[advice] Star wars saga: jedi builds

[lord4571]

so im currently two star wars saga games. in the first one im a padawan to a master during the 50 year lore gap after the 2nd death star was destroyed (if their is lore on that time it doesn't matter gm chose this time so she can have mostly free control).
currently the party consist of 3 padawans (jedi class) gungan, zeltron and me (tougta){ahsoka tano race: incase i spelt the race name wrong} as well as a mandalorin (soldier) and some person from hoth (skill monkey it seems).

the gungan is wanting to go twf and than work on defense. (dex build)

the zeltron is wanting to go cha route a bit as well wield a lightsaber pike and gain a good amount of force powers.

as for me im wanting to also do a twf build getting as many attacks in as possible as well has having some force powers. (dex build)

for the mandalorin he is better in melee than ranged but as you can see above we already got 3 melee fighters he is ok with a blaster but currently im pretty sure if i picked up a blaster pistol id be just as good as him when using it without weapon pro in guns.

the last is the scientist. she is good with a blaster and is a our skill monkey (tech mostly)

so with a party like this im unsure what i should do. my original plan was to go sneaky melee fighter being my focus which could still work i just dont want to step on anyones toes in their roles.

for the other game we have 4 jedi (padawan level) and a noble, scout or scoundrel, and 1 other player.
in this one i've gone dex cha and wis like before we just have super high scores.

i was planing on being a slight face by taking force persuasion and having deception as a skill. i do have a high int mod so i'm a bit of a skill monkey jedi in terms of how other jedi starting at level 1 would be.
so in this one i'm unsure if i should go twf and get in as many attacks as i possibly can like my other build path or if i should go more force powers. one of the jedi i know is going to be a force power monkey or wants to be but for me i do at least want to take the duel wield and weapon finesse than decide from where i should go from there. im just unsure which build path to go with this one.

some help or advice on how i should or could build would be great (ive got 42 levels planned for the first game cuz i just started planing and thats what happened but i do understand there are a lot of issues getting that far)

[Philistine]

First things first: There is a thread devoted to answering SWSE questions on this forum.

Second: Melee TWF is not what you'd call a strong option. Seriously. This is not an option for playing, this is an option for GMs who want to build NPCs who will look scary but immediately fall to pieces at the first sign of even slightly intelligent tactics from the PCs. Pistol shooters can get away with dual wielding, because they don't have to move; but for melee fighters, who will often (or always) have to move to reach their targets, every single Feat devoted to "getting as many attacks in as possible" (and every single Talent required to raise the accuracy of those attacks so that they will be even a little bit useful) might as well not even exist in any round where they don't start out standing next to an opponent. Using a single saber in two hands to deliver one big, accurate hit per round is generally more reliable, especially if the Lightsaber Form powers from JATM are allowed.

Third: It probably seems counterintuitive, but a Force user (especially a saber specialist) doesn't really need a high Wisdom - a +1 will do in a pinch. Your Force suite is reset at the end of every encounter, so you only need enough powers to get through a single fight, and every round you spend swinging a saber instead of using a Force power reduces your need even more. If you prioritized Wis in either build, it's probably worth redistributing some of those points.

Fourth: If you want to do Jedi + Face, the most straightforward way is to start as a Noble (you can still start with Force Sensitivity, and may even be able to take Force Training at level 1, depending on your choice of species), then go shopping for offensive Force powers with your Force Trainings - high Cha will boost both your social skills and the effectiveness of your powers.

[RandomLunatic]

Normally I'd agree with Phil, but your first party is so melee-heavy you may be able to get away with a full attack melee build. This is more PartyOp than CharOp, so you'll need to make sure they're on the same page.

The biggest problem melee multi-attack build have is that melee combat in Saga isn't "sticky"-if you're overmatched, a simple move action to withdraw will get you free. And then your attacker has to waste a move of his own to get back in range, and the cycle repeats. But you're a Togruta in a melee-heavy party-you'll be going for flanking attacks all the time. You can't withdraw if you're flanked. And therein lies the key.

The Gungan is in the same boat you are, and should be all too enthusiastic. The Zeltron has reach and no real pressing need for its move action, so he should be able to give you a flank pretty easily. And you said the Mandalorian prefers melee combat, so he'll probably be a reliable flanking partner.

NOTE: This advice works best with access to the Legacy of the Force Campaign Guide.

You'll want to train Acrobatics so you can get into position. Unless you've got backgrounds or house rules in play, Stealth training will cost you a dip in either scout or scoundrel. Legacy of the Force has the Scout talent Quick on Your Feet, which gives a 1/encounter ability to move and throw down a full attack. The Saber Swarm and Rising Whirlwind lightsaber forms both grant an ersatz full attack following a move, although the above talent makes them less urgent than normal. And also look into the Brute Squad talent tree, also from Legacy. It's made for melee-heavy parties. Melee Assault is definitely the best, since it'll be a desperately needed boost to your crudtactular damage, and knocks 'em prone to make it even harder for them to escape.

Put it all together, and you should be aiming for something like this at level 6.


Padawan
Medium Togruta Jedi 4/Soldier 1/Scout 1
HP 68 ; Damage Threshold 19
Defenses: Fort 19, Ref 22, Will 18
Force Points 8

Melee Lightsaber +9 (2d8+3) or
Melee Lightsaber +4/+4 (2d8+3) with DWM I

Special Actions: Dual Weapon Mastery I, Quick on Your Feet, Melee Assault, Force Powers (UtF +14) [Pick 6, recommend Saber Swarm, Rising Whirlwind, Battle Strike, and Move Object]

Base Attack +5 ; Grp +9

Abilities STR 8, DEX 19, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 13 (I used a 32 point buy, you'll have to adjust for your stats)

Talents Block, Deflect, Melee Assault, Quick on Your Feet

Feats Dual Weapon Mastery I, Force Training (x2), Force Sensitive, Skill Focus (UtF), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Proficiency (Lightsaber, Simple, Pistol or Rifle)

Skills Acrobatics +12, Intiative +12, Stealth +12, UtF + 14

You are going to want to take your next level in Soldier for DWM II (The only reason you don't have it yet is because you don't meet the pre-reqs), and then you'll PrC into Jedi Knight and then Master, where you can pretty much stay. If your GM starts throwing lots of tumbling enemies at you in order to escape your double team setup, you'll want to grab Tumble Defense at 9th level.

For your second character, I recommend going "force wizard", since as you can see there's not really room to make the same character both a face and a dual wielder without fatally compromising one or both functions. And the party seems less capable of covering your weaknesses.

[Philistine]

Those are good points, and that build could work. One nitpick, though: with a level of Scout in the mix, he won't satisfy the BAB requirement to enter JK until 9.

There's a more serious issue, as well: the perennial danger with Party Op is of course the rest of the party. Perhaps I've just been unlucky, but over the years I've played in groups with an awful lot of non-optimizers, and more than a few anti-optimizers (who actively reject playing tactically in combat*) - groups which cooperate effectively seem to me to be the exception rather than the rule. If your fellow players don't get on board with the fairly specific (if obvious) tactics required to make multi-attacking effective, then you're back to setting a bunch of Feats on fire.

Also note that even if the other party members do get on the Team Buzzsaw train, you'll still likely have to move every round or two to switch to a new target... or any time the GM does something creative that requires frequent movement during a fight. That's a big part of why I'm so high on the various "pseudo-Full Attack" and "Move-and-Attack" Lightsaber Form powers in JATM - sure, they're 1/encounter, but you at least have a small chance to recharge them during a fight. At higher levels, you can even take them multiple times. But most of those don't require, or even take advantage of, wielding multiple lightsabers, so you might as well two-hand one and enjoy the increased accuracy and damage.


* Which was especially funny with a PC whose hook was "Grizzled veteran of every major armed conflict (and most of the minor ones) in the setting over the past few decades" being played by a guy whose attitude was, "My character's actions shouldn't be influenced by knowing what is likely to be effective (or even possible) in any situation."