Goblins XVI: Corrupted to the Kore

[John Cribati]

Thunt's had some bad experiences with people getting offended in the past. I can't remember specifics, but I know they have happened. Mostly from twitter comments, I think. Hmm, I believe there was some girl that got mad about him trivializing rape?

It was that page after Kin banished the red demon that Golden-haired minmax had managed to force into servitude by properly guessing his name. Because the demon laughed about how he and hia friend would "dogpile on [Golden Minmax's] ass" once he died, which the person interpreted as a joke about gang rape at Kin's expense (even though the demon called for attention from "Goldilocks" before he made his statement?) and for any author to have a character (even one who was so an obviously evil individual) make such a joke in the first place, the author must think that is also funny.

[Douglas]

It was that page after Kin banished the red demon that Golden-haired minmax had managed to force into servitude by properly guessing his name. Because the demon laughed about how he and hia friend would "dogpile on [Golden Minmax's] ass" once he died, which the person interpreted as a joke about gang rape at Kin's expense (even though the demon called for attention from "Goldilocks" before he made his statement?) and for any author to have a character (even one who was so an obviously evil individual) make such a joke in the first place, the author must think that is also funny.

It was "bald turd", and "dog pile your soul". Here. As I recall, some girl who had never seen Goblins before read that one page, somehow thought he was talking to Kin even though she most definitely is not bald, and thought that "dog pile" always means "gang rape" rather than having a more general meaning of "team up against".

[Vinyadan]

There also was this:
http://goblinscomic.com/blog/hypnosis-is-bad-mkay
http://goblinscomic.com/blog/the-joke

There also is a 12-page PDF floating around the web with some detail about the follow-up of the "turd" incident. It looks like it was written by THunt, but was not posted in his blog. Maybe it comes from the forum.

[Draconi Redfir]

long and short of it; people are waaay too sensitive these days :/

[Ibrinar]

"These days" - I always find it a bit silly when people say stuff like that I mean with what time are you comparing it exactly? In the 18 century The Hunchback of Notre Dame and Les Misérables were banned for being to lascivious. (https://www.more.com/entertainment/f...s-banned-1800s link for that and a bunch of other banned works) so much of our current entertainment would be a scandal or banned for all kinds of moral depravity like sex, heresy, homosexual characters that are happy, interracial marriage, no respect for nobility. Many would cause moral outrage if they were well known and plenty hate for the author. I guess the topics that get people upset have changed but these days what you can publish without much trouble is a much wider field than it has been in the centuries before.

Many authors get messages from upset people at some point, ranging from reasonable to unreasonable, to insane nonsense. Thunt seems to be bad at dealing with it emotionally and seems to feel the need to defend himself instead of ignoring stuff. But except for the reaction it isn't an uncommon event.

[Vinyadan]

1801-1900 is the 19th century, though.

[Draconi Redfir]

"These days" - I always find it a bit silly when people say stuff like that I mean with what time are you comparing it exactly? In the 18 century The Hunchback of Notre Dame and Les Misérables were banned for being to lascivious. (https://www.more.com/entertainment/f...s-banned-1800s link for that and a bunch of other banned works) so much of our current entertainment would be a scandal or banned for all kinds of moral depravity like sex, heresy, homosexual characters that are happy, interracial marriage, no respect for nobility. Many would cause moral outrage if they were well known and plenty hate for the author. I guess the topics that get people upset have changed but these days what you can publish without much trouble is a much wider field than it has been in the centuries before.

Many authors get messages from upset people at some point, ranging from reasonable to unreasonable, to insane nonsense. Thunt seems to be bad at dealing with it emotionally and seems to feel the need to defend himself instead of ignoring stuff. But except for the reaction it isn't an uncommon event.

all i know is ten or twenty years ago you could string together a perfectly innocent comment or joke without someone actively trying to find a way to be offended by it.

I actually had someone get offended by me saying the words "Keeps things interesting" in response to them wondering out loud "why does the world keep giving me these awful headaches" before.

and that's just the stuff that's safe to discuss on giantitp.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

On the "trivializing rape" part I think this page is way worse than the bald turd thing. It wouldn't be a bad page in many other comics even. But Thunt spend such a long time on how traumatized Kin is, and linking his depictions of rape to something his mother actually went through, and then suddenly a curse that forces you to have sex every day is a lighthearted jokey moment laid out alongside growing rabbit ears and hitting yourself when someone tricks you into saying a certain word. Because being forced into sex suddenly isn't super bad if, yeah, if what? If it's not a person actually present in the room doing the forcing? The setting build up over years and years is just completely wrong for that joke. We had quite a bit of discussion about it on here as well. I'm kind of glad the comic hasn't revisited it since, but I cringe in advance for when it does.

[Traab]

Its laid out alongside having to DIE every day or else you stay dead. They both have a curse that is very much so NOT a joke, but its one they are dealing with as best they can till they can take care of it.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Its laid out alongside having to DIE every day or else you stay dead. They both have a curse that is very much so NOT a joke, but its one they are dealing with as best they can till they can take care of it.

Except it's only in the most recent comic that the dying one actually gets treated as something serious, 3 years (edit: okay, 2.5) after its lighthearted introduction, and the sex one hasn't had that treatment yet. So yeah, either it's a joke that was misplaced by being in this comic at all, or it was a "not a joke" that terribly screwed up the delivery into sounding like a joke.

Either way, I'd never even given thought to the "dogpile you bald turd thing", this one actually stood out, at least to me.

[Morgaln]

On the "trivializing rape" part I think this page is way worse than the bald turd thing. It wouldn't be a bad page in many other comics even. But Thunt spend such a long time on how traumatized Kin is, and linking his depictions of rape to something his mother actually went through, and then suddenly a curse that forces you to have sex every day is a lighthearted jokey moment laid out alongside growing rabbit ears and hitting yourself when someone tricks you into saying a certain word. Because being forced into sex suddenly isn't super bad if, yeah, if what? If it's not a person actually present in the room doing the forcing? The setting build up over years and years is just completely wrong for that joke. We had quite a bit of discussion about it on here as well. I'm kind of glad the comic hasn't revisited it since, but I cringe in advance for when it does.

The difference is that the "sex or die" curse is affecting a male character. Hunt seems to be one of those people who think rape isn't as bad if it happens to men or even that men cannot be raped. Note how Forgath even says that the curse to have sex every day is more of a curse for the woman who has sex with Bowst (in this case, Idle), not for Bowst himself. Because we all know men want it all the time with everyone... /sarcasm off

[Draconi Redfir]

Uhh... problem with both your statements.

it ain't rape. both idle and bowst are consenting adults. sure it's required to happen at least once a day or bowst dies, but they're both consenting to it in the end.

kinda hard to rape the willing yaknow?

[John Cribati]

Technically Bowst is being coerced by the curse itself, and by extension the entity that laid the curse.

[Nettlekid]

The whole thing is squicky though in that, once again, Thunt has narrated a scenario in which two people frequently have sex and the man repeatedly inflicts grievous harm to the woman. First with Goblinslayer and Kin, now with Idle and Bowst. That's a weirdly specific theme to come back to, to the point that I question why Thunt thinks it's an interesting element to add to the story or in some way deepens the relationship between Idle and Bowst. He could just as easily have had Bowst cursed with the need to drink a sapient creature's blood each day if he wanted to force intimacy between the two of them, which wouldn't have come with all the social baggage that obligatory sex does.

[Draconi Redfir]

The whole thing is squicky though in that, once again, Thunt has narrated a scenario in which two people frequently have sex and the man repeatedly inflicts grievous harm to the woman. First with Goblinslayer and Kin, now with Idle and Bowst. That's a weirdly specific theme to come back to

really doubt it's that deep. Most likely they're two unrelated plot elements that are just similar in nature and nothing more.

[Nettlekid]

really doubt it's that deep. Most likely they're two unrelated plot elements that are just similar in nature and nothing more.

It's occurred twice more than in other webcomics I follow like Unsounded or Gunnerkrigg Court. Nothing is unrelated in that it's the same author writing it, which means there's something about "guy bangs girl and then cuts her up" that Thunt likes to put in his story. That Thunt specifically thinks is worth adding to his story and that makes it better than if he hadn't added it.

[Draconi Redfir]

It's occurred twice more than in other webcomics I follow like Unsounded or Gunnerkrigg Court. Nothing is unrelated in that it's the same author writing it, which means there's something about "guy bangs girl and then cuts her up" that Thunt likes to put in his story. That Thunt specifically thinks is worth adding to his story and that makes it better than if he hadn't added it.

Well this isn't unsounded nor is it gunnerkrigg court. it's also not oots, homestuck, CAD, penny arcade, or whatever else you might read. This is Goblins, they have completely different authors with completely different thought processes. Dozens of teenagers die in Homestuck, you aren't going to say "Well this isn't like Penny Arcade AT ALL!" now are you?

and have you ever heard of correlation does not imply causation? Sure, MAYBE they're similar if you outright LOOK for similarities and really reach for it, but at the same time you may as well say that Bowst and the cursed klik's relationship is AWFULLY reminiscent of Dies Horribly and Kliks, therefore Thunt must have some form of obsession with guys wielding large and unruly weaponry who have something funky about their arm(s) being followed around by a floating ball with hands.

Just because they're similar in the loosest terms doesn't mean they're connected dude.

[Nettlekid]

therefore Thunt must have some form of obsession with guys wielding large and unruly weaponry who have something funky about their arm(s) being followed around by a floating ball with hands.

I mean...yeah, I would also make that same argument. I would say that story elements which appear multiple times in any media are enjoyed by the creator of that media. I would indeed argue that Thunt enjoys big unruly weaponry, body grafts, and his homebrew Kliks. I also think he likes creatures with huge numbers of extraneous limbs, splattered pools of ambiguous liquids, amputation, the phrase "sonuva crap," the fake number "scwillion," color-themed dungeon puzzles, you name it. I also think Thunt enjoys situations in which women are being gored and murdered by the man they're having sex with. If he didn't like it, it wouldn't be in the comic, as it wasn't in a number of other comics whose authors presumably don't like it (you seemed not to understand the point I was making there...?) For it to be in the comic multiple times means he likes it. And I am passing critique and judgment about the things that he likes, because it's not unreasonable for consumers of media to enjoy media for its stated morals (in Goblins' case: the notion of a disposable minion having a heart and soul; distilled sonder) and still object to material that is at best unpalatable and seemingly unnecessary for the state of those stated morals (in Goblins' case: Rape and violence towards women.)

Now answer something for me, weren't you just complaining that people get too angry too quickly about the stuff they read, and how everyone has to pick a fight about something mundane? If you decry that attitude, why are you getting so up in arms to insist that there's nothing wrong with Thunt including multiple sexgorings. If you're so detached from that level of overemotional obsession...what are you getting so worked up about?

[John Cribati]

I wouldn't say he "likes" it, but I can say that the concept seems, at least, to fascinate him in some way. And hell, maybe he is going to bring up how unfortunate Bowst's curse is, or maybe he is going to talk about how the whole situation is iffy when it comes to consent.

[tomaO2]

The Kin/Goblinslayer dynamic was specifically mentioned as Thunt dealing with the knowledge that his mom was also badly raped. I wouldn't be surprised if this curse thing also played into that.

[Lethologica]

Insofar as Goblinslayer/Kin and Idle/Bowst portray the same general dynamic, it must be noted that they are practically opposite approaches to said dynamic. If anything, this repetition indicates that the author is acting with care and intent, not careless indulgence.

Note also that how a character reacts to a situation is not necessarily what the author thinks is the morally flawless way to react to the situation. Forgath reacts the way he does because, well, compared to having to die every day, having sex with your friend every day doesn't sound so awful at first blush. It takes a bit of thinking for the seriousness of the implications to properly sink in, unlike "I just saw someone have their head cut off in front of me." And Idle would have had to learn to take the curses lightly, as a front if nothing else, in order to cope.

Marginally apropos: I would say that both characters are substantially coerced by Bowst's curse. Bowst directly, obviously, but Idle is effectively being threatened with the death of her friend (not to mention readiest source of daily deaths for her own curse) if she doesn't comply. We know that Idle, at least, would not be willing if not for the curse. So I don't think this is at all a case of "can't rape the willing." At the same time, it's obviously not one of the characters raping the other; they're helping each other out in a difficult situation, as friends do.

[Quild]

I'm really not convinced by Idle's curse being that bad.

First I don't know if Idle is a playing character or a NPC. In "Log Horizon", NPC dies for real when they... die, while adventurers (players) just respawn. They lose a few memories too, though.
Here, we know that there is an afterlife. Because Goblins is more or less based on D&Dverse, because there are souls, hell, and stuff... There may even be the chance of resurrection.
Death should be less horrible than in real life even for NPC.

Now, Idle has some kind of improved resurrection curse. As soon as she "die", she's back, fully healed. So what's the matter? Physical pain?
Pain does not seem constant in Goblinverse. Being tortured is painful... Fighting does not seem to be. If we compain for Idle's pain, what about Minmax and Bowst? They are meatshields! They take hits instead of others.

[Vinyadan]

I mean...yeah, I would also make that same argument. I would say that story elements which appear multiple times in any media are enjoyed by the creator of that media. I would indeed argue that Thunt enjoys big unruly weaponry, body grafts, and his homebrew Kliks. I also think he likes creatures with huge numbers of extraneous limbs, splattered pools of ambiguous liquids, amputation, the phrase "sonuva crap," the fake number "scwillion," color-themed dungeon puzzles, you name it. I also think Thunt enjoys situations in which women are being gored and murdered by the man they're having sex with. If he didn't like it, it wouldn't be in the comic, as it wasn't in a number of other comics whose authors presumably don't like it (you seemed not to understand the point I was making there...?) For it to be in the comic multiple times means he likes it. And I am passing critique and judgment about the things that he likes, because it's not unreasonable for consumers of media to enjoy media for its stated morals (in Goblins' case: the notion of a disposable minion having a heart and soul; distilled sonder) and still object to material that is at best unpalatable and seemingly unnecessary for the state of those stated morals (in Goblins' case: Rape and violence towards women.)

I just wanted you to take a look at the bolded statements, think of Holocaust survivors that wrote multiple books on the Holocaust, and come to your conclusions about whether the statements are right or wrong.

In general, I don't like Bowser and Idle. Bowser has been useless until now. Idle makes me extremely uncomfortable. There are two reasons: one is just how uncanny she looks. Look at her laughing in the page linked earlier. The second one is that her lightheartedness is out of place, and so she looks like she is in complete, total denial about what's going on. I also don't like that a sexual relationship that was started under duress is portrayed as enjoyable. Unless the relationship started before the curse, which wasn't explained (it might be, later).

Now, it's clear that the wizard (or whoever it was) that placed the curse was a rapist. There are real-world comparable cases. And I think that it's just too much. I think that Buwst and Idle look like they have nothing to do with anything Goblins has been doing, or the message it has been sending. I have no idea of whether it was meant to be a satire about "what if... PCs and DM overengineered curses were real?", or how frequent world-shattering menaces are. It sure doesn't look like a satire. Goblins hasn't looked like a satire for some time now.

I remember that Thunt had been warned by some (Patreon?) readers that that page would cause negative reactions. I wonder if they explained him why.

Anyway, if I can play the untrained armchair literary psychologist for a moment, I'd say that Idle is something Thunt wishes to be. Idle has lightheartedness as a superpower. She's relatable, intelligent, and can not only analyse hints in social situations, but also act on them in a sensible way. She goes through horrifying experiences head on, without being broken or losing her head, or even her good mood. Thunt instead has meltdowns once in a while, which are strongly related to how he thinks people see him. So she looks like "wouldn't it be good to be like her?" material.

[Draconi Redfir]

I'm really not convinced by Idle's curse being that bad.

First I don't know if Idle is a playing character or a NPC. In "Log Horizon", NPC dies for real when they... die, while adventurers (players) just respawn. They lose a few memories too, though.
Here, we know that there is an afterlife. Because Goblins is more or less based on D&Dverse, because there are souls, hell, and stuff... There may even be the chance of resurrection.
Death should be less horrible than in real life even for NPC.

Now, Idle has some kind of improved resurrection curse. As soon as she "die", she's back, fully healed. So what's the matter? Physical pain?
Pain does not seem constant in Goblinverse. Being tortured is painful... Fighting does not seem to be. If we compain for Idle's pain, what about Minmax and Bowst? They are meatshields! They take hits instead of others.

we actually don't have any proof for an afterlife in the goblinsverse, and the only evidence for a soul is the screaming heads on Kore's IME chains. We've heard of gods like herbert and maglybut, but the only evidence of them is maybe granting spells and Duv claiming to be sent by maglybut. (or however you7 spell the goblin god's name)

not to mention this is a low-magic / low-level world, resurrection of any kind is likely all but impossible.

long story short; death isn't trivial here.

[Traab]

we actually don't have any proof for an afterlife in the goblinsverse, and the only evidence for a soul is the screaming heads on Kore's IME chains. We've heard of gods like herbert and maglybut, but the only evidence of them is maybe granting spells and Duv claiming to be sent by maglybut. (or however you7 spell the goblin god's name)

not to mention this is a low-magic / low-level world, resurrection of any kind is likely all but impossible.

long story short; death isn't trivial here.

Plus the teller ritual that summons the spirits of previous goblin tellers to merge with or whatever the setup was.

[Lethologica]

I'm really not convinced by Idle's curse being that bad.

First I don't know if Idle is a playing character or a NPC. In "Log Horizon", NPC dies for real when they... die, while adventurers (players) just respawn. They lose a few memories too, though.
Here, we know that there is an afterlife. Because Goblins is more or less based on D&Dverse, because there are souls, hell, and stuff... There may even be the chance of resurrection.
Death should be less horrible than in real life even for NPC.

Now, Idle has some kind of improved resurrection curse. As soon as she "die", she's back, fully healed. So what's the matter? Physical pain?
Pain does not seem constant in Goblinverse. Being tortured is painful... Fighting does not seem to be. If we compain for Idle's pain, what about Minmax and Bowst? They are meatshields! They take hits instead of others.

Many people have similar beliefs about real life. They still take death seriously.

Pain generally seems pretty painful in Goblinverse, and it's not like anyone has trivialized Minmax's or Bowst's pain, so this whataboutism is a red herring. However...'Meatshield' is not an actual role that people actually try to fulfill. Minmax and Bowst don't try to take hits. They try to prevent other people from taking hits. It's not like they're trivializing pain by doing so. If anything, they take on those roles because they recognize that pain hurts other people. And people who inflict pain on Minmax and Bowst are doing a bad thing. Again, no one has said otherwise.

It's not necessary to distinguish Idle's pain as especially bad compared to Minmax's or Bowst's pain, but if we are to do so, note first that Minmax and Bowst can choose to stop adventuring, whereas Idle can't choose to stop having to die every day (until she has access to Remove Curse, anyway). And second, Minmax and Bowst haven't been made into the agents for their own suffering. Idle is responsible for inflicting that pain on herself (or finding someone like Bowst who will do it for her). That's particularly vile.

The only reason Idle's curse is something of a mixed blessing (and to be fair, it is a big reason) is because she's already living dangerously. When dying is a real threat, having a daily get-out-of-death-free card is quite handy.

I just wanted you to take a look at the bolded statements, think of Holocaust survivors that wrote multiple books on the Holocaust, and come to your conclusions about whether the statements are right or wrong.

In general, I don't like Bowser and Idle. Bowser has been useless until now. Idle makes me extremely uncomfortable. There are two reasons: one is just how uncanny she looks. Look at her laughing in the page linked earlier. The second one is that her lightheartedness is out of place, and so she looks like she is in complete, total denial about what's going on. I also don't like that a sexual relationship that was started under duress is portrayed as enjoyable. Unless the relationship started before the curse, which wasn't explained (it might be, later).

Idle and Bowst not being in a relationship now (according to Idle) suggests that they weren't in one before. I happen to think that the way Idle explains things on that page suggests the opposite of being in denial, but that's just me.

Idle looks uncanny because she, uh, literally is? Being an elf cursed with goblin and rabbit traits. That's still a legitimate reason to dislike a character, I just think it's weird that it came up in this context.

[Draconi Redfir]

Plus the teller ritual that summons the spirits of previous goblin tellers to merge with or whatever the setup was.

i think those were more memories and not the active souls of the previous tellers. Remember something like that being said.

[Traab]

i think those were more memories and not the active souls of the previous tellers. Remember something like that being said.

But where do they come from? We see the ritual form a gate of some sort, one that calls these imprints from some place. They may not be the actual souls but its something that remains of the previous tellers.

[Draconi Redfir]

But where do they come from? We see the ritual form a gate of some sort, one that calls these imprints from some place. They may not be the actual souls but its something that remains of the previous tellers.

true enough.

[Lord Torath]

Plus the aforementioned promise by Not Walter to dog pile MinMax 38's soul when he dies. Pretty decent proof that the afterlife is a real thing, as are souls.