New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 14 of 14
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2016

    Default Some clarifications on Mage Hand

    Recently started a game of 4e. All players and the GM are fairly new to role-playing in general, but we have a good grasp of the mechanics already. One thing that's stands out (to me at least) is Mage Hand. It seems ridiculously overpowered. A quick google tells me people seem divided on this, some finding it useless while others like me find it daft. Manipulating things without putting yourself in harm's way just seems ridiculous. So a couple of questions. Is the hand physical? Could it trip up something when placed behind it? Could an ally use it as a 'boost' to reach a ledge out of reach? You can't make an attack with it, but dropping certain objects from a height is legit, right? i.e, dropping a throwing hammer on a 1hp minion is going to kill it, and as a minor action this can be done several times a turn. We plan on house ruling the 'cool action' part of it anyway, but itd be nice to see the community opinion.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2016

    Default Re: Some clarifications on Mage Hand

    For an example of possibly unintended or illegal actions with mage hand, in our test game (before starting the campaign properly) I used mage hand to shove an explosive device on a timer into a baby dragons mouth, then used mage hand to tie a rope around its snout. Is this a legal use of the skill? It was certainly a fun use!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ThePurple's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Shameland (4e Forums)

    Default Re: Some clarifications on Mage Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Beard View Post
    Is the hand physical?
    It's described as a "spectral, floating hand". It's physical in the sense that it is capable of interacting with objects in the physical world but not physical in the sense that it actually has any mass, weight, etc. of its own.

    Could it trip up something when placed behind it?
    As the power is written, no, it can only interact with objects, which is a category for everything that it's a creature. I also believe that most GMs would generally agree that this includes objects on a creature as well since those objects tend to share the creature's defenses/move around with the creature if you want to try and use the "I use mage hand on the target's boot" as a workaround.

    Could an ally use it as a 'boost' to reach a ledge out of reach?
    Even if you *were* allowed to use it on a creature, mage hand can only exert 20 pounds of force. Unless that creature were less than 20 pounds, Mage Hand wouldn't be able to help them.

    You can't make an attack with it, but dropping certain objects from a height is legit, right? i.e, dropping a throwing hammer on a 1hp minion is going to kill it
    I would argue that, because you can't make an attack with it (nor can you make complex movements), the dropped hammer is going to be trivially easy to avoid and would never hit a creature aware of the incoming attack. I might allow it as a way to kill a guard as part of a Stealth-based castle invasion type skill challenge, but, in combat, it would be useless (also, you've got Magic Missile, which does more damage and automatically hits; why would you want to use Mage Hand?) except as a way to interact with an object (e.g. pull a lever, retrieve a lost weapon).

    It should be important to remember that just because a minion has 1 hp doesn't mean that they'll die to a paper cut or some other event that is painful but largely irrelevant to whether a person could fight (even the most basic human can survive being tripped, falling a few feet, or getting a bump on the head). The minion rule is the gaming equivalent of the cinematic notion that some bad guys die or are incapacitated by a single blow. It still has to be a significant blow, however; a minion-type in a movie wouldn't die just because the hero stabbed it in the hand or foot or was hit in the knee by a pebble.

    as a minor action this can be done several times a turn.
    Well, mage hand can only hold onto or manipulate a single item each turn, can't move and pick something up as part of the same action, and it takes at least a 10' fall for anything to do fall damage. As such, you have to spend a minor action to pick up the object, a move action to get to a height that will allow it to do falling damage, and only then you can spend the free action to drop it. At best, if all you do is focus on Mage Hand hammer dropping, you'd be able to drop 1.5 hammers every round, which is actually really, really inefficient.

    I used mage hand to shove an explosive device on a timer into a baby dragons mouth
    "Shoving" constitutes an attack, in my mind, so it would be trivially easy for the dragon to avoid. Unless the dragon is somehow incapable of defending itself and also has its mouth open (most creatures don't sleep with their mouth wide open enough to be able to shove an explosive device into it), you wouldn't really be allowed to do this. Even if it was asleep, the dragon would probably wake up as soon as you "shoved" the device inside (which means it could take a free action to spit it right back out).

    Also, concerning the "explosive device", what explosive device was your GM having you use? Fighting a baby dragon (and having it be a test adventure) makes me think you'd be using a low level alchemical device and the only one with a timer that I can think of is a clockwork bomb that deals 1d10 fire damage. Even if it were some other kind of alchemical device, I would still probably rule that it wouldn't instantly kill the dragon (since, you know, *dragon*) and instead have it be treated as a coup de grace (automatic crit), which wouldn't even deal that much damage considering it's an alchemical item.

    If you're talking about something on the level of modern plastic explosives, that's not really a level 1 type item.

    then used mage hand to tie a rope around its snout.
    Keep in mind, 20 pounds of force or less, so it's not really tying it tightly. Also, it's a single hand. Tying a rope with a single hand is actually extremely difficult and basically impossible if the creature you're attempting to tie up doesn't want to be tied up.

    Also, just because it all happens in the same round doesn't mean that it happens simultaneously or without *any* capacity for the creature to react. Most of those actions would awaken it pretty much immediately in my book and allow the dragon to start fighting back. Even if it couldn't open it's mouth, as the GM, I'd probably argue that the dragon could use its breath weapon or bite attack (all of which deal some kind of elemental damage) to destroy the explosive before it can go off (since, you know, it's on a timer).

    Is this a legal use of the skill? It was certainly a fun use!
    If your GM says it's legal, it's legal. It might not be legal according to the rules, but the GM is the final arbiter as far as all things rule based on concerned.
    Last edited by ThePurple; 2016-08-10 at 08:46 AM.
    4e Homebrew: Shadow Knight, Scout
    roll20: Kitru

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Some clarifications on Mage Hand

    Think you need to re-read the text. A few problems:
    It takes a minor action to conjure it/sustain it.
    It takes a minor action to pick up an object.
    It takes a move action to move it 5 squares.
    Range is 5 squares, so max distance the hand can be away from you is 5 squares.
    Attacking isn't an option, so anything that requires some sort of attack roll isn't allowed. Tying things up in combat, putting bombs in baby dragon mouths, etc...

    In other words, to conjure a Mage Hand/Sustain it, to then pick up a throwing hammer, then have it move a max of 5 squares away from you, then have it drop it = all your actions to drop a single hammer a round.

    Sure, you could have it hold the throwing hammer in advance and keep sustaining it, but that then means the party can be spotted a fair distance away due to the weird object floating in mid-air.
    Last edited by MwaO; 2016-08-10 at 09:27 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Some clarifications on Mage Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by MwaO View Post
    Think you need to re-read the text. A few problems:
    That's the HOFL mage hand. The PHB1 mage hand requires less actions and was never errata'ed.

    That said, tripping, dropping an item on someone, and stuffing a vial in somebody's mouth all falls under the header of "attacking". The hand is just not fast enough to do that against a conscious opponent.

    Manipulating a trap from outside of its reach is certainly doable, and I'd be fine with the hand giving a bonus to climb checks since you can step on it.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Some clarifications on Mage Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    That's the HOFL mage hand. The PHB1 mage hand requires less actions and was never errata'ed.
    Any power rewritten for Essentials automatically overwrites the original power. Which is usually a good thing in most cases of Wizard powers.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ThePurple's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Shameland (4e Forums)

    Default Re: Some clarifications on Mage Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I'd be fine with the hand giving a bonus to climb checks since you can step on it.
    You sure that it is actually capable of being stepped on? It's a conjuration and the rules for those specifically state "a conjuration cannot be attacked or physically affected", which would preclude the ability to step on it.

    Even if you *could* step on it, it can still only exert 20 pounds of force, which is going to be less than even a small creature would place upon it while climbing (you generally have to place at least 50% of your weight on a foothold; a gnome's lowest listed weight is 50); as soon as you tried to use it for climbing, it would either dissipate or otherwise cease functioning (however you feel like interpreting it suddenly being overloaded).
    4e Homebrew: Shadow Knight, Scout
    roll20: Kitru

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2016

    Default Re: Some clarifications on Mage Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    That's the HOFL mage hand. The PHB1 mage hand requires less actions and was never errata'ed.
    The PHB1 mage hand uses exactly the same number of actions, they are just presented in the Effect line. Its a minor action to conjure and, "As a move action, you can move the hand up to 5 squares. As a free action, you can cause the hand to drop an object it is holding, and as a minor action, you can cause the hand to pick up or manipulate a different object."

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Some clarifications on Mage Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    You sure that it is actually capable of being stepped on?
    Sure. If it can pick up things, then you can step on it. So I'm willing to give a +2 bonus for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beoric View Post
    The PHB1 mage hand uses exactly the same number of actions,
    As written, for its first minor action, you can "conjure a spectral, floating hand in an unoccupied square within range. The hand picks up, moves, or manipulates an adjacent object weighing 20 pounds or less and carries it up to 5 squares."
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ThePurple's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Shameland (4e Forums)

    Default Re: Some clarifications on Mage Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Sure. If it can pick up things, then you can step on it. So I'm willing to give a +2 bonus for this.
    Once again, even if you can step on it or interact with it, it can only exert 20 pounds of force, which is going to be significantly less than what you're going to apply to any handhold or foothold while climbing.

    Unless I'm reading it wrong, as written, the logic for conjurations is such that, by default, they can interact with you but you cannot interact with them. It's like Star Trek hologram logic: if a hologram slapped you, you would feel it and react to it, but, if you slapped a hologram that wasn't programmed to specifically react to being slapped, your hand would pass through it. Mage Hand is only programmed to pick up and move things (if it was meant to be interacted with rather than perform the interaction, it would have defenses/hp/etc), so you wouldn't be able to step on it or grab a hold of it.

    If you change it so that it can withstand movement more effectively than it can force movement while also making it so that it is both actor and reactor, the purpose it is intended for (moving things at a distance) is actually inferior to its potential for simply getting in the way.
    4e Homebrew: Shadow Knight, Scout
    roll20: Kitru

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Some clarifications on Mage Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    Once again, even if you can step on it or interact with it, it can only exert 20 pounds of force, which is going to be significantly less than what you're going to apply to any handhold or foothold while climbing.
    Of course. That's why the bonus I suggested is substantially less than that of, say, actual training in climbing (i.e. +5).

    Giving bonuses for good ideas is what I consider good DM'ing. Arguing that by real-world physics that probably might not actually work doesn't make the adventure more fun for the players involved.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ThePurple's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Shameland (4e Forums)

    Default Re: Some clarifications on Mage Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Of course. That's why the bonus I suggested is substantially less than that of, say, actual training in climbing (i.e. +5).

    Giving bonuses for good ideas is what I consider good DM'ing. Arguing that by real-world physics that probably might not actually work doesn't make the adventure more fun for the players involved.
    Eh, to me there needs to be a cut-off point, especially considering the sheer amount of general utility stuff that Arcane characters are given. If you don't place at least *some* limits on what the vast plethora of arcane powers that can be applied to a bajillion different situations, you end up with the classic "wizards can do everything with one feature/ability that other classes have to devote multiple features to". It's similar to disallowing Religion or Stealth from being used on *every single skill challenge* just because you can come up with some tangential application for it.

    I'm also talking about RAW as opposed to GM implementation. I'm not criticizing you providing a bonus (it's something that I would consider though I probably wouldn't allow because of the 20 lb limitation as much as anything else).
    4e Homebrew: Shadow Knight, Scout
    roll20: Kitru

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Some clarifications on Mage Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    I'm also talking about RAW as opposed to GM implementation. I'm not criticizing you providing a bonus (it's something that I would consider though I probably wouldn't allow because of the 20 lb limitation as much as anything else).
    I'd probably consider allowing it as an 'aid another' action for reasonable things such as that - Wizards have a bunch of powerhouse cantrips that are 'substitute Arcana for skill checks 1/enc', so a +2 here and there makes sense to me in that context.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Some clarifications on Mage Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    "wizards can do everything with one feature/ability that other classes have to devote multiple features to".
    Yes, I'd say that over the years the game has gained too many cantrips/rituals/utility powers that let you use Arcana instead of whatever other skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    disallowing Religion or Stealth from being used on *every single skill challenge* just because you can come up with some tangential application for it.
    And, of course, I know several DMs who would allow a player to use Arcana on every single SC just because "you are using magic" to solve it. In my view Arcana is a knowledge skill, it doesn't mean that you just happen to have a nondescript spell for every situation (this is similar to how religion is a knowledge skill, it doesn't mean that whoever your god is will now assist you on whatever situation you're in).
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2016-08-11 at 11:34 AM.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •