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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner View Post
    Now, per the rules regarding Metamagic Feats (PHB 88): "In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell...The modifications made by these feats only apply to spells cast directly by the feat user." So a 1st level metamagic spell, regardless of the level at which it is prepared and cast, is still a 1st level spell. It only becomes a 2nd level spell when cast in a sanctum, or a 0 level spell when cast outside a sanctum.
    Actually, Sanctum spells are one level lower when not cast in a sanctum as opposed to when cast outside the sanctum meaning it is a spell level lower until you cast it in the sanctum weather it is cast or not. The specific rule of sanctum would trump the general rule of metamagic.

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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar View Post
    Actually, Sanctum spells are one level lower when not cast in a sanctum as opposed to when cast outside the sanctum meaning it is a spell level lower until you cast it in the sanctum weather it is cast or not. The specific rule of sanctum would trump the general rule of metamagic.
    It does not EVER have a lower spell level nor does it EVER have a higher spell level. It has a lower or higher EFFECTIVE spell level, which is not the same as having a lower or higher spell level.

    Honestly, I do not believe you seriously care whether RAW or RAI the rules actually support what you are proposing. I think you want so very much to play it your own way you are going to reject any arguments to the contrary no matter how much you have to twist the wording to do so and even if you don't find a single other person who supports your position.

    At the end of the day, if you are the DM it's your game run it however you please. If you are a player then ask your DM. But if you come into the Playground to ask our opinion and all you do is reject everything anyone else says, then why did you bother to ask us in the first place? You obviously have already made up your mind and we aren't going to change it.
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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    I could've sworn that was the case, but when I checked a few days ago I found that the PF and 3.5 rules both said otherwise:
    Ah but that's just it. EVERY cantrip in total takes one page. Not singularly.
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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar View Post
    Weather or not the wizard can actually scribe the spell is irrelevant, they start with a book with ALL arcane 0-level spells within.
    Whether or not it can be separately scribed in the book cannot possibly be irrelevant to the question of whether or not it is separately scribed in the book.

    You are working hard to find absurd interpretations in order to define something as impossible.

    Why?

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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar View Post
    Actually, Sanctum spells are one level lower when not cast in a sanctum as opposed to when cast outside the sanctum meaning it is a spell level lower until you cast it in the sanctum weather it is cast or not. The specific rule of sanctum would trump the general rule of metamagic.
    "When you cast it" and "when you scribe it" don't appear to be the same thing to me. The feat's text says nothing about scribing.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar View Post
    Actually, Sanctum spells are one level lower when not cast in a sanctum as opposed to when cast outside the sanctum meaning it is a spell level lower until you cast it in the sanctum weather it is cast or not. The specific rule of sanctum would trump the general rule of metamagic.
    It only "trumps" the general rule when they disagree.

    Magic Missile is a first level spell, scribed in your book as a first level spell.

    If you then take the Sanctum Spell feat, you can cast Magic Missile at an effective 2nd level, out of your book in which it is scribed as a first level spell.

    Outside of your Sanctum, you can cast Magic Missile as an effective 0th level spell, out of your book in which it is scribed as a 1st level spell.

    Nothing in the rules for Sanctum Spell does it suggest that you have to scribe the spell a second time. Nowhere. A Sanctum Magic Missile is a 1st level spell, but the metamagic of Sanctum Spell treats it differently, just as a Quickened Magic Missile is a 1st level spell memorized in a 5th level slot.

    You do not re-scribe metamagic versions of your spells. You just don't.

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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner View Post
    It does not EVER have a lower spell level nor does it EVER have a higher spell level. It has a lower or higher EFFECTIVE spell level, which is not the same as having a lower or higher spell level.
    I will concede that there is definite merit in this point. One could easily rule that way, though I'm unfamiliar with text enforcing that.

    As to why I am being difficult about this, I was mostly pointing out flaws in people's assertions of the rules in order to have expressed as complete a range of possible interpretations as able weather or not I would actually use such interpretations, or promote them for others to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Whether or not it can be separately scribed in the book cannot possibly be irrelevant to the question of whether or not it is separately scribed in the book.
    The book you receive was never nessisarily scribed. It could have bee created by other means, the most obvious being poor forethought in the 3.5 update, but also the wish-like line of spells and gods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    "When you cast it" and "when you scribe it" don't appear to be the same thing to me. The feat's text says nothing about scribing.
    While it says nothing about how it is scribed, the feat's text does give an exclusionary condition as to when it is a lower level making it such that in every instance in which the spell is not cast within a sanctum it is treated as a spell level lower.

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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    I could've sworn that was the case, but when I checked a few days ago I found that the PF and 3.5 rules both said otherwise:
    Ah. Then let the madness continue.
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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar View Post
    I am fully aware that metamagic versions of spells cannot be recorded or learned by the rules of the wizard and how metamagic is applied(though a Spellhoarding dragon might be able to do it). However, the starting spellbook contains all arcane zero level spells with no qualifiers limiting it such as 'all scribe-able cantrips' or similar. Logic would dictate that a spell would need to be able to be scribed to be written(as stated above) and that would be a perfectly reasonable house rule, but as the text stands that is not the case.
    No, you're still trying to apply metamagic to the spell being learned/scribed. You can't. Sanctum Spell doesn't say you can apply it when you scribe the spell, thus there is no specific rule overriding the general rule that metamagic feats are still only applied to spells when memorized or cast, NOT scribed.

    You are seriously not understanding how metamagic works. No metamagic spell can be written in a book as a metamagic version of itself. You can memorize a quickened magic missile all day long in your 5th level spell slots, but if you go to write it in the book, it's only going to be magic missile, 1st level, one page.

    There is no part of the Sanctum Spell feat that says it allows you to apply it when trying to learn/scribe the spell. Because of this, general rule for metamagic still applies: metamagic only counts when spell is prepared (for wizards, clerics, druids etc.) or when cast (for sorcerers, favored souls, bards, etc.).

    This is in no way a case of "specific trumps general". You literally are trying to apply RAW incorrectly. It doesn't matter that Sanctum changes the spell's level; it still only applies at the moment of memorization/casting, not when trying to learn/scribe it. None of the text in that feat changes this. It only says that when you apply Sanctum to a spell, you alter it's level for the purposes of casting it (+1 spell level in sanctum, -1 outside sanctum). But it only applies when you cast it. It says nothing about altering the way the spell is affected in any other way.

    Even the feat says it still occupies a spell slot of the same spell level. You can't even put a 1st-level Sanctum spell in a 0-level slot. It just counts as a 0-level spell if you cast it outside the sanctum, for purposes of save DC or other spell level issues. There is no such thing as a 0-level Sanctum spell; they're all still 1st-level spells.

    So no. There are not "100" 0-level spells. Any player trying to sell you on that is cheating. Against RAW. I don't know how they actually warped you into believing this was legal by RAW, but it truly is not.

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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    As an aside, can we all agree that Sanctum Spell is one of the worst-written pieces of rules text in the entire game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar View Post
    I will concede that there is definite merit in this point. One could easily rule that way, though I'm unfamiliar with text enforcing that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanctum Spell
    All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level.
    The level of a spell is a quality possessed by the spell, not an effect caused by the spell - let alone one whose effects can be calculated.
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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar View Post
    While it says nothing about how it is scribed, the feat's text does give an exclusionary condition as to when it is a lower level making it such that in every instance in which the spell is not cast within a sanctum it is treated as a spell level lower.
    That doesn't change the fact that the feat is a metamagic feat. It simply does not apply when you're not casting or preparing it, making it meaningless outside of those contexts.

    (Edit: What Eisfalken said)
    Last edited by Psyren; 2016-08-14 at 10:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    As an aside, can we all agree that Sanctum Spell is one of the worst-written pieces of rules text in the entire game?



    The level of a spell is a quality possessed by the spell, not an effect caused by the spell - let alone one whose effects can be calculated.
    Badly written implies that the feat is vague and hard to interpret. Sanctum spell is actually very concise and clear in what it does, so I'd say its quite well written. Now, as to whether or not it's game breaking and poorly thought out/implemented for what it was intended to do, that's a different question.
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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    That doesn't change the fact that the feat is a metamagic feat. It simply does not apply when you're not casting or preparing it, making it meaningless outside of those contexts.

    (Edit: What Eisfalken said)
    This is easier to understand when you parse how the feat applies to the spell.

    Q: Is a sanctum endure elements spell a 0-level, 1st-level, or 2nd-level spell?
    A: It is a 1st-level spell. The base spell, endure elements, is 1st level, and sanctum does not change which spell slot it goes into (i.e a 1st-level slot). RAW says so right there in Complete Arcane.

    Q: When you cast sanctum endure elements, is it a 0-level, 1st-level, or 2nd-level spell?
    A: It is a 1st-level spell. For purposes of spell level, such as saving throw DC and other statistics, it is either counted as a 0-level or 2nd-level spell, but only at the time you cast it and not an instant beforehand. The spell does a quick check of the conditions where it is cast:
    1. Spell is cast outside of the sanctum = -1 spell level applied when spell is cast. This in no way allows you to use a lower-level spell slot to cast it, even spontaneously. A sorcerer casting this spell still takes a full-round action to do it, and burns off a 1st-level spell slot. However, if he were required to make a saving throw against the spell for some reason, he makes the save against a 0-level spell, not a 1st-level spell.
    2. Spell is cast inside sanctum = +1 spell level applied when spell is cast. As above, if you were forced to save against such a spell, you save against a 2nd-level spell.

    The feat isn't written badly; there's just a lot of people here don't seem to know how Sanctum actually works (or they are being deliberate about that, so they can cheat the game somehow). It doesn't actually modify the spell level at all until the very instant you cast it. That's because it has to do a check for the location it is cast in before determining effect. The spell never counts as 0-level, no more than it counts as 2nd-level. It's a 1st-level spell until it fires off, then it is altered into something else at that moment. By then, however, it is too late: you burned a 1st-level slot just to get it off in the first place, and it most certainly occupies a 1st-level page in the book, not 0-level.

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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eisfalken View Post
    No, you're still trying to apply metamagic to the spell being learned/scribed...(stuff based on false pretense)

    This is in no way a case of "specific trumps general". You literally are trying to apply RAW incorrectly. It doesn't matter that Sanctum changes the spell's level; it still only applies at the moment of memorization/casting, not when trying to learn/scribe it. None of the text in that feat changes this. It only says that when you apply Sanctum to a spell, you alter it's level for the purposes of casting it (+1 spell level in sanctum, -1 outside sanctum). But it only applies when you cast it. It says nothing about altering the way the spell is affected in any other way.

    Even the feat says it still occupies a spell slot of the same spell level. You can't even put a 1st-level Sanctum spell in a 0-level slot. It just counts as a 0-level spell if you cast it outside the sanctum, for purposes of save DC or other spell level issues. There is no such thing as a 0-level Sanctum spell; they're all still 1st-level spells.

    So no. There are not "100" 0-level spells. Any player trying to sell you on that is cheating. Against RAW. I don't know how they actually warped you into believing this was legal by RAW, but it truly is not.
    You seem to be confusing my assertions. I have never said you could possibly write a metamagic spell into a spellbook. Simply that wizards start with a spellbook containing all cantrips with no qualifiers on weather they are scribe-able or not.

    You also seem to be confused on the wording of Sanctum spell. The lower level applies at all times after application of the feat except within a sanctum, this means a Sancum Magic Missile memorized by a Wizard is a 0 level spell. This comes into play for other things, such as sacrificing prepared spells for some other effect based on spell level(there was one horrid option for something like +1 att per spell level or something).

    It is a case of specific trumps general in that Sanctum spell alters spell level like Hieghten does rather than only spell slot like every other metamagic feat in the game and as described in the general metamagic rules.

    Occupying a higher spell slot does not automatically mean it is a higher level spell. An Extended Prestidigitation for example is a 0 level spell even though you can't put it in a 0 level slot without metamagic manipulation trickery.

    Even discounting Sanctum, we were up to 72 cantrips before the application of spell templates which are treated as different spells from their base spells. You may not be able to learn or cast them without a feat or other special feature, but they are extra cantrips that would easily exceed the 100 spell mark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eisfalken View Post
    This is easier to understand when you parse how the feat applies to the spell.

    Q: Is a sanctum endure elements spell a 0-level, 1st-level, or 2nd-level spell?
    A: It is a 1st-level spell. The base spell, endure elements, is 1st level, and sanctum does not change which spell slot it goes into (i.e a 1st-level slot). RAW says so right there in Complete Arcane.
    This is false. If prepared, it is a 0 level spell for all effects that rely on spell level, such as defining whether or not it is a cantrip. When cast, it is either a 0 or a 2nd level spell depending on whether you are in your Sanctum or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eisfalken View Post
    Q: When you cast sanctum endure elements, is it a 0-level, 1st-level, or 2nd-level spell?
    A: It is a 1st-level spell. For purposes of spell level, such as saving throw DC and other statistics, it is either counted as a 0-level or 2nd-level spell, but only at the time you cast it and not an instant beforehand. The spell does a quick check of the conditions where it is cast:
    1. Spell is cast outside of the sanctum = -1 spell level applied when spell is cast. This in no way allows you to use a lower-level spell slot to cast it, even spontaneously. A sorcerer casting this spell still takes a full-round action to do it, and burns off a 1st-level spell slot. However, if he were required to make a saving throw against the spell for some reason, he makes the save against a 0-level spell, not a 1st-level spell.
    2. Spell is cast inside sanctum = +1 spell level applied when spell is cast. As above, if you were forced to save against such a spell, you save against a 2nd-level spell.
    Mostly true, except that it's not "if cast outside the sanctum", it is instead "if not cast within the sanctum" which is a much broader spectrum of states.

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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    An open question to which I want to answer "yes," but can see arguments for "no," is whether a cantrip remains a cantrip when you apply metamagic to it. This is really only relevant to PF, not 3.5, but consider whether a enlarged mage hand can be cast at will, or consumes the 1st level spell slot in which it's prepared and thus cannot be cast again.

    I bring this up because it seems pertinent to the "what level does the spell really count as?" discussion.

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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Sanctum [Foo] might be a 0-level spell when prepared, but it's a 1st level spell when written in a spellbook. So if we were going strictly by that, the spell exists in a perpetual loop of qualifying and disqualifying itself from the spellbooks of starting Wizards.

    Perhaps all Wizards have a second spellbook that exists in a state of quantum indeterminacy, the pages flickering between blank and filled with Sanctum versions of 1st level spells. Since this book isn't particularly useful for anything, they tend to throw it away when they start adventuring.

    Also, this is why Sanctum Spell is ultra-banned from any games I run. Because aside from whether it breaks anything, it leads to really stupid arguments.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2017-03-21 at 04:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Did you really have to revive a 7-month-old thread just to say "NO U?"
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Did you really have to revive a 7-month-old thread just to say "NO U?"
    For what it's worth, I missed how terrible this thread is the first time I replied to it. Wizard spellbooks are extradimensional spaces because of spell templates and metamagic, apparently. So being reminded that it exists was moderately amusing.
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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanos View Post
    For what it's worth, I missed how terrible this thread is the first time I replied to it. Wizard spellbooks are extradimensional spaces because of spell templates and metamagic, apparently. So being reminded that it exists was moderately amusing.
    Yeah. As far as I can tell, it goes something like
    1. "I have a real rules problem!"
    2. "That's because you're reading the rules in a weird and probably-incorrect way that creates* a problem."
    3. "Nuh-uh! It's a real problem!"



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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    First off, dragmag content isn't official content. It's WotC-endorsed 3PP.
    So the words "100% official content" printed on every issue are somehow wrong?

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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post

    Is your position honestly "this spell can't be written down, and every wizard begins play with this spell written down in their spellbook"? I'm pretty sure there aren't printed rules governing whether books can contain written text that cannot be written, so (as with all things that have real-world counterparts) we default to how it works in our world, i.e. things that cannot be written down, tautologically, cannot be written down.
    This forum is awesome. This has to be the most epically ridiculous argument I have ever seen... Nowhere else would this need to be said.

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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    This forum is awesome. This has to be the most epically ridiculous argument I have ever seen... Nowhere else would this need to be said.
    This is a 3.5/pathfinder forumn. Of course it's going to be rediclous, we're talking about a game where you can gain special dark powers with puddings, take abilities that get you bitten by hippos and Classes that grant the amazing power of Amidexterity, resulting in hundreds of pages of discussion about all of its dysfunctions. Of course it's going to be insane and/or awesome.
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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    An open question to which I want to answer "yes," but can see arguments for "no," is whether a cantrip remains a cantrip when you apply metamagic to it. This is really only relevant to PF, not 3.5, but consider whether a enlarged mage hand can be cast at will, or consumes the 1st level spell slot in which it's prepared and thus cannot be cast again.

    I bring this up because it seems pertinent to the "what level does the spell really count as?" discussion.
    "In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage."

    Using the higher slot is less advantageous (as now the number of casts are limited, and the metamagicked spell competes with higher level spells) so you are required to use that.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Oh, it goes in the 1st level slot. The question is more whether it - as a Cantrip - can be cast repeatedly, or is expended like a level 1 spell. The "whatever is worse for you" rule does seem to cover that, though.

    Next question: if you prepare a Cantrip (without metamagic) in a 1st level slot, does it get expended when you cast it, or can you cast it over and over? Say, because you wanted to have 5 cantrips today.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    So someone stated that if you memorize Magic Missile as a Sanctum Spell, it is memorized as a 0-level spell...

    The converse of that is obviously that if you memorize Magic Missile as a Sanctum Spell while in your Sanctum, it is memorized as a 2nd level spell.

    And then you leave your Sanctum and cast the spell... and it's a 0-level spell.

    So, the text of the feat says that if you memorize Magic Missile as a Sanctum Spell it takes up a 1st level spell slot.

    If you cast it inside your Sanctum, it counts as a 2nd level spell (basically, it gets heightened without requiring the higher level slot). If you cast it outside of your Sanctum, it counts as a 0-level spell. Either way, it uses up one of your 1st level spell slots.

    Seems perfectly clear to me.

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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Next question: if you prepare a Cantrip (without metamagic) in a 1st level slot, does it get expended when you cast it, or can you cast it over and over? Say, because you wanted to have 5 cantrips today.
    There's been no consensus on this one that I could find.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    BWR won the thread. Paizo was at their best doing Drag Mags
    Last edited by VisitingDaGulag; 2017-03-22 at 12:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    I've never really understood the confusion about sanctum spell. The text says "effective spell level ... if cast ..." Effective spell level is not spell level. Sanctum does nothing to alter the actual spell level and the "effective spell level" is not even defined before casting.

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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    If this ever became a thing at my table where I DM, I'd just interpret the rule to mean all cantrips ever made can fit into one page and let the wizard, wizard on.

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    Default Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    This forum is awesome. This has to be the most epically ridiculous argument I have ever seen... Nowhere else would this need to be said.
    Nah. You want real absurdity, look up the arguments on whether or not the Rules Compendium is a legitimate sourcebook.
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