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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    Is an acre to big of a sum of land to give to the party even if most of the land is mountainous and hilly save for a few spots thus making building more of a hassle? I wanted to give my party land as a reward for completing a long and difficult quest but I'm unsure if its too much. The land is also tainted so the party would have to do more in order to grow anything in the spots where the soil isn't just rocky but actual dirt

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    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    One acre would be a tiny parcel of land, and practically unusable if it's also mountainous terrain. If you want the reward to have meaning, a forty-acre parcel (and a mule) would be more substantial while still not being excessive.

    If you're not sure how much that is specifically, one acre is roughly 75% of a football field. Plenty of land to build a house and a small subsistence farm, but beyond irrelevance for an adventuring party.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2016-07-24 at 06:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frywick View Post
    Is an acre to big of a sum of land to give to the party even if most of the land is mountainous and hilly save for a few spots thus making building more of a hassle? I wanted to give my party land as a reward for completing a long and difficult quest but I'm unsure if its too much. The land is also tainted so the party would have to do more in order to grow anything in the spots where the soil isn't just rocky but actual dirt
    First off, context. Is this a combat-oriented game like D&D, where the PCs would rather be out adventuring than clearing brush? Or is it a more medieval style game, where land ownership is a huge deal? Without that, it's hard to say whether a gift of land - any amount of land - is too much.

    That said, did you really want to give them land? I mean, it doesn't actually sound like it. Consider the following.

    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would probably have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    At that point, I don't think anyone would want the pancakes even if you paid them to eat them. It sounds like you decided to give the PCs some land, immediately regretted the idea, and then decided to make the land so undesirable that the party would reject it.

    It's a simple question. If you want the party to have land, give them land. If you want the land to be part of some sort of quest (e.g. clear the gremlins away to secure it, or till the soil and discover the hidden labyrinth below) then it's fine to make the land a bit more complicated, but otherwise just make it a simple transaction.

    As a rule, I try to avoid rewards with strings attached, unless those strings lead to additional plot or rewards. If it's just a reward, just give them the land; if you're uncomfortable with the amount, give them less, or more, until you feel better. But don't tack on all of these problems unless you really want them to reject the reward altogether, in which case, why give it to them in the first place?
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    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Consider the following.

    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would probably have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    At that point, I don't think anyone would want the pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    An acre isn't much land even if it's all arable. Like, really not much. 660x66 feet, according to quick googling.

    Keepin mind I'm from the US, and Alaska in particular. I grew up on ten acres, for a point of reference. Our place now is on about 0.23-0.25 of an acre, and it feels claustrophobic even though it's pretty much all useable to some extent.
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    Too big for what purpose?

    To put up a personal residence?
    No, that should be sufficient.

    To put up an estate, with room for followers, training halls, labs, libraries, and such?
    Barely, particularly since you describe the area as mountainous and difficult to build on.
    On its own it would qualify as a garden plot for a family that would provide vegetables, but that is on decent land.

    For a farm sufficient to feed the PCs?
    Not even close.
    120 acres was expected to support a family, but again, that is on reasonably good land.
    Up in rough terrain you would need 3-5 times that at least, even more if the land is tainted.

    So how much do you expect the PCs to be doing with this land?

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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    Why are you giving them land in the first place? What is the context? What sort of game is this?

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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    I get the feeling that you don't actually know how big an acre is and that you grew up in a tiny city apartment. Hopefully the others' explanations are sufficient - the pancake thing isn't an exaggeration; it's pretty accurate.
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    An acre is smaller than a football field (either type of football).

    Giving them an acre of poor-quality land is, if anything, a back-handed insult rather than a reward, unless it's to build a house or something rather than to start a farm (let alone a barony). If you want to give them a farm, especially on poor-quality land, start thinking in terms of hundreds of acres. If you want to give them a barony or fiefdom, start thinking in terms of, at the very least, dozens of square miles.
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?



    That's apparently a one-acre plot. Small for a farm (especially in intensive western agriculture), but a nice garden (especially in densely-populated western cities).
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiery Diamond View Post
    I get the feeling that you don't actually know how big an acre is and that you grew up in a tiny city apartment. Hopefully the others' explanations are sufficient - the pancake thing isn't an exaggeration; it's pretty accurate.
    The pancake metaphpor seriously underscores just how small an acre is. When square, an acre is roughly 205 feet by 205 feet. Using standard D&D notation, this is 41 squares on a side. 4 Meteor Swarm spells would be enough to cover the entire thing. A running horse can cross it in a single round. A longbow is barely penalized for the distance. Acres are tiny plots of land unless you're in a crowded city.

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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
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    But yeah. An acre of land is more symbolic than functional. Great for building a house, or perhaps a smithy or kennel or somesuch. And a necessary prerequisite to being considered one of the landed gentry. But not some monumental gift, at least not in the middle of a fantastic wilderness, and certainly not if laced with blowfish poison rendered mostly unusable by geography and contamination.
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    On the other hand, this would be plenty of land for an estate on stilts. Really, all you need to make it a long-lasting structure is a wizard. Move Earth to dig out large post-holes for the foundation, fill those with stones, Fabricate to merge those loose stones into solid stone pillars, Wall of Stone to create the floors, then build it up from there. What's more is they don't even have to worry about ground-based vermin by that method!
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    If you're into gardening, an acre is a lot. If you're into surviving on the land or making a business out of it, then it's nothing. If you're in a city and possess an acre of building area, you are quite wealthy. If you are in Paris, either you are an Arab prince, or I have no idea. Remember that a parcel of land can acquire a much higher value if certain conditions are met, like cities expanding, roads being built, administration changing its seat, water channels being made available, and so on. If your players were to work hard, given what adventurers can do, they could end up creating a metropolis around their plot, which would actually be pretty cool, if they are into admin games. Then you can play Monopoly instead of D&D ;)
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    Also, OP didn't say it's DnD. This is a system-agnostic section. Also, please don't dismiss any game that isn't DnD.
    Last edited by goto124; 2016-07-24 at 07:27 PM.

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    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    Quote Originally Posted by goto124 View Post
    Also, OP didn't say it's DnD. This is a system-agnostic section. Also, please don't dismiss any game that isn't DnD.
    I don't think that it was a dismissal, just pointing out that D&D is not a game about urban property management, but Monopoly is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    As others have said, 1 acre aint a lot. I mean, you can have a decent sized house on it, but thats about it. And again, mimicing others, what game is this, as thats important.

    For scale i grew up on an 80 acre farm, which is fairly roomy, but at no point would i call it huge. Hell id say you could barely fit a Thorp on there once you add in the space needed for agriculture, especially if they have livestock. Animals take up a fair amount of room.
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    Until you tell us location, purpose, character level, and character goals, it's a tough question to answer.

    It's certainly not enough land to build a farm to support even one person, if that helps.

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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    I believe that the reason an acre is the size it is, is because it was originally supposed to be the amount of land that one farmer and one ox could plough in a day.

    Approximately, of course. And bearing in mind that the actual answer to that would vary enormously based on soil type, soil quality, elevation, temperature, and how fit and well fed both the ox and the farmer were to begin with.

    So in farming terms, it's tiny. One day's work.

    In building terms, it's a fair-sized plot. You could build a very nice home on that, plus outbuildings, and possibly have enough room left over for a tennis court. Within a city it would be a lot of land. In the middle of nowhere? - it's nothing. You can buy land in Texas - right now, today - for $100 an acre or less.
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    For what purposes? How many people are in the party? For the purposes of making any kind of living or farming, that's basically nothing. It's enough to build a house for an extended family with a workshop or two, but not much more. Considering the land is stated to be of incredibly low quality (mountainous, rocky, and tainted), and it doesn't seem too much by any stretch. Heck, depending on context, this can be downright insulting, the kind of thing a landed noble might use to ensure its obvious which of their vassals was liked the least.
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    I've had players will whole countries and ownership of things like a quarter of a plane of existence, depends on how it's handled.
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    I believe that the reason an acre is the size it is, is because it was originally supposed to be the amount of land that one farmer and one ox could plough in a day.

    Approximately, of course. And bearing in mind that the actual answer to that would vary enormously based on soil type, soil quality, elevation, temperature, and how fit and well fed both the ox and the farmer were to begin with.

    So in farming terms, it's tiny. One day's work.[/
    Yep.
    Including the qualifications.
    Only note to add is that a farmer can have more than one ox, and thus be able to plow more than one acre in a day.
    (And there are archaic measures for that if people want to look them up.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    I've had players will whole countries and ownership of things like a quarter of a plane of existence, depends on how it's handled.
    As it happens, my current campaign is about owning a kingdom.
    So yes, D&D can be about owning land.
    And yes, it depends a lot on how it's handled, as it can easily devolve into bookkeeping with no adventuring.

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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    You can buy land in Texas - right now, today - for $100 an acre or less.
    Wait seriously? I'm almost tempted to buy an acre or two just for the sake of saying I own land in Texas.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    What are you afraid that a party will use land for to break the game?

    If we're talking about "is a +20 longsword too much pluses for one longsword to give to the party?" then we're thinking they'll take the longsword and trivialize at-level enemies' defenses or make the wielder of the sword take too much spotlight, and so on.

    But if you're talking about giving the players land that they will then have to un-taint, it almost seems like the more land the better. Give them one thousand acres of tainted, mountainous land. They can have an adventure to find what's responsible for tainting the land and cleansing it, and then when they're done with the quest, let them build their homes on the land. Considering they'll normally be out adventuring, it really doesn't matter how huge the rogue wants to make his mansion, it won't really come up in the campaign. And if it does, it's almost like the bigger his mansion, the better, because then you could have entire scenes play out in it when the players are defending it from attackers. If the players want to have people work the land and collect the revenue from it, you can arbitrarily set how much revenue they get from it by making vague statements about how much of the land is unfit for agriculture, or how much of it is still messed up from the after-effects of the taint.

    I really can't think of how this land-as-quest-reward scheme can backfire.
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hytheter View Post
    Wait seriously? I'm almost tempted to buy an acre or two just for the sake of saying I own land in Texas.
    Oops, sorry - the best I can find right now is 10 acres for $2000 (including fees), which is double what saw a few days ago.

    Still pretty affordable, I reckon. If you don't mind the fact that it's (presumably) completely useless for most anything, and probably opens up more liabilities than opportunities.
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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    living in turkey if you have a land in good location you can make huge profit just by renting few houses in apartment and from were I look at it 1 acre is enough area to put one apartment complex and maybe a pool so its up to players with profession tycoon class skill hell they might found oil(or any major resource) in there to sell for decent profit so we need info of the land and party mate

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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    One acre of desolate, rocky wilderness would make an excellent political insult for a noble to gift somebody they don't like so that the other gentry can laugh discreetly at them.

    I think one of my Exalted had an acre-sized palanquin. I seem to recall forbidding my slaves to put wheels on it to make hauling it around easier. Because then it would be a wagon, and only peasants get carried around in a wagon.

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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    In BECM D&D, which had a whole set of rules on land ownership and dominion resources, a 24 mile hex is considered to be a normal starting land grant for a single PC.

    An acre of land is a pathetically small amount - even speaking as someone in the crowded middle of England.
    An acre of spoiled land is worse - it's an offence. I'd only take it if I believed I could make it so awesome through my skills and powers to be an insult right back at the a-holes who offered it.

    Of course, it may be that the land is the only thing the PCs' patrons have, in which case I'd humbly help them restore it and gift it back to them.

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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    If you are trying to "raise" them to the social level of peasant farmers who own their own family farms, forty acres of moderately good land each is the bare minimum.

    Of course, giving them a farm would end their wandering days, unless they ignored it.

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    Default Re: Is an Acre to much land to give to a party?

    An acre of mountainous terrain... once I cleared the taint I'd build an underground stronghold. With plenty of traps for defense, maybe hire some tough types as guards. Store my treasures there - wait... I'm just building a dungeon at this rate.

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