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2016-08-14, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
Actually, Sanctum spells are one level lower when not cast in a sanctum as opposed to when cast outside the sanctum meaning it is a spell level lower until you cast it in the sanctum weather it is cast or not. The specific rule of sanctum would trump the general rule of metamagic.
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2016-08-14, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
It does not EVER have a lower spell level nor does it EVER have a higher spell level. It has a lower or higher EFFECTIVE spell level, which is not the same as having a lower or higher spell level.
Honestly, I do not believe you seriously care whether RAW or RAI the rules actually support what you are proposing. I think you want so very much to play it your own way you are going to reject any arguments to the contrary no matter how much you have to twist the wording to do so and even if you don't find a single other person who supports your position.
At the end of the day, if you are the DM it's your game run it however you please. If you are a player then ask your DM. But if you come into the Playground to ask our opinion and all you do is reject everything anyone else says, then why did you bother to ask us in the first place? You obviously have already made up your mind and we aren't going to change it.“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” ― Steven Brust
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2016-08-14, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
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2016-08-14, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
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2016-08-14, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
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2016-08-14, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
It only "trumps" the general rule when they disagree.
Magic Missile is a first level spell, scribed in your book as a first level spell.
If you then take the Sanctum Spell feat, you can cast Magic Missile at an effective 2nd level, out of your book in which it is scribed as a first level spell.
Outside of your Sanctum, you can cast Magic Missile as an effective 0th level spell, out of your book in which it is scribed as a 1st level spell.
Nothing in the rules for Sanctum Spell does it suggest that you have to scribe the spell a second time. Nowhere. A Sanctum Magic Missile is a 1st level spell, but the metamagic of Sanctum Spell treats it differently, just as a Quickened Magic Missile is a 1st level spell memorized in a 5th level slot.
You do not re-scribe metamagic versions of your spells. You just don't.
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2016-08-14, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
I will concede that there is definite merit in this point. One could easily rule that way, though I'm unfamiliar with text enforcing that.
As to why I am being difficult about this, I was mostly pointing out flaws in people's assertions of the rules in order to have expressed as complete a range of possible interpretations as able weather or not I would actually use such interpretations, or promote them for others to use.
The book you receive was never nessisarily scribed. It could have bee created by other means, the most obvious being poor forethought in the 3.5 update, but also the wish-like line of spells and gods.
While it says nothing about how it is scribed, the feat's text does give an exclusionary condition as to when it is a lower level making it such that in every instance in which the spell is not cast within a sanctum it is treated as a spell level lower.
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2016-08-14, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-08-14, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
No, you're still trying to apply metamagic to the spell being learned/scribed. You can't. Sanctum Spell doesn't say you can apply it when you scribe the spell, thus there is no specific rule overriding the general rule that metamagic feats are still only applied to spells when memorized or cast, NOT scribed.
You are seriously not understanding how metamagic works. No metamagic spell can be written in a book as a metamagic version of itself. You can memorize a quickened magic missile all day long in your 5th level spell slots, but if you go to write it in the book, it's only going to be magic missile, 1st level, one page.
There is no part of the Sanctum Spell feat that says it allows you to apply it when trying to learn/scribe the spell. Because of this, general rule for metamagic still applies: metamagic only counts when spell is prepared (for wizards, clerics, druids etc.) or when cast (for sorcerers, favored souls, bards, etc.).
This is in no way a case of "specific trumps general". You literally are trying to apply RAW incorrectly. It doesn't matter that Sanctum changes the spell's level; it still only applies at the moment of memorization/casting, not when trying to learn/scribe it. None of the text in that feat changes this. It only says that when you apply Sanctum to a spell, you alter it's level for the purposes of casting it (+1 spell level in sanctum, -1 outside sanctum). But it only applies when you cast it. It says nothing about altering the way the spell is affected in any other way.
Even the feat says it still occupies a spell slot of the same spell level. You can't even put a 1st-level Sanctum spell in a 0-level slot. It just counts as a 0-level spell if you cast it outside the sanctum, for purposes of save DC or other spell level issues. There is no such thing as a 0-level Sanctum spell; they're all still 1st-level spells.
So no. There are not "100" 0-level spells. Any player trying to sell you on that is cheating. Against RAW. I don't know how they actually warped you into believing this was legal by RAW, but it truly is not.
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2016-08-14, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
As an aside, can we all agree that Sanctum Spell is one of the worst-written pieces of rules text in the entire game?
Originally Posted by Sanctum SpellPlease use they/them/theirs when referring to me in the third person.
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2016-08-14, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
Last edited by Psyren; 2016-08-14 at 10:42 PM.
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2016-08-14, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
Badly written implies that the feat is vague and hard to interpret. Sanctum spell is actually very concise and clear in what it does, so I'd say its quite well written. Now, as to whether or not it's game breaking and poorly thought out/implemented for what it was intended to do, that's a different question.
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2016-08-14, 11:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
This is easier to understand when you parse how the feat applies to the spell.
Q: Is a sanctum endure elements spell a 0-level, 1st-level, or 2nd-level spell?
A: It is a 1st-level spell. The base spell, endure elements, is 1st level, and sanctum does not change which spell slot it goes into (i.e a 1st-level slot). RAW says so right there in Complete Arcane.
Q: When you cast sanctum endure elements, is it a 0-level, 1st-level, or 2nd-level spell?
A: It is a 1st-level spell. For purposes of spell level, such as saving throw DC and other statistics, it is either counted as a 0-level or 2nd-level spell, but only at the time you cast it and not an instant beforehand. The spell does a quick check of the conditions where it is cast:
1. Spell is cast outside of the sanctum = -1 spell level applied when spell is cast. This in no way allows you to use a lower-level spell slot to cast it, even spontaneously. A sorcerer casting this spell still takes a full-round action to do it, and burns off a 1st-level spell slot. However, if he were required to make a saving throw against the spell for some reason, he makes the save against a 0-level spell, not a 1st-level spell.
2. Spell is cast inside sanctum = +1 spell level applied when spell is cast. As above, if you were forced to save against such a spell, you save against a 2nd-level spell.
The feat isn't written badly; there's just a lot of people here don't seem to know how Sanctum actually works (or they are being deliberate about that, so they can cheat the game somehow). It doesn't actually modify the spell level at all until the very instant you cast it. That's because it has to do a check for the location it is cast in before determining effect. The spell never counts as 0-level, no more than it counts as 2nd-level. It's a 1st-level spell until it fires off, then it is altered into something else at that moment. By then, however, it is too late: you burned a 1st-level slot just to get it off in the first place, and it most certainly occupies a 1st-level page in the book, not 0-level.
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2017-03-21, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
You seem to be confusing my assertions. I have never said you could possibly write a metamagic spell into a spellbook. Simply that wizards start with a spellbook containing all cantrips with no qualifiers on weather they are scribe-able or not.
You also seem to be confused on the wording of Sanctum spell. The lower level applies at all times after application of the feat except within a sanctum, this means a Sancum Magic Missile memorized by a Wizard is a 0 level spell. This comes into play for other things, such as sacrificing prepared spells for some other effect based on spell level(there was one horrid option for something like +1 att per spell level or something).
It is a case of specific trumps general in that Sanctum spell alters spell level like Hieghten does rather than only spell slot like every other metamagic feat in the game and as described in the general metamagic rules.
Occupying a higher spell slot does not automatically mean it is a higher level spell. An Extended Prestidigitation for example is a 0 level spell even though you can't put it in a 0 level slot without metamagic manipulation trickery.
Even discounting Sanctum, we were up to 72 cantrips before the application of spell templates which are treated as different spells from their base spells. You may not be able to learn or cast them without a feat or other special feature, but they are extra cantrips that would easily exceed the 100 spell mark.
This is false. If prepared, it is a 0 level spell for all effects that rely on spell level, such as defining whether or not it is a cantrip. When cast, it is either a 0 or a 2nd level spell depending on whether you are in your Sanctum or not.
Mostly true, except that it's not "if cast outside the sanctum", it is instead "if not cast within the sanctum" which is a much broader spectrum of states.
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2017-03-21, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
An open question to which I want to answer "yes," but can see arguments for "no," is whether a cantrip remains a cantrip when you apply metamagic to it. This is really only relevant to PF, not 3.5, but consider whether a enlarged mage hand can be cast at will, or consumes the 1st level spell slot in which it's prepared and thus cannot be cast again.
I bring this up because it seems pertinent to the "what level does the spell really count as?" discussion.
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2017-03-21, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
Sanctum [Foo] might be a 0-level spell when prepared, but it's a 1st level spell when written in a spellbook. So if we were going strictly by that, the spell exists in a perpetual loop of qualifying and disqualifying itself from the spellbooks of starting Wizards.
Perhaps all Wizards have a second spellbook that exists in a state of quantum indeterminacy, the pages flickering between blank and filled with Sanctum versions of 1st level spells. Since this book isn't particularly useful for anything, they tend to throw it away when they start adventuring.
Also, this is why Sanctum Spell is ultra-banned from any games I run. Because aside from whether it breaks anything, it leads to really stupid arguments.Last edited by icefractal; 2017-03-21 at 04:01 PM.
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2017-03-21, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
Did you really have to revive a 7-month-old thread just to say "NO U?"
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2017-03-21, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
Last edited by Zanos; 2017-03-21 at 04:13 PM.
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2017-03-21, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
Yeah. As far as I can tell, it goes something like
- "I have a real rules problem!"
- "That's because you're reading the rules in a weird and probably-incorrect way that creates* a problem."
- "Nuh-uh! It's a real problem!"
*Well, aggravates. There are a lot of cantrips; I got 28 out of the PHB+SpC alone, which is almost a third of your book right there.Hill Giant Games
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2017-03-21, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-21, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-21, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
This is a 3.5/pathfinder forumn. Of course it's going to be rediclous, we're talking about a game where you can gain special dark powers with puddings, take abilities that get you bitten by hippos and Classes that grant the amazing power of Amidexterity, resulting in hundreds of pages of discussion about all of its dysfunctions. Of course it's going to be insane and/or awesome.
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2017-03-21, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
"In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage."
Using the higher slot is less advantageous (as now the number of casts are limited, and the metamagicked spell competes with higher level spells) so you are required to use that.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2017-03-21, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
Oh, it goes in the 1st level slot. The question is more whether it - as a Cantrip - can be cast repeatedly, or is expended like a level 1 spell. The "whatever is worse for you" rule does seem to cover that, though.
Next question: if you prepare a Cantrip (without metamagic) in a 1st level slot, does it get expended when you cast it, or can you cast it over and over? Say, because you wanted to have 5 cantrips today.
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2017-03-21, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
So someone stated that if you memorize Magic Missile as a Sanctum Spell, it is memorized as a 0-level spell...
The converse of that is obviously that if you memorize Magic Missile as a Sanctum Spell while in your Sanctum, it is memorized as a 2nd level spell.
And then you leave your Sanctum and cast the spell... and it's a 0-level spell.
So, the text of the feat says that if you memorize Magic Missile as a Sanctum Spell it takes up a 1st level spell slot.
If you cast it inside your Sanctum, it counts as a 2nd level spell (basically, it gets heightened without requiring the higher level slot). If you cast it outside of your Sanctum, it counts as a 0-level spell. Either way, it uses up one of your 1st level spell slots.
Seems perfectly clear to me.
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2017-03-21, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
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2017-03-21, 07:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
BWR won the thread. Paizo was at their best doing Drag Mags
Last edited by VisitingDaGulag; 2017-03-22 at 12:59 PM.
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2017-03-21, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
I've never really understood the confusion about sanctum spell. The text says "effective spell level ... if cast ..." Effective spell level is not spell level. Sanctum does nothing to alter the actual spell level and the "effective spell level" is not even defined before casting.
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2017-03-22, 07:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
If this ever became a thing at my table where I DM, I'd just interpret the rule to mean all cantrips ever made can fit into one page and let the wizard, wizard on.
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2017-03-22, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wizard Spellbook: Where is all the space?
Hill Giant Games
I make indie gaming books for you!Spoiler
STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.