the other hand, "evil" seems like a pretty good term to use to describe an untiring machine designed primarily for violence that is incapable of mercy, with no limits on the depths of the depravity it is willing to sink to save for the imagination of its controller.
If weapons can be evil, why not zombies?“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2016-07-23, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
You can thank Tolkein for that. He set down a lot of the fantasy tropes we still use today, and in LotR Orcs and Goblins (of which the distinction is less clear) are an always-evil race. So when you want something in a movie or novel for your heroic, white, (probably) male protagonists to fight, orcs are an easy go-to.
That being said, webcomics are actually really good about subverting that sort sort of thing. They are still sometimes SEEN as evil by other races, but then you get to know them and you find out they are quite a bit more complex. Dominic Deegan was one, Goblins! is another. Then there's this comic:http://www.daughterofthelilies.com/
Where one of the main 4 characters is a Lawul-Good Orc.
So if you want examples they are out there, you just need to look for them. A trying to defend or excuse Thog doesn't help your cause (IMO) more than using a different character would.
For most of the comic they were very similar- I think Belkar might have even started off as CE as well. He's recently been showing some improvement on the morality-front, but it's definitely a recent development. If Belkar had been part of the Linear Guild and Thog had been with Order of the Stick would Thog's temperament have improved? Maybe, maybe not. But that doesn't excuse the fact that he was/is unrepentingly evil in his own right.
@deepbluediver: I assume Elan is a LG goody twoshoes that (mentally) lives in LG Elan land due to low mental stats...
Lead by whom? The Giant has said that most of her positive traits are thanks to Shojo's guidance and mentorship. The quote is something like "he was the tape the held her together, which is why she went to pieces when it was pulled off".Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2016-07-23 at 12:54 PM.
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2016-07-23, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
The difference between Belkar and Thog is that Belkar wants to avoid being punished for being CE. He wants to be allowed to stab people in peace, so he's making some effort to learn how to stab people in ways that the world around him accepts and encourages. Whereas Thog doesn't really care if he gets punished; he can have just as much fun smashing things and people in prison as outside of prison.
That said, it is potentially true that Thog's Evil desire to smash things could have been used for Good purposes, as Roy is doing with Belkar's Evil desire to stab things. But that's not how things worked out. And anyway, Evil acts directed by an outside influence toward Good goals are still Evil acts.
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2016-07-23, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
Off topic for a second, but the distinction is pretty much down to whos speaking. Orcs and goblins are the same creatures. The name "orc" is the elvish term for the race, so the elves, Gondorians and Dunedain all use the word Orc. Hobbits and dwarves tend towards goblin, and you will notice that in The Hobbit, when there aren't any elves or Men in the party, they pretty much exclusively call them goblins. They will also call them Uruks, which is the Black Speech name for the race called orcs, although sometimes they will use it to refer to the Uruk-Hai as well, which makes it more confusing still.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2016-07-23, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
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2016-07-23, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
There is a certain correlation between the goblins in the Hobbit being smaller and weaker than the Orcs in the LotR, but that's more a case of geography and the orcs being in an actual conquering army as opposed to just random groups of non-militant cave dwellers. Biologically they are the same.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2016-07-23, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
Roy is multiclassing into Psychic Warrior
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2016-07-23, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
The negative energy plane isn't evil. If you can survive being there, your good-typed spells will be just as powerful, your evil-typed spells no more powerful. (Compare to Hades, where good-typed spells are weakened and evil-typed spells are enhanced.) If you go to the negative energy plane without negative energy protection you'll keel over quickly from the ambient negative energy, but you'll die quickly on the positive energy plane too (one quickly reduces your hit points, the other heals you to full...and when you're fully healed and it tries to heal you further, you explode).
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2016-07-23, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
No. No no no no no no no. Absolutely not.
Alignment does not dictate actions. Actions dictate alignment. And you're completely failing to take into account personality. If Indiana Jones is thrown into a pit of snakes and Sallah rescues him, Sallah is Good. If Indiana Jones is thrown into a pit of snakes and Bob wants to rescue him but is unable due to his crippling fear of snakes, that does not necessarily mean that Bob is Neutral; Bob was just scared ****less. If having an alignment meant you had to act in a very specific way, D&D would be a very different game, and OotS would be a very different story.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2016-07-23, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-07-23, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
This.
I've often wondered whether Eugene could get kicked out of "Cloud Purgatory" on the Celestial Mountain's base because he's been caught at least once actively braking the rules.
It could be thatifwhen Xykon is destroyed Eugene will be permitted entry and will spend an unusually long time on the lower levels of Mt. Celestia. Or he might get kicked out to Neutral Good heaven. I don't see him been neutral enough to end up in True Neutral territory, though.
Has this topic been addressed in previous threads...or is that a silly question?
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2016-07-23, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-07-23, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
They WERE somewhat alike, but then again there's only 9 alignments and a whole heaping pile of characters; you have expect a certain amount of overlap. And while the company you keep can influence a person's actions, it does not absolve you of your own responsibility. That's the point- each character is their own person, and something like "I was just following orders" is not an excuse.
Crystal seems to be on par (mentally) with Thog- are you going to argue that she's only evil because she worked for Bozzok?
Well there you go. Thank you.Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2016-07-23 at 02:00 PM.
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2016-07-23, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
Actually, now that I think about it, none of the most Chaotic-Evil characters who've had significant screen-time (Belkar, Thog, Crystal) display particularly astounding mental stats. It might be interesting to explore a little how The Giant (or other writers) use and/or subvert certain fantasy tropes, and how alignment determines personality and vice-versa. Everything below is obviously just what I think, but I'm putting this disclaimer here so I don't have to add "IMO" and "personally I believe..." to every line.
One of the best ways to show that a character has high Intelligence in writing or in movies (aside from having them spout some random scientific mumbo-jumbo) is usually to have them craft ridiculously complicated plans. Nale and Shojo are the best examples in this strip. So in fiction, "smart" frequently means the man-with-the-plan, or a long term thinker.
By contrast, the best way to describe the personality of a CE character is hedonistic- they do what they want in the moment. I want icecream? I eat icecream. I want to kill that guy? I kill that guy. If I can get icecream fastest by killing some guys I'll do both. Etc etc etc. So chaotic-evil characters are less likely to be the ones making plans, especially if they are in a group with characters who's defining trait is "smart" or "leader".
For a good example of a "smart" chaotic-evil character I tend to think of the Joker (sorry to step outside of OotS for a moment). I know some people complain that comic-book plans frequently rely on absurdly unlikely series of random events, but I have a different theory. The Joker (and characters like him I guess) doesn't have a plan- he's just really really adaptable. And then when a series of events lines up in his favor, he claims afterwards that that was the plan all along.
I'm not really sure I was trying to reach any conclusions here- these are just a few thoughts I had. Anyone else want to weigh-in?
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2016-07-23, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
While Xykon's Intelligence and Wisdom are debatable I do find that he is both smart and wise (not necessarily astounding but above average and possible significantly so).
Also with DnD evil chaotic gods and powerful demons do exist and can plan perfectly well to achieve their aims - Loki seems to be Chaotic Evil and has plans and plots from before the world was made for example.
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2016-07-23, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
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2016-07-23, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
Liches get +2 to all their mental stats (Int, Wis *and* Cha, although Xykon being a sorcerer would presumably have been pretty high on the latter anyway). Add to that the +1 to mental stats that you gain at various age categories (middle aged, old aged and venerable), all of which Xykon must have got while he was alive, means he's sitting on +5 whatever he started adulthood with--so even if he was as stupid as Thog when a young man, which he clearly wasn't, he'd be average intelligence now.
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2016-07-23, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.- Benjamin Franklin
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. -Evelyn Beatrice Hall
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2016-07-23, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
I'm a Lawful Good Human PaladinJustice and honor are a heavy burden for the righteous. We carry this weight so that the weak may grow strong and the meek grow brave
— The Acts of Iomedae, Pathfinder
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2016-07-23, 10:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
So were "idiot", "imbecile", "feeble-minded" and "moron", once upon a time. Language evolves. You're really, really not going to find many people in the intellectually disabled community using that as the term. You can do some reading on something called the "euphemism treadmill" if you're curious.
Last edited by DaggerPen; 2016-07-23 at 10:53 PM.
I am: Neutral Good: -2 chaos, -21 evil and 15 balance!
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2016-07-23, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
What, exactly, do you think constitutes a display of "particularly astounding mental stats"? And Crystal's Neutral Evil, anyway.
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2016-07-24, 12:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
My 2 cents on this discussion:
1. if you want a good orc hero in literature, check out the series literally called Orcs by Stan Nicohls. It has a protagonist by the name of Stryke, leading an orcish warband that fights against an evil sorceress, said orcish warband also has a dwarf accepted into their ranks who is just one of their friends.
2. I'd consider Xykon a smart chaotic evil myself. He knows what he wants, how to get it and what price to pay, and is willing to pay it. He knows exactly what kind of person he is, being fully aware that is the most card-carrying villain on the face of the planet and is perfectly ok with it, revels in it, takes advantage of it, and how to play it out for his advantage. I wouldn't put his Int very high, but his Cha must be really high for him to cast his spells and his Wisdom must be real good in my opinion. He notices things, he is real street-smart as opposed to book smart, he knows when to stop being flashy and stylish and just defeat his opponent with pure force, and he knows that he isn't good at long term planning or being subtle so he sticks to his guns and lets Redcloak handle those things. He is aware of his situation to a noticeable degree, enough to make him far more dangerous than your average B-List Mustache-Twirler. Its why he is the big bad: you don't get to this status without learning to avoid some of the weaknesses of lesser villains.
And as Start of Darkness shows:Spoilerthere is some things he does prepare on, and there is times where he has a plan not because of Int but because of Wis. Where he was aware of how everyone would act in the situation he was in: he knew that Dorukan would be lured out by Lirian. He knew Right-Eye would try to betray him, and he knew Redcloak would kill his brother to make the plan go through no matter the cost, and even if RC didn't do as he bet he would, he had a back up plan just in case. Then he knew what to say to Redcloak to make him keep going along with his plan while still rubbing how far he has fallen in his face. No amount of Int will allow you to do that.
Finally, Xykon knows how to balance pleasure with pragmatism. When to stop having fun, when to start, things like that.
3. Int and Wis have no connection to morality however. If that was true, Vaarsuvius would be far better than mere Neutral and would've never made the choice to go through the soul-dealy thing that they regret now, and Redcloak- being a character with REALLY high stats in Int, Wis AND Cha- would be the most moral character in the comic, but, he is Lawful Evil. and then is ol' Tarquin's scores, he can't have done it without some Wis, and his knowledge of many different kinds of fighting speaks of some Int, while everyone in Elan's family has good Cha, and we all know how evil he is.
All Int and Wis do is determine how much information you have and how sophisticated your decision making is. and you can do Good even if your lacking info and can't make real sophisticate decisions, its just that you'll probably end up making a lot of mistakes that you'll have to fix because of it. Heroes being too stupid or unaware to figure out what they breaking and reaping the consequences of doing so is a common trope after all.
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2016-07-24, 01:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
I don't recall saying anything about 3rd-edition? I only said they were always-evil in LotR, which AFAIK is true.
I don't know exactly, but Crystal, Thog, and Belkar are all called out as being below-average in at least some mental stats.
I was more interested in the correlation between morality and PERSONALITY, not morality and stats. The latter argument has already been done to death.
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2016-07-24, 01:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-07-24, 03:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
Deepbluediver:
Yes Tolkien had a huge impact on fantasy.
He invented non green orks.
That is why I consider SRD orks to be Tolkien orks.
Even if SRD orks can have green pigmentation.
They are nothing more than monsters in my opinion
Thog might be supposed to be half orc. But he is drawn as a green (warcraft) orc and I view him as such.
Consider also that SRD orks are always evil.
SRD half-orcs are supposed to be ashamed of being part ork.
The (proper) green orks are already covered in other universes such as war craft and war craft has a d20 book that can be used in d&d3.5.Last edited by tsj; 2016-07-24 at 03:23 AM.
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2016-07-24, 03:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!
I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.
I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
Want to see my prison tatoo?
*Branded for double posting*
Sometimes, being bad feels so good.
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2016-07-24, 04:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1045 - The Discussion Thread
I think your description of "smart chaotic evil" meaning "smart to adapt" fits pretty well with Xykon.
It also fits very well with Tarquin, but I think Tarquin is more lawful evil, because planning and adhering to some kind of personal code is much of his schtick.
Sometimes it's hard to put characters with different aspects into a scheme with 2 nominal dimensions of 3 expressions each.
-> 9 possible classifications are sometimes not enough to describe the multitude of aspects of characters in detail.
More specifically, I always find it hard to peg down an alignment when a character shows traits of different descriptions.
For example, how about a character that follows a strict personal code, but leaves a mess wherever he goes, because he is just not putting things in order?Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!
I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.
I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
Want to see my prison tatoo?
*Branded for double posting*
Sometimes, being bad feels so good.