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Thread: Can we be tolerant, please?
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2016-08-14, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
Re: Can we be tolerant, please?
If you're using the terms 'Nature' and 'nurture' in the classical way of inherited (genetical) factors vs environmental factors, you're way off.
There's strong evidence for biochemical differences between the brains of homosexual and heterosexual individuals. Whether or not that's the cause of an inherited or environmental factor is undetermined.
There's some evidence for the existence of certain genetical factors, but it's still fairly controversial. And even if it wasn't, it would not mean sexuality is pure nature. There's no reason to think there's not an important environmental factor at play.
More importantly, I think Nature vs. Nurture isn't even all that relevant for the discussion at hand. 'Nurture' is, for the most part, determined by the early formative years of our personalities. What environment we grow up in is not really any more in our control than the parents we're born to. Whether being gay is a result of inherited factors or environmental ones doesn't change that's who this person is and that it is not their choice.
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2016-08-14, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
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2016-08-14, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Can we be tolerant, please?
Good, I am happy you are uncomfortable. Because that is exactly how you should feel when you make a serious accusation (in this case racism) against somebody, and somebody calls you out on it. Social consequences for public racism, sexism, or homophobia can be fine, if they are founded. Consequences such as accusations of racism for just happening to be attracted to people of a certain nationality are not.
Jon fetishizes Brasilian women. This is a fact.
It makes several of us judgemental, because it's a fetish with a racial/ethnic component
a point which is commonly characterized as a micro-aggression, because it shapes your opinion on someone based on a grouping they cannot prevent, rather than the kind of person they are.
Jon is free to have this bias, but to publicly speak about it is to open himself up to criticism.
Whether or not he wants to take anything from that criticism is up to him, but if he doesn't want the criticism, maybe he should go to a more like-minded group of people to discuss the issues he continually puts himself into, rather than a group of people who have already established they do not appreciate the consistent talk of his fetishistic view of Brasilian women, to the exclusion of anything else.
Everyone has preferences-- but like idealizations of a perfect significant other, we know that some of those preferences may give way in the face of love. Who you fall in love with might have crooked teeth, or hair styled in a way different than you normally like, or may not be Brasilian, but you've fallen in love and suddenly those things don't seem important.
To me, everything about Jon_Dahl's continued problems strikes me as wrong. Everything you mentioned, Crow, plus the fetishization of Brasilian women, the way he treats all these women...
All of it.
And I honestly think it's gone to the point of ridiculousness that Jon_Dahl has become a Playgrounder meme unto himself.
edit: Oh and by the way, I'm done with this thread as well. If anybody has any further bone to pick with me, feel free to PM. Good luck Jon; I hope you've learned a valuable lesson here.Last edited by Crow; 2016-08-14 at 06:41 PM.
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2016-08-14, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: Can we be tolerant, please?
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2016-08-14, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
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- Minnesota
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Re: Can we be tolerant, please?
Whatever. I don't really have any ability to argue about orientation vs fetishes, and judging from Alice's post that isn't even the real problem. I just wish I could stop seeing this thread on the main page.
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2016-08-14, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
- Location
- Bottom of a well
Re: Can we be tolerant, please?
There's a difference between a preference for a trait (For example, I like the way asian folks look because epicanthal folds are sexy to me) and associating that trait with unrelated issues (For example, cultural stereotypes) and again a gulf of difference between treating a physical trait as an emotional requirement (I will only date people of X ethnicity because they are Y emotionally and I need that).
If you don't see the point where this is going from a preference to playing into the objectification of people who should be partners, and the way it plays into the whole Madonna/Whore complex where the moment people slip from this unattainable ideal... plastic cutout of a person they...
I dunno what to say at this point. I really don't.
Like, as a person with some pretty clear fetishes of my own, this goes beyond the realm of attraction and into objectification.
And the crazy thing is, this isn't even a topic I had an opinion on until it was protested that people have opinions. I have learned about this argument as a result of morbid curiosity after this thread caught my eye.
...
I too, am out. There's no productive discussion to be had here that I can see, certainly not without going way more into real world politics than I already have.
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2016-08-14, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: Can we be tolerant, please?
A cursory skim of this thread reveals that for the most part this isn't true at all, and in fact the situation is the opposite. With only one or two exceptions (who have themselves not even come close to just saying "Jon is racist because he has a preference for Brazilian women", but have rather gone into great detail about the background, both with Jon and more generally, that causes them to consider it an issue), multiple people have repeatedly explained clearly, explicitly and in great detail how it is the language he uses when he talks about Brazilian and other women, how he treats Brazilian and other women, and his constantly repeated pattern of behaviour that keeps on hurting both himself and the objects of his desire over and over again in blind pursuit of his "preference l" at the exclusion of all else, including his own happiness. It is largely only Jon and people such as yourself who are insisting on reducing the whole issue to just him having a thing for Brazilian women, as seen in Jon's first post and in the posts in defence of his misrepresentation of the situation.
To offer another analogy, I, myself, have a thing for skinny, pretty, nerdy boys. That, in itself, is fine, just as Jon having a thing for Brazilians is fine. But if I were to talk about skinny, pretty nerd boys like Jon talks about Brazilian women, and if I described treating them as Jon does - about having multiple "candidates" lined up according to qualities such as "submissiveness" that offer no insight into their personalities, interests or anything that indicates they're an independent human being with motivations and value outside of pleasing me, talking about which one I will "keep", telling multiple people I love them when I'm still picking which one to pursue, etc - just as many people would, quite rightly, be just as quick - and in some cases a lot less patient and polite - to call me out on my behaviour, my attitude, and, yes, my obsession with that "preference".Last edited by Serpentine; 2016-08-14 at 07:11 PM.
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2016-08-14, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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- San Francisco Bay area
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Re: Can we be tolerant, please?
"Volleyball re-education camps"??!!
That truly sounds dystopian!
He lives in Finland!
So from what I've learned of Finland:
1) Reindeer (cousins to the North American Caribou) roam there.
2) They can out drink Russians (at least according to a couple of my coworkers who grew up in the Soviet Union).
3) They like saunas.
From these "facts" I believe it's safe to infer that Finnish women are indeed cold, because everyone who is not drinking in a sauna is cold, especially the ones herding Reindeer!
While useless, since long-distance psychoanalysis is just so much fun, my diagnosis is that if he just would move somewhere warm (Spain and southern California come to mind), he wouldn't desire Brazil and Brazilians so much.
For my fee he should tell us what Finland is really like.
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2016-08-14, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
Re: Can we be tolerant, please?
I think your problem is that, despite how the argument has been posed, on some level many of you see this comparison as a denigration or vilification of homosexuals. This is not the case. So called "fetishes" are every bit as inconsequential as preference for men or women. If you had wisdom you would see that your values and norms are a meaningless attachment and an illusion.
Last edited by Bohandas; 2016-08-14 at 07:25 PM.
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2016-08-14, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2015
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- On the tip of my tongue
Re: Can we be tolerant, please?
No, RabbitHoleLost explicitly stated several other aspects of their "problem" with Jon. I happen to agree with you that liking Brazilians is not in itself an issue.
I'm glad we've descended to "Your disagreement with me is the product of your personal failings" and "values are an illusion" as arguments. Even when I agree with y'all, you make it really hard to agree with you.Last edited by Lethologica; 2016-08-14 at 08:46 PM.
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2016-08-14, 08:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
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- The Steamboat
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Re: Can we be tolerant, please?
The Winged Mod: Thread closed for review.