[MtG] The Blackhawk set

[Jallorn]

So over here I made a card which inspired more cards, which inspired more cards, and now I want to make a whole set covering all the colors and stuff. I hope Blackhawk748 will be my teammate, and I welcome any community members who wish to help, critique, or just gawk.

The original conceit for that original card: Blackhawk's avatar is a Scottish samurai. I couldn't find a good image for such, but I found something (sort of) similar: a Viking Samurai. Thus was the Kurotaka Clansman born. Blackhawk was inspired and created a series of Kurotaka warriors, a tribe of RWB Viking Samurai. I was inspired in turn, and created a handful of cards, mostly giants, with an intent towards creating another faction of GWB samurai.

So, to the construction of this set: five factions, covering the wedges. A mix of Norse, Celtic, and Japanese elements. Bushido, and therefore Samurai, as a faction agnostic mechanic, and a single deciduous mechanic for each faction. Each faction is based in the enemy color to a certain extent, but their methods are mostly of the allied colors (what I mean by this will be clearer in practice, I hope).

Here is a dropbox folder containing data for both Magic Set Editor 2.0 and Cockatrice of the cards we are currently playtesting.

The Factions
WBR

Spoiler: Kurotaka Clan

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A clan of vicious raiders and vikings, led by Kurotaka, the First Blackguard. The Kurotaka warriors aren't especially honorable, but they are fiercely loyal to each other, and do find a certain honorable glory in battle.

White seed means that the Kurotaka are, first and foremost, a strong community that would gladly sacrifice themselves in battle for the good of the clan, but the Red and Black methods make them dangerous, amoral towards outsiders, prone to violence, fond of power over others, and passionate in battle.

The Kurotaka probably have a human tribal element, but that may not be their mechanic, and it might not be unique, though it will almost certainly be the strongest and most prevalent form.

WBG

Spoiler: Aokami Shogunate

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Led by the mightiest of the giants, Kuroth, this faction is defined by the nature of power and the responsibility of society, both of the vassal to the lord and the lord to the vassal. A feudal society governed by allegiance to an individual of higher rank, this faction features both giants and humans, and while internal conflict is not unheard of, especially between competing individuals of equal rank, it is rarely overly destructive. Channeling the feudalism of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

The Black seed here makes this faction concerned with the nature of power as well as feeding each individual's sense of individual value. Thanks to the White, this faction believes that the individual should subsume his will to a greater purpose, but the Black means that the individual has the right to choose that purpose, choose his lord. The White brings in a sense of morality, that might does not make right, but the Green and Black together help to color it that might is of value unto itself, even if it must be restrained to morality. The White and Green together make for a unified faction, although one built around packs, as it were. Loyalty to your lord as the head of your pack, and his loyalty to his lord and so on. The strong rule, but they have as much responsibility to those who serve as those who serve have to them.

WUR

Spoiler: Shirotsuro Church

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The Shirotsuro Church are united, as a faction, by their religious beliefs. Inspired by Shinto Buddhism, the Shirotsuro believe that the purpose of life is to experience, and learn from, as much of life as possible. Novelty and depth of emotion are equally important, and the devotion of one's life to either, or a balance of both, are all honored choices. They believe that the universe itself serves and rewards this purpose through reincarnation, and a life spent, for instance, farming, learning the particulars of your field, your crops, your herd, the weather, while perhaps less glamorous and honorable than finding a new chemical substance to open the mind or more directly serving the church as a caretaker of knowledge, is still a valuable experience, and those who are above such things only are for having lived that life already.

The Red seed makes the Shirotsuro quick to action, quick to new experiences and ideas, and ferociously zealous. The Blue and White give cunning and organization to their efforts. Whether working as sparse insurgents or a massive army, the Shirotsuro are dangerous due to their zeal, cunning, and broad experience.

This faction has a lot of U and W spirits, as well as humans.

URG

Spoiler: Akashishi Tribe

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The Akashishi Tribe are a faction of bards, druids, and warriors, a people with a secret tongue who find might in secret knowledge and the preservation of history, a people who commune with the animist spirits of nature and revere the secrets they have to share. More of a pure Shinto angle.

A Blue seed creates a love of knowledge and discovery, while Green and Red bring in a natural, one might say grassroots, approach to it. The Bards preserve history and glorious deeds in song, the Druids are keepers of secrets gleaned from nature and commune with nature spirits, and the average warrior is emboldened to defend his peoples' passion for knowledge.

Has some spirits, mostly Green, but some Blue, and plenty of humans and a few giants.

UBG

Spoiler: Spirits of Aokoi

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Channeling the darker aspects and tales of the Fae, this is your court of tempters, sneaks, thieves, and assassins. Featuring such monsters as Changeling Ninjas (probably, still uncertain about using Changeling since it wouldn't be universal and kind of demands more tribal elements), tricksy pixies, and noble, dark, and dangerous high lords of the fae, this faction is all about power and manipulation because to their minds it is the right and natural order of things that the strong and clever should dominate. Definitely encourage some elements of Japanese demons, Oni, but I lack robust knowledge of that topic, so I may have to do a lot of research.

The Green seed makes the Fae a natural sort of demon, as opposed to the twisted monstrosities that Demons are, or even that some of the Fae's servants might be. But they are solidly Black and Blue, wielding their naturally mystic power and leveraging the knowledge of many lifetimes in every dark and twisted advantage they can manage.

Spoiler: Concept Development

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Kurotaka Clan: Warfare
Unique Mechanic possibilities - Plunder, Human tribal, Bushido, Formation, Martyr, Renown, Prosperity/Dominance, Extort/Extort variant/Pillage, Morbid
Flagged for Playtesting: Martyr (Sacrifice this creature: all other creatures you control gain X), Pillage (Whenever this creature attacks, you may tap a creature. If you do, each opponent loses a life and you gain life equal to the life lost this way), Morbid
Japanese inspiration - Samurai inspiration
Celtic inspiration - Perhaps the Highlanders
Nordic inspiration - Viking inspiration
Other themes - largely human tribal element. Community willing to sacrifice selves for the clan.

Aokame Shogunate: Tradition, Responsibility
Unique mechanic possibilities - Heirlooms, Settlement, Fortify, Giri (social responsibility, ill defined mechanically assymetric or bottom up boons (cheaper creatures make more expensive ones better)), Graveyard focus, Prosperity (Life Focus), Radiance, Renown, Legacy, Headhunting
Flagged for Playtesting: Legacy (If this card is in the graveyard, you may cast it for its legacy cost. It becomes an enchantment. Enchanted creature gets X. If this card would go to the graveyard and its an enchantment, exile it instead), Renown
Japanese inspiration - Shogunate feudalism
Celtic inspiration - Pre-Galfridian (that is, original Welsh) King Arthur
Nordic inspiration - Giants. I could possibly see ties with the Wild Hunt.
Other themes - Led by giants, features both giants and humans. Loyalty to "pack" leaders.

Shirotsuro Church: Religion
Unique mechanic possibilities - Reincarnation, Graveyard spell recovery, Legacy, Spellswap
Flagged for Playtesting: Reincarnation (When this creature dies, you may put a creature card with CMC X or less from your hand to the battlefield), Spellswap (When you cast this spell, you may instead cast an spell of the same time with CMC X or less from your graveyard)
Japanese inspiration - Shinto Buddhism
Celtic inspiration - Though not solely a Celtic event, the way in which Christianity spread through the Celts (and sometimes adopted local gods into Saints) can provide some worthwhile elements
Nordic inspiration - (I could see some potential ties to Norse mythology as well, such as more ties with valkyries and the Wild Hunt) I could certainly see Valkyries as a creature type, perhaps a Reincarnation (if we use that mechanic)
Other themes - Humans and spirits. Organization exists to give the freedom to seek perfection.

Akashishi Tribe: Technology
Unique mechanic possibilities - Graveyard spell recovery, Mana ramp, Convoke, Card Draw, Insight, Melody, Harmony, Research, Surge
Flagged for Playtesting: Research (This card casts 1 less for each instant or sorcery spell you've cast since the beginning of your last turn), Harmony (The next time you cast a spell this turn, add this card's effects to that spell), Surge, Totem Armor
Japanese inspiration: Pure Shinto/animist spirits of nature
Celtic inspiration - Druids, bards, etc, and their relation to nature
Nordic inspiration - Skalds would also be a good fit for "bards". Possibly the 'bards' of this celtic group could be a mix of Celtic bards and Nordic skalds. Skalds could also fit in as the more red/green aspect, the warrior poets more concerned with glory than history.
Other themes - Humans, some spirits, few giants. Preservation of nature's secrets.

Spirits of Aokoi: Commerce
Unique mechanic possibilities - Graveyard creature manipulation, creature control manipulation, Gold, Card Draw, Discarding, Looking at Opponent's Hands, Duplication, Insight, Wither, Retrace, Aura Swap, Promised
Flagged for Playtesting: Retrace, Promised
Japanese inspiration -Ninjas, Oni, Yokai, Japanese spirits (like maybe the Yuki-onna (an inhumanly beautiful spirit that kills by freezing) and other spirits).
Celtic inspiration - The fae. Many celtic fae would work very well, like Banshees, a herald of death with relations with the Irish goddess of battle, or Leanan Sidhe, vampirelike fey who give inspiration to artists in exchange for their sanity and their life. Fits well.
Nordic inspiration - The nordic concept of elves, dwarves, Norns (who control fate), fylgja (spirits/shapeshifters/animals) could fit.
Other themes: Spirits, "natural demons", ...; Power and manipulation, leveraging knowledge and power and deceit into advantages.


Possible universal mechanics: Bushido, Fealty, Settlement, Fortify, Gold, Level Up, Gating, Land-matters, Totem Armor

Some of the possibilities for faction mechanics could still serve as non-keyword mechanics.

[Blue Ghost]

I could attempt to help with this. I have next to no experience with set design, but I think I'm pretty good at individual cards. I'll offer critique and attempt to contribute my own cards. Note that designing a good set is much, much harder than designing good individual cards, as the pieces have to all fit together to make a working environment.

[Blackhawk748]

Oh boy, here we go.

While i was using Bushido with a couple of the cards in the Kurotaka Clan, im thinking that should just be a Block thing not a faction thing, mostly cuz (IIRC) thats how Kamigawa did it. And yes, Kurotaka is a Human Tribal, with a couple of Birds.

[Jallorn]

I could attempt to help with this. I have next to no experience with set design, but I think I'm pretty good at individual cards. I'll offer critique and attempt to contribute my own cards. Note that designing a good set is much, much harder than designing good individual cards, as the pieces have to all fit together to make a working environment.

I'm guessing the key is to create, examine, test, and iterate/repeat. Should be good fun.

[Blackhawk748]

I could attempt to help with this. I have next to no experience with set design, but I think I'm pretty good at individual cards. I'll offer critique and attempt to contribute my own cards. Note that designing a good set is much, much harder than designing good individual cards, as the pieces have to all fit together to make a working environment.

Glad to have you on board, we need you to double check us.

[Blue Ghost]

Do you want to do this the proper, methodical way, with exploratory design, set skeletons, commons-first, multiple rounds of playtesting? Or do you want to just throw things at the wall and see what sticks?

[Jallorn]

Do you want to do this the proper, methodical way, with exploratory design, set skeletons, commons-first, multiple rounds of playtesting? Or do you want to just throw things at the wall and see what sticks?

I have been doing the latter, but I am not opposed to the former, though I know the method not.

[Blue Ghost]

I have been doing the latter, but I am not opposed to the former, though I know the method not.

I've never designed a proper set myself, but I've observed some set design process, and we could try to imitate it. Before we commit any designs on paper, there's a good amount of time spent brainstorming the structure of the set, how we want it to feel, the mechanics we use, creative elements first. The commons are the first designs to be finalized, since they're the backbone of the set and shape how the set plays out in draft.

That's assuming that this is a standard set designed to be drafted. If it's constructed only, then things will look very different. I'd prefer a draftable set, since draft is my favorite Magic format, but I acknowledge that making a set work for draft is quite difficult.

Even if we don't aim for draft, we still need to know how the set will be played. If it's for constructed only, then I think our product would look more like a collection of decks than a real set. There would be a different process involved, probably a simpler one.

I'll let you guys take the lead on the design. I'm just on board to advise.

[Jallorn]

I was absolutely imagining a genuine set, and if at the end we were able to draft it, that would be even better (draft is also my favorite format). I've got some kind of guidelines up for the set, but there's certainly more room to explore and expand.

[Blackhawk748]

I've never designed a proper set myself, but I've observed some set design process, and we could try to imitate it. Before we commit any designs on paper, there's a good amount of time spent brainstorming the structure of the set, how we want it to feel, the mechanics we use, creative elements first. The commons are the first designs to be finalized, since they're the backbone of the set and shape how the set plays out in draft.

That's assuming that this is a standard set designed to be drafted. If it's constructed only, then things will look very different. I'd prefer a draftable set, since draft is my favorite Magic format, but I acknowledge that making a set work for draft is quite difficult.

Even if we don't aim for draft, we still need to know how the set will be played. If it's for constructed only, then I think our product would look more like a collection of decks than a real set. There would be a different process involved, probably a simpler one.

I'll let you guys take the lead on the design. I'm just on board to advise.

If we're doing this we may as well go for broke. Even if Draftable is to much work later on, its not like we can't shift to constructed.

At the moment i think Kurotaka Clan is fairly solid, its your standard Humans who all buff each other by simply existing, or coming into play etc. Jallorn seems to have a solid concept on the Giants, the Fae and the Celts have a solid theme but nothing like a mechanical background. The church is just empty right now.

So we need commons, which means some cannon fodder. Funnily enough we could make a 1 drop 1/1 Human Warrior for each color and it should work fine for each faction, cuz the Fae totally have human minions

[Blue Ghost]

Okay, so a draftable set it is.

The structure of the set as you envision it, with clearly delineated 3-color factions, is quite close to Khans of Tarkir, which happens to be one of my favorite sets. I think there's a lot we can take from Khans to apply here, though of course we'll want to differentiate ourselves as well.

Some features of Khans that I think are relevant:

The average deck played three colors, which was a radical departure from most sets, where two-color decks were the norm. To enable this, a lot of common color fixing was needed. This is definitely something we want to carry over in our set.

Each clan of Tarkir had a distinct playstyle and felt very different. This is always important in any set with clearly defined factions. We'll need to make sure that whatever mechanics we choose play differently.

At the same time, there was significant strategic overlap between the clans, especially the ones that shared two colors. There were distinct archetypes in each enemy-color pair, each of which could be played in two clans. It was pretty easy to start the draft with two enemy colors and decide on your third color later. That's a great feature that I think we should keep.

Khans of Tarkir had a stronger focus on creatures and combat than most sets. All the clan mechanics, as well as morph, dealt directly with creatures and combat, and that created the feeling of a tactical wargame. The feel of a set is very important. The flavor of the set seems to be leaning toward a similar combat focus, so if that's the way we want to go, we'll want all our mechanics to support that.

Morph was a huge part of what made Khans of Tarkir tick. It provided a huge array of tactical options, and most importantly, it helped with smoothing in a three-color environment, since morph cards can always be played even if you don't have all your colors. We're probably not using morph, and I doubt we can come up with a mechanic that's as good as it, but I think we'll at least need a smoothing mechanic.

So I guess our questions now are: How do we want the set to play? How do we want each faction to function? What mechanics do we want to use? I think we should brainstorm multiple ideas, and choose from the best.

[Jallorn]

At the moment, the Abzan faction has taken bolster, because I thought it interacted interestingly with the crow spell Blackhawk made. My redesigned commander of the faction takes +1/+1 counters from other creatures and puts them in himself at two for one, then gives something (right now regeneration) to all creatures on his side with less toughness. I like this sort of assymetric support for them, with commanders taking power and giving abilitues in return.

I also like the idea of a full ten cycle of dual colored uncommons. The allied colors solidly representing their faction's mechanics while the enemy colors can fit either faction.

[5a Violista]

I'm glad this thread was now made. So, confession: I'm pretty bad at balancing and making mechanics. On the other hand, I love coming up with narratives and mythological aspects and connecting lines.

First thing, I think we should come up with the core ideas and mechanics of each faction. Also, which part of the Nippo-Celto-Nordic theme they draw from. That way, themes and inspiration and factions don't get muddled.
Of course, there's the Bushido for all five factions. Another thing that could fit with all of them would be the concept of "Shrines". I remember those shrines appearing in Champions of Kamigawa. I think those would be thematically good.

Kurotaka Clan: What should the clan's unique mechanic be? "All other humans/somethings gain _ability_"? Something else?
Japanese inspiration - Samurai inspiration
Celtic inspiration - ???
Nordic inspiration - Viking inspiration
Other themes - largely human tribal element. Community willing to sacrifice selves for the clan.

Unnamed Civilization: Unique mechanic - Bolster
Japanese inspiration - Shogunate feudalism
Celtic inspiration - ???:
Nordic inspiration - Giants. I could possibly see ties with the Wild Hunt.
Other themes - Led by giants, features both giants and humans. Loyalty to "pack" leaders.

Unnamed church: Unique mechanic - ???
Japanese inspiration - Shinto Buddhism
Celtic inspiration - ???
Nordic inspiration - ??? (I could see some potential ties to Norse mythology as well, such as more ties with valkyries and the Wild Hunt)
Other themes - Humans and spirits. Organization exists to give the freedom to seek perfection.

Unnamed Celts: Unique mechanic - ???
Japanese inspiration: Pure Shinto/animist spirits of nature
Celtic inspiration - Druids, bards, etc, and their relation to nature
Nordic inspiration - ???. Skalds would also be a good fit for "bards". Possibly the 'bards' of this celtic group could be a mix of Celtic bards and Nordic skalds.
Other themes - Humans, some spirits, few giants. Preservation of nature's secrets.

Unnamed Fae: Unique mechanic - ???
Japanese inspiration -Ninjas, Oni, Yokai, Japanese spirits (like maybe the Yuki-onna (an inhumanly beautiful spirit that kills by freezing) and other spirits).
Celtic inspiration - The fae. Many celtic fae would work very well, like Banshees, a herald of death with relations with the Irish goddess of battle, or Leanan Sidhe, vampirelike fey who give inspiration to artists in exchange for their sanity and their life. Fits well.
Nordic inspiration - ???. The nordic concept of elves, dwarves, Norns (who control fate), fylgja (spirits/shapeshifters/animals) could fit.
Other themes: Spirits, "natural demons", ...; Power and manipulation, leveraging knowledge and power and deceit into advantages.

So, we need to answer these ???s and fill out the details.


I see people have posted since I started writing this, which is understandable because of how long it took for me to look them up. I'm just going to post this now and then read what everyone else has suggested so far.
I really like the concepts behind the Unnamed Fey group and the Unnamed Celts group.

[Blue Ghost]

I think it would be good for us to have an overarching theme for the entire set, one that's broader than the five factions. Ravnica was about the interactions of guilds in the city, Khans of Tarkir was about war between rival warlords...

My proposal: Advancement and competition between rival civilizations. This is similar to the theme of Tarkir, but broader than just war. Each faction could be a different civilization with a different focus.

RWB: Warfare
GBW: Tradition
URG: Technology
WRU: Religion
BGU: Commerce

This could give us a broad direction to go in. Just a suggestion.

[Blackhawk748]

Okay, so a draftable set it is.

The structure of the set as you envision it, with clearly delineated 3-color factions, is quite close to Khans of Tarkir, which happens to be one of my favorite sets. I think there's a lot we can take from Khans to apply here, though of course we'll want to differentiate ourselves as well.

I agree, Khans was a great block (even though i prefer Dragons)

The average deck played three colors, which was a radical departure from most sets, where two-color decks were the norm. To enable this, a lot of common color fixing was needed. This is definitely something we want to carry over in our set.

Each clan of Tarkir had a distinct playstyle and felt very different. This is always important in any set with clearly defined factions. We'll need to make sure that whatever mechanics we choose play differently.

At the same time, there was significant strategic overlap between the clans, especially the ones that shared two colors. There were distinct archetypes in each enemy-color pair, each of which could be played in two clans. It was pretty easy to start the draft with two enemy colors and decide on your third color later. That's a great feature that I think we should keep.

I agree, Khans did triple colors very, very well.

Khans of Tarkir had a stronger focus on creatures and combat than most sets. All the clan mechanics, as well as morph, dealt directly with creatures and combat, and that created the feeling of a tactical wargame. The feel of a set is very important. The flavor of the set seems to be leaning toward a similar combat focus, so if that's the way we want to go, we'll want all our mechanics to support that.

Morph was a huge part of what made Khans of Tarkir tick. It provided a huge array of tactical options, and most importantly, it helped with smoothing in a three-color environment, since morph cards can always be played even if you don't have all your colors. We're probably not using morph, and I doubt we can come up with a mechanic that's as good as it, but I think we'll at least need a smoothing mechanic.

I loved this about Tarkir. I'd say one of "universal" mechanics should be Bushido, while its primarily a White Red thing, Black has done it a few times, and Green has done it at least once. This won't work as a smoothing mechanic, but it does tie everyone together thematically.

So I guess our questions now are: How do we want the set to play? How do we want each faction to function? What mechanics do we want to use? I think we should brainstorm multiple ideas, and choose from the best.

Well, Kurotaka is obviously the United Army faction. They dont have a ton of huge creatures (im figuring they'll cap out a 4s base, maybe a 5) and they buff each other. Im probably gonna make their Faction Mechanic Battlecry.

The Giants are gonna be helping each other with Bolster.

The Celts i see as Instants the Deck, lots of spell chucking with both Red and Blue and getting some nice creatures and mana ramp with Green

I see the Fae as also doing Blue controlling, but using Green to boost their critters and Black to debuff the enemy, so Control the Deck.

And then we have the WUR faction, and im honestly not sure what to do here as im not sure how to blend these colors.

I think it would be good for us to have an overarching theme for the entire set, one that's broader than the five factions. Ravnica was about the interactions of guilds in the city, Khans of Tarkir was about war between rival warlords...

My proposal: Advancement and competition between rival civilizations. This is similar to the theme of Tarkir, but broader than just war. Each faction could be a different civilization with a different focus.

RWB: Warfare
GBW: Tradition
URG: Technology
WRU: Religion
BGU: Commerce

This could give us a broad direction to go in. Just a suggestion.

Well we did kinda walk into those themes. Clan Kurotaka has been about nothing but war from the word go (thats what happens when your namesake is an Elder Evil ) I can see the Tradition thing with the Giants, as Feudalism doesnt work unless you respect tradition.

I recommend changing Technology to Evolution so we can (at least somewhat) keep the nature ties. They are still all about changing and improving, but in a more "natural" way. I guess they could do the Simic counter manipulation thing, i always thought that was a neat tick.

Im good with the other two, the Fae are known for making deals after all.

[5a Violista]

I think it would be good for us to have an overarching theme for the entire set, one that's broader than the five factions. Ravnica was about the interactions of guilds in the city, Khans of Tarkir was about war between rival warlords...

My proposal: Advancement and competition between rival civilizations. This is similar to the theme of Tarkir, but broader than just war. Each faction could be a different civilization with a different focus.

RWB: Warfare ("Kurotaka Clan")
GBW: Tradition ("Unnamed Civilization")
URG: Technology ("Unnamed Celts")
WRU: Religion ("Unnamed Church")
BGU: Commerce ("Unnamed Fae")

This could give us a broad direction to go in. Just a suggestion.

I like this suggestion, that the story of this set is about the interaction of different civilization concepts. The Kurotaka Clan is focused on warfare and conquering; the Giant/Human clan is focused on maintaining their tradition; the "Church" is focused on religion and belief; the "Celts" are focused on technology (how would we fit that with "druids and bards and Shinto"? I think it could work: they see technology as part of nature, something that ought to be revered and maintained, working towards technological superiority over the other civilizations because the other civilizations don't respect the knowledge enough to deserve it, or something); and the "Fae" focus on building civilization through commerce: trading secrets and knowledge, trading life and debts, hiring mercenaries and enforcers for debts, etc.

It makes for a good theme and good conflict.


Been thinking about the unnamed Church-group and the Celts-group:
I'm thinking the Celts-group see spirits as created by knowledge of the living: the greater knowledge you influence, the stronger spirit you become. The Church-group sees spirits as lost beings in need of liberation through letting go of the knowledge. The Fey-group (as fey from celtic and japanese mythology are frequently associated with spirits) would treat spirits as beings with a debt that still needs to be paid. [/idle thoughts]

[Blue Ghost]

If we're going with those themes, some mechanical ideas. Disclaimer: I am not good at designing set mechanics. Take my suggestions with a grain of salt.

I don't think we should have bushido as a universal mechanic. Using it in every faction will push the entire set toward a warlike feel, and that doesn't seem like what we're going for. We don't need to have a universal mechanic; the Ravnica sets only have guild mechanics. We can decide on a universal mechanic later, depending on what the set needs mechanically.
One proposal I have for a universal mechanic is level up. It has issues, true, but I feel like it has a lot of potential. It can tie into a theme of advancement, which feels right for a set about the growth of civilizations. And it's a mana sink, and can potentially alleviate some of the mana problems a three-color set will inevitably have.

RWB: Kurotaka will be the most aggressive faction. Bushido or battle cry could work as a mechanic for it. If you want to go for a more organizational feel, I have this untested mechanic that we could try out.
Formation (Whenever this creature attacks, it gets +1/+0 until end of turn for each other attacking creature.)

GBW: A focus on tradition and the past might translate mechanically into a graveyard focus. Maybe a mechanic that cares about things in the graveyard, or activates from the graveyard?

URG: This faction would focus on advancement and growth. We could represent that with +1/+1 counters, but that feels more like the growth of individuals rather than the growth of the civilization. Maybe this set could focus on large cards with a cost reduction mechanic of some kind. Convoke could be a good flavor fit, representing people working together to achieve great things, but that's pretty firmly white/green. We could combine this with instants and sorceries, with a mechanic representing research that makes future spells cheaper, perhaps?

WRU: No ideas for this yet.

BGU: Commerce can be represented in a variety of ways. Lifegain could work, though a life theme would want to be part white. Maybe something around drawing cards.
An idea:
Tariff (When ~ enters the battlefield, an opponent may have you draw a card.)
Followed by some punishment if no one did. Punisher mechanics can be problematic, but maybe it's worth testing.

I remember they tested out Gold tokens for the Sultai mechanic. It ended up not working, because mana fixing appearing in a subset of colors led to color imbalance, but we could try it out for our BGU faction. Alternatively, Gold tokens could be a universal mechanic for all the factions.

We should pick some provisional names for the factions so we can talk about them more easily.

@Mahonri Violist: That's some great work. I appoint you director of the creative team!
... Wait. I don't have the authority to do that. Okay. I nominate you for director of the creative team!

[Jallorn]

the "Celts" are focused on technology (how would we fit that with "druids and bards and Shinto"? I think it could work: they see technology as part of nature, something that ought to be revered and maintained, working towards technological superiority over the other civilizations because the other civilizations don't respect the knowledge enough to deserve it, or something);

I actually think it works very well for the druid side of things, as the druids, as I understand them, were men of nature and its mystic secrets. They worked magic through a mix of knowledge, knowing the right words (words are very powerful in Celtic mythologies) and names, knowing how to mix the right plants into a potion, and through a communion with nature, knowing when to give back, when to not take so much that nature can no longer give in the future. For the Druids, knowledge is a part of nature, a divine gift that gives one the power to control, if used wisely.

Been thinking about the unnamed Church-group and the Celts-group:
I'm thinking the Celts-group see spirits as created by knowledge of the living: the greater knowledge you influence, the stronger spirit you become. The Church-group sees spirits as lost beings in need of liberation through letting go of the knowledge. The Fey-group (as fey from celtic and japanese mythology are frequently associated with spirits) would treat spirits as beings with a debt that still needs to be paid. [/idle thoughts]

To expand on this, the Celts see a spirit as a kind of ascension, depending on the details, or as the natural state of some aspects of nature (your animist nature spirits), I would actually see spirits in the Church being considered partial ascension, perhaps a sort of Buddha analogue, staying behind to assist those who are not yet enlightened, and they both see Fae trapped spirits as cursed men.

As far as mechanics: what about giving each faction two mechanics, that it shares with its two neighbors? So Kurotaka and the Shogunate could share Bushido, while Kurotaka and the church share a Human tribal mechanic. This would help with the crossover and cohesiveness between factions for deck building, and serve as an excellent way to show how the factions aren't entirely all that different. So essentially, we tie mechanics to the enemy color pairs, so Bushido is a WB mechanic for example. That vastly simplifies the thematic demands of the mechanics and allows us to play with a greater breadth of abilities.

Maybe we could expand to include allied color mechanics, for a total of ten mechanics, but then we're looking at a block, because Ravnica released the guilds in two sets, and put them together in the third. Only five new mechanics per set. Then if we're doing a block, we'd need to ask whether we're doing an old style three part block or a new style four part, two pairs of sets block.

I'm also thinking, since Blackhawk gets Kurotaka, we could toss ourselves into the faction leaders to a certain extent likewise. Personally, I have a fun image of a changeling turned bard leading the Celts.

Also, I forgot to quote it, so it slipped through earlier, but I like the idea of including the Level Up mechanic, since Celtic and Nordic mythology had strong influence on western fantasy, and the image of the growing hero is a strong one (DnD anyone?), and one that has space in Japanese tales as well.

[Blue Ghost]

The issue with sharing mechanics between factions is that it dilutes the identity of the factions. If we had five two-color mechanics, then we'd need something else to form the core identity of a three-color faction. I agree that we should have mechanical overlap between neighboring factions, but I don't think sharing keywords is the way to do it.

If we're expanding into a block, I think we should make it a two-set block. But I suggest we focus on the first set first, and let it stand alone. Don't bite off more than we can chew (though we might already have done that).

[Jallorn]

My concern with only having faction mechanics is that Bushido really doesn't lend itself as well to a faction mechanic, at least not as the setting is now, but its one that I want to find a way to work with. Both the Kurotaka and the Shogunate have a strong need for Samurai and Bushido in their flavor. The former are literally Viking Samurai in basic concept, while the latter have a stronger tie to the moral ideal of the Samurai.

Beyond that, all the other factions could do some interesting things with Samurai. The Church can have Samurai as holy warriors, a sort of Japanese Paladin, as well as channeling the tea ceremony and the more morale influencing tools of Japanese war (idea: Whistling Arrows as a sorcery or instant), the Fae can have Changeling and corrupted Samurai, Ronin betrayers of their responsibilities or honorable men sworn to dishonorable masters, and the Celts can play up the artistic side of Samurai, the appeal of poetry and calligraphy, painting and rock gardening. None of the others have a strict need for Samurai in the way the first two do, but if we had Samurai and Bushido in all factions, there is some interesting creative space.

Now, perhaps we can have Samurai type creatures without Bushido, but every single Samurai that exists has Bushido, and I don't quite feel convinced that that should be changed.

I've had a thought regarding the church, that they should have two conflicting beliefs: first that all should rightfully follow their religion in a very evangelizing, Christian fashion, but also that the end goal of perfection is very user defined. They have rituals and paths laid out to lead you there, but the end goal is always unique, within some general parameters. Something of a conflict between white and red.

[Blackhawk748]

All of the above is why i was thinking Bushido could be the "set" mechanic. I mean every faction is gonna have their Samurai, so let them have Bushido.

I like the idea for the church, could lead to some neat cards.

[Elricaltovilla]

I am permanently behind the time when it comes to MTG cards, but I'd like to help out when I can if that's cool with you all. At the very least I can help with fluff.

[Blackhawk748]

I am permanently behind the time when it comes to MTG cards, but I'd like to help out when I can if that's cool with you all. At the very least I can help with fluff.

Dont worry, the last set i actually knew well was probably the Lorwyn Block, i really picked it back up for Innistrad and then kinda skipped again until Tarkir, though i do really like the Devotion mechanic from Theros.

[Blue Ghost]

Bushido as a set mechanic could work, but it doesn't mesh well with my proposed theme for the set. If you want to fit bushido in, we'll need to find a different theme. The theme isn't set in stone yet, so I'm fine with that.

"Every faction has samurai" and "Bushido as a set mechanic" don't seem like they should be locked in right now. That's a detail that comes later, unless you want "samurai world" to be the main theme of the set.

I think we should decide on a very broad, general direction for the set as our first step. Something that can be summed up in a simple phrase, like Innistrad was "horror world" and Khans of Tarkir was "warlord world". My proposal is "empires world," but that doesn't have to be our final decision. Once we pick one, everything else should be in service to it. Any ideas that don't further it should be shelved.

[Elricaltovilla]

Bushido as a set mechanic could work, but it doesn't mesh well with my proposed theme for the set. If you want to fit bushido in, we'll need to find a different theme. The theme isn't set in stone yet, so I'm fine with that.

"Every faction has samurai" and "Bushido as a set mechanic" don't seem like they should be locked in right now. That's a detail that comes later, unless you want "samurai world" to be the main theme of the set.

I think we should decide on a very broad, general direction for the set as our first step. Something that can be summed up in a simple phrase, like Innistrad was "horror world" and Khans of Tarkir was "warlord world". My proposal is "empires world," but that doesn't have to be our final decision. Once we pick one, everything else should be in service to it. Any ideas that don't further it should be shelved.

Can you expand on "Empires World" a bit?

[Jallorn]

I don't agree that it necessarily conflicts with the theme you're proposing. The Samurai (and we can put elements of the western knight in there as well, there's a reason they are seen as quite similar) while a soldier at the base, is more than that as well. Bushido in particular, though meaning literally Way of the Warrior, has a lot of elements and precepts that are not war focused. Some of them started as peaceful ways to train tangential skills, notably discipline and control, but even those became valued for their own sake.

The Samurai is not simply a warrior, nor even simply a warrior class, the Samurai is a nobility. The Samurai has a responsibility to their society, and they are a reflection of it. They are expected to be honorable, reflecting the values of their society. They are poets and politicians, leaders and protectors, warriors and schemers, and more.

The Samurai can very much be reflections of the core values of their faction, and be the angle that brings those larger conflicts into the more limited sphere of war, and even personal combat. Where the Kurotaka value Samurai as skilled and deadly warriors, the Shogunate values them for personal honor and leadership, as the structural backbone of their society. The church sees them as devoted warriors, swearing their honor and service to the religion, the Celts see them as poet warriors, committed to excellence in peace as well as war, and the Fae see them as soldiers, pawns to move around on the board, one limited, but still valuable, kind of power.

It brings the topic of war forward, perhaps, but any analysis of nations and empires ought to, I think, place some special emphasis on war. Magic is a game about conflict and combat, generally, and war is one of the main currencies that nations and power centers had to deal with each other for a long time.

[Blackhawk748]

Great Stuff

Jallorn explained it better than i could, it also didnt help that i was still partially asleep.

[5a Violista]

I think the problem with Bushido is that the mechanic Bushido is simply a combat-centered mechanic with themes of warfare. We can have each of the factions follow different aspects of (real) Bushido but if we want to use Bushido as a mechanic and have real-life samurai represented through every faction, then we either have to (1) give every faction a warfare-oriented mechanic, or (2) make Samurai-type Creatures without the mechanic Bushido, or (3) make samurai-themed Creatures without the creature type Samurai.

Choosing (1) makes Bushido an all-factions mechanic, which suggests a large thematic focus on feudal warfare as the setting, makes every faction combat-oriented and play similarly, and doesn't answer the problem of needing a universal mechanic that makes it easier to play a 3-color deck instead of a 2-color deck.
Choosing (2) is weird because every Samurai-subtype card has Bushido. It's pretty much a defining ability of Samurai-subtype Creatures.
Choosing (3) has the potential to cause confusion.

[Jallorn]

Hmm... that... is a fair argument, and I will have to think on it some. I'm going to go do some research on the Kamigawa block and how that's set up. I think it will be a useful comparison.

[Blue Ghost]

Can you expand on "Empires World" a bit?

Sorry, I meant the proposal I posted earlier, about the advancement and conflict of civilizations. Maybe it needs a catchier title.

I don't agree that it necessarily conflicts with the theme you're proposing. The Samurai (and we can put elements of the western knight in there as well, there's a reason they are seen as quite similar) while a soldier at the base, is more than that as well. Bushido in particular, though meaning literally Way of the Warrior, has a lot of elements and precepts that are not war focused. Some of them started as peaceful ways to train tangential skills, notably discipline and control, but even those became valued for their own sake.

The Samurai is not simply a warrior, nor even simply a warrior class, the Samurai is a nobility. The Samurai has a responsibility to their society, and they are a reflection of it. They are expected to be honorable, reflecting the values of their society. They are poets and politicians, leaders and protectors, warriors and schemers, and more.

The Samurai can very much be reflections of the core values of their faction, and be the angle that brings those larger conflicts into the more limited sphere of war, and even personal combat. Where the Kurotaka value Samurai as skilled and deadly warriors, the Shogunate values them for personal honor and leadership, as the structural backbone of their society. The church sees them as devoted warriors, swearing their honor and service to the religion, the Celts see them as poet warriors, committed to excellence in peace as well as war, and the Fae see them as soldiers, pawns to move around on the board, one limited, but still valuable, kind of power.

It brings the topic of war forward, perhaps, but any analysis of nations and empires ought to, I think, place some special emphasis on war. Magic is a game about conflict and combat, generally, and war is one of the main currencies that nations and power centers had to deal with each other for a long time.

All right, that's fair. There is the issue that real life samurai are heavily associated with a single culture, so in a set focusing on different civilizations, it seems strange that all of them have samurai. But I can accept it on a flavor standpoint.

My main issue is mechanical. We only have room for a single universal mechanic at most, and it will play a huge part in determining how the set plays, and using bushido as our universal mechanic will pull heavily toward a combat focus mechanically. We already have a combat-focused wedge set in Khans of Tarkir, so putting a heavy combat focus on our set will step on the toes of an existing set and set a very high standard for us.

We can try out bushido, but it may not be the optimal choice for our vision. How flexible are you on having bushido? Is it something that you'd be willing to give up on if it ends up not working out?

Also, are we decided on "empires world" (or "clash of civilizations", or whatever) being the theme of the set?


EDIT: Ninja'd by the bard. That is exactly what I'm trying to say.

Hmm... that... is a fair argument, and I will have to think on it some. I'm going to go do some research on the Kamigawa block and how that's set up. I think it will be a useful comparison.

That's a good idea, but note that Kamigawa made a lot of design mistakes and was quite poorly received. It did some things well, but not everything Kamigawa did is a good idea.