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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by ViscountGrey View Post
    I think ChillerInstinct, and certainly I was in an earlier post, is working from the basis that at some point in the past the gates were created - the reasons they were made as gates and not as walls is unfathomable, lost to the mists of time.
    I'm not sure they really *are* gates in terms of "can be opened". They were constructed to shore up the weak points in reality where the rifts are, not with any intention of them being used for evil purposes; that was just an unhappy side-effect. It's like Dorukan and Lirian fixed a weak wall by sticking plastic explosive in the gaps--it unquestionably *worked*, but someone with a blasting cap comes along and suddenly you have a big problem.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    NinjaGirl

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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by ViscountGrey View Post
    I think ChillerInstinct, and certainly I was in an earlier post, is working from the basis that at some point in the past the gates were created - the reasons they were made as gates and not as walls is unfathomable, lost to the mists of time. It is logical to assume that those who created the gates knew about a set of circumstances which may require the gates to be opened, and therefore built in that possibility. Those coming afterwards can only work on the knowledge that what is behind the gates can destroy the world and therefore fortify them as much as possible - preferably with defences that would still be up and running were you to die / get killed - but still leave open the possibility of opening the gates based on an unknown, but existing requirement.

    We call these the "known unknowns" - things we don't know, but that we know we don't know. In project management the approach is to take these into account and build in a certain amount of flexibility for a time when the unknowns may become knowns.
    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Which I believe is DaggerPen's point, in the event that the known unknown occurs and ChillerInstinct needs to access the gate the protections they have on accessing it will mean that they cannot unless they get multiple groups of multiple alignment people working together and willing to sacrifice themselves - unless they have a backdoor, which than could be exploited by others (Dorukan's backdoor was the bypass for pure of heart, ChillerInstinct would likely need a backdoor for the backdoor if they wanted to access the Gate).

    Frankly if you are going the route they laid out I imagine most people trying to assault your gate will merely bypass the protections via dispel magic, break enchantment, mordenkainen's disjunction or use magic device combined with disarming device (to avoid the fatal elements).
    Dancrilis partially got it, but I think you're sticking a bit on them being called "Gates." The fact that they're "Gates is irrelevant to my point. The Gate is not the door in my extended metaphor - the sigil is the door, and the conditions used to pass it are the key. Using byzantine conditions that no one's really meant to meet is the thing with the mold.

    In fact, let's pretend for a second that they're not Gates at all - they're just unidentified MacGuffins you have to guard for unknown and irrelevant reasons. Now, say someone comes along with the proposed sigil plan again. My question is still "Why on earth would that be the vulnerability in your sigil?" You put bypasses like "lets only the pure of heart through" in order to allow access - if you're trying to deny anyone access to the MacGuffin whatsoever, leaving a hole, no matter how Byzantine, is a non-optimal solution compared to "throw that exact same type of magic into a ward that just keeps anyone out". Meanwhile, if your goal were instead "keep most people out but allow emergency access", your sigil conditions are nigh useless, because bypassing them takes ages.

    Could you just dispel the sigil if you needed in? Absolutely! As dancrilis alluded to, sigils are still vulnerable to brute force attacks like dispelling, etc. What else is in the exact same situation? A ward that just zaps everyone who tries to get in - except that one can't also be bypassed by meeting the obscure conditions.

    Rule of thumb - don't build a backdoor into your defenses unless it's meant to be used. A condition literally no one is actually supposed to meet is a condition you should leave out.
    Last edited by DaggerPen; 2016-08-04 at 06:58 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    I'd make it extremely public so that every villain would kill each other in order to try to control it. ;)
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    While it doesn't really address the main point (which DaggerPen already did address), I'd also like to mention that "lost to the mists of time" seems, to me, to imply less knowledge then we have. The Gates were created by Lirian and Dorukan less than a hundred years ago. "Those who created the Gates" are, in two cases, also those who fortified them; none of the Order of the Scribble were furrowing their brows going, "Huh, I wonder why this is a Gate, but I better not block access to it off entirely, it might be needed for something."

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Except that by choosing not to document anything for posterity, they have obscured any knowledge of why they were created as gates in the first place, as opposed to walls, hence the knowledge gap. It's almost like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle - we're finding more and more out about the gates - who created them, what they are gating, what is on the other side, who is trying to open them, what their destruction causes etc. - in the meantime we are further away from finding out why on earth someone would build a construct which allows access to the end of the world switch instead of just denying all possible access.

    I think if we're looking at defending the gates to ensure they remain walls as opposed to doorways, then a "shoot the messenger" approach could work - set all your best wizards, illusionists, builders etc. to creating the most elaborate defence they can in terms of actual physical barriers, magic wards, phantasms etc. BUT don't let them tell you what they've done - send an expeditionary force to attempt to reach the gate - again don't find out HOW, merely IF they reach it.... once that's done, kill them all - that way the only one left is you, and all you know is there is a gate, because you have carefully arranged for all others with any more knowledge to be dead.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    For the record, I have no objection to the idea of defenses that assume you or someone else may need legitimate access to the Gates at some point - indeed, I think the exercise is more fun if we do. I just think it's silly to put in a backdoor if it's not meant to be used. I'd rather do something like "A sigil that can only be used by the pure of heart, if the pure of heart are announcing aloud their intent to destroy/access and repair (as appropriate) the Gate and knowledge of what that entails while they do so, with a sign next to the sigil saying that you must tell the sigil what you truthfully intend in order to reach your goal," which prevents accidental destruction but still allows emergency access.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Problem: The planet you're on holds the key to the destruction of the entire universe.

    Assumption: This is not the only planet.

    Solution: Remove every sentient creature from the planet, resist the urge to call it Forbidden Planet. Instead, call it Boring Planet. No one wants to go to Boring Planet.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    NinjaGirl

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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    ... actually, that's an interesting point. I think that the Snarl can probably destroy the entire plane, but we know the outer planes would be safe during the "destroy and rebuild the world" step required to fix the rifts for real. I can see the gods being unable to agree on a "remove everyone and put them back after" plan - that may reveal too much to the mere mortals, and some gods may be reluctant to cede the flux of follower souls that can power them up (Hel) - but it's theoretically possible for some ridiculously epic level adventurers. I doubt we're getting to that power level, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Kommander View Post
    Heartless? Those flaming letters spelled ELAN! How many sons can honestly say their father has murdered dozens of human beings just to show how much they care?

    Tarquin's fatherly love is truly unique... or at least I hope it is!
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Build a sequence of dungeons, in widely separated locations each of which (after the first) can only be entered or exited through a (possibly epic) teleportation spell set up in this way:

    - each person has to step into a 5x5 room, one at a time, and close the door.
    - if the door is closed with one person in the room, a small hole opens up in the wall.
    - reach into the hole and press the button to teleport to the next dungeon.
    - after the teleport happens, the door unlocks and the next person can go through.

    Fill each dungeon with assorted tricks, traps, constructs, monsters, sigils, wards, illusions, whatevers you want to make anyone feel that they have earned their way through the dungeon. Sure, make it so that you can get through if you need to.

    Provide sufficient just-not-quite-too-hard-to-solve clues (like, put into a diary in a secret-but-breakable code, that is conveniently found in one of the early dungeons) to indicate that you have to get through twenty of these dungeons to reach the final deep, sealed completely separate room with the gate. (physically located somewhere else entirely).

    However, while the room to teleport out of dungeon eleven into dungeon twelve looks exactly like all the others, it works differently. To teleport you don't press the button in the hole, you circle around the hole with your thumb, anti-clockwise, and that teleports you straight to the room with the gate. Dungeons twelve through twenty don't exist. Don't tell anyone untrusted this. Instead, put a sphere of annihilation in the hole.

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    Last edited by DeliaP; 2016-08-04 at 08:14 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by dtilque View Post
    I'm going to assume that I don't know that the gate can be moved. After all, the Order of the Scribble didn't know that.

    So bury it. Surround it with layers of multidimensional stone and lead, and maybe some other stuff like adamantium. Make lead the outermost layer, so no one can tell there's magical stuff inside. Leave no open area around it that someone can teleport into. Fill the gap between the rock and the gate with dirt so there's no open space there at all. Around the lead, put lots of ordinary rock and then soil above that. Landscape the area around it so it blends in well with the surrounding land. Just another hill.

    If someone learns the coordinates and teleports there, they'll find nothing. They'll figure their info was wrong.

    Removing as many references to the gate in various documents (found in libraries, etc.) would also be a good step. Especially any coordinates or other description of its location.

    This would not work with the Azure City gate, since that was high in the air before they built the castle up to it. There rest were more or less at ground level as far as I can tell, so it would work with those.
    The only problem is that if you manage to fool everyone into thinking there's nothing there, there's still the risk that someone would come along and mine it or build a castle there or something.

    I'd do the sigil thing, do the buried in the earth thing around it, and then to top it off I'd build a strip club over it. The strip club would be named Pleasure's Gate so whoever arrives there would think the information was just set-up for a punchline. Of course, the gate would still be found anyway because it's a story and one way or another it was always going to be found.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Christopher K.'s Avatar

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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    In a manner that fits what the Order of the Scribble was doing and in-character? I'd have to say my Gate's gimmick would be constructs in a subterranean vault, sealed off from the outside world. After all, constructs don't need to breathe, can work tirelessly, don't have lives outside of their designated functions, and are difficult to deceive, so give them orders to constantly build and maintain each other.

    The epic gimmick(the virus, the final illusion, the Sapphire Martyrs, etc) would be that the entire dungeon would be controlled by a core mind modeled after myself to make any executive decisions as necessary once I am no longer there to supervise, capable of rearranging dungeon terrain as need be.

    ..You know, this is starting to sound a lot like Aperture Science.

    Besides, that steampunk stuff is SUPER trendy these days.
    Last edited by Christopher K.; 2016-08-05 at 09:36 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    NinjaGirl

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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher K. View Post
    In a manner that fits what the Order of the Scribble was doing and in-character? I'd have to say my Gate's gimmick would be constructs in a subterranean vault, sealed off from the outside world. After all, constructs don't need to breathe, can work tirelessly, don't have lives outside of their designated functions, and are difficult to deceive, so give them orders to constantly build and maintain each other.

    The epic gimmick(the virus, the final illusion, the Sapphire Martyrs, etc) would be that the entire dungeon would be controlled by a core mind modeled after myself to make any executive decisions as necessary once I am no longer there to supervise, capable of rearranging dungeon terrain as need be.

    ..You know, this is starting to sound a lot like Aperture Science.

    Besides, that steampunk stuff is SUPER trendy these days.
    ... not gonna lie, that sounds super cool. Trying to think what your thematic Gate weakness would be - maybe someone manages to subvert or override the constructs' orders, which they continue to follow mindlessly?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Kommander View Post
    Heartless? Those flaming letters spelled ELAN! How many sons can honestly say their father has murdered dozens of human beings just to show how much they care?

    Tarquin's fatherly love is truly unique... or at least I hope it is!
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    ... not gonna lie, that sounds super cool. Trying to think what your thematic Gate weakness would be - maybe someone manages to subvert or override the constructs' orders, which they continue to follow mindlessly?
    I'd imagine that the thematic weakness would be to somehow convince the core that the Gate would be safest if someone had easy access to it, though Xykon or Durkula or any intelligent undead could easily walk in if the constructs were merely ordered to keep all living creatures from reaching the gate. After all, a simple oversight like that can be the downfall of an overconfident artificer.
    Last edited by Christopher K.; 2016-08-05 at 10:53 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher K. View Post
    I'd imagine that the thematic weakness would be to somehow convince the core that the Gate would be safest if someone had easy access to it, though Xykon could easily walk in if the constructs were ordered to keep all living creatures from reaching the gate.
    And here I thought the core weakness would be the core would be too well designed and so would go slowly insane from the decades of isolation and end up seeking to unleash the Snarl solely to ends its misery (or it would create a body and wander off to do something else).

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by ViscountGrey View Post
    Unfortunately the very existence of a gate which is known to be preventing the end of the world is almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. As Elan proved to us in Dorukan's Dungeon, showing a person a big lever marked "End of the World Switch. Do not touch under any circumstances. No not even those, I know what you're thinking..." is a precursor to the words "I wonder what this does?" followed by "Oops."

    On the other hand if you were to get an Epic wizard (or soul splice V again) and send them through the gate with some kind of epic destruction spell (As we're talking a snarl here, could we have a "epic disentanglement" ?), with some chance of survival (or have a cleric on standby with the diamond dust!), could we be looking at problem solved?

    Actually, I like the idea of V doing this - it's a pretty major action of atonement that counts on their end-of-life record.
    I dont think a direct attack could work based on what we know. The Snarl destroyed an entire pantheon of Gods in moments. As far as replicating the movement spell for the gates, I suppose its possible but it seems like it would need direct divine intervention. Theres no indication that the Scribble had any idea such a thing was possible. On top of that the gates are only threatened because someone knows this spell. Its actually bad if more people know it. If you did learn the spell you should make sure there is no record of it and then suicide immediatly after casting it - possibly by entering the snarl and destroying your own soul. Unfortuantly the best defence the gates had was destroyed when Sereni decided to keep a jornal - secrecy. Once the existance of a location is known then its a hittable target. No dungeon of any type could be kept safe from a sufficently determined attacker. A plane shift could be followed, a lead vault could be dug up, etc.

    My idea for the best defense for the gate is to convince the gods to reach an accord with the Dark One. Give him Azure City and its surrunding lands. Make a bargain in return for withdrawing knowledge of the spell from Redcloak and Xylon. With the souce of knowledge of the spell gone the gates could be repaired and the current status quo maintained.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
    I'd do the sigil thing,
    You mean ward. And yes, I should have included those in my idea.

    do the buried in the earth thing around it, and then to top it off I'd build a strip club over it. The strip club would be named Pleasure's Gate so whoever arrives there would think the information was just set-up for a punchline.
    Mommy, why is there a strip club in the middle of 1) an elven forest, 2) remote mountains, 3) uninhabited desert, or 4) arctic wasteland?

    Of course, the gate would still be found anyway because it's a story and one way or another it was always going to be found.
    Very true. If a future adventure(s) is destined to discover an Eldritch Horror whose very nature drives men mad, Mad, MAD... then all the defences, hiding, and trickery in the world won't do any good. You can't fight narrativium.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by dtilque View Post
    Mommy, why is there a strip club in the middle of 1) an elven forest, 2) remote mountains, 3) uninhabited desert, or 4) arctic wasteland?
    A.) What kind of parent takes their kid to a strip club?
    2.) What kind of parent takes their kid to an arctic wasteland, or uninhabited desert?
    III.) Why is there not a strip club there, is the real question. Time to tweak up Faerun a bit! "Welcome to Icewind Male, an all-male revue."

    More puns to come as i think of them.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2016-08-05 at 04:12 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by dtilque View Post
    Mommy, why is there a strip club in the middle of 1) an elven forest, 2) remote mountains, 3) uninhabited desert, or 4) arctic wasteland?
    Then you would need to put up strip clubs in random locations all around the world so that it would seem normal. You know, for the good of humanity.

    Or I guess you could create a town around the strip club. That might be a little more practical.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Hmmm, I'm not an expert of the D&D system, but I do have a good idea. Make a 3D maze, one made of hundreds of sections that have portals to navigate between them instead of just corridors. The layout changes every few hours, and every single sections is filled with dozens of savage monsters with high spell resistance, as well as sadistic traps such as Gaseous Form + Gust Of Wind to seperate party members, or blasting them with several Disjunctions to take out magic items such as Ring Of Energy Immunity. Also, since a party trying to get the gates would be almost certainly be Evil, including spells such as Holy Smite or Protection From Evil would have a great effect. The walls of course have been lined with lead and admantium to prevent from simply breaking through.

    And lastly, add a subtle pattern, in the form of monsters getting more powerful the closer you get to somewhere. When the BBEG catches on to it, he'll naturaly follow it. In this last room, make a fake Gate. When touched, the final trap is set off: Dozens of powerful explosive spells that deal sonic damage, or if possible force damage, followed by several Sphere of Annihilation spells combined with Rods of Cancelation for 2d6*10*n damage.

    The gate itself is located in the core of the maze, cut off and inaccessible without tearing down the entire thing.
    Last edited by danielxcutter; 2016-08-05 at 11:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    A Sphere of Annihilation isn't a spell. It's a minor artifact. A Rod of Cancellation is a magic item, not a spell. There's probably some way, at a certain level of resources, to make the ceiling rain Spheres of Annihilation followed by Rods of Cancellation aimed at the Spheres, but, especially with the preceding "tons of force damage" idea, this looks like way more resources than any member of the Order of the Scribble had.

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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    A Sphere of Annihilation isn't a spell. It's a minor artifact. A Rod of Cancellation is a magic item, not a spell. There's probably some way, at a certain level of resources, to make the ceiling rain Spheres of Annihilation followed by Rods of Cancellation aimed at the Spheres, but, especially with the preceding "tons of force damage" idea, this looks like way more resources than any member of the Order of the Scribble had.
    Yeah, my bad, that was what I meant to say in the first place. Stupid typo. Also, you're also right about the expenses - the Oots world might not even have those things, let alone in the number I was thinking about. What about the massive force damage overkill by the way, is that too expensive as well? I did mention sonic damage first, but force damage is better since it can't be blocked by a Ring Of Sonic Immunity.

    I presume that the other ideas were okay, since you haven't said anything about that.
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    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Thing is, it's hard to say what kind of budget makes sense here. What's the cost-equivalent of Cloister? Or of the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard? Or a family of homegrown sociopath sorcerers? I don't know.

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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Thing is, it's hard to say what kind of budget makes sense here. What's the cost-equivalent of Cloister? Or of the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard? Or a family of homegrown sociopath sorcerers? I don't know.
    How much would be a sufficient budget for five low~mid twenties level adventurers? That should be a less vague way to judge it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    I would have done the exact same thing Serini did, only every single path would end with a fake gate identical to the real one.
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Pull a "Tomb of Horrors" on them. Have a single dungeon entrance, well shadowed, black as pitch. With a Sphere of Annihilation in it.
    Maybe a backup trap that causes several such Spheres to be shot through the corridor at high speed and return, too.

    Anything from the "Killer DM" handbook, really.

    [EDIT: Therkla'd by DeliaP and Danielxcutter, possibly others.]
    Last edited by Mandor; 2016-08-06 at 05:55 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    danielxcutter's Avatar

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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandor View Post
    Pull a "Tomb of Horrors" on them. Have a single dungeon entrance, well shadowed, black as pitch. With a Sphere of Annihilation in it.
    Maybe a backup trap that causes several such Spheres to be shot through the corridor at high speed and return, too.

    Anything from the "Killer DM" handbook, really.

    [EDIT: Therkla'd by DeliaP and Danielxcutter, possibly others.]
    *head tilt* Therkla'd? Does that have to do with the "ninja'd" thingy I keep seeing? Btw what does "swordsage'd" mean?
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

    Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
    We also have a TvTropes page!

    Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal) Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    *head tilt* Therkla'd? Does that have to do with the "ninja'd" thingy I keep seeing? Btw what does "swordsage'd" mean?
    Correct on Therkla = Ninja but no idea on the Swordsage bit. That one is new to me.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandor View Post
    Correct on Therkla = Ninja but no idea on the Swordsage bit. That one is new to me.
    "Swordsage'd" is just another variation on "Ninja'd". It's preferred by some people because the Swordsage is a more OP class.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    *head tilt* Therkla'd? Does that have to do with the "ninja'd" thingy I keep seeing? Btw what does "swordsage'd" mean?
    Swordsage is a D&D class from Tome of Battle. Widely renowned for, among other things, making good ninjas.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Well, how'd YOU defend the GATES?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandor View Post
    Correct on Therkla = Ninja but no idea on the Swordsage bit. That one is new to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyron View Post
    "Swordsage'd" is just another variation on "Ninja'd". It's preferred by some people because the Swordsage is a more OP class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Swordsage is a D&D class from Tome of Battle. Widely renowned for, among other things, making good ninjas.
    Oh. *chuckles*
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

    Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
    We also have a TvTropes page!

    Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal) Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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