Goblins XVI: Corrupted to the Kore

[-D-]

Baseline is: The axe was made by the demons, either the paladins were tricked, or it got past them and out into the world some other way.

How could something demons made axe not register among paladins as bad is my question?

Also, does this mean Saral Khaine was doing the right thing?

[Draconi Redfir]

*Shrugs* No idea, the axe still acted as a "prison" for all intents and purpouses, so maybe it was made using holy magic? How Demons got their hands on holy magic however is annother question.

As for Caine, i don't think so. He was still releasing the demon by being evil with it. i think the only real way to deal with the axe is to send it to annother plane with no way of escape.

[Quild]

You're misunderstanding.

Ears is saying that (he believes) the paladins did not create the axe at all, it was actually the demons who created the axe.

"You didn't curse Kore because he created the axe. He created the axe because you cursed him".

IIRC, Kore is a paladin, not a demon. And if I read correctly, Ears says (believes) that Kore created the axe.

Either tricked or forced, but in Ear's theory, Greyhill paladins probably thought that the axe was a good thing. Otherwise, they would have find a way to send it back to Hell.

The story remain weird. It would also mean that the axe's background is full of crap.
Let suppose the Greyhill Paladins are tricked to think that the demon god can escape his plane while he can't. They go to his plane (instead of fighthing him in theirs as the background makes it think even naming a place for the battle) and fight him here, but they can't destroy him completely. So they create a seal through forbidden magic (but still sacred magic?) and... The last surviving one flees the fight?
But that forbidden magic doesn't work as intended. The opposite really. The demons expected this outcome, with the Paladins crafting their very own gate to the prime material plane and stuff?
The seal worked for 1057+ years. Demons are patients, Kore is still here but never figured that he was tricked or lost the axe and couldn't find it or send it back in Hell to repair the Paladin's mistake.

If Ear's right, it mean that 81 Paladins and 22 Clerics were badly tricked...

[-D-]

If Ear's right, it mean that 81 Paladins and 22 Clerics were badly tricked...

They rolled very poorly on Sense motive or Detect Hell.

I could buy that the axe slowly corrupts you and once you are evil, it explodes and releases all demons, because it will have a corrupt paladin soul to nurture the first few.

I can't buy that clerics and paladins were tricked to confuse Prime material plane for Hell. How do you make hell look less hellish? Turn off the heat? Mute the sounds of the Damned? But if demons had a way of breaking into the world, why not do that forever? Instead of creating Axe of Deliverance?

Or maybe the demons made it, but then how does it not always register as utterly evil?

[Draconi Redfir]

thing about the axe's lore dump linked above: It could be a lie.

and idk, Kore was cursed, maybe some small ammount of that curse early on contained some mind control, so they cursed Kored, made him make the axe, bring it back to the material plane, and then drop it off in a shop somewhere before buggering off and letting the domination effect wear off somewhere. By the time Kore comes back to his senses, the axe is gone, and he figures th only way he can prevent it from working as the demons intended is to remove all evil from the relm.

[Lizard Lord]

Or maybe the demons made it, but then how does it not always register as utterly evil?

The Axe DOES register as utterly evil. It made Ears cry out in pain when he first saw it and it was why he believed the time doubles were evil. Its just that the info dump that the axe gives to paladins claims that it registering as evil is a feature to draw paladins to it so that they can come in contact with it and get the info dump.

[-D-]

The Axe DOES register as utterly evil. It made Ears cry out in pain when he first saw it and it was why he believed the time doubles were evil. Its just that the info dump that the axe gives to paladins claims that it registering as evil is a feature to draw paladins to it so that they can come in contact with it and get the info dump.

But how could it just give lore dump to paladins and they never doubting it. Also it irradiates evil, only if the prison is weakened.

Ok, sure he could believe his time double was evil, but everyone in the room? Does he register everyone all the time as evil?

[Draconi Redfir]

The axe is lying with a very convincing lie, magic is also probably involved.

Think of the evil in the axe as a gas. When the axe broke, it started leaking out, by the time Ears was able to use detect evil on the future constructs, the evil-gas had already surrounded them, making it appear as if all of them were evil.

[-D-]

The axe is lying with a very convincing lie, magic is also probably involved.

Think of the evil in the axe as a gas. When the axe broke, it started leaking out, by the time Ears was able to use detect evil on the future constructs, the evil-gas had already surrounded them, making it appear as if all of them were evil.

Ah, yes, the Wizards did it defense.

I'm curious, wouldn't at least one Paladin attempt to get rid of the Axe, since you know it contains A ****ING DEMON PRINCE, and the plan to protect is very vague at best. Do good deeds and pray that it never falls into wrong hands... Wouldn't at least one of them just chug it into Bag of holding (then cut the bag in two), or the nearest Abyss pit? I mean ALL Paladins can't be that retarded.

[Lizard Lord]

I mean...sure there are plot holes here if you look for them. No one ever said Thunt's writing was perfect.

[Vinyadan]

I see a problem with these theoretical plot holes: Kore is hard and very powerful. I can see him jumping into the Abyss and coming back with the axe. I can also see the denizens of the Abyss coming back with the Axe, we have seen demons before.
Who knows, maybe a previous holder used a bag of holding, but he was killed and looted by someone who really wanted that armour after he found out about it and so kept using the axe.

I think Ears has understood a lot of things, but I am also sure he is lacking a lot of info and some of his deductions may be off, but he sure is closer to the truth now.

[Kantaki]

Part of me wants to suggest to throw the axe into heaven, just to see what happens, but A) I'm not sure that place exists in the Goblins-verse and B) even if it exists actually doing so would almost certainly have catastrophic consequences.
On the other hand the world can hardly get worse and it might keep the axe sealed...
Nah, it would just turn heaven into another part of hell. And that strikes me as a somewhat... less than ideal outcome.

[Draconi Redfir]

Ah, yes, the Wizards did it defense.

Oh please. like any midevil fantasy universe has NOT used the "Magic helps too" defense. really. the universe literally contains magic that can do almost anything, it's not too out there to think that something that we know for a fact is magical, might contain *Gasp!* MAGIC!

[Quild]

I mean...sure there are plot holes here if you look for them. No one ever said Thunt's writing was perfect.

That being said, I think the biggest flaw in Thunt's writing is the need for exposition with some big wall of texts, comics or not.
But I find Thunt's writing pretty solid otherwise.

I like his lore, I like his dungeons, I like his characters, I like his story, I like his plots, I like his sense of continuity.

I don't like the scornful attitude of some about the "I'm sad" part of Goblins. Goblins is dark and creepy, deal with it.
I'm sad myself to think that this sometimes can be a reflect of Thunt's general feelings and wish him the best moral state he can have (as I wish to anyone that I like or don't). Remember the creepy doll thing...

So I wouldn't call for a plot hole before knowing the end of it.


Regarding Kore's Curse:
The demon doesn't say anything about Kore's curse and the axe being related. Since Kore is called a "Prissan", I figured that this was another clue to my main theory:
Kore is cursed and needs to destroy Evil. All Evil. Even the slightest one. Causing him, somehow, to commit evil acts. If he stops his murders or spare someone or ignore a quest, he would "break" and free demons, far worse than he is.

Maybe Kore was cursed way before the creation of the axe. He was sent back to the Prime Material Plane and became the gate for the Demon God. The other Greyhill Paladins and the clerics helped him to fight that demon and used Kore's Curse (forbidden magic) to create the second Prissan. Now, I don't see why the first Prissan would still exist in that scenario, but that's a lower hole to fill in the plot... Let see what Thunt has in mind.

[-D-]

Oh please. like any midevil fantasy universe has NOT used the "Magic helps too" defense. really. the universe literally contains magic that can do almost anything, it's not too out there to think that something that we know for a fact is magical, might contain *Gasp!* MAGIC!

Except D&D setting, kinda runs on the whole - logical magic and narrative (this isn't Nobilis). You generally don't encounter Wizards throwing out Fireballs, Dominate Person, while wearing full plate armor. Nor are Fighters generally able to cast Time Stop, Blink, Evard's Tentacles, etc.

But most important, the author kinda broke his implicit promise of not lying in his descriptions if Ears is correct. If that is fake, what else is fake?

Maybe Forgath just wrote things on his helmet, because he had Intelligence as dump stat and had to write to remember which part goes where. Then a wizard increased his Int and fabricated memories so he feels less bad about killing his father while trying to put helmet on his breastplate. Vigorously.
Maybe PsiMinMax just does everything for lulz and has a really edgy explanation... Who knows?

[Starbuck_II]

Ah, yes, the Wizards did it defense.

I'm curious, wouldn't at least one Paladin attempt to get rid of the Axe, since you know it contains A ****ING DEMON PRINCE, and the plan to protect is very vague at best. Do good deeds and pray that it never falls into wrong hands... Wouldn't at least one of them just chug it into Bag of holding (then cut the bag in two), or the nearest Abyss pit? I mean ALL Paladins can't be that retarded.

Wouldn't a bag of devouring be a better thing to chuck it into?

[Draconi Redfir]

Except D&D setting, kinda runs on the whole - logical magic and narrative (this isn't Nobilis). You generally don't encounter Wizards throwing out Fireballs, Dominate Person, while wearing full plate armor. Nor are Fighters generally able to cast Time Stop, Blink, Evard's Tentacles, etc.

Okay, but assuming the theory is correct, we aren't DEALING with wizards and fighters, we're dealing with FREAKING DEMONS! who generally have a lot more power then normal folk.

But most important, the author kinda broke his implicit promise of not lying in his descriptions if Ears is correct. If that is fake, what else is fake?

I... what? "The Author" hasn't lied to us about anything. What the Axe's page said is truely what the axe tells ears. What Ears just said is what he truely thinks is the case right now. The AXE may be lying, but i fail to see how this is the author lying ooc about anything. the two are not related.
Plus: Geeze, i don't know, it's a story. Dies' arm wasn't 100% true either, we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Maybe Forgath just wrote things on his helmet, because he had Intelligence as dump stat and had to write to remember which part goes where. Then a wizard increased his Int and fabricated memories so he feels less bad about killing his father while trying to put helmet on his breastplate. Vigorously.
Maybe PsiMinMax just does everything for lulz and has a really edgy explanation... Who knows?

Really don't like theories do you?

[-D-]

Okay, but assuming the theory is correct, we aren't DEALING with wizards and fighters, we're dealing with FREAKING DEMONS! who generally have a lot more power then normal folk.

I never knew Demons were that good at fooling paladins. Or that Paladins were that stupid.

I... what? "The Author" hasn't lied to us about anything. What the Axe's page said is truely what the axe tells ears.

It's given in same way any info dump was. This implies other info dumps could be wrong.

Really don't like theories do you?

I'm fine with theories. But not with consistent settings behaving inconsistently.

[Kantaki]

I never knew Demons were that good at fooling paladins. Or that Paladins were that stupid.

Well... they are always lawful good.
I think Lord Helmet had something to say about that.

It's given in same way any info dump was. This implies other info dumps could be wrong.

Meh, any information given by a character (or in this case a object) in-universe to other characters carries the risk that it might be somewhat unreliable.
The exposition guy could have a agenda, be wrong or... I dunno, accidentally misleading.

I'm fine with theories. But not with consistent settings behaving inconsistently.

I don't see the inconsistency. I mean would you prefer if we had been told this earlier and watched the characters unknowingly lugging around what we know to be an artifact of doom? Or if A new Hope had a subtitle telling us „Actually the guy in black is farmboy’s dad. The crazy old eremit is lying”?

I don't see the problem with misleading exposition to preserve a surprise like this (or the suspense. Many stories would be boring if they don't hide/lie about stuff until the time is right). Especially if the protagonists don't know either.

[Lethologica]

I'm fine with theories. But not with consistent settings behaving inconsistently.

The Axe infodump has a built-in caveat, in that it's stated to be an infodump by the Axe. While it's possible the author will decide to make other infodumps (which lack that exception) into lies, there is a perfectly consistent formulation that doesn't lead to that conclusion. As such, your problem seems to be more that you simply don't trust Thunt to follow this formulation, which is between you and Thunt.

On the other hand, I would be interested to hear which existing infodumps you no longer trust now that the Axe infodump is shown to be untrustworthy. I haven't crawled the Goblins archive in a long time, so I may well be missing several infodumps that share characteristics with the Axe infodump.

[-D-]

The Axe infodump has a built-in caveat, in that it's stated to be an infodump by the Axe.

It's not too different than Shield of Wonder info dump. Maybe Shield of Wonder is a lie and number 43 is actually adds sugar to your coffee.

[Ibrinar]

Maybe it is, do you have reason to believe it is beside it being possible? Because in general it is possible for any information you get in a story to be wrong, we just generally assume most things are true because many authors rarely bother adding errors or lies to info dumps. Except when characters are supposed to act under wrong infos like in this case. It doesn't invalidate the other lore updates anymore than it invalidates all statements ever made in the comic. At most it tells us that Trunt does use the "working under wrong infos plot" so he might use it again.

[Vinyadan]

It's not too different than Shield of Wonder info dump. Maybe Shield of Wonder is a lie and number 43 is actually adds sugar to your coffee.

Maybe it adds coffee to your sugar, wouldn't that be nasty.

[-D-]

Maybe it adds coffee to your sugar, wouldn't that be nasty.

Yeah, but coffee doesn't cause diabetes. /troll logic

[Lethologica]

It's not too different than Shield of Wonder info dump. Maybe Shield of Wonder is a lie and number 43 is actually adds sugar to your coffee.

After the amount of hassle it's been trying to find the Shield infodump, nothing in the images I've found suggests it's knowledge being passed on by any part of the Goblins universe. Perhaps you could explain your reasoning for the comparison?

[Emperor Time]

After the amount of hassle it's been trying to find the Shield infodump, nothing in the images I've found suggests it's knowledge being passed on by any part of the Goblins universe. Perhaps you could explain your reasoning for the comparison?

It abilities were very interesting with the most interesting one was that it could replicate which means a second one could still be out there somewhere.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

The axe infodump is knowledge passed on by the axe. It's presented in such a way that we'd trust it, because we have nothing else to go in, but it could all be a lie.

The shield of wonder infodump was I think a set of instructions on how to use the shield in your own game. It's very out of universe, and while Thunt could have technically used a different shield of wonder in the comic, that would be a pretty lame reveal. "Haha, I told you it was A but it was B!" The axe meanwhile, or whoever created the axe, could have a good in universe reason for lying to the characters, and we get our information through those characters.

[Starbuck_II]

They rolled very poorly on Sense motive or Detect Hell.

I could buy that the axe slowly corrupts you and once you are evil, it explodes and releases all demons, because it will have a corrupt paladin soul to nurture the first few.

I can't buy that clerics and paladins were tricked to confuse Prime material plane for Hell. How do you make hell look less hellish? Turn off the heat? Mute the sounds of the Damned? But if demons had a way of breaking into the world, why not do that forever? Instead of creating Axe of Deliverance?

Or maybe the demons made it, but then how does it not always register as utterly evil?

I think only devils can invade the material plane in Goblins.
Demons are trapped out. So they made a plane. Spent Eons disguising Hell. Thus when they tricked some clerics/Pals, it worked.

[BannedInSchool]

New Comic: Not as much talking this page. Hmm, so a big shift in the comic, eh?

[Landis963]

New Comic: Not as much talking this page. Hmm, so a big shift in the comic, eh?

If they're smart, all they need to do is get an unstable portal to hell and toss in the axe as soon as it opens. However, they are not that smart, so yes, Fumbles, Ears is actually planning to go to hell.