"What I need is a ranged attack"

[ChillerInstinct]

(which makes me wonder now if Thor's sending that expensive-repair-making storm after them didn't actually shoot himself in the foot there... but they may not have had time to stop regardless)

Funny you mention that, Bandana claims they needed to stop to refuel anyway. Which means they would have bought the supplies anyway, and still have several tens of thousands of gold in their back pocket, or at the very least would have been able to buy MORE supplies. Nice job breaking it, Thor. :P

[skim172]

While I have little patience for the people who regularly insist Roy should multiclass and stop pretending the fighter class has any justification to exist, this throws me. He's mistaken that having a ranged attack would have been really useful here?

I think Roy could've been a bit more resourceful. Sure, Durk-face has an anti-life shell up - no reason why Roy could've have picked up a couple rocks and chucked them at his head. Okay, by standard D&D rules, that wouldn't do anything, but imagine it: Durk-face, all smug sitting in his anti-life shell, and then BAM! rock to the face. The image of that alone would've been funny enough to be worth it. And maybe it might've distracted him enough to make him lose concentration. Who knows?

I wonder if Roy could've caused a masonry collapse, like he did with Thog? His starmetal sword is super-powerful - might've been able to take out a supporting pillar.

[Keltest]

Whether or not Roy should have grabbed a bow in gnomeland when they stopped, Roy has noted, repeatedly, that without his sword he is less combat ready than Elan before he got his prestige class. Yes, I get he has a thing about that sword. But he's supposed to be the "smart" fighter. He has recognized the problem multiple times in the past. It was, in fact, so bad that Belkar called him out on that particular call. So I would say that yes, making himself even more reliant on having this particular greatsword available as a weapon at all times is a particularly boneheaded move destined to lead to sorrow.

[Jasdoif]

Whether or not Roy should have grabbed a bow in gnomeland when they stopped, Roy has noted, repeatedly, that without his sword he is less combat ready than Elan before he got his prestige class. Yes, I get he has a thing about that sword. But he's supposed to be the "smart" fighter. He has recognized the problem multiple times in the past. It was, in fact, so bad that Belkar called him out on that particular call. So I would say that yes, making himself even more reliant on having this particular greatsword available as a weapon at all times is a particularly boneheaded move destined to lead to sorrow.

The interesting part here, is that since getting a ranged attack out of his sword wouldn't cost him anything, he could still pick up a ranged weapon. Whether that's funny or sad (or both) is debatable.

Anyway. So far, the cheapest option I've come up with for Roy is a sling (no cost), 20 rocks (no cost), oil of magic weapon (50 gp assuming the standard CL 1), and silversheen (250gp). It'd bypass a vampire's DR and still allow Roy his Strength bonus on damage rolls. Admittedly the single oil is only enough to last through about half the rocks....

[DaggerPen]

The interesting part here, is that since getting a ranged attack out of his sword wouldn't cost him anything, he could still pick up a ranged weapon. Whether that's funny or sad (or both) is debatable.

Anyway. So far, the cheapest option I've come up with for Roy is a sling (no cost), 20 rocks (no cost), oil of magic weapon (50 gp assuming the standard CL 1), and silversheen (250gp). It'd bypass a vampire's DR and still allow Roy his Strength bonus on damage rolls. Admittedly the single oil is only enough to last through about half the rocks....

If anyone's going to attack the vampire with a sling, I think Belkar has super dibs.

[zimmerwald1915]

If anyone's going to attack the vampire with a sling, I think Belkar has super dibs.

We literally have bonuses for this!

[Rogar Demonblud]

If Belkar's going to throw stuff, he'd be better off using Holy Water. It bypasses the DR and Belkar doesn't want it near him anyway.

[Jasdoif]

After review I'm revising my earlier answer; I forgot some details about ammunition costs, so I'm ditching the silversheen approach. The cheapest option I see now would be a sling (no cost), ten alchemically silvered sling bullets (20gp and 1sp), and an oil of magic weapon (50 gp).

That's less than a quarter the cost of my earlier proposal (and cheaper than a basic longbow), so it should be simple enough to outfit Roy and Belkar if they can find someone who has special ammo on hand...plus, we're talking about literal silver bullets; there's got to be some sort of circumstance bonus to be eked out there.

[Peelee]

plus, we're talking about literal silver bullets; there's got to be some sort of circumstance bonus to be eked out there.

There's a +5 reference bonus if he wears a domino mask.

[factotum]

I think Roy could've been a bit more resourceful. Sure, Durk-face has an anti-life shell up - no reason why Roy could've have picked up a couple rocks and chucked them at his head. Okay, by standard D&D rules, that wouldn't do anything, but imagine it: Durk-face, all smug sitting in his anti-life shell, and then BAM! rock to the face. The image of that alone would've been funny enough to be worth it. And maybe it might've distracted him enough to make him lose concentration. Who knows?

Antilife Shell doesn't require concentration to maintain--it's a fire and forget spell that will last its rated duration regardless of what the caster does. So, any amusement obtained by a rock hitting Durkula in the face would have been rapidly erased by the knowledge that the attack did absolutely nothing to help stop him.

As for a masonry collapse, the entire meeting hall didn't have any supporting pillars (apart from the ones supporting the balcony around the edge, which were nowhere near Durkula), and whatever Roy's sword is made of, using it to hack at rock walls is not a strategy calculated to enhance its life.

One last point: Roy is undoubtedly the most intelligent member of the Order besides Vaarsuvius, and probably has one of the highest Wisdom scores as well. (See: Mind Flayer choosing to attack him over anyone else in an early strip). Do you seriously imagine he didn't consider every possibility you just mentioned?

[Manty5]

You could always use the "poor man's returning" aka doing what Ray said he should have done and tie the sword to his wrist.

I even saw a modern fishing reel in the Gnome town montage. Lets hope there's a stowaway who likes fishing...

[Mightymosy]

How about flying boots, a wand with Flying, or extended flying spell from V?

[Nightcanon]

Pssh, tell all that to the legendary warhammer, Aegis-Fang... It is not like Rich is above bending the house-rules, and extending the uses of 'returning' is not past the scope what we have seen him do to change some rules (like a modified flesh-golem with full memories, for instance). With the right mage, anything can do anything!

?? As far as I can recall, the archetypical D&D returning weapon is the Dwarven Thrower, which was a warhammer which in the hands of a dwarf with both gauntlets of ogre power and a belt of giant strength, returned magically to the thrower. Returning hammers are very much core; swords not so much.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Personally, I don't see why you'd complain about Roy choosing this path instead of being a little more optimized. I mean, this way if he actual can get this to work he shoots green energy from his sword instead of a boring old bow.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How about flying boots, a wand with Flying, or extended flying spell from V?

How would any of those help with the anti-life shell?

GW

[Deliverance]

Whether or not Roy should have grabbed a bow in gnomeland when they stopped, Roy has noted, repeatedly, that without his sword he is less combat ready than Elan before he got his prestige class. Yes, I get he has a thing about that sword. But he's supposed to be the "smart" fighter. He has recognized the problem multiple times in the past. It was, in fact, so bad that Belkar called him out on that particular call. So I would say that yes, making himself even more reliant on having this particular greatsword available as a weapon at all times is a particularly boneheaded move destined to lead to sorrow.

Granted that D&D isn't particularly hung up on small issues as the impracticality of carrying both a composite longbow and a greatsword with you wherever you go, the Giant would have to find some way to draw it that wouldn't look stupid, and I'm not sure he's up for that.

Anyhow, Roy uses his sword. It is his thing. Roy deciding to rely on some other weapon to solve problems just because it would be more practical would be a significant character development in its own right.

[tsj]

That "even if" is kind of important? V himself is a level 14-15 wizard who couldn't dream of casting Familicide even if he wanted to. Haerta, on the other hand, was the most powerful epic necromancer the IFCC could find in whatever part of Hell they control, and was the most powerful of the three soul splices V had at the time by some margin--she was probably, what, level 30+? That's a pretty darned significant difference in power there.

Sure but even without soul splices.. V is still way more powerful than any +5 flying returning great sword with all kind software crazy effects adding up to at least +10

At least outside of the OOTS universe

I guess not all DM'S would allow really "powerful" melee weapons like this... but the OOTS are in any sense pretty high level as it is anyway

I would never deny a pure fighter to eventually get whatever crazy extreme whatever sword of ultimate doom because the sword would never ever be able to cause any problems

Of course very special and specific effects could be problematic but certainly not returning

[Peelee]

Sure but even without soul splices.. V is still way more powerful than any +5 flying returning great sword with all kind software crazy effects adding up to at least +10

Then why did you feel the need to bring up Familicide as a proof of power differential?

[tsj]

Then why did you feel the need to bring up Familicide as a proof of power differential?

Because Roy would never be any use for the soul slices

[Peelee]

Because Roy would never be any use for the soul slices

Imean, I get that, but why is it relevant? If your point is that you would be willing to power up straight fighters because of the power differential, then adding in a specific conditional that most players would not ever get to the power differential does nothing to help your argument, and moves focus away from your main point.

[Mightymosy]

How would any of those help with the anti-life shell?

GW

Granted, you picked an example where a ranged attack helps much more than the suggestions I made as an alternative, but dropping rocks from above might still have been better than climbing the shell and trying to stab Durkula from above, as Roy did initially.

Honestly, the stunt with Lady of Odin's spear in #1004 reasonably shouldn't have worked anyway, which could have stopped Roy way before the antilife-shell spell.

IF Roy can learn to shoot beams Zeldar-style, sure, no need, but up until the point Roy learned he had an ancestral magic something weapon I think any of my suggestions would have been nice alternatives to getting a ranged attack, and surely better than having neither.

Anyway, in a world where some people can shoots fireballs from their fingertips and you yourself can only hit people with medieval weapons, not carrying the kind of weapons that at least allow you to do so from a distance if needed, asks for trouble.

[Pyron]

How would any of those help with the anti-life shell?

He could throw the boots and the wand.

[littlebum2002]

Granted, you picked an example where a ranged attack helps much more than the suggestions I made as an alternative, but dropping rocks from above might still have been better than climbing the shell and trying to stab Durkula from above, as Roy did initially.

In trying to prove that Roy needs a ranged attack, he used as an example the situation that taught Roy he needs a ranged attack.

Then, you happened to suggest things that weren't a ranged attack and that wouldn't have helped in that situation. I, and I'm sure most people on this thread, have no idea why you did this.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He could throw the boots and the wand.

And V.......

GW

[Keltest]

And V.......

GW

Unless wands are made of tiny treant wizards and boots of flying are made by strapping pixies to boots, throwing V is a significantly worse plan than throwing the boots and wand.

[Kish]

Granted, you picked an example where a ranged attack helps much more than the suggestions I made as an alternative,

As an alternative to what? You seem to be trying to have a different conversation here than most of us.

Roy wants a ranged attack. The thread's about him getting a ranged attack. This is specifically him responding to the anti-life shell incident. The "What gear upgrades should Roy ask Santa Stick Figure for?" thread is over there. And hasn't been started yet.

[theasl]

(which makes me wonder now if Thor's sending that expensive-repair-making storm after them didn't actually shoot himself in the foot there... but they may not have had time to stop regardless)

Funny you mention that, Bandana claims they needed to stop to refuel anyway. Which means they would have bought the supplies anyway, and still have several tens of thousands of gold in their back pocket, or at the very least would have been able to buy MORE supplies. Nice job breaking it, Thor. :P

I always just assumed Thor was drunk, like the first time...

[DaggerPen]

Funny you mention that, Bandana claims they needed to stop to refuel anyway. Which means they would have bought the supplies anyway, and still have several tens of thousands of gold in their back pocket, or at the very least would have been able to buy MORE supplies. Nice job breaking it, Thor. :P

Conversely, if they hadn't stocked up on supplies and had elected to just keep going, there'd have been no teleport orb, meaning the plan to control the dwarven council would have been up the creek without a paddle.

[Mightymosy]

As an alternative to what? You seem to be trying to have a different conversation here than most of us.

Roy wants a ranged attack. The thread's about him getting a ranged attack. This is specifically him responding to the anti-life shell incident. The "What gear upgrades should Roy ask Santa Stick Figure for?" thread is over there. And hasn't been started yet.

Oh sorry. I thought Roy wanted a ranged attack because of issues like the antilife-shell in #1011 where he couldn't reach a target at a distance with his sword. Which would be a reasonable wish for someone who can only do melee so far, and is planning to take down a lich who is capable of raining meteor showers from above.
That's why I suggested alternatives to ranged attacks per se.

If you don't care for such strategical considerations and want to focus strictly on ranged attacks only, please go ahead and ignore my previous posting.
(Also, please don't put stuff in White that I'm supposed to read. I'm likely to miss it, or read it so late that my actual post has already been made.)

[Mightymosy]

In trying to prove that Roy needs a ranged attack, he used as an example the situation that taught Roy he needs a ranged attack.

Then, you happened to suggest things that weren't a ranged attack and that wouldn't have helped in that situation. I, and I'm sure most people on this thread, have no idea why you did this.

I imagine that in a lot of situation where you want a ranged attack, it is because the range of your sword can't hit your target. So you can fly to your target to hit it with your sword from close range. Or, if your target is tougher than you can handle, you can at least try to fly out of their range (for example, what could Roy have done in O'Chul's and Lien's stead when they were attacked by the ice dragon thing with a sonic attack? A ranged attack could be good to take it down, or flying close to it to attack it, or fly away from it if it is too strong).

Sure, in the antilife-shell situation flying wouldn't have been the best solution, I admitted that. But since Roy plans to fight against a lich sorceror who in their previous fight threw Roy down from the skies and shot meteors at him while flying, I thought of strategic options for Roy that were about as useful as a ranged attack, in similar situations.