Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

[dancrilis]

It's so frustrating to hear people repeat the same arguments after they've been discussed to death. This isn't necessarily true at all.

You're big on irony I see.

[Ruck]

You're big on irony I see.

Not nearly as big as you are on wishful thinking.

I wouldn't have to repeat myself if people didn't consistently show up saying "But what about X?" when X has been discussed at length already.

[dancrilis]

Not nearly as big as you are on wishful thinking.

Please explain what you think I am wishing in my thoughts?

[snowblizz]

burning Belkar's paperwork,

V's paperwork. Not sure why am pointing that out really.

[GreyTraveller]

I wouldn't have to repeat myself if people didn't consistently show up saying "But what about X?" when X has been discussed at length already.

Welcome to the forum. ;)

[mouser9169]

Welcome to the forum. ;)

Welcome to life ;)

There was nothing left under the sun when the preacher wrote Ecclesiastes thousands of years ago. Elon Musk thinks we're living in a computer simulation. A very in depth analysis of that proposition was written and expounded by Rene Descartes in 1637. No one bothers to read the philosophies and discourses of those who have gone before us, so naturally forum posts keep getting made asking the same things over and over again...

[BaronOfHell]

No one bothers to read the philosophies and discourses of those who have gone before us, so naturally forum posts keep getting made asking the same things over and over again...

Well it is easier said than done. Even with the standard search feature of a forum it's not always straight forward to find what you're looking for. Also taking part in a discussion brings life to the forum, it's not a library, but a forum after all.

As it is, the way forums are ordered, with linear threads and zero cataloging, is in my opinion too unordered to be able to easily generate an automatic response process to already answered questions, but again I don't think it'd be a proper forum if people's replies were not of indistinguishable in every part except for the text they contain. That is to say every opinion is equal and only subject to a moderator.

[Aquillion]

As others have said, he'd obviously be happy in the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right.

Generally, I think Eugene wants to live in an "optimal" world - not just optimal for him, but optimal for everyone. He's a utilitarian, basically. He probably hates seeing people suffer around him because it's suboptimal. The Lawful Good afterlife satisfies that need - he can look out the window and say "this place is well-run", which he probably wouldn't say in any other afterlife.

(I suspect he'd say the LN afterlife is directionless and pointless; the LE afterlife is counterproductive; and all the non-lawful afterlives are even worse. Only the LG afterlife would qualify as well-run in his book. Even if he's probably a bit annoyed at their policy over blood oaths at this point.)

[Ruck]

Please explain what you think I am wishing in my thoughts?

I think you make a lot of "devil's advocate"-style post where you invent scenarios or off-panel information in order to contradict someone's argument.

[dancrilis]

I think you make a lot of "devil's advocate"-style post where you invent scenarios or off-panel information in order to contradict someone's argument.

How is that wishful thinking?

[Darth Paul]

For my two cents on the topic, I present this analogy: why does someone want to get into a country club they were denied membership at years ago? Even if they really don't like anyone else there, don't play golf much, and don't very much agree with the politics of anyone there?

It simply shows a degree of achievement, and furthermore, it's thumbing one's nose at the social order. "I'm important enough that you CAN'T keep me out. So there."

[Goblin_Priest]

Because it's a nice place to spend the rest of your existence in.

[wumpus]

As others have said, he'd obviously be happy in the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right.

Generally, I think Eugene wants to live in an "optimal" world - not just optimal for him, but optimal for everyone. He's a utilitarian, basically. He probably hates seeing people suffer around him because it's suboptimal. The Lawful Good afterlife satisfies that need - he can look out the window and say "this place is well-run", which he probably wouldn't say in any other afterlife.

(I suspect he'd say the LN afterlife is directionless and pointless; the LE afterlife is counterproductive; and all the non-lawful afterlives are even worse. Only the LG afterlife would qualify as well-run in his book. Even if he's probably a bit annoyed at their policy over blood oaths at this point.)

I have to wonder just how many lost souls are camping outside of Arcadia waiting for their blood oaths to expire. While I don't feel that wrath and vengeance were all that critical (now and before death) to Eugene, it certainly is an issue. But Eugene is the only one waiting outside of Celestia, I'm sure there are plenty in Arcadia (running down the insufficiently good is a huge pastime in Arcadia).

[Tanzan Aura]

Because it's a nice place to spend the rest of your existence in.

Pretty much my opinion too. He doesn't seem to want people around him to hurt, but he seems to think of himself first before thinking about others.
But maybe we'll see if that's the only reason in the future ?

[DeliaP]

We see Eugene's gravestone in OtOoPC. He stayed dead for at least some time between resurrections, since at one point the dates read "1124-1143, 1144-1149".

The complete gravestone is as follows:
Eugene Greenhilt
(1102-1124, 1124-1143, 1144-1149, 1149-1158, 1158-1159, 1159-1168, 1168-1180)

Master Wizard
Devoted Husband
Passable Father

Hmm. Quick mental calculation, then, from memory. I think Roy was about 20 years old when Eugene "really" died, right? Meaning that he would have remembered one death and resurrection in 1168 when he was about 8, but no others.

~25 I believe.

Interestingly when Eugene died in 1168 he likely met with Eric (or at least would have had the opportunity too), and the deaths in 1158 and 1159 (and to a lesser extent 1168) when Roy was young might be what Sara remembers disfondly.

Hmmm... I was hoping for Roy to be 20 on that, because it would lead to possibilities:

- the 1168 resurrection could actually be from the same accident that killed Eric;

- the 1158 and 1159 could be just after Eugene meets Sara, which combined with Roy's imminent arrival in 1160 convinces Eugene to quit the adventuring.

Whereas a 25 yo Roy at Eugene's death means Eugene meets Sara before 1155, maybe not long after the 1149 resurrection, but somehow manages to get himself killed when Roy is about 3, 4 and 13, which is quite a lot for someone who had apparently quit adventuring.

I'd also go with Eugene simply not remembering any of the details of his interviews - we know Roy doesn't know anything about what happens beyond the gates, but has he shown any memories of the interview with the deva?

It's quite possible Eugene had follow up reviews where he was told in 1143, 1149, 1158 and 1159 that, as he was an LG (then, at least) adventurer, all he had to do was clear up this BOoV business once he got raised, and all would be well. (The 1124 interview was quite likely before he swore the oath)

The 1168 date is more interesting, as it would have to be after he had abandoned the oath, and quite likely either at the time or after Eric's death. I find it hard to imagine him not getting a reminder of it in 1168, which if he could remember that, would make his surprise in 1180 hard to understand. Possibly he did get the reminder in 1168, was just casual and complacent about it, then realised he needed to tell Roy... in which case in 1180 he was somehow hoping to just sneak in without mentioning it.

(But, on the whole, I really think the gravestone was a joke and we weren't meant to pay too much attention to the detailed timeline)

[arrowed]

Wait... Roy has died and come back. In the interval, he was allowed to enter Celestia, and had a little weighing of the soul with the deva. Eugene has died several times, as noted above, but never stayed dead for more than a year until his death of old age. So... what were Eugene's previous experiences on the waiting cloud? While pursuing the Oath, was he allowed into the seven heavens, only to be told on his penultimate death that he wasn't following it up so he couldn't get in? Or was he never dead long enough to be judged?

[Kish]

It hasn't been indicated. All that was depicted in the comic, was him getting partway through the interview (after he died the final time) and going "Oh crap" when the deva runs across the Blood Oath on his record.

I favor "all the previous times, he was resurrected ten minutes later and never spoke to a deva." (Note that Roy didn't get interviewed until after he'd watched the entire Battle of Azure City.)

Other people favor "he got into Celestia every time before."

Neither has real support, neither should be used as evidence for anything else.

[georgie_leech]

It hasn't been indicated. All that was depicted in the comic, was him getting partway through the interview (after he died the final time) and going "Oh crap" when the deva runs across the Blood Oath on his record.

I favor "all the previous times, he was resurrected ten minutes later and never spoke to a deva." (Note that Roy didn't get interviewed until after he'd watched the entire Battle of Azure City.)

Other people favor "he got into Celestia every time before."

Neither has real support, neither should be used as evidence for anything else.

There was a blip at 1143-1144, unless we want to assume he died on new years that time.

I agree that these can't really be used as evidence either way. After all, given that the deva didn't even bring up the Blood Oath for Roy until it was mentioned, the devas might just go 'adventuring while under a Blood Oath is trying to fulfill said oath.'

[martianmister]

There was a blip at 1143-1144, unless we want to assume he died on new years that time.

That could be happened before he swore the oath. According to the unofficial timeline:

~1144 After visiting the Oracle of the Sunken valley, Eugene learns the identity of Fyron's murderer. Some time after this, after a drunken visit to a bar, he visits a tattoo parlour and has a tattoo representing a Blood Oath of Vengence placed on his back.

[martianmister]

(But, on the whole, I really think the gravestone was a joke and we weren't meant to pay too much attention to the detailed timeline)

He himself used it as a source:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...07&postcount=4

[DeliaP]

According to the unofficial timeline:

Heh, adding in the death/resurrection dates:

1102-1124, Just as Eugene finishes his official apprenticeship with Fyron (an accident?)

1124-1143, Exactly after Fyron is killed, but before swearing blood oath! (Eugene's first adventuring attempts? Perhaps the length of time was because being lower level, it took his adventuring buddies a bit of time to get together the price of a raise dead?)

1144-1149, During Eugene's adventuring.

1149-1158, 1158-1159, After Roy is born, before Eric is born, but after Eugene is supposed to have given up adventuring?

1159-1168, After Eric dies, after Julia is born.

1168-1180. Natural death.

Looks to me that of his seven deaths, only two were while adventuring. Four seem most likely to be magical accidents (perhaps contributes to his carelessness over Eric's safety - he just didn't take the danger as seriously?) or else he must have been just generally reckless or unlucky.

Anyway, doesn't answer the question of whether Eugene got into heaven, or had an interview with a Deva, following deaths 3-6, the ones after the BoOV was sworn. Quite possibly we have:

Death 1: Judged LG, preliminaries dealt with, gets into heaven temporarily.
Death 2: Case reviewed, nothing new, gets into heaven temporarily, may have stayed there a while.
Death 3: First post-BoOV. May have been raised immediately, by adventuring buddies, so no time for a case review.
Deaths 4-5: Ought to be post-adventures. Happening twice in quick succession indicates still pursuing dangerous occupations - perhaps dangerous enough to keep raise dead's handy. Possibly raised quickly, especially if still being called on to adventure (protect the town under attack etc.)
Death 6: No idea about this one, I mean it's post-Eric and post-Julia so he really should have retired from adventuring and quit the dangerous experiments by then. How was he raised so quickly that he didn't at least get a case review?

It's possible that after Death 2, he gets access to the revolving door for Deaths 3-6, because it's now just assumed that he'll be raised if it's not a natural death. Only after Death 7, which is natural and therefore permanent, do they conduct a full case review, and then the BoOV comes up....

[Psyren]

It's so frustrating to hear people repeat the same arguments after they've been discussed to death. This isn't necessarily true at all.

I don't live on this subforum, so the polite thing to do would be to link me to whatever it is you think I should have read rather than assuming I'm being willfully obdurate.

Unless of course, you don't actually think whatever you have is particularly persuasive evidence.

[Ruck]

I don't live on this subforum, so the polite thing to do would be to link me to whatever it is you think I should have read rather than assuming I'm being willfully obdurate.

Unless of course, you don't actually think whatever you have is particularly persuasive evidence.

Nice passive-aggressive digs there, Guy Preaching Politeness.

I could respond in kind: "Why don't you tell me where the conclusive evidence that Eugene was approved and about to be sent up is? Unless of course, you don't actually think whatever you have is particularly persuasive evidence."

Since you're making the assertive case, the onus to provide evidence is on you anyway. Can't prove a negative.

But to keep this from becoming protracted, I'll just say that there's no evidence to that end at all, merely evidence that Eugene was in the middle of being evaluated when the Blood Oath was discovered. On top of that, the Giant pretty pointedly asked, in response to questions about Eugene's Lawful Goodness, "Is Eugene in Celestia yet?" which I took as a pretty clear indicator that people who assumed Eugene passed the evaluation and would be sent up as soon as the Blood Oath was completed were jumping the gun.

[Aquillion]

This isn't a thread about whether Eugene is LG, anyway. This is a thread about why Eugene wants to get into the LG afterlife - why he prefers to think of himself as LG, or why he feels he'd be happier there. People have given lots of reasons for that.

[Psyren]

I could respond in kind: "Why don't you tell me where the conclusive evidence that Eugene was approved and about to be sent up is? Unless of course, you don't actually think whatever you have is particularly persuasive evidence."

The planetar in SoD explicitly said he didn't see anything serious in Eugene's record. Then he saw the BOoV.

Your rebuttal?

[Kish]

There was a blip at 1143-1144, unless we want to assume he died on new years that time.

I briefly thought I'd need to rethink my favored explanation. Then DeliaP pointed out that that was before he'd sworn the Blood Oath in the first place. Thanks, DeliaP.

About Death 6--I'd like to point out again that Roy didn't get a case review for hours, when he died. Humor suggests that Eugene got yanked back either just after the deva said "Your turn now, Mr. Greenhilt," or right before the deva said, "Wait, I see a Blood Oath of Vengeance."

[Jasdoif]

The planetar in SoD explicitly said he didn't see anything serious in Eugene's record. Then he saw the BOoV.

The most common theory on that point is that the Blood Oath of Vengeance was the first serious thing he saw, and didn't look for anything else in Eugene's record pending resolution of the Blood Oath of Vengeance.

My own theory on that point is that the entire interview page is intentionally misleading on whether or not Eugene qualifies for the Lawful Good afterlife; hence why we don't hear what led up to Eugene's "so...am I good here, or what?", nor do we get anything resembling a yes or no answer to that question.

[dancrilis]

The most common theory on that point is that the Blood Oath of Vengeance was the first serious thing he saw, and didn't look for anything else in Eugene's record pending resolution of the Blood Oath of Vengeance.

I am dubious as to whether or not that is the most common theory or just the most loudly indicated theory.

[Goblin_Priest]

I fail to see why so many people assume the lapse between resurrection in 1143-1144 is any larger than any of the others. Sure, the maximum potential gap is about twice as long, but the minimum potential gap is equally null. Being killed in November 1143 and then being resurrected in February 1144 is a lot shorter than being killed in February 1144 and resurrected in November 1144, for example, and these aren't even extreme examples.

[Jasdoif]

I am dubious as to whether or not that is the most common theory or just the most loudly indicated theory.

The most common theory for what the interview scene in general meant? I suspect that's the straightforward "the scene implies the Blood Oath is the only thing keeping Eugene out", but that's not what I was talking about.


I was talking about the most common theory for why the interviewer said he didn't see anything serious in Eugene's record, then mentioned the Blood Oath of Vengeance; if Eugene was not necessarily going to be admitted to the Lawful Good afterlife even if the Blood Oath hadn't been a factor.

And while I don't have any way to guess what unstated opinions are, I'm reasonably sure "the interviewer stopped looking" (including the "the interview itself was halted pending completion of the Blood Oath" subset) has come up far more often than "the interviewer was lying" or "the Blood Oath didn't actually constitute 'serious'" but kept Eugene out of the afterlife anyway" (which, on second thought, doesn't even fit the criteria without the interview being halted; since the Blood Oath just being a technicality wouldn't by itself keep Eugene out of the LG afterlife).