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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Party compositions losing steam around 8th to 10th level is something I've noticed with both my 3rd edition and Pathfinder games and it wasn't like anyone voiced any kind of dissatisfaction with the combats. But that happened to me only three times over 16 years, so I am not sure how representative that really might be.
    However, I think that at least in my cases, it really was more about the campaigns being mostly serial one-shots with little investment in either the characters or the setting by the players and that it was primarily a matter of play time and not about character advancement. I believe with a campaign that has more long term goals and a deeper integration of the PCs into the game world this would probably be much less of a problem.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Having started campaigns at level 13+, I can say that the game can be very enjoyable in that range too. However, it requires that the party be crafted so that everyone is playing the same game (essentially, everyone or nobody is a full list spellcaster). Our first 3rd edition campaign ran from 1st level to a mishmash of 13th-14th level and even the caster players who had no idea of what they were doing were just clearly playing a different game than the rest at that point. When we played Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, our party had a caster and a non-caster and ultimately the party had a caster, a few demons more powerful than the non-caster subservient to the caster, and said non-caster. The non-caster was essentially a completely trivial existence. However, games where we've actually all rolled on the same side of the spell versatility/power spectrum, those are great. The system is just two different games in one - non-casters don't advance far enough. Epic non-casters would need to be capable of deeds like those of Heracles or Achilleus to be able to exist in the same spectrum.

    In AD&D it was a bit different due to the casters' leveling speed, spell preparation times, dangers of casting certain spells and spells' vulnerability to disruption, but fundamentally the same dynamics exist (hell, that's true for the OG characters as is apparent from literature) - though back then it was only Mages, but they were still playing the game of "divine ascension, guardian of the world, etc." while non-casters were high level Mercenaries or whatever. Essentially, the Mages were the big world-defining beings that were on a quest for ultimate power/artifact/stopping whatever evil being from being manifested in any given plane, while the other characters (if any) were the tagalongs. Everyone had their strongholds and retainers and potentially countries or whatever, but the personal power of the magi was still the thing that truly shaped the world; hell, the classic adventures are generally "Spellcaster X does Y, heroes try to intervene" (be it Vecna's ascension, Acecerak's untold plan or whatever). Magus Keeps in and of themselves exist mostly so that the spellcasters can use their arcane rituals in peace.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    FWIW, Hackmaster somewhat addresses this by flattening the curve... a level 20 HM character is about on par with a level 10 AD&D character, or a level 7 WD&D character. Mundane skills have limits, and many skills are opposed checks, so your Rogue can't have a check that always succeeds... just one that usually succeeds.

    So, you still get the experience of moving forward, but each move is a smaller step than AD&D or WD&D.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    This question makes me think of the following article. A very interesting read. Enjoy!

    D&D Calibrating your Expectations

    Enjoy!

    Dizlag

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    Ultimately, because the powers and abilities of both the PCs and their foes at high level outstrip the conventions of the primary genres D&D takes inspiration from: sword & sorcery and its prettier cousin, high fantasy. Low-level play is practically a chapter out of a Fritz Lieber book, while high-level play gives the party far more powers, and more variety of powers (including setting-destabilizing ones), than are found in most high fantasy books (even ones where magic is commonplace, like Tamora Pierce novels).
    I think part of this comes from an early design standpoint to avoid placing thematic or cultural restrictions on the base classes (mage, fighter, and to a lesser extent cleric). Even the original name of the mage class, "magic-user," speaks to this design intent. Consequently, things from every fantasy book, every myth, end up being lumped into the abilities of few enough classes that the party can fill all the roles simultaneously.
    From a different thread I learned that some prefer high level "anima" style play rather than low level traditional Swords and Sorcery inspired stories.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanuki Tales View Post
    The point ultimately being that, no, not only DBZ is above 5th edition character representation when it comes to heroes in Eastern fiction. Eastern Fantasy is even more ludicrous, as the protagonists in Eastern mythology tend to fall hard on the demigod/god side of the equation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanuki Tales View Post
    Blue Lantern's post right below yours and Zman's right above yours holds my onerous with the community. It's 2016 and we're still dealing with Stormwind and "Weeaboo Fightin Magick".

    The community, as I've been exposed to it, gives me a rub that we should be happy playing SoIF characters and we need to go back to watching our Animooz if we want to play as Hercules or Samson or Cú Chulainn or Sun Wukong.

    Edit:

    In short, I feel like (from my exposure) that 5th edition is sliding the game and the community back to what I heard (and have seen) it was like back in 1e/2e days. I don't like that and it's not a community I want to be a part of.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Well I may very well be one of the "abrasive" poster's, when you express some strong opinions (i.e. "Cyberpunk is lame", "Swords and Sorcery rocks") than that is hard to avoid (also "abrasive" is just plain funnier) so sorry about that. While I bought 3e (and then was irked by first 3.5 & then 4e were released so soon afterward), I never found a chance to play it, and I've been curious to try since the "Inner Sea" setting looks interesting and while previously I felt that
    -snip-
    after reading in this thread what some say 3.P does "better", I'm reconsidering trying it since those aspects are what I don't like about 5e!
    That is I prefer something closer to the "Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser" stories I read, rather than the "Naruto" cartoons my son watches, plus I now quickly suffer from "options fatigue".
    While I've had "hella" fun playing 5e, it is not the perfect edition of D&D for me, because that edition doesn't exist.
    My ideal form of D&D would:
    1) Be as easy to learn and to create PC's as the 1977 "Basic" D&D rules were.
    2) Have as quick flowing combat as 5e has.
    3) The ability to make special "snowflake" PC's like 3.x D&D.
    4) Feel as intuitive to GM as early 1980's "Call of Cthullu".
    5) Have a "Ranger" class as awesome as the1e AD&D Ranger was.
    Since "perfect" D&D doesn't exist, the free 5e Basic Rules plus some of the extra rules in the PHB is "close enough for government work", and plenty fun for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanuki Tales View Post
    @ 2D8HP: Then you definitely want 5th edition or E6 3.P. That simulates the level of sword and sorcery you're looking for, while full blown 3.P quickly escalates into high end mythology where you're fighting unborn moons while throwing mountains and channeling a spell capable of nuking cities from your private demi-plane, while controlling your army of custom made supersoldiers.
    And that's it, low and high (or traditional D&D vs. D20) are different genre's.
    One is Howard and Leiber, the other is Myth and Wuxia. The transition from one to the other is jarring (also the more I learn of them D20 sounds as bad or worse to me than the much maligned 4e).
    For the types of Swords and Sorcery stories I like, I think oD&D was often better, and my ideal D&D would combine oD&D and 5e.
    Also the BRP'ish Stormbringer! game of the early 1980's often did Swords and Sorcery better than D&D, but it's flaw was that with its random generation method your PC was as likely to be a drooling begger as well as a mighty sorcerers or warrior, making many of the PC's "sidekicks". Perhaps something with Champions/GURPS style build points, and just get away from levels?
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    From a different thread I learned that some prefer high level "anima" style play rather than low level traditional Swords and Sorcery inspired stories.

    And that's it, low and high (or traditional D&D vs. D20) are different genre's.
    One is Howard and Leiber, the other is Myth and Wuxia. The transition from one to the other is jarring (also the more I learn of them D20 sounds as bad or worse to me than the much maligned 4e).
    For the types of Swords and Sorcery stories I like, I think oD&D was often better, and my ideal D&D would combine oD&D and 5e.
    Yes, but the question was about all editions of D&D, and the "bigger, flashier, cooler" crowd was much more influential in 3.5 and later than it was at the beginning. The problems with the system are legacy-preserved and predate that bunch.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    That high-level D&D supports a different genre than low levels do was never in question. The problem being discussed here is that high-level rules don't work for the power level they imply. Or at all. It's also arguable how much of the power increase was predicted and intended by the designers.
    Last edited by Morty; 2016-08-03 at 03:32 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    I think part of the issue (as far as I understand it) is that D&D grew out of the house-rules of a bunch of gamers whose original campaign characters (Bigby, Mordankainen et al) were magic-users, and a lot of the mechanics kind of assume that it will be the wizards who will be the world-shakers and shapers. That doesn't fit with much of other fantasy literature sources, where martial and roguish types have more ability to do the heroic deeds that change the world (often by killing the wizard overlord). If you look at core things that define D&D, I would say that amongst them are the D20 die roll vs AC for the to-hit mechanic, Fighters getting +1 to hit per level, and casters getting a new spell level every odd level, with fireball and lightning bolt at level 3 and teleport and cloudkill at 5. Even with the differential XP requirements in 2nd Ed, linear martials and exponential casters is sufficiently hard-baked into D&D that if one were to try, say, giving full casters bardic spell progression, the game would be unrecognisable as D&D.
    Another issue in my mind is the advent of cRPGs and the internet. I played tabletop D&D for much of the early part of my teens, and getting a character above 5th level was a pretty rare occurrence, either because the campaign was too deadly or the DM had a better idea and wanted to start again. Between reloading after character deaths and replaying after a TPK, there's an assumption that the player will eventually complete and win a cRPG, and generally that means advancing characters to the limits of the (limited, compared to ttRPG) advancement and power available. This perhaps creates an expectation that if you create a wizard, he will be able, at some point, to cast, quickened stinking clouds and contingencies and the rest. Even early level weaknesses are avoided by the likes of abrupt jaunt. Any difficulties in squeezing maximal power out of a build can be overcome by a quick trip to the playground for advice from experts in optimisation.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    I haven't seen this one mentioned yet: resurrection. At low levels, failing in a quest can mean death. At low levels, that's the end of that character's story, and the player rolls up a new one. Death matters. Once raising dead characters becomes an option, then you can't threaten the characters with death like you used to. Instead of "if you fail, you die" being a motivator, it becomes "fail, and the undead hordes overrun the kingdom". Once that happens, you're telling a different story than you were, one that's about grand strategy and logistics instead of the people at first level.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    This seems to me to be primarily an issue of the numbers no longer matching up with the expected story and setting. I wouldn't call it a mechanical flaw as you could move on to more dangerous environments. But when it leads to players being unhappy with how their story progresses that's still a problem with game design.
    The issue with this is continuity. That the world described at level 1 and level 15 are supposed to be the same world but do not feel that way-one is a world of tracking dried rations, torches, and putting a piece of steel through a goblin that a farming family could kill themselves but not without getting hurt...thee later involves hell beasts, dragons, magical devices etc. . . The effects of the later world are disruptive to the former even if they are not exactly overlapping in physical space.

    As for why the transition to building your keep at tenth level (which was treated as assume/forced in some books) never caught on is that while historically "the best fighter becomes leader" was basically true the definition of fighter was broader in that by 4-6th level much of their duties. Would be small group battles that most D&D doesn't cover. Thus the switch can seem unnatural in the game. Yes. It is basically two different games but really it should have been three, they just dropped the middle one.

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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_S View Post
    I haven't seen this one mentioned yet: resurrection. At low levels, failing in a quest can mean death. At low levels, that's the end of that character's story, and the player rolls up a new one. Death matters. Once raising dead characters becomes an option, then you can't threaten the characters with death like you used to. Instead of "if you fail, you die" being a motivator, it becomes "fail, and the undead hordes overrun the kingdom". Once that happens, you're telling a different story than you were, one that's about grand strategy and logistics instead of the people at first level.
    yes i think this is a very important insight.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    In my experience with 4e the game began to crack in the mid paragon levels (15+) and was truly broken in low epic (22+). I've both played and DM'd Epic 4e games and the mechanics just end up getting in the way, there's do much stuff that your character has in terms of powers, items, features and at those levels it all starts to become unwieldy. I have enjoyed those tiers of play in 4e, but they are not the strong point of the system (that'd be Heroic and low Paragon).

    By contrast, my 5e experience has been really good at all levels of play. My RL group just hit 19th level and none of us feel the crushing weight of character options that we did on 4e at equivalent levels. In our experience the game remains balanced between characters within the party and fights don't drag on for hours like in 4e.
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutazoia View Post
    How many of TSRs other RPG's can you even recall, with out resorting to Google?
    Um...so not the point of the thread, but I remember:

    • Top Secret
    • Gamma World
    • Boot Hill
    • Star Frontiers
    • Marvel Super Heroes
    • Indiana Jones (or was it Raiders of the Lost Ark?)


    Gotta be more than that...

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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutazoia View Post
    How many of TSRs other RPG's can you even recall, with out resorting to Google?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    Um...so not the point of the thread, but I remember:....
    • DUNGEON! (Boardgame)
    • Warlocks and Warriors (Boardgame)
    • Buck Rogers
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    The simple answer might be that the creators of D&D don't have the ability to look ahead. But then, even if they could they would still need to ''think like a gamer'', and most can't do that anyway. They would also need to see the rules as more ''rules for an alternate reality'' and not ''some rules to just adventure with'', but few can do that.

    Ultimately it might just be harsh reality. A 1-20 system would take lots of work, time, rules and most of all insight. But the publisher just ''wants to toss a game out there and make some money''. And more ''reality rules'' and ''high level play rules'' would have added pages. And the books are big as it is....and expensive enough too.

    The old basic/expert/companion/master/immortal sets might be the best leveled D&D.

  16. - Top - End - #46

    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    They put a lot of effort into making the ''basic'' game, that is levels 1-5. They put a tiny bit of thought into 5-10, but then they just stop. You notice how there are fewer high level everythings...abilities, spells, items....everything.

    As some one who has played a lot of spellcasters I've always been annoyed when I get a high level spellcaster that specializes in a type of magic...and they have two whole spells at a level I can pick from.....

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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    Gotta be more than that...

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    There is!

    • Dawn Patrol
    • Metamorphosis Alpha
    • Gangbusters
    • Top Secret SSI


    And yes, ALL from memory!
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  18. - Top - End - #48

    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    The basic mindset of D&D is that you will only play a character for a limited time. A character will start off small, adventure, and then end with a big climax.

    Like levels 1-5 are Basic: the character is just learning the ropes, 6-10 the character is an expert and they are right in their prime. But after 10th they are a master, and a bit too powerful for mundane things. And this is even more true with 15th level plus of grandmaster.

    It is easy to see a 1-10th level character doing thinks like opening locked doors, sneaking past guards and fighting minions. But after 10th level it becomes a bit awkward. A master character does not feel right doing such mundane things like opening a door. And there is only a slight window where a high level character might ''pick open the gates of Hell'', but you really can't do that more then once.

    D&D just does not scale up much past that level of power. It is easy to see in just characters as they could not think of a high level abilities for most classes. The same way there are only a few higher level feats, spells, magic items and just about everything else.

    And that is how the creators see it, and designed the game.

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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalelf View Post
    There is!

    • Dawn Patrol
    • Metamorphosis Alpha
    • Gangbusters
    • Top Secret SSI


    And yes, ALL from memory!
    Top Secret was the top of my list...but I can't believe I forgot Gangbusters!

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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Fall apart? It's just making the jump from good to excellent.

    Assuming no cheese. (mainly summons Wishes or unlimited wealth tricks)

    Teleport is a thing, but it's awkward. The Cleric can manage to bust out one Heal, but not chain them. The melee types are just getting to where their feats/ability chains are coming online, and they have enough spare cash to get some cool bonuses on their weapon. The Paladin is thinking that if he sold everything he owned, he could maybe afford that Holy Avenger, even if it wouldn't be practical for a few more levels.

    And look at what you get to face. Real demons, devils, vampires, adult dragons, groups of fire giants, the kraken, really big hydras, purple worms, a lich or ghost with a bunch of class levels, and all the other iconic creatures.

    The DM gets to give out iconic treasures without blowing up his game. A big flying carpet. A few Wishes at the end of a quest. Etc.

    Some of the best classic modules fall right in that range. Tomb of Horrors. Against the Giants. Barrier Peak.


    For me, the game doesn't come apart until 9th level spells are common. That means if you did some cheesy stuff to get them at L13, you broke the game, but it should really be L18 or so.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Unlike a lot in this thread my experience is mainly with 3.5 or Pathfinder.
    I haven't managed to take a game past level 8, I don't think this is to do with the game falling apart more to do with the players getting bored of their characters and wanting to try something else.

    I guess a simple way for me to test this is start a game at lvl 10 and see how long it lasts.
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Pippa the Pixie View Post
    They put a lot of effort into making the ''basic'' game, that is levels 1-5. They put a tiny bit of thought into 5-10, but then they just stop. You notice how there are fewer high level everythings...abilities, spells, items....everything.

    As some one who has played a lot of spellcasters I've always been annoyed when I get a high level spellcaster that specializes in a type of magic...and they have two whole spells at a level I can pick from.....
    That's a lot of it. Actually, it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. They don't put a lot of resources into supporting high-level play, since nobody plays at high level. And because there's very little support for high-level play, nobody plays at high level.

    Most of the rest is the increasing complexity. As players (and GMs) get more resources, they wind up combining in unforeseen ways, and there are more decision points to make. While you still have the same number of actions (most likely), the number of choices about what to do with your action go up substantially, as well as the effort involved.

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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    I posted the following in a different thread, but since it seems to fit:

    Quite true, high level and low level D&D play are not the same.
    Recently this Forum has had threads by those who don't like high levels:
    Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level
    Those who like high level "Naruto/Wuxia"" style adventures, and prefer 3.5 because of that:
    Sell me on 5th edition
    And those that simply hate low levels
    Roleplaying level one
    I think it's a strength that D&D can accommodate different power levels, but if players & DM's enjoy those different levels is another matter.
    While going "Dragonslaying" has appeal, I (for example) usually retire PC''s at around 5th level, others may start at even higher levels. To each their own, but it may be a more noticible problem now because (at least with 5e) PC's level up much faster than they used to! This makes the transition from low to high levels harder to acclimate to. IIRC it used to take at least three times as much "table-time" to "level up", as it used to. But don't just take my word for it, let's see what a co-creator of D&D wrote about level progression:
    Quote Originally Posted by April 1976 issue of the Strategic Review


    D&D IS ONLY AS

    GOOD AS THE DM

    by Gary Gygax


    Successful play of D & D is a blend of desire, skill and luck. Desire is often
    initiated by actually participating in a game. It is absolutely a reflection of the
    referee’s ability to maintain an interesting and challenging game. Skill is a blend
    of knowledge of the rules and game background as applied to the particular game
    circumstances favored by the referee. Memory or recall is often a skill function.
    Luck is the least important of the three, but it is a factor in successful play
    nonetheless. Using the above criteria it would seem that players who have attained
    a score or more of levels in their respective campaigns are successful indeed. This
    is generally quite untrue. Usually such meteoric rise simply reflects an in-
    competent Dungeonmaster.
    While adventurers in a D & D campaign must grade their play to their
    referee, it is also incumbent upon the Dungeonmaster to suit his campaign to the
    participants. This interaction is absolutely necessary if the campaign is to con-
    tinue to be of interest to all parties. It is often a temptation to the referee to turn
    his dungeons into a veritable gift shoppe of magical goodies, ripe for plucking by
    his players. Similarly, by a bit of fudging, outdoor expeditions become trips to the
    welfare department for heaps of loot. Monsters exist for the slaying of the ad-
    venturers — whether of the sort who “guard” treasure, or of the wandering
    variety. Experience points are heaped upon the undeserving heads of players,
    levels accumulate like dead leaves in autumn, and if players with standings in the
    20’s, 30’s and 40’s of levels do not become bored, they typically become filled with
    an entirely false sense of accomplishment, they are puffed up with hubris. As they
    have not really earned their standings, and their actual ability has no reflection on
    their campaign level, they are easily deflated (killed) in a game which demands
    competence in proportionate measure to players’ levels.
    It is, therefore, time that referees reconsider their judging. First, is magic ac-
    tually quite scarce in your dungeons? It should be! Likewise, treasures should be
    proportionate both to the levels of the dungeon and the monsters guarding them.
    Second, absolute disinterest must be exercised by the Dungeonmaster, and if a
    favorite player stupidly puts himself into a situation where he is about to be killed,
    let the dice tell the story and KILL him. This is not to say that you should never
    temper chance with a bit of “Divine Intervention,” but helping players should be a
    rare act on the referee’s part, and the action should only be taken when fate seems
    to have unjustly condemned an otherwise good player, and then not in every cir-
    cumstance should the referee intervene. Third, create personas for the inhabitants
    of your dungeon — if they are intelligent they would act cleverly to preserve them-
    selves and slay intruding expeditions out to do them in and steal their treasures.
    The same is true for wandering monsters. Fourth, there should be some high-level,
    very tricky and clever chaps in the nearest inhabitation to the dungeon, folks who
    skin adventures out of their wealth just as prospectors were generally fleeced for
    their gold in the Old West. When the campaign turkies flock to town trying to buy
    magical weapons, potions, scrolls, various other items of magical nature, get a
    chum turned back to flesh, have a corpse resurrected, or whatever, make them pay
    through their proverbial noses. For example, what would a player charge for like
    items or services? Find out, add a good bit, and that is the cost you as referee will
    make your personas charge. This will certainly be entertaining to you, and laying
    little traps in addition will keep the players on their collective toes. After all,Dungeonmasters are entitled to a little fun too! Another point to remember is that
    you should keep a strict account of time. The wizard who spends six months
    writing scrolls and enchanting items is OUT of the campaign for six months, he
    cannot play during these six game months, and if the time system is anywhere
    reflective of the proper scale that means a period of actual time in the neigh-
    borhood of three months. That will pretty well eliminate all that sort of
    foolishness. Ingredients for scroll writing and potion making should also be
    stipulated (we will treat this in an upcoming issue of SR or in a D & D supplement
    as it should be dealt with at length) so that it is no easy task to prepare scrolls or
    duplicate potions.
    When players no longer have reams of goodies at their fingertips they must
    use their abilities instead, and as you will have made your dungeons and wilder-
    nesses far more difficult and demanding, it will require considerable skill,
    imagination, and intellectual exercise to actually gain from the course of an ad-
    venture. Furthermore, when magic is rare it is valuable, and only if it is scarce
    will there be real interest in seeking it. When it is difficult to survive, a long
    process to gain levels, when there are many desired items of magical nature to seek
    for, then a campaign is interesting and challenging. Think about how much fun it
    is to have something handed to you on a silver platter — nice once in a while but
    unappreciated when it becomes common occurrence. This analogy applies to ex-
    perience and treasure in the D & D campaign.
    It requires no careful study to determine that D & D is aimed at progression
    which is geared to the approach noted above. There are no monsters to challenge
    the capabilities of 30th level lords, 40th level patriarchs, and so on. Now I know of
    the games played at CalTech where the rules have been expanded and changed to
    reflect incredibly high levels, comic book characters and spells, and so on. Okay.
    Different strokes for different folks, but that is not D & D. While D & D is pretty
    flexible, that sort of thing stretches it too far, and the boys out there are playing
    something entirely different — perhaps their own name “Dungeons & Beavers,”
    tells it best. It is reasonable to calculate that if a fair player takes part in 50 to 75
    games in the course of a year he should acquire sufficient experience points to
    make him about 9th to 11th level, assuming that he manages to survive all that
    play. The acquisition of successively higher levels will be proportionate to enhanced
    power and the number of experience points necessary to attain them, so another
    year of play will by no means mean a doubling of levels but rather the addition of
    perhaps two or three levels. Using this gauge, it should take four or five years to
    see 20th level. As BLACKMOOR is the only campaign with a life of five years, and
    GREYHAWK with a life of four is the second longest running campaign, the most
    able adventurers should not yet have attained 20th level except in the two named
    campaigns. To my certain knowledge no player in either BLACKMOOR or
    GREYHAWK has risen above 14th level.
    By requiring players to work for experience, to earn their treasure, means that
    the opportunity to retain interest will remain. It will also mean that the rules will
    fit the existing situation, a dragon, balrog, or whatever will be a fearsome
    challenge rather than a pushover. It is still up to the Dungeonmaster to make the
    campaign really interesting to his players by adding imaginative touches, through
    exertion to develop background and detailed data regarding the campaign, and to
    make certain that there is always something new and exciting to learn about or
    acquire. It will, however, be an easier task. So if a 33rd level wizard reflects a
    poorly managed campaign, a continuing mortality rate of 50% per expedition
    generally reflects over-reaction and likewise a poorly managed campaign. It is
    unreasonable to place three blue dragons on the first dungeon level, just as
    unreasonable as it is to allow a 10th level fighter to rampage through the upper
    levels of a dungeon rousting kobolds and giant rats to gain easy loot and ex-
    perience. When you tighten up your refereeing be careful not to go too far the other way.
    Extended Sig
    D&D Alignment history
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    Does the game you play feature a Dragon sitting on a pile of treasure, in a Dungeon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    You're an NPC stat block."I remember when your race was your class you damned whippersnappers"
    Snazzy Avatar by Honest Tiefling!

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Morty's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    D&D can't accommodate different power levels. That's the whole ticket here. It claims to do so, but it doesn't. Different editions have different breaking points, but it always happens. "The DM needs to decide" is a non-answer with about as much meaning as your average marketing slogan. The person running the game always needs to adjust and make judgements of some sort. But the system is supposed to cooperate with them on it.
    Last edited by Morty; 2016-08-29 at 04:35 PM.
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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    D&D can't accommodate different power levels. That's the whole ticket here. It claims to do so, but it doesn't. Different editions have different breaking points, but it always happens. "The DM needs to decide" is a non-answer with about as much meaning as your average marketing slogan. The person running the game always needs to adjust and make judgements of some sort. But the system is supposed to cooperate with them on it.
    I wouldn't say that D&D makes particular claims that it accommodates different power levels (certainly no outright claims that it does so effectively), but it has always been arranged to ALLOW vastly different power levels with the same characters and same campaign over time. It DOESN'T manage this shift in power levels at all well. It never even warns you that it can/will occur. It just IS how it is and it's pretty much always been left for the individual participants to know about it beforehand or learn it the hard way.

    "The DM needs to decide," is, however, a perfectly valid answer. The DM always does decide, as you say, even in a system which keeps PC's much closer within the same power range from the start to finish of a campaign. In ANY game (whether it's D&D or something else) it is possible for PC's to exceed the expected range of power that the DM is prepared for. The DM then either needs to escalate from his side so that opponents and challenges begin to match the PC's greater capabilities, or else take steps to REDUCE PC power to whatever is more manageable. Most games don't really allow for the latter. In D&D you could destroy some magic items and reduce PC power that way, but that will only go so far. For most practical purposes if a D&D game gets into a power scale that the DM doesn't like or can't handle you don't have much option but to just start over with a new game, or at least new PC's. That tends to be unsatisfying for everybody.

    Is it supposed to cooperate to allow tweaking power levels? It would be better if it did, but it really doesn't and never has. Prior to 3E there's almost no tools except experience to help a DM make judgement calls about the game's power level. 3E made use of a "Challenge Rating" system for helping to adjust the power level of encounters to the abilities of the PC's, but it's still just a TOOL and not a FORMULA that guarantees any consistent results. There are simply too many variables to make it practical.

    But the idea of what D&D really is and how it is meant to be played has actually changed A LOT since it was first published. Early on it was not really thought of as a roleplaying game at all. It was a dungeon exploration game which differed from other wargames that it was derived from by focusing on one or two individual persona for each player rather than large military units. It wasn't until AD&D (1E) was published that actual roleplaying was being emphasized at all, but it was still heavily an "action" game with individual characters rather than military groups, and lots of reference to the presence of large military groups within the game can still be seen. 2E de-emphasized the military angle even more and played up the individual character more. With 3E it had become ALL about the individual PC and in fact the game was designed NOT around roleplaying so much (though it was still there) but promoted that the idea of D&D was that the FUN was to be found in building the most powerful, effective individual character that you could and becoming experienced and knowledgeable enough about the rules to do so. It became as much or more a game of individual achievement in character construction as roleplaying and cooperation with other players and their PC's for survival. Certainly it was the aspect of individual character design that the rules revolved around and it was those rules that WotC emphasized over everything else. That and the details of tactical combat rules.

    That doesn't mean 3E was BadWrongFun. It just means that it was now quite different from what the game once had been. But much of the general rules structure was largely unchanged. Characters still began at 1st and with each level gained better ability to hit, absorb damage, etc and that meant that the same shift in power occurs in the game DESPITE the considerable change in what the gameplay was supposed to be focused around.

    Think of it this way: At first level you have 1 HD. At 10th level you're gonna have 10 HD (along with various other increases in basic power that are somewhat parallel to HD.) People don't think about it much but that means that a character has TEN TIMES the damage absorption that he had when he first started. That applies whether your HD were d4's or d12's. Not everything about combat scales equally during that time but it's easily seen that this means a HUGE shift in what actually will challenge the character. Monsters and situations that were a challenge at 1st are no challenge whatever at 10th - by a factor of nearly ten. You either KNOW that about the game and take steps as DM accordingly - or you learn it the hard way and end up dealing with it in any case. You can embrace the power shift. You can do your best to try to ignore it. You can make changes to render it as ineffective as possible, such as by continuing to scale up challenges in an equal manner rather than leaving them with relatively fixed numbers.

    "The DM decides," isn't just a valid answer - it's pretty much the only answer.

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Quote Originally Posted by D+1 View Post
    Early on it was not really thought of as a roleplaying game at all. It was a dungeon exploration game which differed from other wargames that it was derived from by focusing on one or two individual persona for each player rather than large military units. It wasn't until AD&D (1E) was published that actual roleplaying was being emphasized at all, but it was still heavily an "action" game with individual characters rather than military groups, and lots of reference to the presence of large military groups within the game can still be seen.
    Eh.... I don't think that I'd agree with that.

    Yes, it switched from being primarily a dungeon exploration game to being one more about "stories", but I really don't think that makes one or the other more or less a "roleplaying" game.

    The essence of roleplaying, to me, is:

    "You're in this situation, what do you do?"
    "I do this!"

    What the situation is specifically is fairly irrelevant.

    What is true is that the game became less specialized over time, or at least specialized in different areas.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    Yes, it switched from being primarily a dungeon exploration game to being one more about "stories", but I really don't think that makes one or the other more or less a "roleplaying" game.
    I think the characters are very important to role-playing. If I may paraphrase what you said:

    The essence of roleplaying, to me, is:

    "Your character in this situation, what do you do?"
    "S/he does this!"

    In fact the separation between you and your character is a very significant difference between role-playing games and every other type of game there is. ... I also think that most CRPGs are actually mislabelled, but there you have it.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    I would definately second that it is because it started as a collection of house rules to handle dungeon crawls. There was never any real coherent design behind the original setup. For example, the magic system is entirely seperate from the combat system. The skill system is bolted on seperately again, and hacked together at best. The concepts are not properly defined, giving you such results as power attacks being less likely to get through armour, and elephants being some of the best animals at dodging things. There is also an abundance of absolute effects with specific defenses, and very rarely is there trade offs. For example, there is no "obscure vision" spell line applying scaling penalties, there is simply "blindness". Iron heart surge like effects are much needed to avoid christmas trees of items against every shut down effect. Ideally there should be some cost to the defender that depends on the power of the effect, but the system is not set up to facilitate that. By the time you get past level 10 the system is a mess.

    Special mention goes to black tentacles, which creates magically invincible nonmagical tentacles that hit even if a god gives you an AC of 'no' (+100 sacred bonus), then grapple without following the grapple rules... Why!?

    Basically the system was built outwards from wizards on a dungeon crawl without much planning, so the parts don't line up. This gets more extreme the further from 'basic' you get: ie, higher level.
    I play dwarf mode: Play to win, never be sober, and always die horribly despite everyone's best efforts (DM included).

    I have a blog now! I make no claims to be that fool on that hill, but I do like to think I think the same way. Check it out for some of my more nutty thoughts.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    "Your character in this situation, what do you do?"
    "S/he does this!"
    Sure, the character was implied, if you feel better making it explicit, go for it :D

    THough really, that's just one of the common roleplaying patterns. There's roleplaying games that don't really use that interaction pattern.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why do almost all editions of D&D fall apart around 10th level

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    Sure, the character was implied, if you feel better making it explicit, go for it :D

    THough really, that's just one of the common roleplaying patterns. There's roleplaying games that don't really use that interaction pattern.
    To kyoryu: I feel it is an important distinction, so I guess I do feel better if it is explicit. What are the other "patterns" used in other role-playing games? Reacting to a changing situation, and hence effecting the situation, seems to be the minimum for interaction. I'm not sure how far you can get from that.

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