Sorcerer Rework

[Kryx]

Hi,

After my long support of the Sorcerer needing some small buffs I decided to take it a step further and better define the flavor of the Sorcerer class. In the playtest stages the Sorcerer was cut and brought back by WotC which seemingly left it with little playtesting. The Sorcerer doesn't have much of a niche beyond metamagic and is often outclassed by a Wizard.
With that said I have no desire to discuss the merits of a Sorcerer buff/rework as we've had many of those threads since 5e released. I would instead like to discuss the direction that I'm looking to go in.

I created Kryx's Sorcerer with the following changes:

• Spell list expanded to now include the Wizard's spell list as the normal list was rather lacking in many key spells.
• Spells known expanded from 15 to 15+10 from a set list which is still far less than the prepared amount of other 9th level casters: Druid's 25+8, Cleric's 25+10, and Wizard's 44+ spells known and can prepare 25+2
• Archetypes are more defined. Archetypes have been expanded from 4 abilities to 7 (capstone replaced so it's really just 6). The abilities are generally stronger and provide the vast majority of the flavor for the class. (see the last page for balance of these)
  • Metamagic extracted from the class in order to allow for more defined archetypes. It also makes it easier to present the metamagic options to all casting classes if they are not tied to one specific class. Metamagic options are now available as feats. See Balanced Metamagic Options as Feats if you'd like to see how that works.
• Short rest minor spell recovery via Sorcerous Restoration which now gives a few points back on a short rest, but still pales in comparison to Wizard or Land Druid recovery.
  • 6th level abilities make up for the lack of short rest recovery. They are effectively 1 specific extra 4th level spell per short rest.

Please read the document and let me know if you have any suggestions. The main questions I have about the current state:

• Is it interesting and compelling to play?
• Is it powerful enough? Is it better than the old version? Can it compete with a Wizard?
• Is the general archetype plan a good mix of offensive, defensive, and flavorful options, or should it change before I expand it to add more archetypes?
• Is it balanced? There is some math on the last page for the 6th level features. 20th level features are balanced around 3rd level spells (same as Frightening Presence)

I have included links to each Pathfinder bloodline that I used as a reference for ideas so feel free to look there as well.

Thanks so much for taking the time to look and for any feedback provided. Thanks Sharkforce for the feedback so far!

[SharkForce]

ok, so to answer a PM question:

sorcerous origin is on the second page, right column, near the top (just underneath spellcasting focus). it only lists the PHB origins, and doesn't reflect your updated version which gains subclass abilities at more levels.

for the record, your new sorcerer is still very much the master of metamagic, btw, because it can use spell points which are a much more abundant resource than metamagic points. this is a relatively minor concern for the low-cost, situational metamagic techniques (like careful spell or distant spell) since the feats you've made will likely give enough mmp for all expected uses in a day, but it makes a very major difference when we're talking about the more expensive ones like heighten or twin.

aberrant origin i still feel like acid damage isn't super thematic, and if your source material is what i think it is, warping the body (probably necrotic) or mind (psychic) would fit more.

i had mentioned i wasn't very excited about stormborn previously, and i'm having a hard time pinning down exactly what it is that makes it so "meh" to me. but i think it's a combination of some effects being somewhat underwhelming to me, with some of the abilities having anti-synergy. i have a hard time getting too excited about a 10 foot reposition that gets you out of a fight (and really, how useful is flying when it's only 10 feet in the first place?) and an ability that is only useful if you're *in* the fight in the first place to deal some added damage in an area around yourself. then you've got further anti-synergy when the 14th-level ability comes along (just how often are you expecting to be close enough for either ability to matter when you're flying all over the place). heart of the storm isn't superior damage or superior AoE, and comes with a pretty major limitation in where it can be used. maybe a range increase combined with just needing a high ceiling like call lightning could help. storm's fury... well, let's just say i think there are better ways to use your reaction for a class with the shield spell on the spell list that uses the spell points mechanic. hurricane is weaker than your newest versions of the level 18 abilities, which all now basically act as a pretty severe disable (though i'm relatively fine with that in the current incarnation, i'll come back to this later as i'd like to address the level 18 ability philosphy in general), while hurricane only lifts people above the ground and deals some very minor damage.

wild magic: i'd specifically call out that you removed "at the DM's discretion" type stuff.

living paradox: still not quite satisfied with the feel of the ability. you're going with immunities as your guideline, which is fine, but it just doesn't feel very wild to be immune to poison or disease or even crits. i guess my reaction ==> cause wild surge on attacker ability doesn't fit, but i just don't feel like there's much build-up to suddenly having galaxies instead of guts inside you. so i decided to look elsewhere for inspiration: slaadi, the embodiment of chaos. the most common abilities of various slaadi are magic resistance (not quite immunity), regeneration, shapechanger, and innate spellcasting. now, spellcasting is already covered by being a sorcerer, but those other 3 have some potential. shapechanger isn't an immunity, but it *does* mean you auto-save against polymorph. maybe give immunity to having their form changed against their will. magic resistance is also not immunity, but i feel like it's close enough to consider as a possibility. regeneration isn't an immunity per se, but it does act like one in a lot of ways. on the other hand, just handing out true regeneration might be too much. that said, i would like to make it clear that i'm not suggesting turning into a slaad, just using them for inspiration. another possible immunity would be to teleportation effects (against your will), representing that there's almost a field of chaotic energy around you that prevents such spells from getting a "lock". another good chaotic-feeling immunity might be charm effects and dominate spells. all of these together is too much i think, but i figure it's good to give you some options to pick from that would perhaps feel more "wild". you could also look to fey for inspiration, as they would be another typical "wild" and "chaotic" type of creature.

overall, i'd say this version of the sorcerer is a bit stronger than the default. i don't think it's massively stronger relative to other classes when taken into consideration along with metamagic feats being available to all, but i do think it packs a bit more punch than the PHB sorcerer, and i do feel like having more subclasses adds a bit more flavour.

[Kryx]

Fixed Sorcerous origin, thx.

Metamagic: Sorcerers are still good at metamagic and have points, but they don't get them by default. and if they do use more than their character level they're casting far less spells than other full casters so that case should be balanced. The only problem would be cases where GMs aren't using full adventuring days and Sorcerers can burn through all of their slots. If that happens a GM should adhere to that adventuring day or make some kind of alteration.
The same would be true for the spell point version of any class (I'm also planning on doing spell points for Warlock). I think the cost of less spells overall should be ok in a balanced game.

Aberrant: The source material is linked in the document. "Inspiration: Aberrant Bloodline". Aberrations vary wildly as it's a term used as a grab bag for everything weird. This isn't necessarily a mindflayer bloodline, but just weird. I included the (basic) fluff: "There is a taint in your blood, one that is alien and bizarre. You tend to think in odd ways, approaching problems from an angle that most would not expect. Over time, this taint manifests itself in your physical form." Aberrant mind and Thought Shield are directly from GOO Warlock. The other parts are mainly from the linked bloodline (Long Limbs, Acidic Rays, Aberrant Brain[ala Alien Resistance]) or my own idea (Aberrant Horror)
Psionics (ala mindflayer) should probably exist as it's own option. Potentially a bloodline.

Acidics rays is a bit weird, I'll give you that. Though Aberrations are very weird. Did you have a different idea in mind?


Storm Sorc: Flying 10 could be nice to fly over a small gap (though most could probably jump it). The real benefit is the OA avoidance. I think the fly is just there for flavor. Seems a bit weak in comparison to Armor for Dragon, telepathy for Aberrant, and Wild Magic Surge/Tides of Chaos for Wild Magic, I'll give you that. By 14th level I think you mean Storm's Fury (which is now 10th). There is indeed some weirdness here where there are a lot of melee options. Storm's Fury is basically a fire shield in lightning form. Costing a reaction could be a problem, but it seems like a good defensive option. Perhaps it just surrounds you any time you cast a spell? And to fix the melee issues perhaps change heart of the storm to be creatures equal to your Charisma modifier up to 30 feet away. In that case I think a flat amount would be better than Sorcerer level. It would be better at early levels and not equal to 75 damage at level 15 or 100 damage at level 20. Maybe Charisma + spell level?
Hurricane, unlike the others, does damage. It does 1d10 each round + 10d6 at the end. Though you're right that the CC isn't as hard as the others.

Living Paradox: I actually think the flavor of this fits the Wild Mage perfectly. Basically their body is not really a body, but is mechanical, or galaxies, or something else crazy. No body and no blood = no crits, no disease, and no poison. I think this makes perfect sense! But perhaps my inspiration of the Impossible bloodline is the wrong inspiration for a chaos mage. Relativity and Distracting Pattern don't scream Chaos to me.
I think I'll re-examine some other options to see if there is more of a chaos theme to go with.

Slightly stronger than the PHB Sorcerer is my goal as that is rather weak in comparison to other classes (primarily Wizard). It sounds like you like the direction so far. :)

[SharkForce]

aberrant: i think trying to use "all aberrations" as an inspiration is a bit of a problem. when you copy from the GOO lock it makes me assume you're drawing on the GOO lock's source of inspiration, which is not mind flayers or beholders or aboleths so much as the ctchulhu mythos (which admittedly many aberrations also draw on for inspiration, but usually only in part). psychic damage is just the closest thing i can think of to sanity damage ;)

storm sorc: when i referenced 14th level, i meant flight. most of the time, you're not going to be parked right next to enemies in aerial battles, which means you probably don't need a 10 foot reposition or a 10 foot radius damage aura.

living paradox: the entire theme of wild magic is basically chaos. uncontrollable, unpredictable events happening as a result of your casting, probability manipulation, luck alteration, etc. even the name suggests shades of chaos.

anyways, i promised i'd come back to the level 18 abilities, and now that i'm back i will address the issue i have there.

basically, here's my problem: the effects you're describing are very powerful. which is not in and of itself a problem at level 18, of course. the problem is that the resource cost is wildly inappropriate. an AoE incapacitate + immobilize with no escape condition is vastly more powerful than the hypnotic pattern effect you're drawing from, but costs the same. and not only is it very inexpensive, it completely bypasses the limtation on the number of high level spells you're getting. i'd say the effects are at least as compelling as many of the symbol effects, but symbol has a 1 minute casting time and an expensive (and consumed) material component as drawbacks (though the symbol does also enjoy much more variety). and is limited to 1 use per day until level 20, when you can finally get a second use.

so not only are you undercosting the abilities (which is bad, but not catastrophic in and of itself), you're also allowing the sorcerer to use what are, practically speaking, at *least* the equivalent of level 7 spells (quite possibly 8, though not quite 9 since wish gives the full power of symbol with no casting time or material components while these are much more in line with getting only a single option from symbol with no casting time or material components) in basically every single fight. and that is something the designers have been quite careful to prevent to the best of their ability.

[Kryx]

Wild Magic is more chaotic now as I've replaced many of the wild magic features I had before with options from the protean bloodline as well as my own ideas.


__________

Aberrant: My inspiration is linked on the document - it's the Aberrant bloodline. Aberrant just means something exceptionally weird. That could be the aberrant creatures or cthulu style mythos as well. In general it's up to the player to decide what makes them "alien and bizarre". Slaadi are known as proteans in Pathfinder. I use Proteans (beings of chaos) as inspiration for Wild Mage so Aberrant shouldn't use the same source.

Aberration is such a mixed bag that doing it first was probably not the best idea. I think there is a lot of flavor to the alien mindset though and I think what I have is pretty close, but the identity is missing a bit. I'm going to put it on the backburner for now in favor of a more concise identity.

Storm Sorcerer: Flight is just flight. There is nothing more to it. If you're saying that "Tempestuous Magic" becomes unvaluable as soon as you start flying I don't quite agree. It becomes less valuable as less creatures can reach you, but it still has value if you're being attacked by another flying creature. Do you have suggestions for how to improve/replace it?
I'm still looking to refactor some of the things to have more range as mentioned above.

18th level abilities: I've removed the wild magic distracting pattern, but the discussion is worth having anyways. Hypnotic pattern is 3rd level spell that costs 5 points. Distracting pattern emulated hypnotic pattern in every regard except the break mechanic and also costs 5 points. I'd encourage you to look at PHB 252 to see how strong Hypnotic Pattern (a 3rd level spell) can be.
Emulating a 3rd level spell for the exact same cost at level 18 isn't unbalanced. I think the only difference was the removal of the break condition. With the break condition still there it was a rather worthless feature as it was available 13 levels ago for the same cost.

But lets look at some current level 18 abilities:
Aberrant Horror: This is harder CC than Frightful Presence - more in line with Symbol. This is rather strong.
Frightful Presence: This is essentially a large radius (60 foot aura vs 30 foot cone) of fear. Fear forces them to dash away. Fear gives a saving throw if they're out of line of sight. This doesn't, but possibly could.
Overall this is a slightly stronger 3rd level spell.
Hurricane: This is currently softer CC (though hard CC for nearly the whole Monster Manual who has no ranged attacks) and a bit of damage. It appears as the weakest of the bunch, but due to lack of ranged weapons on monsters could be incredibly powerful. I'm unsure if this is really the way to go with this archetype though. I continually come back to "Ride the Lightning" as a fun idea.
Spatial Tear: This is an escape followed up by a 4th level spell that has mediocre damage and great CC.

18th level abilities should be worth using. For the most part I'd say only Aberrant Horror is too strong currently, but that's only because it lacks an escape/avoidance like the rest have. If I add some kind of escape to aberrant horror (perhaps similar to the "get out of the aoe" like Frightful Presence) then I think they're all decently balanced with eachother.

Though perhaps instead of costing points they should be usable once per short rest.

[SharkForce]

i have no problem with level 18 abilities being powerful.

i have a problem when the level 18 abilities that are roughly equivalent to level 7+ spells can be used indiscriminately, when the designers have put in roadblocks to specifically ensure that you can't just spam those very high level spells all over the place.

edit: and just to be clear, i'm not saying that wild mages are chaotic. i'm saying that wild magic is chaotic. a wild sorcerer could *hate* the disorder that surrounds them, and it could drive them crazy that their magic keeps doing all these weird things. it could drive them to only use magic when they're desperate and all other options have been exhausted. nevertheless, their magic is chaotic, whether they themselves are or not.

[Kryx]

Only Aberrant Horror is based on a 7th level spell. The rest are based on 3rd level spells.

Though as I mentioned they should probably be once per short rest.

[SharkForce]

they're based on 3rd level spells but without end conditions like the third level spells have. meteor swarm is probably "based on" fireball to a large extent (and delayed blast fireball is unquestionably based on fireball), but because they're stronger than the spell they were based on they're higher level.

we already have examples of spells that shut down multiple enemies in a large area without an escape condition built into the spell. none of them are level 3. when it comes to spells that completely 100% shut down enemies from being able to act meaningfully in combat, you go even higher level. completely denying enemies in a large area from being able to participate meaningfully in combat with no way to end the effect early is *not* a level 3 effect.

[Kryx]

Hurricane does not do what you describe. The creatures are still able to act.
Spatial Tear does not do what you describe. It is Evard's (4th level) + dimension door.
Frightful Presence potentially does.

Now, I challenge you to make an 18th level ability that fears people, is not too weak, and is not too strong.
Some references: Intimidating Presence (Berserker Barbarian), Fear, Eyebite, Symbol (fear), Menacing Attack (Fighter Battle Master), Abjure enemy (Oath of Vengeance - lasts for 1 minute or until damaged), Avenging Angel (Oath of Vengeance - lasts for 1 minute or until it takes any damage).
This can be used once per short rest.

As you said frightened isn't a very hard CC condition.

[SharkForce]

again, i don't mind the sorcerer having an 18th-level fear (or whatever) ability that is worthy of being used at level 18.

i mind it if they can use it over and over. things that are the equivalent of level 6-9 spells shouldn't be usable as often as level 3 spells. especially when we're talking about how often a spell-point caster can cast level 3 spells.

if these were "1/day things" i wouldn't mind from a power perspective. yeah, they're powerful, but ultimately it's like getting an extra level 7 or 8 spell per day... that's an awesome ability, and will allow the sorcerer to perform very well in one additional fight per day, but it shouldn't ruin the game.

(though on the flip side, if they were 1/day, they would do a lot less to define the subclass unfortunately).

oh, and uhhh... hurricane pretty nearly does shut many things down. in hurricane-force winds with as much water mixed in as you seem to be suggesting, they'll have disadvantage on perception (sight and sound) checks, disadvantage on ranged attacks that originate from their own space, and won't be able to fly under their own power unless they're using magical flight (and maybe not even then).

(spatial tear is a new ability that is much less of a problem)

[Kryx]

July 28th, 2016 updates:

• Added Celestial, Infernal, Undead, and Verdant Bloodlines. Mothballed Aberration for now.
• Level 6 features are the power of a 4th level spell (available at 7th level normally) available on a short rest. Effectively extra spells.
• Level 18 Features are the power of a higher level spell available on a long rest.
• Moved Sorcerous Restoration to 9th level as a result of 6th level abilities on a short rest cooldown. With that and the 6th level feature it should be equivalent to the Wizard recovery.
• Metamagic items slightly adjusted to pick 1 greater and 1 lesser (or 2 lesser), but comments should go in that thread. Only relevant because sorcerer gets it once for free.

I think the 18th level features are generally balanced. Spatial Tear is less powerful, but it's 2 spells in 1 so I think that's ok. They have to be once a day or we're breaking the high level spells restriction. We're already doing it slightly with the high level feature, but Draconic Sorc does that and others do as well so that should be ok as long as we don't allow spell points to cast it again.

Let me know if you have any suggestions for these archetypes or any new ones.

[Kryx]

Added Shadow Sorcerer. Shadow Lord (18th) is very similar to the undead one. The flavor of the shadows fits it even better than the undead one. If anything I'd replace the undead one, but I think it's fine to have the slight duplication. Several other things are very similar as well.

[Ze_Azrael]

I will start by saying that I am a fan of many of your fixes and shamelessly stole or was inspired by several of your houserules. I also like the variety of origins and how chock full of flavor they are.

That said, I think they're on the 'too powerful' side. Before, there wasn't much incentive to play a Sorcerer. I feel with your changes, there wouldn't be much incentive to play a Wizard. As a quick example, I'll compare the Undead Bloodline Sorc to the Necromancy Wizard as they have a very similar role.

From Base class
Sorc gets Metamagic, Spellpoint Flexibility, Extra SPs, SPs back on Short Rest.
Wizard gets Ritual Caster, the ability to copy spells they find, Arcane Recovery, Spell Mastery.
Arcane Recovery works out to be fairly similar to the bonus SPs Sorcs get from Font of Magic, so they could be slinging a similar number of spells per day. Arcane Recovery is also limited to 1/day whereas Sorcerous Restoration isn't.
They both have the same Spell list (at least that's what I understood. If you just gave the Wizard list to the Sorc in addition to their own list, then Sorcs actually have a bigger selection now) and they're not egregiously behind in number of Spells.
Ritual Caster plus being able to copy and prepare spells is great, it gives the Wizard a lot of utility and flexibility. Spell Points and Metamagic give the Sorc a different kind of utility and Flexibility... these are hard to compare.
Spell Mastery is just an amazing feature, nothing else to say.

From Archetype
They both get Grim Harvest and Undead Thralls, but the Sorc gets a free extra casting of Animate Dead every Short Rest.
They both have Resistance to Necrotic, the Wizard gets this at lvl 10, the Sorc at lvl 3. The Wizard gets the added benefit of their HP maximum not being able to be reduced, while the Sorc gets the added benefits of Poison Resistance, AoE damage and a heal.

So far the Sorc is WAY better than the Wizard.

Wizards can control a powerful wild undead they encounter.
Sorcerers get a way to impose Disadvantage on attacks against them for one encounter every Short Rest; Resistance to BPS weapons; an AoE Fear plus DoT and BA damage, another way to impose Disadvantage on attacks but this one potentially against the entire party 1/day; their Resistances are upgraded to Immunities and they get Immunity to Poisoned and Frightened.

Now as I said before, Spell Mastery is an amazing feature, but I don't think its THAT good to make up for all of the above...

All the other Archetypes are in a similar boat I'm afraid. I feel you give 'Ribbon' abilities too big of a mechanical benefit and this results in a power build up. Another example that jumped out at me is Verdants have a Thorny Barkskin, the Life Cleric's level 6 feature but applicable to all kind of spells (and potentially heal for more), don't need to eat, drink or sleep much if they're not in constructed areas, and they get all of this at level 3

I think you can keep a lot of the flavor and ribbons without them needing to be so mechanically impactful and overload the class.

--

With that out of the way, I had a couple other random comments before I have to leave.

For the Dragon and Infernal Claws you might want to add whether the Claws use Strength or Dex and add the relevant modifier to their damage, unless its intended for them to deal a flat 1d8.

The Breath Weapon interaction with the Dragonborn would read better something like "If you are a Dragonborn, whenever you use your racial breath weapon you may choose to replace its effects with those of this ability"

I don't like how the Undead and Shadow have basically the same level 10 and 18 abilites. I love the Shadow Lord Aura (you might want to state whether the Grapple uses your Spell Save DC or what) but the Undead just feels like a weak ripoff. I had a wacky idea for the Undead aura to raise Specters (or some other type of undead creature) out of any creature who dies inside the aura. It's fairly unique and I think does a good job in portraying the spirit of the Archetype. Perhaps something along these lines plus some DoT?
For the level 10 defensive feature you could bring back the Undead Fortitude, maybe following the Long Death Monk's method of having to spend some Spellpoints to remain at 1 HP instead of 0?

Verdant's level 10 ability you might want to restrict it to CR 2+ creatures. Not that I think it's like super exploitable or anything, but it would be more consistent.

The Verdant's level 20 feature gives them half of their level 14 feature and has a really cool name that doesn't match what the ability does. I don't have any suggestions though...

There are other minor things that would be improved with an editing pass. I could volunteer but I do think you should give it another balance pass first.

[Kryx]

Hi Ze_Azrael,

I'm glad to hear that you like some of the previous things that I've done and thanks for providing feedback on this project!

Firstly I'm glad that you like the flavor - that was my intention when creating this Sorcerer Rework. The mechanics and balance are still in progress, but it's getting closer. More on that later. I'll do the easy stuff first:
Dragon and Infernal Claws: The wording matches other cases like Aarakocra. Effectively you use strength. They're really more for flavor than raw DPR. I consider those parts ribbons.
Dragonborn Breath weapon wording changed to match what you have.
Undead/Shadow 18th level abilities: This comes from the Oathbreaker. Both versions are very close to the original (with the alterations in fuschia). I created shadow after undead and I agree that the flavor fits shadow far better than it does undead (or Oathbreaker). Raising undead out of dead in the area is something you'd do after the battle has already been won - not such a great combat option, but could be useful before a final boss fight by using his minions against him. If we want him to be about minionmancy then that would be the option to go. Not sure that's a great idea though.

Instead I added that it can use circle of death or finger of death once per long rest. I added a line about breaking the grapple for shadow.

Undead level 10: Ya, I think the shadow form fits the shadow sorcerer better than the incorporeal form fits the undead. I've replaced it with the monk of the long death's ability, but it costs 2 spell points as sorcerers have way more of those than monks.
Verdant level 10 ability: Polymorph isn't limited by the CR of creatures. If you are able to convince little forest creatures to help you then worst case you get 5 CR 2 creatures.... Hmm perhaps 3 awakened trees or 10 awakened shrubs. It's effectively a 5th level spell which puts it in the same power as Conjure elemental which gives us a CR 5. This way still lets you use it to disguise your party members, but it can also be used to get some fighting trees on your side.
Verdant level 20: level 20 abilities are fairly consistent across the board with most offering immunities of sorts (see the archetype template at the end). The level 14 ability requires that you not move. Level 14 could heal for crazy amount of hp: 10/rnd for up to 50 rounds = 500 healing max.
I've fixed that by making it 1/short rest to heal for 4d8 = 18 on average = ~54 on a whole day.
Verdant's Regrowth: Regrowth isn't a ribbon feature. It is decently powerful, but compares to heart of the storm. Heart of the storm damages enemies within 30 feet for spell level + charisma if you cast thunder or lightning. Regrowth heals you for spell level + con (lower than charisma) on all spells. The whole package is ok - barkskin instead of mage armor as 1st. Brambled skin is more ribbony as you hopefully will not be getting hit much in melee. The internal balance here is ok, but you may be right about external balance in comparison to other classes. Thoughts?

Regarding overall balance:
The goal is that the Sorcerer fills a niche of exuding magical power - nearly everything about the class is about casting spells. Their "effective spell points" per day ends up being higher than other classes and many of their abilities trigger off casting spells.
I created Caster Comparison to give a better view of the casters. It should help me balance better and help others see the balance.
On page 2 of that sheet I compare Dragon vs Evo and Undead vs Necro. I made some adjustments below.

• Reduced sorcerous restoration to lower. I forgot that Arcane recovery was 1/long rest.
• Metamagic removed from sorcerer entirely
• "Undead Thralls" renamed to "Rotting Thralls" for sorcerer and removed the line about being able to get 1 more undead (kept the other improvements).

Wizards and Sorcs share the same list, ya. There are about 5 spells that would be added to the Wizard. I actually wouldn't mind the lists being separate, but the gap is too wide. Perhaps I should instead identify the differences and move about 1/3-1/2 of the differences over to the sorcerer list.

Level 10+ is pretty balanced imo. The early levels are in the Sorcerer's favor, but I wonder if that should really change much.
In the Evocation vs Dragon case
level 3 the Sorcerer has lost 2 metamagic options and the hp bonus on draconc resistance in exchange for charisma on spells of the dragon type, darkvision 60, and claws(these are a ribbon)
level 7 the Sorcerer has lost the above, but has gained the breath weapon.

I don't think that is too much of a boost, potentially not as good. The loss of Metamagic definitely hurts as careful spell is no longer an option without a feat. On the Wizard side it can now take Metamagic which were previously unavailable.

If we compare the whole package to the Wizard the difference in versatility is still there. Wizard can swap his spells every day. At 7 the wizard knows 18+ and can swap them out to prepare 11. Sorcerer has chosen 8 and has 8 chosen for 8 for a total of 16 prepared that he cannot change until he levels. Seems like a fair tradeoff in that regard.

What do you think? Should I reduce the power of the 6th level features a bit?

[Ze_Azrael]

I'll do the easy stuff first this time too. I agree with the Wizard's advantage of picking their spells. I don't think you really need to reduce a Sorc's number of spells and I'll comment on the overall power and how to differentiate it from the other casters so there's still incentive to pick either later.

First, the Caster Comparison you linked isn't public, dunno if intended or not.

Archetype Template You're missing Shadow Bloodline.

Divine level 6: The damage is lacking a type, I assume it's radiant?

Claws: You're right on the wording. However I just noticed that you state they give you proficiency. I believe the Errata clarified that everyone's proficient in unarmed strikes. Also if they're meant to be mostly a flavor ribbon, perhaps toning them down is a good idea. They don't do much for the Sorc as they are anyways but they're amazing for a dip (Monks would love this). Most features that increase your unarmed damage take it to 1d4. Alter Self takes it to 1d6 (+1 Magic weapons) but as a second level spell that requires concentration. If you really feel this needs to be more powerful than a first level Monk or an Aaracockra (sp?) then maybe 1d6 but I think 1d8 (best simple weapon die) is just too much for a flavor ribbon not central to the Archetype.

Undead level 18 ability: Yeah it was just an idea to differentiate it, basically I pictured something like Spirit Guardians that immediately raises Specters (or some other minion) under your control for the duration whenever a creature falls in the area. I like that you changed it to differentiate it though.

Undead level 10: Does fit the flavor a lot better, but it just occurred to me that a Sorc has ~70 SP when they get this and ~150 at level 20. This means they could be next to impossible to take down if they wanted to. Perhaps add a maximum number of times they can do this or progressively increase the cost? Maybe add the "unless radiant or crit" other Undead have? Not sure, but being able to chill for 7 minutes in the center of the Sun without breaking a sweat seems too much.

Verdant level 10: I get that this isn't meant to be a super powerful / offensive feature, but Polymorph does have a CR restriction. This one isn't a balance concern so much as a consistency one. I do like the new flexibility of doing Trees or Shrubs.

Spoiler: Polymorph

Show

The new form can be any beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or the target's level, if it doesn't have a challenge rating)

Wild Magic level 3: First, you begin the sentence with "Also starting at 3rd..." but this is the only feature they get at 3rd level. Second, you state on the template that this provides them with more Tides of Chaos (did you mean Surges?), but the way the ability reads is it emulates a spell, not actually casts it. I would clarify what your intent is, my guess is you mean they can cast Alter Self without expending a spell slot X times/day and this means more chances on rolling for Surges (and thus getting back Tides of Chaos), right?

Dragon level 3: I never liked how Elemental Affinity was heavily unbalanced in the element choices, and your bonus spells help ameliorate this a little. What I did was allow a Dragon Sorc to change the element of any energy damage spell to match their Bloodline X times/day (something like CHA or 1+CHA). This greatly opens up spell lists while keeping it from being a 'free pick whatever you want and forget about it' ability. A White Dragon Sorc can cast Frostball but they're likely still going to take Ice Knife. I also think it adds a lot to of cinematic flavor.

--

Ok so I think defining what your intended niche for the class is helps a lot. With the removal of Metamagic (which I agree hurts) I think we can say the class' shtick is basically "being able to cast more than any of the other casters". If that's the case, I think Sorcerous Restoration comes too late, or just doesn't fit. I get that they get an increase in SPs that effectively works out to be similar to Arcane Recovery, and that Sorcerous Restoration isn't meant to be that big of a thing but here me out.
From a design perspective, I think all Sorcs should share a common framework, even if they're more deeply distinguished via their Archetype. If the theme is they're this big battery of magical power that needs no recharging and can just keep on casting when other classes are expended, then Sorcerous Restoration kinda goes against the theme, requiring the Sorc to take a break to keep on casting.
If the theme is more that they're somewhat similar to a Warlock in that they can take a breather to rapidly recharge part of their magical battery (since Sorcerous Restoration isn't restricted 1/day), then having to wait until level 9 for this isn't awesome.
Either way I think it would be a good idea to define their intended niche and tweak the base class slightly to clearly get this across.

I think if you settle on a core niche the Sorc should fulfill, you can use that as groundwork to differentiate the class enough from the versatile Wizard or the jack-of-all-trades Bard, etc. so that each class has its appeal and place in the game.

Onto my point of overall balance. I won't argue the nitty gritty mathematics with you since you're better at this than most, but I'll try to give a more broader look into things.

The way your class is built I think the most analogous existing class would be the Cleric. Both are full casters with bonus spells, and they both provide a fairly bare framework on their base class that gets most of their distinctive gameplay elements from their Archetypes. Cleric Domains are very mechanically packed and drastically change the way a Cleric looks, feels, and plays. Bloodlines do the same thing while reinforcing the 'well of magic cast, cast, cast' theme.

Cleric gets the most Archetype features at 5. One of these (level 8) is consistent across all domains and feels almost like a customized Base Class feature. Sorcerer gets 7. A few of these (most notably level 20 and 14) are fairly consistent across all domains but they're more diverse in application than the Cleric's.

Clerics get
- Bonus Spells; Bonus Proficiency and/or some other way to differentiate them from other domains
- 1 powerful bonus spell-like ability in their Channel Divinity
- either 1 moderate additional CD or a different moderate ability
- the Divine Strike/Potent Spellcasting feature
- a powerful capstone ability.

Sorcs get
- Bonus spells; Defensive feature (AC, Resistance or HP); Bonus Proficiency and/or some other fluff-heavy feature
- a mixed bag of mostly damage (AoE), survival, and fluff. Of note is that you've given half the Bloodlines a way to add their CHA to damage
- a free spell or spell-like power of ~4th level power (one level earlier)
- moderate to powerful defensive feature
- mobility increase
- a powerful free AoE spell or spell-like power
- powerful defensive feature, sometimes with a decent bonus

Clerics (along with Rogues) are probably the class that gives double features (two abilities at the same level) the most. Looking at the existing double features, they all follow a 'rule' of sorts. The most prominent double feature is Bonus Proficiency, which is the case with Clerics. Rogues tend to get an additional way to use their bonus action.
Some of your double features follow a similar pattern, but some are just two independent decent features. What's more, you sometimes give triple features. You seem to have made double features because you ran out of space to add in flavorful abilities, or because you tend to create smaller sized abilities. As a suggestion, a few of these double features could easily be packed into the same one (the new Grounded and Verdant Ground for example) to make for a more cleaner and consistent class.

Independently, I think most of your features are fairly well balanced and flavourful, and I think you did a great job balancing the class within itself (bloodline vs bloodline). My overall feeling however, is that the class is overloaded and this makes it unbalanced when compared to other classes. You have made some really cool features and while a lot of them aren't game-breaking by themselves, they quickly add up.
I get that when you're making homebrew you just have so many good ideas and everything you add makes whatever you're designing so much cooler; it happens to me often when designing magic items and it's really tough to decide what to cut but sometimes I take a step back and look at the whole picture and realize I've gone overboard.

My overall suggestions would be to cut down the number of features (casters generally get spells as a feature and have nothing at odd levels) and to merge in double features whenever possible, it just makes a class so much easier to read. A specific suggestion would be to make the 'AoE damage when casting a spell' ability into a feat, since I know you play more feat-heavy games and casters could use more cool feats.

I think giving a full caster class that already gets bonus spells, a feature that is literally just 'cast this spell' is a little underwhelming. You already give them bonus 4th level spells, I would avoid giving them a free casting of one as their level 6th feature. If you're keeping this to go with the 'cast, cast, cast' theme, I like the spell-like abilities of Divine and Wild, or things that augment their spells like Undead Thralls better. This also applies to some level 18 features, especially because other Bloodlines get really cool and different abilities than just a free spell, and because this is effectively your powerful capstone.

You also seem to shore-up some of the Sorcs innate weaknesses (like AC) a bit much. I personally think having to play around one's weaknesses is fun.
Somewhat related, level 20's immunities are probably fine (and I usually don't comment on level 20 features cuz honestly, who gets there) but I think as representative of becoming the ultimate sorcerer, they might not fit the concept too much. "I am ascended! I can alter the very fabric of reality with a mere thought! Bow down to me, mortals, for I no longer get sick or poisoned!" Honestly you can leave them and I don't really have any qualms about them, I just find it funny.

Lastly have you considered making one Bloodline into more of a gish? They're a very popular playstyle, it would provide more diversity, and with 8 Bloodlines I think 1 could easily be tweaked to better support this. It was also the second UA sorc released. My personal choice would be the Infernal due to their transformation mechanic (not many things are as scary as a demon up in your face clawing you to ash) and because it seems the easiest one. It might be too similar to the Fiend being the most optimal Bladelock patron but eh.

This is all of course just my opinion and I'm giving mostly 'critique' feedback in a constructive manner. I agree the Sorcerer needs an overhaul, I really like your take on it and would likely use it to replace the Sorc in my own games.

[Kryx]

Made that comparison public, sry!

Added Shadow to the list of comparisons
Added radiant to celestial bloodline
Claws: This, by itself, is on the power level of a cantrip (one of the worst - compare ray of frost for 1d8 at 60 feet and slow for 10 feet) and is meant to be used like a cantrip. I can make it an action to prevent any multiclass issues.

As an action you can make an unarmed strike with your claws (for which you are proficient) which deals 1d8 slashing damage on a hit.

Undead level 10: agreed, that was my concern as well. Monks can use it for 20 rounds though so that's 2 minutes. I'm surprised there is no limit there. Not sure how to add a limit though... Charisma times per short rest?

Verdant level 10: Ah, you're right there is a minimum CR for polymorph. Reworded:

At 10th level, you can you can transform willing creatures within 60 feet as the *polymorph* spell. You can transform 3 willing creatures who have a challenge rating or level of 2 or higher each into an Awakened Tree, or any 10 willing creatures each into an Awakened Shrub. The transformation lasts for up to 1 hour or until you lose your concentration (as if you were casting a concentration spell).

Wild Magic level 3: Removed "also". The wording was when I had moved part of it to level 1. I fixed it. In general the comparison is just for me working through the archetypes. I'll probably remove it at the end - not sure.

Dragon level 3: I agree that the elemental balance is not the best - hence why I added some more spells of different damage types. However I don't think opening up every spell to every damage type is correct on a flavor level. I would instead find Pathfinder spells to port for the appropriate level. Otherwise they could take Elemental Spell (from metamagic feats) to swap them over.

Strategy: 5e is flawed in that only certain classes need short rests. This creates problems of balance. Every class should benefit from short rests. It is my intention to have Sorcerer benefit from both short and long rests. Each Sorcerer gets a 4th level spell (6 Spell Points worth) per short rest which is very substantial. I had Sorcerous Recovery at 5, but with the 6th level ability giving 6 Spell Points per short rest (for only that 1 spell) I think it was too much so 9 is a better starting point. If you see the numbers on the comparison I put above I think you'll see what I'm seeing here based on the numbers.


------------------------
I'm running out of time to reply tonight, so the rest will be a bit short winded, sorry!

Number of features: Lets compare the full classes:

Bard: Inspiration, Jack of All Trades, Song of rest, Expertise, Countercharm, Magical Secrets, Superior Inspiration, 3 archetype features = 7+3 = 10
Cleric: Domains (Spells Prepared), Channel divinity, Destroy Undead, Divine Intervention, 5 archetype features = 4+5=9
Druid: Wild Shape = 3 tiers, Beast Spells, Archdruid, = 3-5+5=8-10
Sorcerer: Spells known, Font of Magic, Sorcerous Restoration, 7 archetype features = 3+7=10
Wizard: Arcane Recovery, Arcane Tradition, Spell Mastery, Signature Spells = 4+5=9
See https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...jvw/edit#gid=0

Sorcerer is within the normal range of total features. I purposefully do not want to cut down on the number of features as reducing them greatly reduces the flavor.

Independently, I think most of your features are fairly well balanced and flavourful, and I think you did a great job balancing the class within itself (bloodline vs bloodline). My overall feeling however, is that the class is overloaded and this makes it unbalanced when compared to other classes. You have made some really cool features and while a lot of them aren't game-breaking by themselves, they quickly add up.

I think you're getting a bit of sticker shock. Compare the amount of features I put above and the spreadsheet I made public and I think you'll see a different side. Maybe not.

Also keep in mind the class doesn't have metamagic anymore. You can effectively weigh the PHB Sorc + 10 spells like they should've had + 3rd level archetype + 10th level archetype + 20th capstone of immunities vs 4 metamagic options.

Double Features: For clarity these were split. For example Verdant ground can be used a certain amount of times and the heal can be used a certain amount of times. Those being on the same feature makes it hard to describe which recovers when.
There are only a few double features:

• Dragon sorc level 1 claws are ribbons so not really a feature.
• Dragon level 3 darkvision is such a small feature that it isn't worth a whole feature. Perfectly fine balance wise to put it next to cha to spells.
• Infernal level 1: I can move Dark One's Blessing to 3 to stack it with darkvision
• Verdant 1 & 3: When I created this I actually thought that regrowth was rather weak. I wasn't even aware of life cleric. Photosynthesis is entirely ribbon. Brambled could be part of thickened skin and just called out as starting at 3rd and regrowth moved to 3rd.
• Wild Magic Surge & Tides of Chaos: Was already on the same level. I boosted both though, but as written under "More Surges" that seems ok to me.

I think giving a full caster class that already gets bonus spells, a feature that is literally just 'cast this spell' is a little underwhelming. You already give them bonus 4th level spells, I would avoid giving them a free casting of one as their level 6th feature.

If you look at the other 18th level abilities they are basically high level spells. They are effectively the same as giving a spell to cast once per long rest. It's even better for spells that are not normally available (such as Wall of Thorns).

As I have it now 18th level abilities are like high level spells.
In the few cases where it makes sense to use a spell directly instead of duplicating wording it's easier to write it as I have. Both options are super flavorful for those builds.

You also seem to shore-up some of the Sorcs innate weaknesses (like AC) a bit much. I personally think having to play around one's weaknesses is fun.

I'm just giving the class flavorful options. Sorcerer already has perma-mage armor in draconic so applying similar to shadow should be fine. Verdant only gets barkskin for a 1 minute after casting a spell so that should be fine (that's based on the PF bloodlines). It's not purposefully to avoid weaknesses. And AC isn't really a weakness as Sorc and Wiz can already learn/cast 1 spell to negate it.

Somewhat related, level 20's immunities are probably fine (and I usually don't comment on level 20 features cuz honestly, who gets there) but I think as representative of becoming the ultimate sorcerer, they might not fit the concept too much. "I am ascended! I can alter the very fabric of reality with a mere thought! Bow down to me, mortals, for I no longer get sick or poisoned!" Honestly you can leave them and I don't really have any qualms about them, I just find it funny.

That feeling is what level 18 is for. 20 matches the Pathfinder progression of getting immunities then.

Lastly have you considered making one Bloodline into more of a gish? They're a very popular playstyle, it would provide more diversity, and with 8 Bloodlines I think 1 could easily be tweaked to better support this. It was also the second UA sorc released. My personal choice would be the Infernal due to their transformation mechanic (not many things are as scary as a demon up in your face clawing you to ash) and because it seems the easiest one. It might be too similar to the Fiend being the most optimal Bladelock patron but eh.

And we haven't seen anything of it in a long time for a reason while Storm became official. Gishes that are casters fail in concept alone imo. For example the Bladesinger is a caster with a tiny bit of melee - so much so that they are encouraged to stay caster 95% of the time by nearly every forum post.

Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, or custom classes like Swordsage make much better gishes. Melee with a bit of spells. Spells with a bit of melee just results in always using spells.

[gkathellar]

It looks very cool at a glance, but before I get in-depth, I just wanted to mention that there's a formatting issues with the Shadow, Storm, and Wild Bloodlines where they spill into a third column. That makes their capstones unreadable for me.

Also, I'm curious - how do you envision spell points for some but not all classes working with respect to multiclassing?

[gkathellar]

So, critique. This may come across as a bit terse, but that's because I'm going to run through everything.

Run a quick ctrl-f on your text at some point, you've got several cases of "or" being written as "ar." Moving right along.

You include some new spells. Who are they for, other than members of particular bloodlines? I know, the 5E header is bad in that it doesn't communicate that, so either you need to modify it, or indicate somewhere who's supposed to get these spells.

Also, a whole bunch of your bloodlines gain fly speeds at 14th level, but none of them have the same speed. This strikes me as odd.

At 1st level, you know three cantrips of your choice from the sorcerer spell list and an additional cantrip from your Sorcerous Origin which is included in the number of Cantrips Known column of the Sorcerer Table.

Emphasis mine. I think this is a bit confusing, especially given that the Spells Known column reads as X+Y. Maybe have the cantrip column on the table read 3+1, 4+1, and eventually 5+1?

Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

Emphasis mine, this is arcane due to the addition of spell points. Replace with, "Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which must also be of a level no greater than your max spell level."

which do not count against the number of Sorcerer spells you know and are included in the Spells Known column of the Sorcerer Table.

Emphasis mine. The problem with this language is that you clearly do count them, on the table, where you have the +Y number of spells known. Moreover, it contradicts your passage from before about Cantrips known. Not a huge issue, but it is a contradiction. The easiest fix would actually be to keep the bolded language, cut the non-bolded bit, and strike both the +Y and the bonus cantrip from the table.

Divine Shield

You should either name this "Unarmored Defense" or specifically note that the two don't stack.

At 3rd level, you gain resistance to poison damage and you have advantage on saving throws against poison. In addition, whenever you start casting a spell of 1st level or higher that deals fire or radiant damage, heavily rain falls from the sky around you.

Emphasis mine. I assume you mean "heavenly?" Given the ability's text and naming, "fiery" might be a better word choice.

Blinding / Healing Touch
Starting at 6th level, you can touch a creature. That creature must make a Constitution saving throw.If it fails, the target takes 3d8 radiant damage and is blinded for 1 minute. At the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Constitution saving throw, ending the effect on a success.
Alternative you can touch a creature. That creature magically regains hit points equal to 3d8 + your Charisma modifier. In addition you can end either one disease or one condition affecting the creature. The condition can be blinded, deafened, paralyzed, or poisoned.
Once you use this feature you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest unless you spend 6 spell points.

This doesn't list an action, and isn't consistent with how touch-type spells work elsewhere, where they require you to hit with a melee attack (see: Vampiric Touch). Your language also needs cleanup - among other things, "you can touch a creature" is not a good way of starting an ability, because yes, I knew that, thanks. Suggested replacement:

"At 6th level, you may call on your celestial heritage in either its compassionate or wrathful aspects to heal or harm with a touch. You can use this ability as an action on a creature adjacent to you to restore 3d8 + your Charisma modifier of its hit points, and cure it of either a single disease or one of the following conditions: blinded, deafened, paralyzed, or poisoned.
Alternately, invoking your celestial wrath, you can make a melee spell attack as an action that deals 3d8 radiant damage and causes the target to be blinded for 1 minute if it hits. At the end of each of its turns, the target can make a Constitution saving throw, ending the blinding effect on a success.
Once you use either of these abilities, you must spend 6 spell points to use either of them again until you complete a short or long rest."

Seraphim Wings

Obnoxious nitpick: "Seraphim" is plural, "Seraph" is singular. Also, depending on your source material, a seraph has six wings that are always folded around its body, so there's that. Maybe just go with "Angelic" for the sake of simplicity.

Holy Nimbus

I worry that the blinding affect on this one steps on Blinding Touch's toes. Blinding is appropriate here, so maybe that should be changed to another, functionally equivalent condition?

Also at 1st level, you can grow claws as a bonus action. As an action you can make an unarmed strike (for which you are proficient) which deals 1d8 slashing damage on a hit.

This feature's damage increased by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8 slashing), 11th level (2d8 slashing + 1d8 of the type associated with your draconic ancestry), and 17th level (2d8 slashing + 2d8 of the type associated with your draconic ancestry).

Language is a bit awkward, and it probably shouldn't be considered an unarmed strike in the proper sense due to the potential weirdness with monk, Extra Attack, and other things that will treat unarmed strikes as weapons, not abilities or spells. Also, no mention of being able to put away your claws, so that should be in there.

Suggested: "You can grow claws as a bonus action, allowing you to make a single melee attack (with proficiency) as an action, that deals 1d8 slashing damage on a hit. This damage increases to 2d8 slashing at 5th level, 2d8 slashing + 1d8 of your dragon ancestor's energy type at 11th level, and 2d8 slashing + 2d8 of that energy type at 17th level. You can cause your claws to disappear at any time as a free action.

Draconic Sight
Also at 3rd level, you gain darkvision out to a range of 60 feet. If you already have darkvision, it increases its range by 60 feet up to 120 feet.

Emphasis mine. Cut this bit - some races have 30-foot darkvision, and some already have 120-foot darkvision. In either case, they can figure out how to add 60.

If you are a Dragonborn, whenever you use your racial breath weapon you may choose to replace its effects with those of this ability.

Nice call.

Infernal Form

Doesn't list a duration, or an ability to turn it off. A few more particulars:

At 1st level, you can use a bonus action to unleash the infernal essence within you and assume a demonic form.

Nitpick: Should probably be "devilish," since you've gone specifically with infernal and devils up to this point. You could probably make the whole thing into Fiendish Bloodline instead, to be honest.

As an action you can make an unarmed strike with your claws (for which you are proficient) which deals 1d8 slashing damage on a hit.

This feature's damage increased by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8 slashing), 11th level (2d8 slashing + 1d8 fire), and 17th level (2d8 slashing + 2d8 fire).

Same concerns as Draconic Bloodline's claws, above, with considering this an unarmed strike.

Fix: "As an action, you can make a single melee attack (for which you are proficient) that deals 1d8 slashing damage on a hit. This damage increases to 2d8 slashing at 5th level, 2d8 slashing + 1d8 fire 11th level, and 2d8 slashing + 2d8 fire at 17th level."

Devil's Sight

See remarks about Draconic Sight, above.

Hellfire

Seems a bit strong for a short rest ability gained at 6th level. Not sure how I like it, either - granting Hellfire as an SLA to a bloodline that already gets the same ability as a bonus spell is ennnnh.

Mastery of Death
Starting at 10th level, you use your familiarity with death to escape its grasp. When you are reduced to 0 hit points, you can expend 2 spell points (no action required) to have 1 hit point instead.

With no limit on usage, that is crazy strong. Make it once per long rest, and maybe even drop the spell point cost.

Supernatural Resistance
At 14th level, you gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from nonmagical weapons.

I always feel the usefulness of this ability (in this case and in core cases alike) is questionable at the level it comes in. How many nonmagical weapons are you really going to come up against by level 14?

At 3rd level, a host of wooden thorns burst from your skin while it is transformed by the Barkskin feature.

Emphasis mine. Replace with "Brambled Skin."

Massmorph

This feels kinda lame. Maybe replace it with a proper summoning move?

Anyway, that's it for now. I'll look over Shadow, Storm and Wild when you fix the formatting issues.

[Kryx]

Hey gkathellar,

Thanks for joining in! Regarding formatting: As the site warns it's really only optimized for Chrome. The distribution will be made via PDF when it is complete, but during development it's easiest to have it on that site. So perhaps open chrome and view it that way. Sorry for the inconvenience.

As it stands the new spells are only used by the appropriate archetype. They are not added to the Sorcerer list. You're free to use them otherwise.

Fixed:

• "ar" is because the PHB has terrible OCR. There were only 2 of them. :P
• Flying: Storm and Infernal are 60 feet. Draconic has been modified to 60. Celestial is meant to be a bit quicker (90).
• Cantrips changed to 5+1
• Spell slots learning at higher levels reworded
  heavily fixed to "heavenly"

Divine Shield: I renamed it, but two different AC formulas never stack. Unarmored defense is 10+dex+wis. This is 10+dex+cha.

Blinding / Healing Touch: Your mechanics are very different than what I desire. The saving throw (and not the melee attack) is purposeful. The wording for curing a condition also purposefully matches lesser restoration to the letter, which your mechanical version has removed. Bestow Curse has the mechanical wording I desire: "You touch a creature, and that creature must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or become cursed for the duration of the spell".

Here is what I've modified it to be:

At 6th level, you can heal or harm with a touch. As an action you touch an adjacent creature and one of the following effects occurs (your choice):

• The touched creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 3d8 radiant damage and be blinded for 1 minute. At the end of each of its turns, a blinded creature can make a Constitution saving throw, ending the effect on a success.
• The touched creature regains hit points equal to 3d8 + your Charisma modifier. In addition you can end either one disease or one condition affecting the creature. The condition can be blinded, deafened, paralyzed, or poisoned.

Once you use this feature you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest unless you spend 6 spell points.

Seraphim replaced with Angelic

Holy Nimbus: You're worried about an 18th level ability that is usable for 1 minute per day making a 6th level ability that is usable 1/short rest (or at the cost of SP) unusable? I'm not seeing it.

Claws: Ya, the options here suck. If I make them just like Alter Self then they won't be used after level 5. If I make them like alter self and scale then monks will take them. If I make them like cantrips they have to be actual spells. If I make them as I have they basically ignore the normal rules on unarmed strikes. Your version is the same result as mine. Not sure what the best option is here.

Draconic Sight: This wording isn't showing players how to add. It's setting a maximum. A dragon has darkvision 120 feet. This ability shouldn't let you see more than 120 feet. Devil's sight is the same purpose.

Infernal Form: Fixed to "You can enter this form as a bonus action on your turn. It lasts until you dismiss it as a bonus action on your turn.". Also changed the "demonic form" to devilish. I considered making the whole thing fiendish, but abyssal and infernal are different. I wanted to create an abyssal bloodline as well (as PF does), but there really isn't a lot of great (powerful) source material. Most of the demons sans Balor are rather weak.

Hellfire: Spell balance is linked to compare. Quick and dirty comparison: level 4 fireball does 9d6 (31.5) damage to creatures within a 20 foot radius. A 20 foot radius is 44 squares. Likely around 3.8 creatures. Hellfire as the 6th level ability does 10d6 (35) damage to creatures within a 10 foot radius. That's 12 squares or 2.4 people. Sure, in extremely rare cases you may catch some flying creatures, but that is incredibly rare and fireball can be positioned to go off in the air and be 40x40 while Flame Strike (and Hellfire) are always 20x40.
That said I'm not 100% happy using a 5th level spell scaled down to 4th level. It works fine, but feels a bit dirty. The spell is given as well as the scaling of the 6th level ability doesn't happen until 11. Something should adjust here a bit, but not sure how to manage it.
EDIT: I've moved hellfire (and flame strike) to 4th level which gives it much better balance. That solves this issue.

Mastery of Death: Open SCAG to page 131. Monks can do it 11 times per short rest. I think removing the cost and allowing it a number of times equal to charisma is the best option. I'll make that change.

Supernatural Resistance: That would be my concern as well, but if you look at the MM very few creatures have magical weapons.

Brambled Skin: Replaced with "this feature"

Massmorph: This is more of a utility feature. If it were to be a summoning feature it would have to move to 6 or 18 and be adjusted accordingly. This feature primarily would be used for espionage via trees or shrubs.

[Kryx]

Made the claws do 1d4, upgrade to 1d8 at 6, and at 11 they are considered magical and do an additional 1d8 damage.

Should be ok. Still very ribbony and not meant to be anything more than flavor and incredibly minor utility.

[Kryx]

Refactored claws again:

At 1st level, you can grow claws as a bonus action. As an action while clawed, you can make a melee weapon attack with proficiency. On a hit your claws deal 1d8 slashing damage. They last until you dismiss them as a bonus action on your turn.

This feature's damage increased by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (2d8 + 1d8 of the type associated with your draconic ancestry), and 17th level (2d8 + 2d8 of the type associated with your draconic ancestry).

[JNAProductions]

Refactored claws again:

Is that Sorcerer level, or character level?

[Kryx]

As claws are now character level would be fine.

[JNAProductions]

As claws are now character level would be fine.

No... No they aren't.

Sorcerer 1/Fighter 11 deals 3d8 damage with each attack, and has three of them.

[Kryx]

Read the wording above. They are an action to use, just like a cantrip. They cannot be used as part of extra attack.

[Kryx]

Infernal form claws just set to 1d6:

While in this form you have advantage on saving throws against poison, and you have resistance against fire and poison damage. Also while in this form your unarmed strikes deal 1d6 slashing damage, and you are proficient with your unarmed strikes.
At 6th level your claws are considered magical.

I think that's a better option than trying to make claws work in some cases but not others.


On 6th level features:
I'm changing the wording and auto scaling. For example:

At 6th level, you can command a stroke of lightning to strike down as the thunderbolt spell.

Once per short or long rest you can ignore 6 spell points from the spell point cost. You can use this spell at a higher level starting at level 9.

The wording could probably use some improvement if anyone has suggestions.


Overall changelog:

• Claws as above
• Removed claws from Draconic and restored draconic resilience to RAW (hp is included)
• 6th level wording as above
• Thunderbolt is now a spell and does 3d8 electricity and 4d8 thunder instead of 5d10. It is also on the draconic spell list at 7th level for lightning dragon types.
• Dragon's Breath is now a spell and does 6d6 and adds 1d6 per higher level. It was a spell in PF so this seems natural.
• 6th level abilities added to spell balance to show their power level.
• Specified which spells are added to which class lists

[Master Elodin]

Hi, just wanted to say I love the work you've put in here, and I'll definitely be using this version in my games. If I see anything odd or unbalanced I'll be sure to let you know, but it's shaping up nicely imo.

[Kryx]

Thanks Elodin.

Let me know if you encounter anything. I'm pretty happy with how it stands currently.

[gkathellar]

My new work computer has Chrome, so I took a second look at the remaining origins.

Storm and Wild look great, all thumbs up there.

Shadow is solid, although I have a few nitpicks about Shadow Lord. The use of the word "Grappled" suggests the normal grapple rules, so you may want to involve those, and make the Str/Dex check into a Str (Athletics)/Dex (Acrobatics) check, as per grapple. In addition, you may want to explicitly count the area as darkness.

[Kryx]

I added Acrobatics and Athletics to grappled as suggested. All similar spells use Restrained, but that is too strong of a condition in addition to the rest of the feature.

The area is purposefully not darkness (see Oathbreaker for the source idea). If it were darkness it would inhibit your allies and defeat the whole purpose of using it for protection.