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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    The most common theory on that point is that the Blood Oath of Vengeance was the first serious thing he saw, and didn't look for anything else in Eugene's record pending resolution of the Blood Oath of Vengeance.
    Oh it's quite possible that the planetar stopped reading right before the "sauteed several babies" entry. But that relies on speculation, whereas I'm basing my conclusion on what was actually said. That at least constitutes evidence.

    Now, the stuff Eugene has done SINCE being condemned to the cloud is another matter. It's morally dubious at best and unequivocally not lawful, so I wouldn't be surprised if his record has an appendix now if not a few more entries.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Oh it's quite possible that the planetar stopped reading right before the "sauteed several babies" entry. But that relies on speculation, whereas I'm basing my conclusion on what was actually said. That at least constitutes evidence.
    Evidence that the Blood Oath of Vengeance kept Eugene out of the afterlife, sure.

    The problem is that the interviewer said he didn't see anything too serious on the record, and then mentioned the Blood Oath. So either the Blood Oath didn't qualify as "too serious" for him, which would be a really hard argument to make since it kept Eugene out of the afterlife....or the earlier statement meant he hadn't seen anything too serious at that point. And in that case, assuming there was nothing else too serious on the record is speculation, to the same extent that assuming that there was something else too serious on the record is. There's simply nothing there to support a conclusion beyond "the Blood Oath is the first matter the interviewer saw that was worth drawing attention to".


    That said, the entire scene feels like a setup for a dramatic reveal, so I suspect we're going to find out more about the interview later on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Now, the stuff Eugene has done SINCE being condemned to the cloud is another matter. It's morally dubious at best and unequivocally not lawful, so I wouldn't be surprised if his record has an appendix now if not a few more entries.
    I'd have to debate the part Eugene not being Lawful. It seems to me that Eugene consistently puts a great deal of value in things getting done certain ways: magically, reliably, and precisely worded. Certainly seems Lawful to me; that he doesn't put much stock in other notions of order doesn't mean a whole lot.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2016-09-10 at 05:10 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    Yes, this.

    "I see nothing serious--oh wait, I see something serious." It's no more or less speculative to presume that without the Blood Oath, the next line would have been "so go on up" than it is to presume that it would have been "oh wait, I see five more serious things."

    (That said, like Jasdoif if I understand them, I think most likely if Rich wants to establish that more than the Blood Oath has always stood between Eugene and Celestia, he's likely to use the "this is what my cutaway didn't show you" technique he's used a few times.)
    Last edited by Kish; 2016-09-10 at 06:00 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    (That said, like Jasdoif if I understand them, I think most likely if Rich wants to establish that more than the Blood Oath has always stood between Eugene and Celestia, he's likely to use the "this is what my cutaway didn't show you" technique he's used a few times.)
    A flashback-across-the-cutaway panel would be the way I'd expect a reveal if Eugene has always been in trouble with getting into Celestia, yes.

    I'm guessing Eugene most likely did qualify for the Lawful Good afterlife without the Blood Oath getting in the way, though, or at least Eugene wasn't aware of his disqualification; so I'm anticipating something along the lines of one or both of
    • "Well, you've got other bad spots here on your record...but because your Good deeds in life, which you conspicuously never mentioned to your offspring, contributed to preventing the destruction of the world and everyone on it; we think your life actions net out Good enough for us to grant entry."
    • "Well, you would've been accepted based on your actions in life, but....Don't give me that look, death isn't carte blanche for you anymore than it was for that lich you swore the Blood Oath against."

    I suppose it's also possible Eugene is going to do something Good enough to guarantee entry, but I have no idea what that would be.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    That said, the entire scene feels like a setup for a dramatic reveal, so I suspect we're going to find out more about the interview later on.
    Eh, I personally hope not. The Blood Oath itself was a dramatic reveal in the scope of that scene. And there was already a similar dramatic reveal in #490. Punching Eugene is only going to work as a punchline so many times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    • "Well, you've got other bad spots here on your record...but because your Good deeds in life, which you conspicuously never mentioned to your offspring, contributed to preventing the destruction of the world and everyone on it; we think your life actions net out Good enough for us to grant entry."
    • "Well, you would've been accepted based on your actions in life, but....Don't give me that look, death isn't carte blanche for you anymore than it was for that lich you swore the Blood Oath against."
    I'd find either one of those perfectly reasonable closure for Eugene, though. (Preferably the former.)
    Last edited by nleseul; 2016-09-10 at 06:57 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    Quote Originally Posted by nleseul View Post
    I'd find either one of those perfectly reasonable closure for Eugene, though. (Preferably the former.)
    The former would be the dramatic reveal, especially if it was revealed when it came up during the Order's quest to save the world: That despite how petty and selfish Eugene has been when we/Roy see him, he'd still done something Good in his life for Roy to be getting the benefit of now. How would that impact Roy, Roy's view of Eugene, Roy's feelings about how it was so easy to assume Eugene was incapable of what Eugene did....A lot of blanks to fill in, but the drama potential is there.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Evidence that the Blood Oath of Vengeance kept Eugene out of the afterlife, sure.

    The problem is that the interviewer said he didn't see anything too serious on the record, and then mentioned the Blood Oath. So either the Blood Oath didn't qualify as "too serious" for him, which would be a really hard argument to make since it kept Eugene out of the afterlife....or the earlier statement meant he hadn't seen anything too serious at that point. And in that case, assuming there was nothing else too serious on the record is speculation, to the same extent that assuming that there was something else too serious on the record is. There's simply nothing there to support a conclusion beyond "the Blood Oath is the first matter the interviewer saw that was worth drawing attention to".
    Or option 3, he was looking for "evil/chaotic acts," of which the Blood Oath was neither. After all, he started the discussion by saying "there are black marks on your record, let's take a look." The fact that he then references the Blood Oath as having a bog-standard "completion certificate" suggests that such Oaths are not inherent barriers to Celestia, but leaving them unfinished is.

    So again, not saying your conclusion is impossible, but I'm sticking with mine all the same, thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    I also wouldn't really be surprised if it turned out that what the deva had been about to say was, "I don't see any significant evil...but I also don't see any significant good. You spent part of your life adventuring, but because it was what you thought a wizard should do, not because you cared all that much about making the world a better place; you spent a while hunting a horrifyingly evil sorcerer, but only because one of his victims happened to be someone you cared about personally. In your personal life and in your marriage, this pattern continued: you fulfilled bare-minimum standards as you understood them, and didn't bother to try for more. Looks like it's Mechanus for you."

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    I fail to see why so many people assume the lapse between resurrection in 1143-1144 is any larger than any of the others. Sure, the maximum potential gap is about twice as long, but the minimum potential gap is equally null. Being killed in November 1143 and then being resurrected in February 1144 is a lot shorter than being killed in February 1144 and resurrected in November 1144, for example, and these aren't even extreme examples.
    It's not really that people are assuming that the 1143-4 gap is longer. Clearly all the later resurrections could have involved months of waiting.

    But if that's so, questions then arise: why didn't Eugene get a case review from a Deva during those months of waiting after deaths 3-6? If he did, was he allowed into heaven without completing the BOoV?? But if he had a case review and had been clearly told he wasn't allowed in due to the BOoV, why did he seem to hope he could sneak in by pretending it wasn't a problem after his final death?

    The possibility that he was resurrected too quickly for a case review, after deaths 3-6, would certainly remove those problems. (And of course, while the 1143-4 resurrection could also have been very rapid, it would have required Eugene's second death to have occurred at a very special moment, New Year's Eve).

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    My preferred speculation headcanon thing-I-made-up solution is that Eugene wouldn't have remembered the details of the interview much more than Roy remembered details of how he knew his new feat.

    Has Roy, for example, shown any direct memory of his interactions with the Deva or Archon? AFAICT he's only clearly remembered things he scryed on or saw while visiting OotSWorld. So the Deva's advice on how they'd like him to improve (on the assumption he would be resurrected) would only be present as a lingering feeling that he ought to be doing better about some things.

    If that's the case, then each time Eugene went up for review he'd be told "Look you still need to fix this BOoV thing" but each time he comes back with just some sense of its importance. For Death 3, he was still working on it, after Deaths 4-5, he gets his reminder, comes back vaguely knowing he should do something about it, but has other things on his mind and gets distracted, and only after Death 6 is he told in no uncertain terms that he really needs to do something about it.... but after being resurrected he only remembers that it really is a thing, and he responds by dropping it in Roy's lap.
    Geez, what is it with that guy and needing to figure out all the fiddly little details?

    I know, right? It's called "Suspension of Disbelief"...
    Quote Originally Posted by Everyl View Post
    Some speculation turns out to be accurate, some doesn't. I'll deal with it the same way I deal with all other speculative theories I read and/or come up with: by continuing to read the comic, and enjoying it whether the speculation turns out to be right or wrong.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    I was thinking about this again, and decided to write out my position should it come up again, so I can just link it. My position is basically this:

    I don't consider the review at the end of Start of Darkness conclusive one way or the other on Eugene's alignment.

    Therefore, I choose to judge Eugene's likely alignment based on his actions.

    And whether in life or death, in prequel stories or the main narrative, I see one thing that connects all his actions.

    Much like the connecting thread through all of Roy's actions in the comic is "responsibility" (specifically, the responsibilities of Good, to protect the weak from the strong and to stop those who would do great evil), the connecting thread through all of Eugene's actions in the comic is "self-interest."

    Everything Eugene does is about getting something Eugene wants. That's what all his actions come back to; he's gotten more extreme in this view since death, perhaps, but it carries throughout his life as well. Whether an action is Good or Evil, Lawful or Chaotic, all take a back seat to whether it gets Eugene what Eugene wants.

    Based on that disregard, and my understanding of how alignment works, I slot Eugene at True Neutral. This seems to be supported by the SRD description of True Neutral:

    A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn’t feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she’s not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way.
    "Good idea," in this case, meaning "What's good for Eugene, personally."

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I was thinking about this again, and decided to write out my position should it come up again, so I can just link it. My position is basically this:

    I don't consider the review at the end of Start of Darkness conclusive one way or the other on Eugene's alignment.

    Therefore, I choose to judge Eugene's likely alignment based on his actions.

    And whether in life or death, in prequel stories or the main narrative, I see one thing that connects all his actions.

    Much like the connecting thread through all of Roy's actions in the comic is "responsibility" (specifically, the responsibilities of Good, to protect the weak from the strong and to stop those who would do great evil), the connecting thread through all of Eugene's actions in the comic is "self-interest."

    Everything Eugene does is about getting something Eugene wants. That's what all his actions come back to; he's gotten more extreme in this view since death, perhaps, but it carries throughout his life as well. Whether an action is Good or Evil, Lawful or Chaotic, all take a back seat to whether it gets Eugene what Eugene wants.

    Based on that disregard, and my understanding of how alignment works, I slot Eugene at True Neutral. This seems to be supported by the SRD description of True Neutral:



    "Good idea," in this case, meaning "What's good for Eugene, personally."
    Contrary to common belief, Pure Selfishness is Evil, not Neutral.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    ...and self-interest is not the same as selfishness. (Though I would agree that some of Eugene's actions we've seen cross that line, but "has committed some Evil acts" isn't the same as "merits an overall Evil evaulation" either.)
    Last edited by Sir_Norbert; 2016-09-11 at 07:50 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Norbert View Post
    ...and self-interest is not the same as selfishness.
    I guess we have different dictionaries.

    (Let me be clear that I don't think Eugene's evil, because his selfishness/self-interest lacks sufficient purity, most of the time. But self-interest is certainly very much the same as selfishness, and I'd be interested to know which dictionary that is that doesn't describe them in identical or near-identical terms.)

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Contrary to common belief, Pure Selfishness is Evil, not Neutral.
    I don't think he's purely selfish, and I didn't say I did. (I think it's established in OOTS-world that no mortal is "purely" anything.) I said the defining trait that runs through his actions is self-interest. That doesn't mean he doesn't have some limits. (For example, even though he's willing to suggest he's fine with letting everyone die so he can get into Celestia, he's not willing to actively impede Roy toward that end, nor is he fine with consigning millions of dwarves to Hel to achieve that end.)

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    What Ruck said; Eugene looks out for himself a lot, but not (imo) to the level of disregard for others that would push him all the way to E.

    I think ending up in TN would fit him well. It would best reflect his questionable actions on the cloud, he would easily get to keep his oath to Roy that way, plus Julia wouldn't then be the only member of the Greenhilt family to be off by herself. And a lot of wizards seem to end up in TN, both by OotS' accounts and also by the PHB - being surrounded by wizards seems to me an ideal ending for Eugene.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeliaP View Post
    But if that's so, questions then arise: why didn't Eugene get a case review from a Deva during those months of waiting after deaths 3-6? If he did, was he allowed into heaven without completing the BOoV?? But if he had a case review and had been clearly told he wasn't allowed in due to the BOoV, why did he seem to hope he could sneak in by pretending it wasn't a problem after his final death?

    The possibility that he was resurrected too quickly for a case review, after deaths 3-6, would certainly remove those problems. (And of course, while the 1143-4 resurrection could also have been very rapid, it would have required Eugene's second death to have occurred at a very special moment, New Year's Eve).
    I'm going to speculate here that the interview we saw at the end of SoD was so cursory and covered so few serious topics that it was only an "update" covering the years since his previous resurrection. That is, as we saw with Roy, people who die for the first time get an in-depth interview with lots of ceremony around the big gates, but on subsequent deaths get an "update" to make sure that nothing has changed since the previous interview before they're allowed through the revolving door. The concerns brought up in Eugene's final interview were so minor compared to the things brought up in Roy's simply because they were only the things Eugene had been up to in his last 12 years since his previous resurrection, and Eugene had spent most of those years as a fairly quiet retired wizard.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    Quote Originally Posted by nleseul View Post
    I'm going to speculate here that the interview we saw at the end of SoD was so cursory and covered so few serious topics that it was only an "update" covering the years since his previous resurrection. That is, as we saw with Roy, people who die for the first time get an in-depth interview with lots of ceremony around the big gates, but on subsequent deaths get an "update" to make sure that nothing has changed since the previous interview before they're allowed through the revolving door. The concerns brought up in Eugene's final interview were so minor compared to the things brought up in Roy's simply because they were only the things Eugene had been up to in his last 12 years since his previous resurrection, and Eugene had spent most of those years as a fairly quiet retired wizard.
    OK, but then the question becomes: did Eugene get allowed in for Deaths 1 and 2? And at some point during the 4 successive short reviews did the Deva say "We keep reminding you of what LG really means, but you are drifting further and further into TN-land. It's gone too far now. You can't come in."

    One thing I am sure about: that having a short review over how things have changed since the last one, must yield the same result as conducting a full review from scratch, so the Deva must take the starting point as being the situation at the last review. And if the starting point for the final review was "You weren't getting in last time because you weren't really LG", then nothing minor happening since must mean "You're still not getting in now" regardless of the BOoV.
    Geez, what is it with that guy and needing to figure out all the fiddly little details?

    I know, right? It's called "Suspension of Disbelief"...
    Quote Originally Posted by Everyl View Post
    Some speculation turns out to be accurate, some doesn't. I'll deal with it the same way I deal with all other speculative theories I read and/or come up with: by continuing to read the comic, and enjoying it whether the speculation turns out to be right or wrong.
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I guess we have different dictionaries.

    (Let me be clear that I don't think Eugene's evil, because his selfishness/self-interest lacks sufficient purity, most of the time. But self-interest is certainly very much the same as selfishness, and I'd be interested to know which dictionary that is that doesn't describe them in identical or near-identical terms.)
    The "near-identical terms" part is actually the difference though, "selfishness" is a subset of "self-interest". The key feature of selfishness is putting one's own interests ahead of others; which not all definitions of "self-interest" require or even mention.

    Choosing an option you prefer, in a scenario no one else has a preference on, is self-interest but not selfishness.
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    The question isn't really whether he will get in, though. We had another thread for that discussion already.

    The question is why he wants to get in. I think stubbornness might be a big part of it, at this point.

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    Well, he knows what's in there, so it's pretty obvious why he wants to get in - that stuff is awesome. Or at the very least, off the cloud, which has no attractions save other Oathspirits.

    As for how he knows, he seems (or seemed, anyway) to be on first-name terms with the Celestials that come to the cloud to look down.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Why does Eugene WANT to get into the LG afterlife?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Well, he knows what's in there, so it's pretty obvious why he wants to get in - that stuff is awesome. Or at the very least, off the cloud, which has no attractions save other Oathspirits.

    As for how he knows, he seems (or seemed, anyway) to be on first-name terms with the Celestials that come to the cloud to look down.
    I think you've got the right of it here - Eugene is bored on the cloud, which is enough reason for him to want to get off already, and he knows it's literally paradise on the other side of the Heavenly Gates.

    I also get the sense that, well, he just thinks it's his due. That he somehow earned it by <insert action here>. Regardless of whether he actually has earned it (that's another discussion), I think it's pretty clear Eugene does carry that sense of entitlement.
    Last edited by Chei; 2016-10-04 at 12:44 PM.
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