Goblins XVI: Corrupted to the Kore

[Draconi Redfir]

Plus the aforementioned promise by Not Walter to dog pile MinMax 38's soul when he dies. Pretty decent proof that the afterlife is a real thing, as are souls.

okay yeah thats a good point. somehow that slipped my mind.

[Vinyadan]

And you can sell your souls to the devils.

[Nettlekid]

For someone who wanted to make very clear that he wasn't glamorizing suicide, Thunt really sounds like he's glamorizing suicide.

[The Glyphstone]

Which might be why he's making the post pre-emptively, since he's had previous experience with his intent not matching up to what gets interpreted from his writing.

[guttering flame]

Her approach for dealing with death (and proto-hell) sounds very similar to how soldiers train to withstand torture/interrogation.

[Anteros]

I dunno. If he really doesn't want to glamorize death he could just...not include stuff like this in his comic? Even though I know that psycho-analyzing someone I've never met is pointless, inaccurate, and silly...I think I agree with the people who have said that Thunt probably uses his comic as a coping mechanism. Also, I doubt most readers even read the news posts.

Then again, I disagree with a lot of the things Thunt depicts in his comics. It's his comic though, not mine.

[Ibrinar]

Well as soon as he introduced someone with that curse discussing her handling of it makes sense. He could have of course gone the route of suffering or stoic acceptance but he decided on this variant. But honestly I see nothing wrong with talking positively about dying.

[deuterio12]

In contrast in Order of the Stick itself you go to super paradise when you die if you were a goody two shoes, so that screams a bit to me "make some good actions, check with the local cleric if you qualify as good, then take some painless poison pills and enjoy eternal bliss".

[-D-]

In contrast in Order of the Stick itself you go to super paradise when you die if you were a goody two shoes, so that screams a bit to me "make some good actions, check with the local cleric if you qualify as good, then take some painless poison pills and enjoy eternal bliss".

Suicide is auto disqualifier.

[Vinyadan]

Suicide is auto disqualifier.

It seems quite common in the LG Sapphire Guard.

[Anteros]

Well as soon as he introduced someone with that curse discussing her handling of it makes sense. He could have of course gone the route of suffering or stoic acceptance but he decided on this variant. But honestly I see nothing wrong with talking positively about dying.

Nothing inherently wrong having a positive attitude about death. It's not really being positive about death though. It's being positive about suicide, which is much more morally debatable. Sure, there are extenuating circumstances in the comic, but Thunt chose to create those circumstances and write this. I can definitely see the "glamorizing suicide" angle, even if it's not what Thunt is intending.

It's also a bit worrying coming from someone with Thunt's issues with depression and his recent health worries. I work in health care and have done rotations in psych wards (for school, it's not my focus). If one of my depressed patients started writing comics about how suicide can be beautiful? You better believe that's an enormous red flag.

[-D-]

It seems quite common in the LG Sapphire Guard.

That's OOTS. How many people in OotS have been raped by a half-ranger half-tree? Or hunted by abomination from a child's nightmare?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

That's OOTS. How many people in OotS have been raped by a half-ranger half-tree? Or hunted by abomination from a child's nightmare?

The point you were replying to was about OotS though. The argument was "life may be decent in OotS, but afterlife is much better, so why not jump the queue a little?

I'm guessing one of in-universe answers is because they're different experiences that build on each other, the more you've been in life, the more you can enjoy the afterlife. Roy's little brother has a good time there, but still a very limited good time. His mother can live a much more complete experience.

Also, suicide is probably still a pretty big nono, except if it was like really honorable and/or born from absolutely inconquerable circumstances you guys, or something.

[Quild]

Why do you speak of suicide about Idle? She dies in order... Not to die.
I don't know why she had to do it without Bowst's help, but either she find a way to get killed so she can lives, either she does not and die. For real.
Which one is suicide again?

In OOTS, dwarves can pick an impossible fight to "die honorably". Is that so much better?

If you were in Idle's position, what would you do? Yes, Thunt could avoid to get here in a first place. But I, for one, like Goblins for this kind of dilemnas. This is not the story of a carewalk.

It seems quite common in the LG Sapphire Guard.

How do you figure?

[-D-]

The point you were replying to was about OotS though. The argument was "life may be decent in OotS, but afterlife is much better, so why not jump the queue a little?

I'm guessing one of in-universe answers is because they're different experiences that build on each other, the more you've been in life, the more you can enjoy the afterlife. Roy's little brother has a good time there, but still a very limited good time. His mother can live a much more complete experience.

I see. I thought OP meant Goblins, because living in Goblins probably is way worse than afterlife and carries more perils for average citizen (e.g. Kore). Life in OotS is ok, but afterlife is great, so my point is similar.

I'm sure Gods of Good in OotS are aware of circumstances, after all they have bunch of Devas/Angels scanning all people at all times. You suiciding after a short a while probably will reduce your good ratings. Saphire Guards probably have special rules about dying in disgrace (i.e. you can suicide to prevent disgrace) rather than continuing on like Miko (or whatever was her name).

[deuterio12]

I'm pretty sure that Roy deciding to take on an epic lich in a sky battle while not packing any flying/feather fall item would count as suicide.

This is, heavens open the door no matter how stupid the way you die? That just means instead of painless poison pills you can just go all LEEERRROOYYY JJJEEENNNKKIIIINNSSS against the nearest evil castle.

In the other hand Roy's father gets to wait in cloud purgatory just because of that one time oath.

[Vinyadan]

How do you figure?

A girl disembowels herself after she snaps out of Xykon's spell in the throne room, and Thanh wants to kill himself after he snaps out of Tsukiko's spell, and Haley has to stop him.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html

[Lethologica]

A girl disembowels herself after she snaps out of Xykon's spell in the throne room, and Thanh wants to kill himself after he snaps out of Tsukiko's spell, and Haley has to stop him.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html

Those are pretty bog-standard "Suicide is the only atonement for this dishonorable failure" suicides, which don't have much to do with jumping the heavenly queue. The closest we come to such a sentiment is Roy talking about the afterlife as enabling risky behavior during life (alongside the availability of Raise Dead).

[Quild]

A girl disembowels herself after she snaps out of Xykon's spell in the throne room, and Thanh wants to kill himself after he snaps out of Tsukiko's spell, and Haley has to stop him.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html

I forgot about Thanh. However he says in next panel that his head is clearing. Meaning it was not clear right before that.

The girl is also just going out of the effects of a symbol of insanity. I never really understood this "hara-kiri" on this page (nor the caped guy who gets killed without reacting for what it's worth). She could and should have attacked Xykon at this point. It was the whole idea for being there.

I think "quite common" is harsh.

[Wort]

I forgot about Thanh. However he says in next panel that his head is clearing. Meaning it was not clear right before that.

The girl is also just going out of the effects of a symbol of insanity. I never really understood this "hara-kiri" on this page (nor the caped guy who gets killed without reacting for what it's worth). She could and should have attacked Xykon at this point. It was the whole idea for being there.

I think "quite common" is harsh.

I thought the real purpose was to provide reinforcements in death. They weren’t expected to live through the encounter with Xykon.

Brad

[Vinyadan]

I forgot about Thanh. However he says in next panel that his head is clearing. Meaning it was not clear right before that.

The girl is also just going out of the effects of a symbol of insanity. I never really understood this "hara-kiri" on this page (nor the caped guy who gets killed without reacting for what it's worth). She could and should have attacked Xykon at this point. It was the whole idea for being there.

I think "quite common" is harsh.

I think that it was because they realized that they had performed or desired to perform murderous actions towards their liege or comrades, and that they believed that the only appropriate behaviour after that was to kill themselves. Thanh doesn't, because his head clears, and, as he is shown by Haley, it was just Belkar that he was about to kill.

I think it's the Legal in LG taking over, and following the customs of the land (or the samurai code) to the extreme.

The Giant has talked about the influence of movies by Akira Kurosawa on the planning of the Azure City scenes, so, if there is harakiri in his films, that could be where that came from. I personally haven't seen them.

[tomaO2]

That's OOTS. How many people in OotS have been raped by a half-ranger half-tree? Or hunted by abomination from a child's nightmare?

How many Goblins characters have been tossed into a pool of sharks every day? How many have been tortured, had their loved ones killed, and their nation threatened with total destruction until they accepted a marriage proposal, after which they were likely raped nightly? How many people have had their soul trapped for eternity in a gem? Why is it when men are forced to have sex in OOTS, it's treated as a joke (Julio's mummy rot)?

Let's be clear here. All the screwed up stuff that happens in Goblins also happens in OOTS, the only difference is that the violence looks less bad because the art is less realistic, and the worst stuff is hidden from the reader. There are still horrific monsters that will torture, and then kill you, rape still happens, slavers exist, and you can be driven to such madness that you kill off all your closest friends. I'm also sure that the evil afterlives of both comics are equally as bad.

The biggest difference is that the Order of the Stick is just plain tougher than any of the Goblins characters. There's not a single protagonist that has even gotten to level 5 yet.

[deuterio12]

I think you're underselling your point.

Goblins not only goes in more gory detail, they also spend multiple panels if not whole pages going over characters being horribly maimed, when in OotS such things are usually done in just one panel.

Not only that, most goblin characters carry around physical reminders of what happened to them. Minmax lost an eye, Forgath just lost a good chunk of his body, Complains turned half-demoniac, THACO always was missing his ear, Dies Horribly lost the arm from the same side multiple times, Chief also lost an eye early on, Kin lost half her body and also is stuck with a cursed slave collar. Most of the monsters locked in Goblinslayer's dungeon had their own collection of quite visual scars. Even when they're not actively being maimed, we're constantly reminded those characters have gone through pretty bad times. Heck, even Goblinslayer himself must've been horribly maimed some time in the past to replace half his body with those wood prosthesis.

Whereas in OotS the characters may be tortured/maimed just as often, but then they'll look just fine after a round of basic healing magic.

[-D-]

How many Goblins characters have been tossed into a pool of sharks every day? How many have been tortured, had their loved ones killed, and their nation threatened with total destruction until they accepted a marriage proposal, after which they were likely raped nightly? How many people have had their soul trapped for eternity in a gem?

Zero, by law of plot convenience. They were all saved by Julio.

Two. They were pretty happy about it though.

And for the record I would take a tank of dozen sharks, rather than one with Mr. Fingers.

Let's be clear here. All the screwed up stuff that happens in Goblins also happens in OOTS, the only difference is that the violence looks less bad because the art is less realistic, and the worst stuff is hidden from the reader.

The biggest difference is that the Order of the Stick is just plain tougher than any of the Goblins characters. There's not a single protagonist that has even gotten to level 5 yet.

No, that is not true. OotS narrative is more light hearted. Goblins is just dark. I am sure level 5+ in Goblins are just as miserable. There is a good reason people don't get to lvl 5 in Goblins.

If you are in predicament in OotS things generally improve. Goblins just get in more horrific predicament.

[Clertar]

I see her power more in the line of Edge of Tomorrow, not so much about suicide.

[SaintRidley]

Zero, by law of plot convenience. They were all saved by Julio.

Two. They were pretty happy about it though.

And for the record I would take a tank of dozen sharks, rather than one with Mr. Fingers.


No, that is not true. OotS narrative is more light hearted. Goblins is just dark. I am sure level 5+ in Goblins are just as miserable. There is a good reason people don't get to lvl 5 in Goblins.

If you are in predicament in OotS things generally improve. Goblins just get in more horrific predicament.

There's also the fact that, as interesting as Goblins is, Thunt is quite simply not a very talented writer. He's actually rather bad at it, to the point where he's quite often punching way above his weight class in terms of themes and heavy ideas (some of which he may not even be very aware that he's even brushing up against) that just can't be supported well by the rickety quality of his prose and his image layouts.

[deuterio12]

There's also the fact that, as interesting as Goblins is, Thunt is quite simply not a very talented writer. He's actually rather bad at it, to the point where he's quite often punching way above his weight class in terms of themes and heavy ideas (some of which he may not even be very aware that he's even brushing up against) that just can't be supported well by the rickety quality of his prose and his image layouts.

Thunt seems to be self-aware of that.

Indeed he should've tried to stick to the comedy aspect or at least avoid all those party splits which means we've got a bunch of different arcs advancing at crawl speed.

Also new page up, which doesn't seem to advance anything much.

[Vinyadan]

Indeed he should've tried to stick to the comedy aspect

I think that it went OK until Brassmoon. I started reading at Brassmoon, and I think that it's why I kept reading, because it was the best arch (except maybe the one at the beginning, that ends with the goblins in the open field after the fighting). After that, the characters ran out of individual motivations. They now, as a whole, simply want to reach the Goblin village (a fact that's easy to forget, BTW). So having that many characters is redundant. If the after-Brassmoon had been comedy-based, instead of Kore-based, it probably would have been better.

And yes, OotS handling of violence is completely different from that of Goblins. Goblins makes it very important to have us stare into people's last desperate, begging look of helplessness, as they are killed. It's very pervasive. Because of Kin's "evil is winning" phrase, it seems to me like the meaning of these extremely violent scenes in Goblins is "that's how the world works". It's practically part of the setting. OotS, instead, uses it to show what the characters are fighting against.

[-D-]

There's also the fact that, as interesting as Goblins is, Thunt is quite simply not a very talented writer. He's actually rather bad at it, to the point where he's quite often punching way above his weight class in terms of themes and heavy ideas (some of which he may not even be very aware that he's even brushing up against) that just can't be supported well by the rickety quality of his prose and his image layouts.

Say, what you want about Thunt, he still has a heart in the right place. I mean MinMax celebrating Kin's "birthday" was best to me best part of Goblins so far. Obviously Goblins is a passion project for Thunt, even if that passion comes out clumsily.

[deuterio12]

Say, what you want about Thunt, he still has a heart in the right place. I mean MinMax celebrating Kin's "birthday" was best to me best part of Goblins so far. Obviously Goblins is a passion project for Thunt, even if that passion comes out clumsily.

I'll agree it was a pretty good funny daawwww moment, but exactly how many strips of torturerapedeathhorrorsufferingpain did we have to endure until getting there? How many years of real time?

And then Kin got mindwiped and forgot all about the good funny daaawwww moment.

So Goblins may be a work of passion, but I would say Thunt's heart wanders. A lot.