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  1. - Top - End - #301
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by BayardSPSR View Post
    I want to second this recommendation as a reading exercise at minimum - the PbtA family is pretty revolutionary in RPG-design terms, and changed the way I think about a lot of things as a GM, a player, and a designer. The family is also reliably thematically-grounded, which makes imagining play pretty intuitive. I recommend also examining Fate Core, for contrast, as a "generic" system (if "generic" means "centered on the actions of larger-than life people with the feel of movie characters") that can be picked up as-is and applied to an enormous diversity of premises without any need to hack it.

    Neither game is actually to my taste as a GM or player, but both have been wonderful sources of paradigm-shifting stuff to think about for me. As has BW, to an extent.
    Ill take the recommendation, is there a specific version I should read first?
    Likewise do very many people play it? or Is it in the "you'll have to teach it if you want to play it" category like BW is.
    I think ultimatly Id end up with Tzeentch...something tells me wed have MAD RPG's with that guy...Seriously...hed have like...400 campaigns preplanned before I got there....Its not Railroading if he knows ALL your choices :P

  2. - Top - End - #302
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    Planetar

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by profitofrage View Post
    Ill take the recommendation, is there a specific version I should read first?
    Likewise do very many people play it? or Is it in the "you'll have to teach it if you want to play it" category like BW is.
    I've played in PbtA games run by other people, and some friends of mine are running a Fate campaign right now, but that may not be representative of the population at large. I've never needed to teach either to people, though, and I've found both of them pretty intuitive to learn.

    For versions, Fate Core has a pay-what-you want PDF, but that's the only version I've read, so others may be preferable. I don't have the Apocalypse World or Dungeon World books, but I've heard the former recommended as The Perfect Design of its creator, and the latter recommended as being more readable and accessible. I'm not the best authority on this, though.

  3. - Top - End - #303
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by BayardSPSR View Post
    I want to second this recommendation as a reading exercise at minimum
    I will say - while I find the concepts interesting, I couldn't get through the core Apocalypse World book. The writing is terrible. It feels like it's written by a less literate version of the kid from The Catcher in the Rye (which I consider to be one of the most overrated books of all time).
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2016-08-12 at 07:16 AM. Reason: spelling correction

  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    I will say - while I find the concepts interesting, I couldn't get through the core Apocalypse World book. The writing is terrible. It feels like it's written by a less literate version of the kid from The Catcher in the Rye (which I consider to be one of the most overrated books of all time).
    I'm not sure declaring a much-beloved book from the canon as overrated helps you make your point, but this is obviously pure opinion that.. isn't even criticism. It's just a statement of dislike and then a weird insult.

    Not really much of a constructive addition to the conversation.

  5. - Top - End - #305
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    I'm not sure declaring a much-beloved book from the canon as overrated helps you make your point, but this is obviously pure opinion that.. isn't even criticism. It's just a statement of dislike and then a weird insult.

    Not really much of a constructive addition to the conversation.
    It's just pointing out that if you dislike The Catcher in the Rye (I'm certainly not alone there) then you likely won't like to reading Apocalypse World. I don't think that someone is a bad person for liking Salinger's writings, but it's not a universal opinion.

  6. - Top - End - #306
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    I've heard a lot of complaints about the writing style in Apocalypse World, but I've never read it myself. Maybe the 2nd edition will be less grating for the people it bothers. There are still a number of extremely well written and easy to follow games using that engine, so the suggestion that folks should read some still stands.

  7. - Top - End - #307
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by profitofrage View Post
    Ill take the recommendation, is there a specific version I should read first?
    Likewise do very many people play it? or Is it in the "you'll have to teach it if you want to play it" category like BW is.
    For PbtA, I'd recommend Apocalypse World itself first, or Monster of the Week if that's more to your taste. (the writing style on AW is definitely polarizing, and the existence of the sex moves just bugs some folks).

    For Fate Core, you can get all of the core .pdfs (Fate Core, Fate Accelerated, and teh System Toolkit) on a pay-what-you-want basis. When I couldn't get BW to work, I switched to Fate, and found it much easier to get going. There can be a bit of 'square peg round hole' stuff in Fate Core, and I humbly suggest the "Book of Hanz" for some guidance on some of the things that might work subtly different than they appear.

    It, and the excellent Olaf vs. The Orcs sample situation both are available at http://www.evilhat.com/home/fate-core-downloads/
    Last edited by kyoryu; 2016-08-12 at 11:37 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #308
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    I find the sex moves stop bugging people if you just change "sex" to "a moment of significant physical or emotional intimacy."

    It changes the dynamic in a way that makes people much more comfortable with the concept. (There's a hack that does this called Apocalypse World Lite, I believe.)

    As for the writing style, it is certainly not purely technical, and Baker makes an active attempt to be evocative, since it's meant to be part of the teaching. One of the principals is to Barf Forth Apocalyptica, and the book does that. *shrug* So you'll get a lot of descriptions that are not strictly mechanical but explain how things should feel. For instance the Brainer description is less clear about the function than about the feel, but there is a more mechanical paragraph right after. All the technical is in there and is written fine. It just depends on whether or not evocative description applied liberally all over the place. (I doubt a Burning Wheel fan woulf object, Tbh.)

  9. - Top - End - #309
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    (Keep in mind that *I* don't have issues with those things, but I've run into a number of folks that do.)

    Also, IIRC, there's a certain amount of leeway in the "special" moves in that they typically refer to intimacy, which can be interpreted several ways.

  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Planetar

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    I will say - while I find the concepts interesting, I couldn't get through the core Apocalypse World book. The writing is terrible. It feels like it's written by a less literate version of the kid from The Catcher in the Rye (which I consider to be one of the most overrated books of all time).
    In that case, I will shift my emphasis to Dungeon World, which I have been told is far better presented.

  11. - Top - End - #311
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    CarpeGuitarrem's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    I find the sex moves stop bugging people if you just change "sex" to "a moment of significant physical or emotional intimacy."

    It changes the dynamic in a way that makes people much more comfortable with the concept. (There's a hack that does this called Apocalypse World Lite, I believe.)
    It also shows up as the default approach in the PbtA game Urban Shadows.
    Ludicrus Gaming: on games and story
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  12. - Top - End - #312
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by BayardSPSR View Post
    In that case, I will shift my emphasis to Dungeon World, which I have been told is far better presented.
    Monster of the Week is also pretty awesome. I think it does a better job of capturing the "core PbtA ethos" than DW does.

  13. - Top - End - #313
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    Monster of the Week is also pretty awesome. I think it does a better job of capturing the "core PbtA ethos" than DW does.
    Ok so I am a tad confused, are we talking about the same game anymore? or is it a core system with multiple derivatives? like Mouseguard is to BW, or Black crusade is to Dark Heresy?

    You have all peaked my interest in the game either way :P
    I think ultimatly Id end up with Tzeentch...something tells me wed have MAD RPG's with that guy...Seriously...hed have like...400 campaigns preplanned before I got there....Its not Railroading if he knows ALL your choices :P

  14. - Top - End - #314
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by profitofrage View Post
    Ok so I am a tad confused, are we talking about the same game anymore? or is it a core system with multiple derivatives? like Mouseguard is to BW, or Black crusade is to Dark Heresy?

    You have all peaked my interest in the game either way :P
    PbtA means Powered by the Apocalypse, meaning games that are hacks/reskins/reimaginings of the game Apocalypse World.

    It is like all those d20 System games that came out by Wizards that were basically "D&D but actually ___."

    They're all different systems, but the core of them is the same.

  15. - Top - End - #315

    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by profitofrage View Post
    Ok so I am a tad confused, are we talking about the same game anymore? or is it a core system with multiple derivatives? like Mouseguard is to BW, or Black crusade is to Dark Heresy?

    You have all peaked my interest in the game either way :P
    Apocalypse World was the original game. There have since been a bunch of games powered using the same rough engine called the Powered by the Apocalypse Engine games handling various different subjects.

  16. - Top - End - #316
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Ok, so assuming I look up and read Apocalypse World, Ill have everything I need to understand all the other systems.
    I think ultimatly Id end up with Tzeentch...something tells me wed have MAD RPG's with that guy...Seriously...hed have like...400 campaigns preplanned before I got there....Its not Railroading if he knows ALL your choices :P

  17. - Top - End - #317
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by profitofrage View Post
    Ok, so assuming I look up and read Apocalypse World, Ill have everything I need to understand all the other systems.
    More or less, yeah. The good ones tend to teach the core principals again, but yes.

    If you read Apocalypse World, you'll understand how the others work.

  18. - Top - End - #318

    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    You'll have the rough framework. They can be pretty different games, though.

  19. - Top - End - #319
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    You'll have the rough framework. They can be pretty different games, though.
    Mhm. In the same sense that if you know generally how compustion engines work, you can understand both Ford and Honda engines despite differences in their specific designs/additional features.

  20. - Top - End - #320
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    CarpeGuitarrem's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Yeah; the rules are all structured the same procedurally, but they get used in very different ways. Apocalypse World, being the first, has seen a ton of derivatives, and they've all worked to advance the core engine in some way, generally by adding or tweaking something.

    But the core dice mechanic, as well as the approach to GMing, is almost identical between games. It's a skeleton that other games get built around.
    Ludicrus Gaming: on games and story
    Quote Originally Posted by Saph
    Unless everyone's been lying to me and the next bunch of episodes are The Great Divide II, The Great Divide III, Return to the Great Divide, and Bride of the Great Divide, in which case I hate you all and I'm never touching Avatar again.

  21. - Top - End - #321
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    What in your opinion is the best "version" to start reading?
    I think ultimatly Id end up with Tzeentch...something tells me wed have MAD RPG's with that guy...Seriously...hed have like...400 campaigns preplanned before I got there....Its not Railroading if he knows ALL your choices :P

  22. - Top - End - #322
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by profitofrage View Post
    What in your opinion is the best "version" to start reading?
    I'd say Monster of the Week. Apocalypse World is coming out with a new edition this fall, and as such doesn't seem to be available in most places I've checked...

  23. - Top - End - #323
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by SirBellias View Post
    I'd say Monster of the Week. Apocalypse World is coming out with a new edition this fall, and as such doesn't seem to be available in most places I've checked...
    It's still available in the online digital version which is 10 or 15 bucks and comes with all the limited edition playbooks printable in Letter or Legal paper sizes.

  24. - Top - End - #324
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by profitofrage View Post
    What in your opinion is the best "version" to start reading?
    Monster of the Week is pretty much awesome. Evil Hat did the revised version, and they do a fan-flipping-tastic job of PDFs.

    You can't go wrong with the original Apocalypse World, still, however. THe only drawback is some find the writing style and profanity levels to be off-putting.
    Last edited by kyoryu; 2016-08-15 at 12:43 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #325
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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    As for the writing style, it is certainly not purely technical, and Baker makes an active attempt to be evocative, since it's meant to be part of the teaching.
    Stolze was also involved, and he tends to editorialize - some people are put off by that. Others consider it a big plus; I'm definitely in the latter category.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

    I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that.
    -- ChubbyRain

    Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.

  26. - Top - End - #326
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    CarpeGuitarrem's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Burning Wheel dead? What systems do YOU think should be played more!

    Quote Originally Posted by profitofrage View Post
    What in your opinion is the best "version" to start reading?
    Urban Shadows would be my pick. It's evocative, very directed, and incredibly well put-together. Monsterhearts would also be one I'd recommend, but only if you're okay with the more adult-oriented content (it's inspired by urban fantasy romances).
    Ludicrus Gaming: on games and story
    Quote Originally Posted by Saph
    Unless everyone's been lying to me and the next bunch of episodes are The Great Divide II, The Great Divide III, Return to the Great Divide, and Bride of the Great Divide, in which case I hate you all and I'm never touching Avatar again.

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