Rogue One: Many Bothans Died to Bring Us This New Trailer

[hamishspence]

I think what it really solve is not the presence of the flaw, but the reason Princess Leia talked about it knowing there was a flaw to exploit.

And Leia still sounds uncertain that there is a weakness:

Princess Leia: At least the information in R2 is still intact.
Han Solo: What's so important? What's he carrying?
Princess Leia: The technical readouts of that battle station. I only hope that when the data's analyzed a weakness can be found. It's not over yet.

Which fits with them only having Jyn's word for it that Galen did put in a weakness.

If Tagge knows about Galen's suspicious behaviour right before his death, his fears also work quite well:

Tagge: ... it is possible, however unlikely, that they might find a weakness and exploit it.

[JoshL]

It's also possible that Galen is overselling the "trap" he built in. He recognized the weakness for what it was, and maybe didn't bring it to anyone's attention, but it's not something he put in. To asuage his guilty conscious, he says, maybe even to his self, that he is sabotaging the death star. Telling his daughter where to steal the plans, and giving the station a code name she would recognize certainly counts as a redeeming act. And it's not like you would have seen the exhaust vent by flying around, so you do need the plans. Knowing that your work is going to literally destroy planets and everything that lives on them is certainly guilt enough to convince yourself you are doing more than you are to stop it.

And speaking of extinction events, man, that slow horror of watching those Star Destroyers...

[Cikomyr]

I really love the sequence of events, if seen from a normal citizen, and how the Empire could spin it.

- Subject governments of the Empire have amassed a fleet and declared open rebellion by striking an imperial facility.
- Following this clear show of escalation, and meaning to placate local government, the Emperor has reluctantly dissolved the centralized political authority of the Empire, and gave each star system full authority without inteference from the (now abolished) Senate.
- (propaganda) wit Alderaan declared independence from the Empire/open support for armed violence
- the Empire, seeing that even FULL autonomy, was not enough to calm the dangerous radicals of Alderaan, decided to destroy the planet.
- the Rebels retaliated with a terrorist strike against millions of Imperial soldiers.

(Again, as seen per a random Imperial citizen's PoV)

[Hopeless]

And here I thought Obi-Wan met a rebel collaborator aboard who gave him the frequency to allow missiles to home straight into the interior of the Death Star and set off a system Palpatine had secretly built in case Tarkin turned on him?

So when Luke switched off his targeting computer whilst listening to Obi-Wan's force Ghost he fired missiles that were homing in on a signal inside the Death Star itself so it wasn't a miracle shot but Tarkin's hubris catching up with him!

[Peelee]

I think what it really solve is not the presence of the flaw, but the reason Princess Leia talked about it knowing there was a flaw to exploit.

The entirety of ANH rested on the assumption that there WAS a flaw. What if after all, they analyzed the plans and.. discovered the thing has no problem to exploit?

Why did a bunch of rebel technicians have been able to discover in 2 days what the Imperial engineers failed to see in 10 years?

.....the same engineers who
A.) Ray shielded the exhaust port, strongly implying that they new it was a weak point, and
2.) Told Tarkin there was a danger after literally minutes of the rebels attack?

Those silly, unknowing engineers.

[Admiral Squish]

Spoiler

Show

One thing I particularly liked about the movie what the way it sorta shifted your perspective on the rebellion.
It wasn't a GOOD organization. They were doing things for a good cause, ultimately, but the first half or two-thirds of the movie was all about the dark crap they had to do to make it happen. Shooting the collaborator, ordering the dad killed, the extremes that the splinter group went to... You don't beat something like the empire in open warfare without doing some seriously shady stuff. The splinter rebels were kinda blatantly comparable to middle eastern terrorist groups.
But as the movie progresses, you sorta see the heart come out. People sacrificing themselves for the good of others, a willingness to defy orders if it's the right thing to do...
The rebellion at the start of the movie was rapidly running out of hope, running out of the idealism that started the rebellion in the first place. Their alliance is full of discord and disagreement, some of them even wanting to just give up. At the end, they have a chance, a slim one, but still, a chance, and that hope brings the movement as a whole back from the edge.

[pendell]

.....the same engineers who
A.) Ray shielded the exhaust port, strongly implying that they new it was a weak point, and
2.) Told Tarkin there was a danger after literally minutes of the rebels attack?

Those silly, unknowing engineers.

Fun fact: Once upon a time I worked with electronic counter measures (ECM). I was told that most of the ways to jam, spoof, or otherwise foul up radar was to exploit a manufacturing error that *we* knew about that *they* -- the original builders -- did not. That's why it was classified.

At any rate, although there are many implausible things in that movie, that entire sequence with the plans was actually extremely plausible.

First of all, the existence of the flaw in the first place. Of *course* there's a flaw. Give me any machine of any kind more complicated than a screwdriver, you're going to find any number of flaws, vulnerabilities, and mistakes to exploit. I know, because as a software engineer it is my job to fix those issues. Across three different jobs and multiple different products, however many tickets I patch the trouble list just keeps growing. Hardware isn't much different, but it's a *lot* harder to patch in the field.

Second, it's entirely reasonable that the rebel techs could find *something* to exploit because , unlike the original engineers, they were not working against a specification or potential threats. They knew what they had on hand, and they had an extremely good reason to find *something* which would work in the time and tools they had. They found one -- an extremely low-probability chance that was pushing the boundaries of the technology that they had , a shot 'impossible' for their targeting systems.

By contrast, the original engineers weren't thinking about an attack by snub fighters at all -- all the Death Star's shielding and defenses were designed for combat against heavy capital ships like the Star Destroyer. It appears, in the original movie, that the rebels were flying the equivalent of Sopwith camels armed with machine guns against WWI battleships -- they could not damage the larger vehicles and posed no threat to them. The engineers , likewise, weren't even thinking about starfighters as any kind of real threat. Tarkin wasn't either, or he certainly wouldn't have entered the Yavin system unescorted -- and he would at least have launched ALL fighters and had them on CAP before the battle started.

At any rate, the attack occurs and some bright engineer asks "Odd. Why are those fighters flying down *that* particular trench?" So they look at what's there, compare to what the fighters are capable of, and realize what they're aiming for. They then report to Tarkin the possibility of the station's destruction.

From a gambler's perspective, Tarkin made the right call. As discussed earlier, it's a ray-shielded port and it would take a one-in-a-million golden-bb shot to actually destroy the station. Risks must be taken in war, and any officer worth zir salt would happily gamble on a one-in-a-million chance if it's in zir favor. Normally, you're happy to get odds of three-to-one.

So that part was actually plausible; it's the laser swords and what not that are ridiculous.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Devonix]

Exactly, that's why it didn't need to be explained away as sabotage. Everything else was great, just have Her father be an engineer who knew about the possible flaw. But having him be somene who worked for years on it and put the flaw in as part of a master revenge plan... that's a bit silly.

[BRC]

Exactly, that's why it didn't need to be explained away as sabotage. Everything else was great, just have Her father be an engineer who knew about the possible flaw. But having him be somene who worked for years on it and put the flaw in as part of a master revenge plan... that's a bit silly.

Not really? People have been making fun of the Thermal Exhaust Port Of Doom for 30+ years now.

Like, sure, it didn't "Need" explaining. Flaws happen, sometimes catastrophically, especially with a machine of unprecedented size and complexity. But does it take anything away to have it be a subtle piece of sabotage, rather than a flaw he discovered.

In the context of the other movies, the origin of the flaw isn't relevant.
In this movie, it makes Galen an ultimately heroic character, since he rejoined the project with the intention of sabotaging it. Had he rejoined the project anyway (Despite, you know, them killing his wife and not having his daughter as leverage), and stumbled upon the flaw, that would have put him in very different light.

Finally, what's "Silly" about the flaw being part of a revenge plot? The flaw was a catastrophic one, and Galen had more than adequate means, motive, and opportunity. Just because we should assume stupidity before malice doesn't mean that malice isn't a perfectly acceptable explanation. Galen's sabotage is just another act of heroism leading up to the death star's destruction.

[Cikomyr]

.....the same engineers who
A.) Ray shielded the exhaust port, strongly implying that they new it was a weak point, and
2.) Told Tarkin there was a danger after literally minutes of the rebels attack?

Those silly, unknowing engineers.

Yes. Those very engineers who figured the flaw only, and only when the Rebels fighters started aiming for that specific location.

Intel analysts were going "why would they attack THERE?" And figured this out.

Otherwise, why wouldnt the Imperials spend the last 5 years running the Death Star's specs through the same FindTheWeakness software the Rebels obviously had?

The idea that the Rebels knew where/what to look for makes the whole thing more plausible. Because the Imperials also immediately picked up on it the moment they knew where to look for.

[Peelee]

Not really? People have been making fun of the Thermal Exhaust Port Of Doom for 30+ years now.

Like, sure, it didn't "Need" explaining. Flaws happen, sometimes catastrophically, especially with a machine of unprecedented size and complexity. But does it take anything away to have it be a subtle piece of sabotage, rather than a flaw he discovered.

In the context of the other movies, the origin of the flaw isn't relevant.
In this movie, it makes Galen an ultimately heroic character, since he rejoined the project with the intention of sabotaging it. Had he rejoined the project anyway (Despite, you know, them killing his wife and not having his daughter as leverage), and stumbled upon the flaw, that would have put him in very different light.

Finally, what's "Silly" about the flaw being part of a revenge plot? The flaw was a catastrophic one, and Galen had more than adequate means, motive, and opportunity. Just because we should assume stupidity before malice doesn't mean that malice isn't a perfectly acceptable explanation. Galen's sabotage is just another act of heroism leading up to the death star's destruction.

And those people are wrong. Just like people who make fun of stormtrooper aiming. Yeah, it's an easy joke to make, but it's not actually supported by the films.

The thermal exhaust port was ray-shielded, so they had to use proton torpedoes. So, right off the bat, there's already protection around the exhaust port. Then, they had literally tons and tons of gun emplacements around it, and who knows how many TIE fighters to throw into point defense against small ships. And even then, according to one of the pilots in the Rebellion (who just happened to be the only non-main character to survive all major battles in the trilogy as an active combatant) says the shot is impossible, even for a computer. Sure, some cocky farmboy claims he can make it, but later on, we actually see a figher pilot (who is the leader of his squadron, and thus likely a seasoned veteran) totally miss the shot, even with his targeting computer. Luke was able to make it because he was a goddamn space wizard who used a power that was realistically unavailable to practically everyone in the galaxy who wasn't the Emperor or the Emperor's BFF.

Now, the revenge plan not only requires a virtually impossible shot on a very well-defended station, but it also requires the Rebellion to be able to find a weakness. Now, keep in mind, the flaw built in was explicitly called out as the destruction of the station if the reactor is hit. The reactor was never targeted, the exhaust port was. Which was completely left out of the "revenge" plan. So in order to hit the damn thing to begin with, they Rebels have to find an actual flaw that El Revenge-o doesn't even take into consideration. If that hadn't existed, then his revenge reactor would still be in place, without any way to get to it. Yeah, stellar plan there.

Even assuming he did design the thermal exhaust port in a way to allow the chain reaction to hit the reactor and blow the station, then his plan still revolves around the Rebels getting access to the plans, which they could only do because his daughter stole an Imperial shuttle (without his knowledge), then stole it from the Rebels (without his knowledge), then the Rebels intercepted transmissions saying that Jyn and Co. were able to infiltrate the base (without his knowledge), then an admiral happened to be all gung-ho on taking action and flew out to help, again against the wishes of the entire rest of the command structure of the Rebel Alliance (without his knowledge), then the ground team had to succeed in a large number of increasingly difficult challenges just to beam the plans off-planet to the fleet (without his knowledge), and then the main flagship, which was apparently the only ship in the fleet that could receive the plans (without his knowledge).

Yeah. Great plan there. There's more moving parts in these mechanations than there are in a a damn gear factory that makes more gears. But wait, you say, all this wasn't his plan, because he didn't even have a plan. His entire revenge was, "Hey, I put a weak spot in a place that you have no realistic way to access, even if you had the schematics, which you don't. Hahahaha! Revenge is a dish best served limp and ineffective!"

Yes. Those very engineers who figured the flaw only, and only when the Rebels fighters started aiming for that specific location.

Intel analysts were going "why would they attack THERE?" And figured this out.

Otherwise, why wouldnt the Imperials spend the last 5 years running the Death Star's specs through the same FindTheWeakness software the Rebels obviously had?

The idea that the Rebels knew where/what to look for makes the whole thing more plausible. Because the Imperials also immediately picked up on it the moment they knew where to look for.

Stop ignoring that the port was shielded, and you'll start to have the foundations of an argument.

[hamishspence]

Presumably, he wanted Bodhi to carry his message direct to the Rebellion, which is why Bodhi is captured on Jedha by Saw Gerrara in the first place.

[Peelee]

Presumably, he wanted Bodhi to carry his message direct to the Rebellion, which is why Bodhi is captured on Jedha by Saw Gerrara in the first place.

Good point. The last paragraph I wrote in that takes care of it, though.

[-Sentinel-]

I just saw Rogue One, and I had a great night. I didn't expect the last act to be quite so action-packed; I thought the theft of the plans would play out as a caper, like Ocean's Eleven IIIIIIN SPAAAAACE, with perhaps some action near the end as the plan fell apart. Not complaining or anything, I love action scenes; it's just an observation.

I'm very cool with all the character deaths. I was kind of expecting it. Very much fits the tone and themes of the movie.

I may need to see the movie again and wait for some time before I pass definitive judgment, but I think I prefer Rogue One over Force Awakens. The latter, while entertaining, seemed afraid of taking chances and clung too tightly to familiar elements. I hope future stand-alone Star Wars movies are more in the style of Rogue One.


One thing though...

I've seen people complain that CGI Tarkin looked bad. But I, for one, was actually blown away by how far we've come in creating life-like CGI characters. Am I too easily impressed, or are some people just impossible to please? (I'll freely admit I'm less difficult than many when it comes to the quality of special effects.)

[hamishspence]

His role was as creator of the weapon component of the thing first and foremost, as a specialist in kyber crystals. Other components, like turret defences, he wouldn't have any say over - so, he could only sabotage the stuff he could control - then, try and let the Rebels know what had been sabotaged, while at the same time ensuring the Empire would not know until it was too late.

As a scientist rather than a soldier, he may have underestimated just how much talent (and The Force) would be required to take the thing down.

[BRC]

I mean, the movie's central theme is Hope in the face of overwhelming odds.

Galen Erso put the flaw in, because it's what he could do, even if chances were pretty low that it would actually lead to anything.

He dispatched the Pilot to bring his message to the one Rebel he knew: Saw Guerra. He may not have known that Saw was, at this point, an extremist cut off from the rest of the rebellion, or he may have just had no other option (it's not like he knew that Bail Organa was backing the rebel alliance).

So yes, get the message to Saw, who gets it to the Alliance, who steal the plans and then blow up the death star, it's a long shot, but Star Wars has ALWAYS been about Long Shots. Just about every movie boils down to "It's a long shot, but it's the only chance we have".

Galen Erso
"Okay, I need to build this subtle trap into the death star, hope that I can get a message to Saw, who hopefully tells the rebels, who hopefully steal the plans and are able to get in close and make the shot".
Rouge one
"Okay, we have the message. Hopefully we can get onto the planet, hopefully we can get inside the secure facility. Hopefully we can FIND the plans. Hopefully we can GET the plans. Hopefully we can get them to the Rebels. Hopefully the Rebels can get in close and make the shot".
Episode IV: "We have the plans. Hopefully we can get in close and make the shot".


As for the port being ray-shielded, that doesn't necessarily mean that they knew it was a "Blow up the station" button. They just knew it was an opening and a way past the armor.

Lets Consider the idea that you're an imperial engineer. You have TONS of resources, and you're preparing for the assumption that the Death Star is going to be attacked by a massive fleet, which will be deploying bombers and fighters and the like. You don't know that Galen Erso has hidden a giant weak point in this particular exhaust port, but you do know that this is an exhaust port connected to the reactor system, which means it would be a bad thing if fighters could shoot down it. Not "Blow up the Station" bad, but bad, nonetheless. Perhaps it could cause enough damage to tilt the battle in the rebel's favor, as their capital ships blast the thing apart by conventional means, especially if several such ports get hit.

So, you defend this weak point, you put on ray-shielding, and set up some point defense turrets.

They knew it was a weak point, they just didn't know exactly HOW weak.

Also, you're assuming that was the only such port on the station. It was the one Galen Erso set up as a trap, but maybe there were hundreds of thermal exhaust ports spread throughout the station, each one with ray-shielding and defense turrets, because the engineers recognized that thermal exhaust ports, by their very nature as a hole in the station's armor, were a potential weak point.

[Cikomyr]

Stop ignoring that the port was shielded, and you'll start to have the foundations of an argument.

I am not ignoring anything. The port was shielded against rays only. So it needed torpedoes.

Thats makes the flaw harder to exploit, and probably easier to hide for the engineer who put it there.

But the Death star is one massive, uberlarge installation. How can you comb its entire schematics to find the single weakness in a few days/hours while the people who designed the thing and had th schematics for way longer did not figured it out?

I like the idea that the flaw was hidden in the sheer scale of information that are those schematics. And only a direct clue as to its existence would have made it appear in a research.

[hamishspence]

One thing though...

I've seen people complain that CGI Tarkin looked bad. But I, for one, was actually blown away by how far we've come in creating life-like CGI characters. Am I too easily impressed, or are some people just impossible to please? (I'll freely admit I'm less difficult than many when it comes to the quality of special effects.)

Seconded. It might have been a little noticeable in the first shot - but it was good enough for me to stop thinking about it very quickly.

[Cikomyr]

Lets just say that any military design that blows up because of a single shot taken from the outside that does not need to bypass armor is majorly flawed.

It would be like if i could make a modern Aircraft Carrier by managing a 1 in a 1,000,000 shot with my rifle. There was a really major design problem along the way.

And you can say "oh but it was shielded against pellets" to which I answer: but it still vulnerable to slugs.

Crippling the Deah Star? Damaging its firing mechanism? Maybe. But making the whole thing ASPLODE? That is MAJOR

[Peelee]

His role was as creator of the weapon component of the thing first and foremost, as a specialist in kyber crystals. Other components, like turret defences, he wouldn't have any say over - so, he could only sabotage the stuff he could control - then, try and let the Rebels know what had been sabotaged, while at the same time ensuring the Empire would not know until it was too late.

As a scientist rather than a soldier, he may have underestimated just how much talent (and The Force) would be required to take the thing down.

That, I'll agree with.

I am not ignoring anything. The port was shielded against rays only. So it needed torpedoes.

Thats makes the flaw harder to exploit, and probably easier to hide for the engineer who put it there.

But the Death star is one massive, uberlarge installation. How can you comb its entire schematics to find the single weakness in a few days/hours while the people who designed the thing and had th schematics for way longer did not figured it out?

I like the idea that the flaw was hidden in the sheer scale of information that are those schematics. And only a direct clue as to its existence would have made it appear in a research.

Except you are ignoring it. It was shielded. They put a shield on it. This means that they saw that it was a weakness, and covered that weakness. Yeah, it needed torpedoes to bypass. It was also believed to be an impossible shot. A veteran pilot with a targeting computer couldn't make the shot. It was only made by someone who literally had space magic.

Lets just say that any military design that blows up because of a single shot taken from the outside that does not need to bypass armor is majorly flawed.

It would be like if i could make a modern Aircraft Carrier by managing a 1 in a 1,000,000 shot with my rifle. There was a really major design problem along the way.

And you can say "oh but it was shielded against pellets" to which I answer: but it still vulnerable to slugs.

If I could only hit it by being a literal sorcerer, then yes, I'm still calling it not a design flaw.

EDIT: Let me ask you a question. It's an exhaust port. It was made to exhaust. If they shielded it against every possible thing, so nothing could pass through the shield... then what the hell could it exhaust? They had to allow something to pass through so that it could function. We can reasonably assume that something was physical particles, since physical particles (as in, torpedoes) could go in the other way. Didn't someone around here say something one time about making assumptions that fit what we see, instead of making assumptions that don't and then crying foul?

[BRC]

That, I'll agree with.

Except you are ignoring it. It was shielded. They put a shield on it. This means that they saw that it was a weakness, and covered that weakness. Yeah, it needed torpedoes to bypass. It was also believed to be an impossible shot. A veteran pilot with a targeting computer couldn't make the shot. It was only made by someone who literally had space magic.

it was a Tricky shot.

IIRC, we saw exactly two people make the shot. One of them (A veteran pilot with no space magic) missed, the other (Space Wizard Farmboy) Hit.

It would hardly call that a reliable sample size, nor would I agree that "Literally only a space wizard" could make the shot.


Also, you haven't addressed the idea that they could have known it was a weakness without knowing that it would blow up the station. Letting people shoot inside your super expensive space station is a bad thing, even if it won't blow it up with one shot.

It's not an unreasonable assumption that exhaust ports are a weakness to be protected.

[Cikomyr]

For all we know, Galen himself added the Ray-only shield so it wouldnt look suspicious. So the rest of the staff didnt knew it was a Keystone for the entite Death Star.

[Markozeta]

Has this been touched on? Where were the Bothans? A lot more humans died then Bothans, by my tally. They held the main battleship, but still, they paled to the human death count.

[hamishspence]

Has this been touched on? Where were the Bothans? A lot more humans died then Bothans, by my tally. They held the main battleship, but still, they paled to the human death count.

The OP did say "yes, I know that Mon Mothma in ROTJ was talking about Bothans dying to get info about the second Death Star"

[Peelee]

it was a Tricky shot.

IIRC, we saw exactly two people make the shot. One of them (A veteran pilot with no space magic) missed, the other (Space Wizard Farmboy) Hit.

It would hardly call that a reliable sample size, nor would I agree that "Literally only a space wizard" could make the shot.


Also, you haven't addressed the idea that they could have known it was a weakness without knowing that it would blow up the station. Letting people shoot inside your super expensive space station is a bad thing, even if it won't blow it up with one shot.

It's not an unreasonable assumption that exhaust ports are a weakness to be protected.

It is a small sample size, but we have a third pilot who claims it is impossible, so it's at least larger than two. Still terrible, I'll admit.

Also, there is no way to affirm or deny that they knew the extent of the weakness. Again, it is surrounded by turbolaser guns, and they have a number of TIE fighters for point defense. Both were utilized, and the evil space wizard also went out to personally eliminate the fighters, directly taking out the fighters in the trench.

We can say that the Empire knew it was a weakness, but we cannot say the extent of which. Because, again, if they had shielded it to the point that nothing could get in, then conversely, nothing could get out, which would invalidate the purpose of the exhaust port.

For all we know, Galen himself added the Ray-only shield so it wouldnt look suspicious. So the rest of the staff didnt knew it was a Keystone for the entite Death Star.

Let me ask you a question. It's an exhaust port. It was made to exhaust. If they shielded it against every possible thing, so nothing could pass through the shield... then what the hell could it exhaust? They had to allow something to pass through so that it could function. We can reasonably assume that something was physical particles, since physical particles (as in, torpedoes) could go in the other way. Didn't someone around here say something one time about making assumptions that fit what we see, instead of making assumptions that don't and then crying foul?

[The Glyphstone]

They do seem to have unidirectional force fields over their hangar bays, though, that let solid objects in like shuttles while keeping all the air particles from going out. Installing one of those backwards over the exhaust port to let particles out while blocking things going in seems, on the surface, like something they could do.

[Cikomyr]

Has this been touched on? Where were the Bothans? A lot more humans died then Bothans, by my tally. They held the main battleship, but still, they paled to the human death count.

The fish people who were Ackbard's people and in command of the flagship are named Mon Calamari, not Bothans.

Bothans are fury weasel cat people.

[hamishspence]

Bothans are fury weasel cat people.

There were a number of depictions - some with more humanlike faces, some with very long muzzles.

The newcanon, via Sabine: My Rebel Sketchbook, has gone with one for the more "humanlike" versions:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bothan

[Peelee]

There's a Bothan on one of the planets destroyed by Starkiller Base in Ep. VII. I think that's the only time I've seen one on film.

They do seem to have unidirectional force fields over their hangar bays, though, that let solid objects in like shuttles while keeping all the air particles from going out. Installing one of those backwards over the exhaust port to let particles out while blocking things going in seems, on the surface, like something they could do.

Yeah, that's a good point. My best guess is they just can't install it backwards like that, but I dunno.

[Tyndmyr]

I've got a water heater in the closet. If I shoot it, it's not gonna explode.

If you go to a coal power plant, and set off a bomb, the plant's not gonna explode. Oh, it'll stop working, but won't explode.

If you go to a nuclear reactor, and throw a grenade in the coolant tank, the reactor does not explode.

Military grade technology the size of a planet, + 2 torpedos, = complete boom.

Considering the entire cast of this movie died in explosions, I'm gonna say this is normal for the Star wars universe, not something requiring flaws built in.