Question about Hardening (SpC) a Character

[KingFrog]

Ok, I had a crazy idea and wanted to find out if it was a legitimate means of gaining hardness for a fleshy PC.

1: Spells check target viability once, at the time of casting. Later changes which would cause the target to no longer be a valid target for a spell have no effect on the ongoing spell.

2: Certain spells can temporarily change you into an object. Example: polymorph any object a creature into a comb, or a sheet of paper, etc.

Conclusion: A temporary spell making a creature an object renders them viable targets for the Hardening spell, which would persist after the initial transformation wears off.

Problem: I think its unclear if changing a creature into what we would generally consider "an object" makes them "an object" for the purpose of spells targeting objects. If the combination falls apart, I think this is where it happens.

So, here is what I'd like to ask:

1: Does a spell changing a creature into what we generally consider "an object" actually make them "an object" in D&D terms? Does PaO work for this purpose? How about Flesh to Stone?

2: Is there ANY spell/power/ability that works for changing a creature temporarily into an object?

[Flickerdart]

What does having Hardness actually do?

Whenever an object takes damage, subtract its hardness from the damage.

Unless you are an object, you do not subtract your hardness from damage.

[Malimar]

The rules are clear that "anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature", and "anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature".

The rules are less clear on the converse. It's easy to assume that anything with a Wisdom and Charisma score is a creature, not an object, but I don't think the rules are explicit on that anywhere.

Similarly, it's easy to assume that object and creature are mutually exclusive categories (anything that's an object is not a creature and anything that's a creature is not an object), but I don't think the rules are explicit on that anywhere, either.

So I don't think the rules are explicit on it not working for any of those reasons -- though "it doesn't work because if you have a Wis/Cha score you're a creature and not an object" would not be an utterly outrageous ruling.

Of course, if PaO or Flesh to Stone or death or the Psionic Sandwich trick or anything else strips you of your Wisdom and Charisma scores, then it would work, because anything without a Wisdom or Charisma score is explicitly an object. (I believe the Psionic Sandwich trick retains Wisdom and Charisma, so the Psionic Sandwich is a creature and probably not an object. Death might work -- though whether a corpse is a creature with the dead condition or an object or both is a subject of much debate.)

[KingFrog]

If hardness only functions for things that are still objects, then why is the following included in the abilities for Animated Objects (which are now creatures, rather than objects):

Hardness (Ex)
An animated object has the same hardness it had before it was animated.

If your reading was 100% percent correct, this would be a meaningless inclusion as having hardness would make no in-game difference once it was a creature.

What are your thoughts? Does the hardness still apply for Animated Objects? Do they have it, but it actually does nothing? Would that opinion apply to other creatures with hardness, why/why not?

[BowStreetRunner]

Objects have hardness (RC 106). Creatures do not.

Say I turn someone into a masonry wall. They now have the hardness (8) of a masonry wall. I could just as easily turn them into an iron wall (hardness 10) or a wooden wall (hardness 5). When they turn back into a person they no longer have the hardness of a wall.

So if I cast the hardening spell spell on them then as long as they are a wall they have the bonus. When they are a creature they do not. So if I turn Jon into a masonry wall (hardness 8) with a hardening that gives him +5 he now is a masonry wall with hardness 13. I then turn him into a person again and he has not hardness. Later, I turn him into an iron wall and he has hardness 15, as the +5 is still in effect.

Now I animate this wall and I have an animated wall with +5 hardness.

[KingFrog]

Objects have hardness (RC 106). Creatures do not.

So how would you reconcile that with this entry from the Animated Objects monster description?

Hardness (Ex)
An animated object has the same hardness it had before it was animated.

[Flickerdart]

If hardness only functions for things that are still objects, then why is the following included in the abilities for Animated Objects (which are now creatures, rather than objects):



If your reading was 100% percent correct, this would be a meaningless inclusion as having hardness would make no in-game difference once it was a creature.

What are your thoughts? Does the hardness still apply for Animated Objects? Do they have it, but it actually does nothing? Would that opinion apply to other creatures with hardness, why/why not?

By RAW, the ability Hardness (Ex) does nothing.

By slightly more lax RAW, creatures without the ability Hardness (Ex) cannot benefit from hardness, but creatures with such an ability benefit from hardness.

By RAI, a creature cannot benefit from hardness because hardness is for objects, so casting hardening on one should not be allowed.

[Diarmuid]

The Animated Object rule is a specific exception that is defined because it is an exception. There are plenty of general rules that are broken by specific class/spell/etc exceptions and those specific exceptions trump the general limitation/rule that would normally apply.

[Red Fel]

So how would you reconcile that with this entry from the Animated Objects monster description?

With this entry from the Animated Objects monster description:

Type: Construct

And this entry from the Construct type description:

A construct is an animated object or artificially constructed creature.

In other words, despite being a "monster," when you look at its type, an animated object is still an object. Specifically, although a construct, it is an object that has been animated - it is still an object. And a creature. It's both.

[Troacctid]

Similarly, it's easy to assume that object and creature are mutually exclusive categories (anything that's an object is not a creature and anything that's a creature is not an object), but I don't think the rules are explicit on that anywhere, either.

It is explicit in the glossary definition of creature.

[Malimar]

It is explicit in the glossary definition of creature.

Aha, there it is. Excellent.

In that light,

In other words, despite being a "monster," when you look at its type, an animated object is still an object. Specifically, although a construct, it is an object that has been animated - it is still an object. And a creature. It's both.

Is this a "specific trumps general" thing, or is it a dysfunction?

[Troacctid]

It's specific trumps general. Creatures don't have hardness generally. Animated objects do, specifically. Specific wins.

[Zanos]

Although that would mean that if you can turn yourself into a construct you can benefit from a hardness spell, so long as you maintain the construct form.

[Troacctid]

Well sure, if you turn yourself into an animated object using an ability that allows you to also gain the animated object's Hardness (Ex) ability. See City Soul, for example.

I disagree that constructs in general count as objects. However, I think it's a moot point in the case of animated objects, because they are actually referred to multiple times as "objects" by the text.

[dboxcar]

I think this sounds like a case of specific things trumping general principles. Things that are explicitly objects (either through sheer obviousness to everyone or the rules specifically addressing them as such), it can benefit from the effect. If not, it cannot. I would argue that once you cease to be an object any effects on you that should only affect objects would end.

Just Polymorph Any Object yourself into a statue of yourself with contingencied Animate Objects and Permanency. Or, you know. Use magic to get damage reduction like everybody else much more easily does.