Sorcerer Rework

[Zman]

Hi,
I created Kryx's Sorcerer with the following changes:[*]Spell points used instead of spell slots to allow for much greater flexibility

Out of all of it, this I like the least. Spell Points are fine as a variant system in their own right, but it feels too flexible. Sorcerer already had limited flexibility with Sorcery Points, and if they weren't required to be used for Metamagic, they could have been the flexibility that was needed. Personally I'd rather just see sorcery Points increased with your Metamagic removal. Plus, potential high level spell slot abide. How would this work with Multiclassing?

[*]Spell list expanded to now include the Wizard's spell list

Solid improvement in that goes a long way to shoring up the Sorcerer.

[*]Spells known expanded to 15+10 from a set list which is still far less than the prepared amount of other 9th level casters: Druid's 25+8, Cleric's 25+10, and Wizard's 44+ spells known and can prepare 25+2

Great, I find your implementation of the bloodlines and their corresponding spell list great.

[*]Metamagic extracted from the class.. I'd prefer the the class to not be solely defined by metamagic. Metamagic options are now available as feats. See Balanced Metamagic Options as Feats if you'd like to see/discuss how that works.

Not a huge fan of splitting them off and I haven't gotten a chance to look through it yet. In principle it is fine as you have added quite a bit to help define the class already, just not to my taste.

[*]Short rest minor spell recovery via Sorcerous Restoration which now gives a few points back on a short rest, but still pales in comparison to Wizard or Land Druid recovery.[*]6th level abilities make up for the lack of short rest recovery. They are effectively 1 specific extra 4th level spell per short rest.

Solid, the flexibility of some recovery is good.

[*]Archetypes (Bloodlines) expanded from 4 abilities to 7 (capstone replaced so it's really just 6). The abilities are generally stronger and provide the vast majority of the flavor for the class.

I didn't get a chance to read throu all of the bloodlines due to it being painful on my tablet, but I liked what I saw.
A few notes,
Conviction felt a bit strong, reroll five saves a day dwarfs a Fighter's Indomitable and has other uses.
I'd just add AC=10+Dex+Cha as default to the Sorcerer Chassis.
Magic Resistance for Infernal is awefully powerful and equivalent to a powerful magical item.
The Nimbus and Shadow Aura feel a bit strong, but that is probably just a gut overreaction.
Shadowwalk is often going to be a 120' teleport every round at night, in dungeons, etc. make it Cha Mod per day or at least Short Rest.


I love the bloodlines, though have some minor gripe with some of the features and think you should just give them Cha unarmored defense stock on the chassis. I understand why you ripped out Metamagic and think you've given them enough flavor to compensate. I'm not a fan of defaulting to spell points and feel Sorcery Points would have filled the niche with Metamagic removed. Opening up the Socerer list to the Wizard list is nice, as are the flavor bonus spells, they really define the subclass. From a balance perspective I think it is solid with exception to the above noted, and I'm not set on them being unbalanced without some math and thought.

[Kryx]

Hey Zman, thanks for taking a look.

I'm glad to see that you like a majority of the core idea.

Metamagic: I reworded the reasoning here.

Archetypes are more defined. Archetypes have been expanded from 4 abilities to 7 (capstone replaced so it's really just 6). The abilities are generally stronger and provide the vast majority of the flavor for the class. (see the last page for balance of these)

• Metamagic extracted from the class in order to allow for more defined archetypes. It also makes it easier to present the metamagic options to all casting classes if they are not tied to one specific class. Metamagic options are now available as feats. See Balanced Metamagic Options as Feats if you'd like to see how that works.

Allowing it on all classes was one of my primary motivations. Making Sorcerer archetypes more defined was another. Metamagic and more powerful archetypes can't co-exist balance wise so it was removed.

Spell Points: Regarding high level slot "abide" (I think you meant abuse): It's limited to the same number as the spell slots system.

Multiclassing with classes that don't use spell points is a bit more tricky. In my own game I'd allow them to continue progressing with spell points if their main class is Sorcerer. For actual written text I'm not sure there is a simple way to handle it.

Spell points overall are likely a personal choice. Perhaps not needed with my other changes. The idea was to allow for more flexibility as the class was slightly weaker, but I'm not sure that's true anymore. I did some reading (Spell points in play) and I'm inclined to agree with the cautions in that thread. It sounds great, but can be potentially unbalancing and since I'm already at level 10 (11 soon) it seems like a bad option. Plus I'd like to save points for Psionics. I'm going to remove spell points.

Metamagic removal is accounted for in the expanded archetypes so the sorcerer shouldn't get more points for that.

Conviction: Conviction is rather different from Indomitable. Indomitable, like Draconic's Legendary Resistance, allows you to reroll a failed saving throw. Conviction allows you to reroll an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw before knowing the result. Indomitable can be used up to 3 times per day. Draconic's Legendary Resistance can be used up to 3 times per day (reset on a short rest). Conviction can be used up to 5 times a day.
It functions similarly to lucky and Bardic Inspiration, but instead of granting a d6, d8, d10, or d12 it allows a reroll.
Bardic Inspiration can be used up to Charisma times per long rest. Perhaps Conviction should be once per short rest? Seems weaker than Legendary Resistance, but I guess it applies on multiple rolls. Thoughts?

AC = 10+dex+cha: Out of all the archetypes (8) only Celestial, Draconic, Shadow, and Verdant have some kind of armor boost with 3 different options. Sorcerer is not a Monk and providing it with a better option than monk isn't the best choice imo. Charisma is the Sorcerer's main ability score while it's the Monk's secondary.

Magic Resistance: So this is given as all devils have magic resistance - that's the reasoning. It's similar to Gnome Cunning (which is the same benefit starting at 1st level, but only applies on Int/Wis/Cha). Here is the rationale for balance:
This only works on spells. Based on my list of saving throws that's 18 strength saves, 58 dex saves, and 43 con saves. Conviction and Indomitable work on all saving throws which is a longer list for str/dex/con and about equivalent for int/wis.

Enemy spell casters are won't be encountered as much as you'd expect. 9/20 from Curse of Strahd, 8/15 from Hoard of the Dragon Queen, 2/5 from Lost Mine of Phandelver, 94/454 from Monster Manual, 18/35 from Out of the Abyss, 26/42 from Princes of the Apocalypse, 1/7 from The Rise of Tiamat. Total of 158/578 = ~27% of enemy monsters can cast spells.

I'd be more wary of the idea if Gnome didn't exist, but the existence of gnome tells me that the designers didn't think having advantage against spells is too powerful. This is a step above, but is given at 10 and doesn't apply to many situations like Conviction/Indomitable/Legendary Resistance. Thoughts?

Nimbus: This is directly from Oath of Devotion besides the damage changes from 10 to 2d8 + charisma (averages ~14) and the blinded condition being added. The reason I added blinded to this (and grappled to Shadow) is because Sorcerer is a full caster while a Paladin is a half caster. I would expect their top ability to be a bit more powerful as a result.
Shadow Lord: Same as above. It's the same as the Oathbreaker, but with the grappled part.
Overall I think these two abilities are internally balance against the other 18th level abilities. Are there any that you think are weak?

Shadow Walk: Shadow Step (60 ft) is given to the Shadow Monk at level 6 with no restrictions and gives advantage to the first attack. This is given at level 14 (120 ft) without the advantage. So it is given much later, without a nice benefit (less nice for Sorcerer which is why it was removed), and can move twice as far. Seems ok to be based on Shadow Step.

Thanks again for taking a look. I underlined some parts above where I'd appreciate some feedback, though feel free to reply to the other parts as well as I may have missed something.

[Kryx]

• Removed spell points - back to spell slots and sorcery points as RAW.
• Moved Sorcerous Restoration back to 5th level instead of 9th. Adding some scaling to go from 2,3,4,5,6
• Undead Mastery of death updated back to 1 sorcery point (Same as monk)
• Conviction changed to 1/short rest from charisma mod uses

Rewrote the 6th level features cost:

Starting at 6th level, you can raise undead thralls as the animate dead spell without expending any spell slots.

Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest unless you expend a 4th level or higher spell slot.

[Zman]

Hey Zman, thanks for taking a look.

I'm glad to see that you like a majority of the core idea.

No problem, I was happy too.

I do like quite a bit of it, and Spell Points was my biggest point of disagreement.

Metamagic: I reworded the reasoning here.

Allowing it on all classes was one of my primary motivations. Making Sorcerer archetypes more defined was another. Metamagic and more powerful archetypes can't co-exist balance wise so it was removed.

Given your other changes and goal it is appropriate and balanced. I agree with this change in the scope of this class rewrite.

Spell Points: Regarding high level slot "abide" (I think you meant abuse): It's limited to the same number as the spell slots system.

Multiclassing with classes that don't use spell points is a bit more tricky. In my own game I'd allow them to continue progressing with spell points if their main class is Sorcerer. For actual written text I'm not sure there is a simple way to handle it.

Spell points overall are likely a personal choice. Perhaps not needed with my other changes. The idea was to allow for more flexibility as the class was slightly weaker, but I'm not sure that's true anymore. I did some reading (Spell points in play) and I'm inclined to agree with the cautions in that thread. It sounds great, but can be potentially unbalancing and since I'm already at level 10 (11 soon) it seems like a bad option. Plus I'd like to save points for Psionics. I'm going to remove spell points.

I agree with what you said here. Sorry about any typos, much of my early morning and evening responses are done from a tablet and I'm notoriously bad at typing on them as my brain is moving far faster than my fingers.

They definitely are more of a personal choice and including them is likely to turn some people away from the class as it is such a fundamental change in approach to spellcasting, requires more book keeping, and is an abrupt change right out of the gate. With your other changes it don't think the class is weaker anymore. I think this is a good change that will benefit your overall project.

Metamagic removal is accounted for in the expanded archetypes so the sorcerer shouldn't get more points for that.

Are you keeping the remaining Sorcery Points for flexible spellcasting and the ability to create slots? Or are you nixing Sorcery Points for the Sorcerer. If left, Sorcerer has a niche by being the best at Metamagic even though it is available to all casters. Nevermind, I see you already changed it, quick work!

Conviction: Conviction is rather different from Indomitable. Indomitable, like Draconic's Legendary Resistance, allows you to reroll a failed saving throw. Conviction allows you to reroll an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw before knowing the result. Indomitable can be used up to 3 times per day. Draconic's Legendary Resistance can be used up to 3 times per day (reset on a short rest). Conviction can be used up to 5 times a day.
It functions similarly to lucky and Bardic Inspiration, but instead of granting a d6, d8, d10, or d12 it allows a reroll.
Bardic Inspiration can be used up to Charisma times per long rest. Perhaps Conviction should be once per short rest? Seems weaker than Legendary Resistance, but I guess it applies on multiple rolls. Thoughts?

But, in practice there is a much narrower difference between Indomitable than Conviction. For many of the results and rolls you will have a strong indication or will outright know if you failed the save. Rolled a 4, well you know you failed that save, reroll it. It also benefits from being usable on multiple types of rolls. I think the once per short or long rest is fine and it is essentially balanced with Legendary Resistance.

AC = 10+dex+cha: Out of all the archetypes (8) only Celestial, Draconic, Shadow, and Verdant have some kind of armor boost with 3 different options. Sorcerer is not a Monk and providing it with a better option than monk isn't the best choice imo. Charisma is the Sorcerer's main ability score while it's the Monk's secondary.

I didn't get to Undead, Verdant, or Wild on my tablet. I don't see it as a better option than a monk, not at all. Yes, Charisma is the main attribute for Sorcerer and Wisdom is the Secondary Attribute for a Monk, but the main attribute for a Monk is Dex and that does affect AC. So, in effect, both Monk and Sorcerer can pump their primary Attribute for more AC, and the Monk pumps its Wisdom as its Secondary where the Sorcerer pumps either Dex for more AC or Con for better concentration saves and HP. I think at the least these are comparable features and does not naturally favor the Sorcerer. At game start with AC13+Dex it is equivalent until Cha is pumped at 4th and 8th, and even then you are looking at AC 17 or 18 unless additional Dex is pumped for the Sorcerer.

Magic Resistance: So this is given as all devils have magic resistance - that's the reasoning. It's similar to Gnome Cunning (which is the same benefit starting at 1st level, but only applies on Int/Wis/Cha). Here is the rationale for balance:
This only works on spells. Based on my list of saving throws that's 18 strength saves, 58 dex saves, and 43 con saves. Conviction and Indomitable work on all saving throws which is a longer list for str/dex/con and about equivalent for int/wis.

Enemy spell casters are won't be encountered as much as you'd expect. 9/20 from Curse of Strahd, 8/15 from Hoard of the Dragon Queen, 2/5 from Lost Mine of Phandelver, 94/454 from Monster Manual, 18/35 from Out of the Abyss, 26/42 from Princes of the Apocalypse, 1/7 from The Rise of Tiamat. Total of 158/578 = ~27% of enemy monsters can cast spells.

I'd be more wary of the idea if Gnome didn't exist, but the existence of gnome tells me that the designers didn't think having advantage against spells is too powerful. This is a step above, but is given at 10 and doesn't apply to many situations like Conviction/Indomitable/Legendary Resistance. Thoughts?

Gahh, I forgot about Gnome's Cunning.... that makes me think it is more reasonable, but I still feel it is a bit strong. Your argument is compelling though, and I don't think it is too imbalanced as is.

Nimbus: This is directly from Oath of Devotion besides the damage changes from 10 to 2d8 + charisma (averages ~14) and the blinded condition being added. The reason I added blinded to this (and grappled to Shadow) is because Sorcerer is a full caster while a Paladin is a half caster. I would expect their top ability to be a bit more powerful as a result.
Shadow Lord: Same as above. It's the same as the Oathbreaker, but with the grappled part.
Overall I think these two abilities are internally balance against the other 18th level abilities. Are there any that you think are weak?

I don't have a problem with the damage, but the rider effects are awfully good. Shadow Lord.... you have a massive 60' radius, and always on Dex or be Grappled and lose have Move 0, you have an auto grapple target on each of your turns, and they have to spend their actions freeing themselves. Using your bonus action you auto shut down any single target of your choice, no save, nothing. Use bonus action to Grapple, creature must use its action to escape, if it does all it can do is move. Rinse, wash, repeat unless the creature leaves the aura, and you'll just follow on your turn. This thing is a once per day nuke that is often going to outshine even some 9th level spells in play.

Yes, the Paladin is only a half caster and the Sorcerer is a full caster, but that doesn't mean the Capstone should be orders of magnitude better and come two levels earlier to boot. I strongly feel that this is too strong. It is essentially a massive area control spell, area damage spell, and targeted lockdown for suck save for suck less. And it doesn't require concentration. What I would suggest is remove the Dex Save or Grapple and make it damage only, keep the draped in shadows, and make the active bonus action be a Dex save or be grappled, if they succeed you can't attempt to do it to them again. That seems far more appropriate to me.

Nimbus is fine if you make it a once they succeed they are immune for the duration. Save or get Adv/DisAdv hit every turn is pretty nasty. If all they have to do is save once it is still great, just not on the same level.

Shadow Walk: Shadow Step (60 ft) is given to the Shadow Monk at level 6 with no restrictions and gives advantage to the first attack. This is given at level 14 (120 ft) without the advantage. So it is given much later, without a nice benefit (less nice for Sorcerer which is why it was removed), and can move twice as far. Seems ok to be based on Shadow Step.

Sure, and if the Sorcerer was a monk Shadow Walk is balanced with Shadow Step, but a Sorcerer is a different animal than a Monk. Shadowstep is balanced on a Monk because the Monk is a skirmisher and needs to get close to deal damage or lock down a character, this makes Shadow Step movement for skirmishing or attacking and is balanced as such. But, for a Sorcerer you have a class that outside of a few niche builds does not want to be in melee and has a free unlimited use get of jail free card in many environments. The sorcerer becomes impossible to lock down with no resource expenditure, every turn it can simple get away from any melee enemy outside of their movement range and keep attacking. So long as you are in two of the most common fight scenarios, underground, indoors, or at night you kite everything. I don't see that as an enjoyable or balanced mechanic. I'd make it a once per short/long rest ability or Cha mod times per day.

Thanks again for taking a look. I underlined some parts above where I'd appreciate some feedback, though feel free to reply to the other parts as well as I may have missed something.

No problem, I didn't get a chance to dig through all the subclass abilities, but made sure to take the time to respond to all of this.

[gkathellar]

The area is purposefully not darkness (see Oathbreaker for the source idea). If it were darkness it would inhibit your allies and defeat the whole purpose of using it for protection.

Fair enough. Anyway, everything looks good. I give it my Seal of Approval (which is totally a thing, for reals).

[Kryx]

I didn't get to Undead, Verdant, or Wild on my tablet. I don't see it as a better option than a monk, not at all. Yes, Charisma is the main attribute for Sorcerer and Wisdom is the Secondary Attribute for a Monk, but the main attribute for a Monk is Dex and that does affect AC. So, in effect, both Monk and Sorcerer can pump their primary Attribute for more AC, and the Monk pumps its Wisdom as its Secondary where the Sorcerer pumps either Dex for more AC or Con for better concentration saves and HP. I think at the least these are comparable features and does not naturally favor the Sorcerer. At game start with AC13+Dex it is equivalent until Cha is pumped at 4th and 8th, and even then you are looking at AC 17 or 18 unless additional Dex is pumped for the Sorcerer.

I see your point and you're right about monk vs sorcerer AC, but as mentioned AC is only on 4/8 of the archetypes and in a few different flavorful forms. I don't want to make it part of the core class as it doesn't make so much sense on every archetype.

Gahh, I forgot about Gnome's Cunning.... that makes me think it is more reasonable, but I still feel it is a bit strong. Your argument is compelling though, and I don't think it is too imbalanced as is.

Overall I think it looks strong, but in actual play it'll be slightly more powerful than Gnome Cunning. In encounters with casters it will be very very strong. In encounters without casters it'll be worthless.

I don't have a problem with the damage, but the rider effects are awfully good. Shadow Lord.... you have a massive 60' radius, and always on Dex or be Grappled and lose have Move 0, you have an auto grapple target on each of your turns, and they have to spend their actions freeing themselves. Using your bonus action you auto shut down any single target of your choice, no save, nothing. Use bonus action to Grapple, creature must use its action to escape, if it does all it can do is move. Rinse, wash, repeat unless the creature leaves the aura, and you'll just follow on your turn. This thing is a once per day nuke that is often going to outshine even some 9th level spells in play.

Yes, the Paladin is only a half caster and the Sorcerer is a full caster, but that doesn't mean the Capstone should be orders of magnitude better and come two levels earlier to boot. I strongly feel that this is too strong. It is essentially a massive area control spell, area damage spell, and targeted lockdown for suck save for suck less. And it doesn't require concentration. What I would suggest is remove the Dex Save or Grapple and make it damage only, keep the draped in shadows, and make the active bonus action be a Dex save or be grappled, if they succeed you can't attempt to do it to them again. That seems far more appropriate to me.

Nimbus is fine if you make it a once they succeed they are immune for the duration. Save or get Adv/DisAdv hit every turn is pretty nasty. If all they have to do is save once it is still great, just not on the same level.

I don't quite agree with your claim here. Let's look at my updated comparison:

• Celestial Continual AoE Light for light damage + blinded for 1 round. Somewhat similar to Holy aura. AoE CC lasts 1 round.
• Dragon Similar to an 8th level spell with concentration (Antipathy), but it lasts for 1 minute instead of 10 days. Similar to Fear (3rd) and Eyebite (6th). AoE 60 frighten
• Infernal Equivalent to a 7th level spell (Fire Storm) AoE damage
• Shadow 60 ft AoE darker + grappled + small damage + enemies have dis on attacks + bonus action attack.
• Storm Hurricane (AoE 30 hard CC and damage at end)
• Undead Equivalent to a 6th/7th level spell (circle/finger of death) upgraded to 7th.
• Verdant Equivalent to a 6th level spell (Wall of Thorns) upgraded to 7th. Enemy is cut off, or trapped, or can take a lot of damage to get through
• Wild Magic Equivalent to 2 4th level spells Dimension Door & Evard's Black Tentacles as a 6th level spell

Nimbus: In that comparison I'm not seeing how celestial (Nimbus) stands out at all. The creature can still attack at disadvantage while Frightened forces them to move. Additionally the effect only lasts 1 round instead of 1 minute if they fail. AoE Save or suck for 1 round in this aura is perfectly balanced as a 7th level spell.

Shadow Lord: Grappled is one of the lightest CC options possible. The creature can still cast spells, make ranged attacks, or do any other action besides move. That is problematic, but not the end of the world for many creatures. This is a worse CC option of evard's black tentacles. The aura is 60 feet to be comparable to Frightful Presence.
If I were to add concentration then it should be stronger and give full restrained.

If we compare this to mass suggestion (a 6th level spell) for example then that is much harder CC.

Sure, and if the Sorcerer was a monk Shadow Walk is balanced with Shadow Step, but a Sorcerer is a different animal than a Monk. Shadowstep is balanced on a Monk because the Monk is a skirmisher and needs to get close to deal damage or lock down a character, this makes Shadow Step movement for skirmishing or attacking and is balanced as such. But, for a Sorcerer you have a class that outside of a few niche builds does not want to be in melee and has a free unlimited use get of jail free card in many environments. The sorcerer becomes impossible to lock down with no resource expenditure, every turn it can simple get away from any melee enemy outside of their movement range and keep attacking. So long as you are in two of the most common fight scenarios, underground, indoors, or at night you kite everything. I don't see that as an enjoyable or balanced mechanic. I'd make it a once per short/long rest ability or Cha mod times per day.

You do have a point that Monk doesn't have melee options and the Sorcerer would use this to escape. I'll adjust it to Charisma times per long rest.

[Kryx]

Storm Sorcerer switched Hurricane to Tsunami.

[Cognomore]

Thank you Kryx! This is awesome.

What do you think about "multi-classing" with different origins? Part of me thinks that it doesn't make sense b/c it is an origin ... and one can only come from one place. OTOH, I can see building a story where a character was born with dragon blood, but for some reason a devil takes interest in him/her and somehow shares it's powers with the character ... almost like MCing to a Warlock.

Do you think this could work?

I found a thread at stackexchange which suggested it wouldn't and a thread here that suggested it could, but might not be optimal (can't link to them b/c I have fewer than 10 posts).

If it were to work, how would you handle level advancement? Perhaps those features common to all sorcerers could continue to advance as they had been, but those associated with the new origin would restart?

[Kryx]

Hi Cognomore,

Sorry for the late reply - I've been on vacation.

Regarding taking multiple archetypes: I'm afraid I'm going to take the same stance as Crawford: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/23/...to-same-class/

I don't think it'd be easy from a balance perspective and questionable from a fluff perspective. Though you're free to use this however you'd like. :)

[Cognomore]

Gotcha. Makes sense. I'll need to figure out another way to try a couple of the archetypes you've created ... maybe twins who were each "empowered" in different ways? :)

Thanks!

[Master Elodin]

Hey Krix, I'll probably be starting a new game this autumn, and I'm putting your Sorc as the replacement for the Vanilla one so hopefully one of my players will try it out, so thanks for that!

One thing I wanted clarification on was your Metamagic Feat. When you take it for the second time, do you also get an additional 5 Metamagic Points? So, if you took it three times you'd have 15? Seems quite powerful that way, but equally a little underwhelming if you're stuck with 5 for the whole playthrough. Maybe there's a happy medium to be had here?

Anyway, thanks again for all the work you've put into this, you're one hell of a 'brewer!

- Elodin

[Kryx]

I've added a Fey Bloodline. Pretty happy with it overall. Let me know if you have any thoughts.

Master Elodin, I'm glad to hear you like the project that I created. :)
Regarding the metamagic feats I'd prefer to keep that topic separate. See Balanced Metamagic (as feats). At post #18 I discuss the valuation:

The feat now gives 5 points. It would take 4/5 of a character's feats to get as many points as a Sorcerer had, so it should be ok. This valuation allows for a fair amount of uses (outlined below).

So for valuation:

• For 1 feat a Sorcerer could either have +1 DC and +1 to attack and several other effects from higher Charisma or it can heighten 1 spell to have the target have a 30.3% chance to succeed instead of a 55% chance to succeed. They would have 2 points left over for lesser options like subtle, careful, or empowered.
• For 1 feat a Wizard could either have +1 DC and +1 to attack and several other effects from higher Intelligence or it can enlarge 1 spell, and empower 3 others.

Empower would result in ~10% more damage. Enlarge maybe an additional creature so 5 instead of 4, so 25% more damage. Seems like a fair cost for a feat.

Feel free to reply there if you think this valuation is problematic.

[Cognomore]

Hi Kryx. Another Q for you.

When a 6th lvl Draconic bloodline sorcerer uses his Dragon's Breath ability, you mention that it doesn't require the use of a spell slot. Does the ability require a 50gp dragon scale as a material component?

I'm thinking no, but wanted to ask.

Thanks

[Kryx]

It's in the next line: "You can use the type based on your draconic ancestry without providing a material component." :)

Btw moved spells to a different sheet. http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJUmV-6I

[Cognomore]

Doh! Reading too fast. Sorry. :)

The link in the Spell Damage Modified section goes to your class based DPR spreadsheet. In there I found a link to Wiz vs. Sorc spreadsheet (that I can't link to yet).

Is there another spreadsheet that covers all your modified damage spells?


Do you think it would be very unbalanced if I used your reworked Sorc but didn't allow access to all Wiz spells? I kind of like the idea that the years of study a Wiz puts into magic yields mastery of more spells.

Thanks!

[Kryx]

I have Spells for the spells, but that does not include the ones with their damage modified. Spell Balance is best for that.

Regarding spell list: You're free to do what you'd like. In my opinion and the opinion of others the lack of spells on the Sorcerer list vs the Wizard list is a rather large problem. The Sorcerer is already limited by the number of spells known while a Wizard can change any of his 44+ spells known on a daily basis to better prepare for scenarios. Sorcerer has 164 spells, a Wizard has 257. That's rather ridiculous imo.

Here are some examples from spells A-C:

• Absorb Elements
• Alarm
• Animate Dead
• Antimagic Field
• Antipathy/Sympathy
• Arcane Eye
• Arcane Lock
• Astral Projection
• Beast Bond
• Bestow Curse
• Bigby's Hand
• Clone
• Conjure Elemental
• Conjure Minor Elementals
• Contact Other Plane
• Contingency
• Continual Flame
• Control Water
• Control Weather
• Create Undead

Control Winds is on the Sorcerer list, but not control weather? Sorcerers, who can specialize in elements, can't summon elementals or absorb them? Sorcerers, who are more of a nature class than a Wizard, can't bond with beasts? There are many more on that list as well. The Sorcerer will likely not learn spells like Continual flame and some other options, but their list is far too restricted as it stands.

The Wizard already masters more spells via their class feature of spell mastery as well as being able to learn far far more. The spell list doesn't need to be restricted as well.

[Cognomore]

Wow. Spell Balance is amazing. You've quantified so many of the qualitative factors that go into the efficacy of spells.

I was at first surprised by the relative strength of some of the spells (e.g., Witch Bolt vs. Burning Hands), but after digging into the formulas it makes sense. How did you come up with the values in Spell Settings (in particular those related to AoE spells and Conditions)?

Thanks for sharing more about your reasoning for allowing Sorcs to learn Wiz spells. It makes a lot of sense.

[Kryx]

Spell Balance has been a process. You can see an older version in a tab as well - it was more rudimentary.

I think the spreadsheet does a great job for the most part, but it can't account for some things. For example Witch Bolt would be a pretty good option if cantrips didn't exist, but they do so it's a terrible spell once you hit level 11. Even potentially before that unless you're really trying to conserve resources. That's why I added the grapple bit - to make it actually somewhat useful.

Spell Settings is full of lots of values so I'll try to give a general response: For AoE for example I looked at fireball which is a 20 foot radius AoE and I then fiddled with some exponential multipliers until I got a number close to what I would expect as a result. The result in this case expects about 3.8 enemies on average in a Fireball which seems pretty accurate overall. I setup a fireball and then laid out typical scenarios and that number rang true. I did the same for lines and those can be targeted to not hit allies much easier - hence the higher multiplier. I did similar scenarios with Lightning Bolt to see how many would be hit commonly. Point blank AoEs will typically hit less than AoEs due to range and targeting. Cones are a bit like lines, but can hit allies easier and typically aren't as long. Walls are like ranged lines so they're the best.

Failure rates are pure math based on MM math. Same with hits.

Action, Duration, Repeat was all experimentation. The result is options that don't move like cloud of daggers will typically hit 1.5 types (or 1.35 times if concentration impacts it). Seems fairly accurate as creatures will typically avoid those kind of zones. For repeat actions it uses the same math as being stationary and then adds on more value for being able to be used again. See Melf's Minute Meteors or Flaming Sphere for examples.

For Conditions I made them pure multipliers. Effectively this just piggy-backs on the current math without me having to recalculate the number of people hit and the save chance, etc. This again was an experimentation process, but I barely adjusted the multiplier values at all to get the current result.


It's not perfect, but it's pretty accurate in most cases imo.

[Grey Watcher]

I haven't had a chance to finish the document, but one little typo jumped out at me that no one else seems to have pointed out:

Starting at 1st level, you can use a bonus action on your turn to turn invisible, immediately after you cast a spell of 1st level or higher. The invisibility lasts until the end of your turn or until you attack or cast a spell.

You can use this feature before you cast a spell of 1st level or higher a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier (a minimum of once). You regain any expended uses when you finish a long rest.

Emphasis mine

Just a little confusing because, as worded, it's unclear if the caster gets to go invisible just before they cast the spell, just after, or if it's their choice upon casting.

[Kryx]

Just a little confusing because, as worded, it's unclear if the caster gets to go invisible just before they cast the spell, just after, or if it's their choice upon casting.

I cleaned up the wording:

Starting at 1st level, you can use a bonus action on your turn to turn invisible, immediately after you cast a spell of 1st level or higher. The invisibility lasts until the end of your turn or until you attack or cast a spell.

You can also use this feature immediately before you cast a spell of 1st level or higher, but once you use this feature before the spell is cast, you can't use it before the spell is cast again until you finish a short or long rest.

[Strill]

Spell list expanded to now include the Wizard's spell list as the normal list was rather lacking in many key spells.

I don't agree, because this contradicts lore. A Sorcerer's magic is inherent, and is mastered through force of will, not intricate construction. It makes no sense that they would be able to cast highly contrived spells like Magic Circle, which is useless on its own, or Glyph of Warding, which relies on inscribing an intricate symbol. When you give them these spells, you damage class identity.

[Kryx]

I don't agree, because this contradicts lore. A Sorcerer's magic is inherent, and it makes no sense that they would be able to cast highly contrived spells like Magic Circle, which is useless on its own, or Glyph of Warding, which relies on inscribing an intricate symbol. When you give them these spells, you damage class identity.

The class identity is exactly the same now as it was in 3.X: a variant Wizard. In 3.X Sorcerers and Wizards shared the same spell list.


But if we ignore the old and look at it from a fresh please see the post above:

I have Spells for the spells, but that does not include the ones with their damage modified. Spell Balance is best for that.

Regarding spell list: You're free to do what you'd like. In my opinion and the opinion of others the lack of spells on the Sorcerer list vs the Wizard list is a rather large problem. The Sorcerer is already limited by the number of spells known while a Wizard can change any of his 44+ spells known on a daily basis to better prepare for scenarios. Sorcerer has 164 spells, a Wizard has 257. That's rather ridiculous imo.

Here are some examples from spells A-C:

• Absorb Elements
• Alarm
• Animate Dead
• Antimagic Field
• Antipathy/Sympathy
• Arcane Eye
• Arcane Lock
• Astral Projection
• Beast Bond
• Bestow Curse
• Bigby's Hand
• Clone
• Conjure Elemental
• Conjure Minor Elementals
• Contact Other Plane
• Contingency
• Continual Flame
• Control Water
• Control Weather
• Create Undead

Control Winds is on the Sorcerer list, but not control weather? Sorcerers, who can specialize in elements, can't summon elementals or absorb them? Sorcerers, who are more of a nature class than a Wizard, can't bond with beasts? There are many more on that list as well. The Sorcerer will likely not learn spells like Continual flame and some other options, but their list is far too restricted as it stands.

The Wizard already masters more spells via their class feature of spell mastery as well as being able to learn far far more. The spell list doesn't need to be restricted as well.

[Strill]

I don't see any contradictions. The spells you mention are consistent with what I said. A Sorcerer's magic is powered by force of will, not complex study. That's why Sorcerer spells have simple effects, and none of the nuanced, intricate, or multi-stage spells that Wizards have like Contingency or Glyph of Warding.

Pushing water around is much simpler than changing complex weather patterns.

Making an explosion with Fireball is much simpler than conjuring an elemental from another plane and binding it to your will.

Sorcerers have no particular affinity with nature, so I don't see why Beast Bond is relevant.

I agree Sorcerers need a buff but I think that giving them the same spell list as the Wizard not only makes no sense from a fluff perspective, but is defeating the point of having them as a separate class in the first place, since at that point there's nothing to make them unique.

The class identity is exactly the same now as it was in 3.X: a variant Wizard. In 3.X Sorcerers and Wizards shared the same spell list.

Mechanically sorcerers were a variant wizard, but this contradicted the fluff and premise of the sorcerer, which is why it was changed in 5e.

[Kryx]

I don't see any contradictions. The spells you mention are consistent with what I said. A Sorcerer's magic is powered by force of will, not complex study. That's why Sorcerer spells have simple effects, and none of the nuanced, intricate, or multi-stage spells that Wizards have like Contingency or Glyph of Warding.

You've chosen to label Sorcerers as the "basic" caster, much like WotC did in 5e. I soundly reject that characterization as I do not subscribe to the idea that the Sorcerer is unable to cast more complex spells because of the way they learn them. By that argument you should make them 5th level casters as their simple minds cannot comprehend complex magic. That view of a Sorcerer is not the Sorcerer I know and love.

Beyond that - a Bard knows Glyph of Warding. You can't tell me that a Sorcerer is too simple minded, but a Bard is smart enough to figure out how that works..

Pushing water around is much simpler than changing complex weather patterns.

Making an explosion with Fireball is much simpler than conjuring an elemental from another plane and binding it to your will.

The sorcerer literally has an archetype for storms and yet doesn't know the basic spells to deal with storms (Control Weather, Control Water, etc). The wizard has no connection with them other than "I'm a Wizard, of course I know nearly every spell".
One could argue that neither class should have those options, but that's simply not the case.

Sorcerers have no particular affinity with nature, so I don't see why Beast Bond is relevant.

And the Wizard does? Sorcerers have far more affinity with nature, historically. They live in cities and wilderness while a Wizard lives in a tower.

Beast Bond is relevant because it's an example of a spell that is on the Wizard list (unjustifiably, most likely), but isn't on the Sorcerer list (far more justifiable than the Wizard). There are many examples of this.

I agree Sorcerers need a buff but I think that giving them the same spell list as the Wizard not only makes no sense from a fluff perspective, but is defeating the point of having them as a separate class in the first place, since at that point there's nothing to make them unique.

Then take the parts you like and leave the parts you don't. I agree that it would be nice to have different lists, but the result would be adding half or more of the missing Wizard spells to the Sorcerer list anyways.

257 to 164 = 93 spells. That's far too many


There are some examples where this makes sense - Leomund's Secret Chest for example. But Grease for example is well within a Sorcerer's wheelhouse. As are all the named spells like Melf's Acid Arrow or Melf's Minute Meteors. The Sorcerer has been pidgeonholed into a blaster role in 4e and some of that carries over into 5e, and yet it doesn't even have access to several good blasting spells.
Sure, a guy named Melf may have "discovered" the spell, but a character that inherently learns magic wouldn't know that - they would just manifest the spells inherently. Perhaps Melf learned it from a Sorcerer!

[Strill]

You've chosen to label Sorcerers as the "basic" caster, much like WotC did in 5e. I soundly reject that characterization as I do not subscribe to the idea that the Sorcerer is unable to cast more complex spells because of the way they learn them. By that argument you should make them 5th level casters as their simple minds cannot comprehend complex magic. That view of a Sorcerer is not the Sorcerer I know and love.

This is what I'm talking about. A Sorcerer's magic has nothing to do with their ability to comprehend anything. Wizards are the ones who comprehend magic. Sorcerers ARE magic. A Sorcerer's magic is intuitive, not something studied.

If you want a niche for sorcerers that fits the concept, then they should have an emphasis on self-buffs. Stuff like the Investiture spells. Maybe even expand on the passive buffs they get, like the scales and wings Dragon sorcerers get. Focus on the fact that they're made of magic and are magical creatures.

Beyond that - a Bard knows Glyph of Warding. You can't tell me that a Sorcerer is too simple minded, but a Bard is smart enough to figure out how that works..

It's nothing to do with being simple-minded. The way each of them approaches magic is fundamentally different. A Wizard's formulae and experiments are completely different from a Bard's primeval music of creation, which in turn is completely different from a Sorcerer's inborn power which they control like a part of their body. The Sorcerer's method of using magic is less intricate because it's a part of themselves, not some mechanism they can just tinker with and replace on a whim.

The sorcerer literally has an archetype for storms and yet doesn't know the basic spells to deal with storms (Control Weather, Control Water, etc). The wizard has no connection with them other than "I'm a Wizard, of course I know nearly every spell".
One could argue that neither class should have those options, but that's simply not the case.

I think a lot of archetypes deserve expanded spell lists in general. Take the Light Cleric, who can't cast Sunbeam or Sunburst for some reason.

And the Wizard does? Sorcerers have far more affinity with nature, historically. They live in cities and wilderness while a Wizard lives in a tower.

Beast Bond is relevant because it's an example of a spell that is on the Wizard list (unjustifiably, most likely), but isn't on the Sorcerer list (far more justifiable than the Wizard). There are many examples of this.

Wizards have a negative affinity to nature. Sorcerers have no affinity to nature. That doesn't mean that Sorcerers have a positive affinity to nature.

Also, I don't see Beast Bond anywhere on the Wizard list.

Then take the parts you like and leave the parts you don't. I agree that it would be nice to have different lists, but the result would be adding half or more of the missing Wizard spells to the Sorcerer list anyways.

257 to 164 = 93 spells. That's far too many


There are some examples where this makes sense - Leomund's Secret Chest for example. But Grease for example is well within a Sorcerer's wheelhouse. As are all the named spells like Melf's Acid Arrow or Melf's Minute Meteors. The Sorcerer has been pidgeonholed into a blaster role in 4e and some of that carries over into 5e, and yet it doesn't even have access to several good blasting spells.
Sure, a guy named Melf may have "discovered" the spell, but a character that inherently learns magic wouldn't know that - they would just manifest the spells inherently. Perhaps Melf learned it from a Sorcerer!

I'll concede Grease. I'll also concede the Sorcerers deserve some exclusive spells of their own, but I think keeping the named spells for Wizards only makes sense. Sorcerers shouldn't spontaneously develop a spell that's exactly like some other famous spell.

[Kryx]

If you want a niche for sorcerers that fits the concept, then they should have an emphasis on self-buffs. Stuff like the Investiture spells. Maybe even expand on the passive buffs they get, like the scales and wings Dragon sorcerers get. Focus on the fact that they're made of magic and are magical creatures..

You're welcome to build that Sorcerer. This is the version I use and suggest others do so as well.

It's nothing to do with being simple-minded. The way each of them approaches magic is fundamentally different. A Wizard's formulae and experiments are completely different from a Bard's primeval music of creation, which in turn is completely different from a Sorcerer's inborn power which they control like a part of their body. The Sorcerer's method of using magic is less intricate because it's a part of themselves, not some mechanism they can just tinker with and replace on a whim.

A different approach to magic does not mean they cannot handle complex spells. I soundly reject that view that WotC has used in 4e/5e. Different lists, sure, but they can handle complexity better than a Warlock or Bard can. Both of those classes get plenty of complex spells.

Also, I don't see Beast Bond anywhere on the Wizard list.

Entirely my mistake in this regard. It's a bit difficult to see the different lists side by side and my data had one item incorrect (Beast Bond).

I'll concede Grease. I'll also concede the Sorcerers deserve some exclusive spells of their own, but I think keeping the named spells for Wizards only makes sense. Sorcerers shouldn't spontaneously develop a spell that's exactly like some other famous spell.

This issue is about mechanical balance, not flavor. Mechanically Sorcerers were pushed to be a blaster in 4e while a Wizard remained a controller. In 5e a lot of that belief still exists - you see it in most Sorcerer builds. But Sorcerers don't even have access to some of the best blasting spells (Melf's Minute Meteors for example). I can't get behind mechanical imbalance, which is why I created this whole rework in the first place. As mentioned above you could easily have these name spells be studied from a Sorcerer who inherently manifested the spell - that makes total flavor sense.

I'd be fine meeting at a midway point between what it is now (164) and what Wizard is (256), but I doubt my choices would make you happy there either.
In practice giving the whole spell list will very rarely result in a Sorcerer taking an esoteric spell as they have far fewer slots and cannot change them very much.

[Cognomore]

Jumping back a few posts.

I think the spreadsheet does a great job for the most part, but it can't account for some things. For example Witch Bolt would be a pretty good option if cantrips didn't exist, but they do so it's a terrible spell once you hit level 11. Even potentially before that unless you're really trying to conserve resources. That's why I added the grapple bit - to make it actually somewhat useful.

Spell Settings is full of lots of values so I'll try to give a general response:

Failure rates are pure math based on MM math. Same with hits.

It's not perfect, but it's pretty accurate in most cases imo.

Gotcha. Very helpful. Thank you.

What's "MM math"?


On the topic of available spells, I think I'll work with my DM to find the right balance for us. I see both sides of this argument and think it might come down to a spell by spell discussion. What's most important to me is that your recasting of a sorcerer opened the door to this discussion.

[Kryx]

MM Math = Monster Manual math.

On the topic of spell selection: All the named spells published in Elemental Evil are available to Sorcerer. Aganazzar's scorcher, Maximilian's earthen grasp, Snilloc's snowball swarm, Melf's minute meteors, and Abi-Dalzim's horrid wilting are all available to the Sorcerer.
So the named argument doesn't have full backing - and possibly since EE is published later it is the direction they meant all along.

[Laserlight]

Heavenly Rain
In addition, whenever you start casting a spell of 1st level or higher that deals fire or radiant damage, heavenly rain falls from the sky around you. This rain causes a number of creatures of your choice up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature) that you can see within 30 feet of you to take fire or radiant damage (choose each time this ability activates) equal to the spell's level + your Charisma Modifier.

As written, it looks to me as if you must do damage to an ally if you don't have an enemy handy.

[Kryx]

As written? As intended!!! :P

I removed the "minimum of 1" part. Thanks!