Jedi History 161 & 171 (Let's Play of Knights of the Old Republic 1 & 2)[Now Running]

[russdm]

So, I have a few games, and was wondering which of them would be best and desired for a Let's Play, while trying to get screenshots made and saved. I have never done it before really, but still want to try. So what should be the first one? I am going to talk about feelings/thoughts/impressions about the game. I do have a preference towards Star Wars, RPGs, and having more fun than doing anything major to win. (Having fun is really important, but strategy games like StarCraft have good methods to employ)

Games Chosen by votes:
Knights of the Old Republic 1 (it works!) [Have a few mods: One for adding in lightsaber styles from game two; one for female revan and bastila romance with enhanced flirting for females ( I think); one about giving a better force power feat gains; Jedi from the start; all jedi party)] [Have a mod to start game as Jedi, and another for having entire party as Jedi except droids and maybe Canderous?? not be Jedi. Results in Carth having only 4 Force points or something, which is hilarious; the mod makes some interesting Jedi class choices for Characters]
Knights of the Old Republic 2 With Restored Content Mod

(Also, the best ways to get screenshots to put into Imgur [Image hosting site-it's free, but if you know of a better free one to use, then I am willing to look into] folders to link here would be great [I know about doing the "print screen" method, but it takes awhile and is long/annoying] and thanks)

Have the restored content for the second game, along with being to pick the handmaiden(Yawn) as female exile. I prefer Disciple, then maybe get his force abilities on, then just stick on the ship for the rest.

So based on votes, we are doing Both Knights of the Old Republic games. Since I have several Mods for the game, I need to know which of the following Mods to employ when playing, so PM your Vote of which ones to use, and after I get them, the Fun shall begin!!!

Mods)

1)The Jedi from the Start has you picking up a jedi class after getting the game start class (So you pick [soldier, scout, scoundrel] and get to select [guardian, sentinel, counselor(Sp?)] for a class. Then you just end up with the same class basically on Dantioone, don't pick anything differently I think.)

2)All Jedi Party changes out most of your party members to give them Force classes through than others, so Zaalbar/Canderous(think, not sure)/Mission/Carth each get to use the Force. Since Juhani, Bastila, Jolee have the Force they don't change, and neither HK or T3 can use the Force. The Mod makes some interesting decisions for what Jedi classes to hand out like making Carth a Counselor, with the other 3 getting classes too. It does mean that all of your party members that you would have stopped using are more likely to get used.

3)The Female Revan mod increases stuff and allows for a female revan/bastila romance. Just adds in material for being more flirty according to the readme.

4)Force forms adds in Force lightsaber forms from Kotor 2

5)The Force feats I think changes how the Force classes get stuff, I think it is supposed to be for the first game. It could be for the second one, I would have to confirm. So the mod changes the rates at when Force classes get Force powers and is for the first game, I believe. It doesn't mention being for the second one.

Also we will need to have votes Gender and Classes, Male/Female & Soldier/Scout/Scoundrel & For Jedi at start/Jedi Class (Guardian/Sentinel/Counselor); PM yours to me.

Or post the votes below.

[rooster707]

Yay! I will be following this closely, since these are some of my favorite games ever.

I vote for the Female Revan and Force forms mods. I don't really get why you would want to start as a Jedi, or make everyone else into Jedi; it just kind of feels like cheating to me.

[Lentrax]

Voting:

Male Revan
Scoundrel
Force Form mod

[russdm]

Nice votes, with a preference for Female Revan. I got some name ideas: Dead Beat, Commander X(something), go with random name, or maybe a liked suggestion?

Name Ideas:

Dead Beat
Flash Dance
Kneel B4 Zod (a variation that allows for first name, given name)
Knightly Pants
Kitten Cat
Cat Girl
Apocalypse
Juggy Gal
Nimble Tumbler
Blue Tide

What name ideas do you have? The Name will be used frequently for the character and so seeing the name should make us(me) laugh

[rooster707]

Name suggestion: Revan. Or Darth Revan. Then go light side, so you can say things like "I'm not Revan anymore, I'm Revan."

Votes:

Gender: Male. Because ugh, Carth.
Class: Scout.

[russdm]

Votes looking good.

Regarding Juhani, To be Honest I rarely use her at all, and prefer Employing Bastila or Jolee with either HK or Canderous for party. Zaalbar is nice, but still....

I am totally going to go further in discussing our party members as they appear. The first episode will probably feature Carth, dutiful chump. But before that shall be discussions of character, party members, and general matters.

All in spoilers for anyone who is among the rare few who haven't played this game before, or no spoilers considering the game's age. Which should that be? Spoilers/No Spoilers/Whatever I choose?

[rooster707]

IMO, if someone's watching/reading/whatever a Let's Play of a game, then they're pretty much asking for it to be spoiled for them. Especially a game as old as this.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Considering the largest spoiler is already in the thread...

My roommate is a fairly big star wars and gamer nerd, and she had never played KotOR before, and somehow had avoided being spoiled. (I was also unspoiled until halfway through when I got stuck in a part and had to look up what to do next and the guide referred to the player as Revan. I hated that sooooo much, it was so unneccesary!) So I was looking forward to seeing her reaction (it was priceless). Especially when she asked me for help naming her character, and I had her name her character an anagram of Darth Revan. Can't remember exactly what it was. But when I told her what I did she almost murdered me!

[russdm]

So, I am going to talk about some things while waiting for what Gender/Class we go with.

1) Knights is a great game but...

Knights of the Old Republic is a great game. It is a better story than anything produced really in the prequels, but it has some flaws, some big glaring flaws. Those flaws can seriously affect the game, or they can barely appear. As a RPG game, Knights follows the traditional linear quest line. Bioware is good with creating/working with settings, but it's quests are really less than stellar. Bethesda is great at settings and other quests and making a sandbox, but there Main Quest is rather shallow. So that point made, Bioware is basically Co-opting a plot here that shows up in the first Mass Effect game: Find the McGuffins. Our mission is locate pieces of the star map. It's not a bad quest, Bioware does a good job with making it work, but it stills feels flat on another playthrough. That's because we aren't exploring anything new like another playthrough of Kotor 2 would be.

A) Flaw 1: The characters

The Characters or more accurately, our companion characters lack some real focus/steam. Carth is a paranoid Bastard, Bastila is the cult fanatic, Juhani is ...difficult to explain/comprehend...Mission is a kid, Zal (the wookie) is a wookie, HK is awesome, T3 is Ancient R2, Canderous is basically a Klingon in Star Wars, Jolee is awesome. This is shown really in why we should be hauling all of these people in our quest.

Carth Onasi: Carth is a pilot, but we really don't need the best pilot in the Republic military involved. The Council makes a really big deal about going unnoticed, but Carth is a big-shot. This is almost like sending out the president of the US or the Queen of England out on a commando mission or some kind of special ops job. He is so noticeable, that the Sith should be following us around simply because of who Carth is, and of course, there is Karath, who would suggest going after Carth. Why exactly are we hauling him with us?

The Droids: The droids are there because we own them, so no actual issues. T3 is best onboard ship unless we need his slicing skills, but thanks to being able to buy Spikes, we actually don't need him if we are willing to splurge the cash. HK has great dialogue which is why I take him along always or a lot. He is basically pseudo-Garius or pseudo-Wrex.

Mission: She is a kid, and so quickly becomes a child soldier. Her entire point is to get us into the Black Vulkar base, but once that is done she is easily replaced by T3 for slicing because his stats are better suited. Plus she is still a kid, so bringing her along means turning her into a child soldier. Do we really want to do that to her? And she stays for Zal, which makes it worse.

Zaalbar (Zal): Our wookie friend is basically a wookie. He is there to be an expy of Chewie, but lacks any real definement until Kashyyyk, where he gets taken from us. He disappears and we learn about him from others rather than himself. This messes up his character, especially because we get to re-convince that about Chuundar which is how he got exiled in the first place. Then he proclaims a life debt to us. Zal is impulsive, quick to act without thinking. Yes, he can rend really well, but without the life debt or visiting Kashyyyk (which botches his use there), we are actually better off sending him off with Mission to start a new life somewhere. We don't need him once we get off Taris, and we end up not needing him on Kashyyyk either because his plotting there was poorly designed.

Juhani/Bastila: Both of the female Jedi are the same expect we need Bastila for her force visions, otherwise she is just a target while Juhani is just a giant sign that we are on a special mission. We need to look like mercs or somebody the Sith/Dark Jedi wouldn't care about, but that doesn't fit either of them. Bastila has more involvement anyway, and because we can kill Juhani, her use or value simply disappears. Even worse, the council dumps her on us. We need to be convincing people to join us, not having someone tells us to take them along.

Canderous: Being a Mando and a glory hound, Candie has a big reason to sign on, combat moments. So we do want him around. Also, given the usual Mando attitude and relationship to the republic, he really sells the idea that we are not working with the republic and can look safe with regards to the sith.

Jolee: The best character in the game is Jolee. He is the only Counselor other than the player character and so we need him for the force buffs against dark side force users in late game. Plus, he happens to have the one main important thing going for him which is that he used to be a hero like the PC. He has been in our shoes and frankly his stories are great. He is a mentor figure like Obiwan but less death-prone.

So of the characters we need to take with us, only the droids and candie, Bastila has a need. the others can be dropped but being an RPG, they have to come with. That means most of the party sits on ship while everything happens. At least once we can use somebody we might not bring along usually, but I preferred using Candie or Jolee for it because Candie regens like a troll and Jolee's segment is fun.

(Will cover more tomorrow)

[KillingAScarab]

Scout is the option which gives you free implant feats, so I suppose I would vote for that as starting class.

So that point made, Bioware is basically Co-opting a plot here that shows up in the first Mass Effect game: Find the McGuffins. Our mission is locate pieces of the star map. It's not a bad quest, Bioware does a good job with making it work, but it stills feels flat on another playthrough.

I think it's more accurate to say it's the same/similar plot which had been used in Neverwinter Nights.

Spoiler: Neverwinter Nights

Show

Find the ancient artifacts of the secret progenitor species which no one has ever heard of because we just made it up and it never comes up again. You know, that species. The one with a language you don't understand.

At least KotOR let you also play Pazaak.

That's because we aren't exploring anything new like another playthrough of Kotor 2 would be.

While I have reached the endgame once, I haven't completed a playthrough of the original KotOR. When I have tried subsequent attempts I made different choices while trying for full light side/dark side points. I don't recall what they are exactly, but I had read there were bonuses for achieving that. Unfortunately, at that point you're taking the role-playing out of your character as you follow a guide. If you don't care about the bonuses, you could choose your actions simply to try dialog options you hadn't before. Alternatively, you could showcase the amusing choices.

[GloatingSwine]

At least KotOR let you also play Pazaak.

I am not sure that this counts as a recommendation given that Crap Space Blackjack is an abomination against all that is good and holy.

[rooster707]

I am not sure that this counts as a recommendation given that Crap Space Blackjack is an abomination against all that is good and holy.

Eh, it got better in the sequel, IMO. (Or maybe that was just me having the best cards after cheating my way through the Nar Shaddaa tournament, IDK. )

[LibraryOgre]

I like the game vanilla, myself. I tend to start as a Scoundrel (Yay, skill points!), and go Sentinel (Yay, immunity to stun and paralyze!). I prefer a male Revan, partially because it's the canon answer.

[danzibr]

Well, my first playthrough I went dark side caster, second playthrough I went light side tank, male then female (admittedly, didn't finish the second one). I'd say... use all the mods, and go sneaky female. Or sneaky male.

[GloatingSwine]

I like the game vanilla, myself. I tend to start as a Scoundrel (Yay, skill points!), and go Sentinel (Yay, immunity to stun and paralyze!). I prefer a male Revan, partially because it's the canon answer.

Sentinel is literally the worst Jedi type (it's also the one invented for this game not from SWD20). Stun and Paralyse are minor irritations that you can often resist with saves anyway, and your main character is never going to be your skillmonkey when T3-M4 and Mission are things which exist so having more class skills (for the puny amount of skill points Jedi classes get) isn't useful either, so you aren't getting anything good out of its class thing.

Scoundrel->Guardian is good though, because you get to use any ranks in Sneak Attack on your Force Jumps, so it can be worth taking a Scoundrel to 5 on Taris. (Scout can stop at 4 when they get Uncanny Dodge and Implant 2, there's no point picking a Soldier, Scout 4->Guardian has as many feats as Soldier unless you take Soldier to 7 and gimp your force pool and power picks and only pays 2 points of BAB to get there.)

Scoundrel 5->Guardian or Scout 4->Guardian or Consular are how to do it. (Also if you're going Guardian always stack strength to the exclusion of everything else, defence boost from dex isn't that good anyway and strength gives you both damage and to hit bonus.)

[AvatarVecna]

2)All Jedi Party changes out most of your party members to give them Force classes through than others, so Zaalbar/Canderous(think, not sure)/Mission/Carth each get to use the Force. Since Juhani, Bastila, Jolee have the Force they don't change, and neither HK or T3 can use the Force. The Mod makes some interesting decisions for what Jedi classes to hand out like making Carth a Counselor, with the other 3 getting classes too. It does mean that all of your party members that you would have stopped using are more likely to get used.

I have opinions about using this mod: namely, I would suggest against it, if only because I end up getting a fair bit of use out some of my non-Jedi allies. Bastilla bores me to pieces, to the point that I only really take her anywhere if it's an absolute necessity (to this end, I usually go female to avoid that whole stupid romance, but I'd prefer Fem!RevanXMission, to be totally honest). It doesn't help that I prefer going Sentinel, either. Jolee is fantastic support, although I try to avoid making him a Jedi Mage because if I wanted to sit back and watch a CGI Wizard kill CGI goons, I'd go watch a movie or something rather than playing a game. To that end, I love Juhani as well, because that Force Jump is awesome, and the character is interesting without also being overpowered. Now for the non-jedi, and why they should stay that way IMO:

Either droid manipulating the force breaks both the lore and the characters; that said, while I never use T3-M4 for anything but hacking the Sith Base door and computer system, I can take HK-47 basically anywhere except the Star Forge, at which point he becomes a severe liability for multiple reasons. Carth can make a fantastic dual-pistol guy, and can be made capable enough to be useful even on the Star Forge (although that's admittedly the part of the game where he become the least useful); furthermore, most of the powers I'd really want for Carth are things that other party members (like Revan) can use to buff him, with the sole exception of Master Speed. Canderous is awesome as long as you don't try and make him a ranged expert; make him a melee monster, and you'll have yourself a force to be reckoned with without having a Force to be reckoned with. Mission dual-wielding pistols is a damage machine as it is, even just with Master Critical Shot or whatever it's called; giving her the ability to debuff groups of enemies into being vulnerable to SA is a layer of frosting she doesn't need. Zaalbar with pumped up Con, the Toughness feat tree, and the Conditioning feat tree, is a ****ing juggernaut. One of my earlier playthroughs, I got to the Star Forge and brought Jolee and Zaalbar; the two of us buffed everybody, and we started going to town, as usual. At some point, when all the bodies were on the floor, I realized Jolee was nearly down, while Zaalbar was both down and nowhere in sight...but there was a trail of bodies. So I followed the trail...and followed it...and followed it...and followed it...and finally, across the entire freaking map, I found Zaalbar, lying atop a pile of bodies that were only not in the more familiar "trail of bodies" format because there were too many of them for Zaalbar to keep barreling through them like a force of nature.

Would all these non-droids be more optimal with Jedi levels? Eh, probably. Do they need them? Not really.

Mind you, this gets very different in the second game; the game embraces that Force powers are OP, and makes it so that basically every cohort other than the droids and Canderous can become a Jedi of some flavor (well, them and the crazy wookie, but that crazy Wookie is even more of a freakin' beast than Zaalbar was, because he has "totally not force powers" as extra racial features). About the only character in the second game that should become a Jedi who doesn't is Canderous, and about the only one who does but shouldn't is Bao Dur, who is somehow an even whinier and more useless version of T3-M4 even with Jedi powers.

Also, on a completely unrelated note, Kreia is a bitch. She may kinda have a point, but she's still a bitch.

[russdm]

I have opinions about using this mod: namely, I would suggest against it, if only because I end up getting a fair bit of use out some of my non-Jedi allies.

Well, have votes for not using that Mod, or really other mods.

Bastilla bores me to pieces, to the point that I only really take her anywhere if it's an absolute necessity (to this end, I usually go female to avoid that whole stupid romance, but I'd prefer Fem!RevanXMission, to be totally honest).

Bastila can be boring, yes, but also has Snark she can deliver. I don't remember any times that Juhani employed Snark. Plus we get Juhani by having the Jedi Council dump her on the PC. We should be requesting her to join not, not having her get dumped on us.

It doesn't help that I prefer going Sentinel, either. Jolee is fantastic support, although I try to avoid making him a Jedi Mage because if I wanted to sit back and watch a CGI Wizard kill CGI goons, I'd go watch a movie or something rather than playing a game.

The whole point of bringing Jolee is for his personality, snark comments, and the benefit he provides with the Force. He is the only Counselor in the game besides the PC, and happens to more valuable I found compared to the other Jedi Characters. Plus his story of being a former Hero and the stories he tells allows for quite a lot of Humor.

To that end, I love Juhani as well, because that Force Jump is awesome, and the character is interesting without also being overpowered.

Interesting? Did we play the same game? Juhani is basically Bastila but without the plot coupon visions, and gets added in a "my species doth protest" bit. Plus, the council dumps her on us when we should have requested her presence on this mission.

As for the Force Jump, while we can take Guardian for our prestige class, thereby acquiring the same ability so taking her along because of that is a flawed point.

Carth can make a fantastic dual-pistol guy, and can be made capable enough to be useful even on the Star Forge (although that's admittedly the part of the game where he become the least useful); furthermore, most of the powers I'd really want for Carth are things that other party members (like Revan) can use to buff him, with the sole exception of Master Speed. Canderous is awesome as long as you don't try and make him a ranged expert; make him a melee monster, and you'll have yourself a force to be reckoned with without having a Force to be reckoned with. Mission dual-wielding pistols is a damage machine as it is, even just with Master Critical Shot or whatever it's called; giving her the ability to debuff groups of enemies into being vulnerable to SA is a layer of frosting she doesn't need.

Would agree with what you said except for the bit about Mission. Mission is better suited for making the best use of her Sneak Attack through controlling her directly because she has low hit-points. That means not controlling your own character whenever you use her. That is not a good selling point. If we don't control her directly, then we make her into basically another version of Carth with single or dual pistols.

Zaalbar with pumped up Con, the Toughness feat tree, and the Conditioning feat tree, is a ****ing juggernaut. One of my earlier playthroughs, I got to the Star Forge and brought Jolee and Zaalbar; the two of us buffed everybody, and we started going to town, as usual. At some point, when all the bodies were on the floor, I realized Jolee was nearly down, while Zaalbar was both down and nowhere in sight...but there was a trail of bodies. So I followed the trail...and followed it...and followed it...and followed it...and finally, across the entire freaking map, I found Zaalbar, lying atop a pile of bodies that were only not in the more familiar "trail of bodies" format because there were too many of them for Zaalbar to keep barreling through them like a force of nature.

Only one problem here: To get the best use of Zaal, we have to get levels and beef him up. To can turn Canderous into a melee monster faster, and Candie gets free regen which we can use implants to increase. We also have to equip Zaal with special equipment because he doesn't get armor. With the right gear/feats/health, he can be a tank, but it does mean we may leave him behind a lot before bringing him out.

your main character is never going to be your skillmonkey when T3-M4 and Mission are things which exist so having more class skills (for the puny amount of skill points Jedi classes get) isn't useful either, so you aren't getting anything good out of its class thing.

We need the skills because the game puts us on our own quite a few times, and even more important, we need to have the repair skill for exploring HK's history and giving him stat bonuses.

Persuade is the only skill the PC gets, and keeping it high gives us major benefits, mainly that we can request better rewards, more credits, and can convince people of things until we fully pick up the mind-affecting force powers.

Regarding the classes, we only get two in game: A starting one of Soldier/Scout/Scoundrel, then we add in Jedi Guardian/Sentinel/Counselor. Once we pick a class to take, we are stuck with it, and the Jedi from the Start doesn't allow us to add in another Jedi class.

[AvatarVecna]

Bastila can be boring, yes, but also has Snark she can deliver. I don't remember any times that Juhani employed Snark. Plus we get Juhani by having the Jedi Council dump her on the PC. We should be requesting her to join not, not having her get dumped on us.

Bastila snark is weaksauce; it only seems interesting because the parts of the game where she's the most optimal NPC to bring with you, your other PC options are the stoic wookie, the paranoid pilot, the gruff mercenary, the uppity child, and the tin can who only communicates in beeps (who supposedly snarks, but their snark is weak because there's not really a good snarky tone to their beeping...and we don't really get a translation of the beeping snark). Of the lot of them, the only one strong in the snark is Mission, and her snark is of a non-entertaining variety usually.

How interesting a character is ends up being personal preference though, and Juhani has some simmering anger that can come out (I wish they'd fleshed out her romance option more, and given her more to work with in other areas, but what's done is done). I tend to like characters who aren't huge tools; Carth and Canderous are both tools, but they're paranoid and cunning tools, so they're acceptable; Mission and Zaalbar are only really tools where Revan is involved, and so they seem cool enough; Juhani is also only a tool in regards to the PC, and even then she's still salty over Taris, and will bring it up if pushed; T3-M4 is a total tool, hence why I use him for all of 30 seconds over the course of the entire game, and only because it's a requirement of the plot. This "are they a tool?" question is why Jolee and HK-47 are what I consider the best characters in the game: they don't have a single **** to give between the two of them. HK-47 is literally incapable of disobeying you, and he's still a badass who won't take **** from anybody.

And then there's Bastila, the tooliest tool to ever tool across the galaxy. Say what you will about Vrook, at least he had a method to his arrogance. Bastila, from start to finish, is a bitch and moan dinner combo with preach cobbler for dessert. Prior to her joining your team, she managed to get captured by a gang fill with incompetents, losing her lightsaber in the process, once she's freed, she immediately assumes you've been searching the planet with your head up your ass, and will only be competent now that she's in charge again, and she spends the rest of the game alternating between complaining at you for not being perfect and lecturing you on how to be perfect, despite only being an uppity padawan herself. She's got a stick up her ass the size of a half-staff labelled "Jedi Tool", and you know what? Even if I don't really agree with her code of ethics, I could at least respect her if she stuck by them, but no! Little miss "Perfect Little Padawan" caves in quicker than an elven mineshaft. There's four playable Jedi in this game: one attacked her Jedi Master in a fit of rage and is trying to get better, one is a gray ex-Jedi who left the Order after realizing he couldn't abide by their values anymore, another is the ex-Dark Lord Of The Sith on the road to redemption...and this prissy princess is the one that was the easiest to tempt away? The only thing interesting about her character was that she was the only Jedi on my team that wasn't even sort-of tainted by dark side bull****, and she tossed that away.

But hey, I shouldn't complain, I should treat this as an opportunity! I mean hell, every other Sith in the game has had some touch of personality in their voice acting, even the ones you kill as random encounters, and most of the Sith you can actually have conversations with (mostly on Korriban), you get to actually learn their philosophy to some extent and see why people can be attracted to that way of thinking. Plus, look at that outfit! It looks like Bastila took a level in Sexy Edgy Badass, how could this possibly be a bad thing? This is gonna save the character, right? Give them an interesting twist that makes them fun to interact with for the first time in the entire game?



Of course that doesn't happen. ****ing guess what happens instead. Bastila...gives a preachy, whiny speech about the dark side!!! She's everything that's boring and one-dimensional about the light-side, right up until she gets corrupted into being everything that's boring and one-dimensional about the dark side! She is, somehow, against all odds, an even bigger tool as a Sith than she ever was as a Jedi. Actually, that's not fair, she's just as much a Sith tool as a Jedi tool, it only feels worse because most Jedi feel like tools anyway, while most Sith come across more as interesting individuals than those uptight "perfect cog in the perfect machine" toolish Jedi.

Also, if we're gonna talk about characters we're being forced to travel with, Juhani travelling with you is a consequence of your decision to spare her life; personally, I don't see that as her being forced on me as much as I see a Jedi being so inspired by my words and actions that they'll follow me. No, when I think of a character being forced on me, I think of characters I'm literally incapable of choosing not to take along, or else the entire game grinds to a halt; at least you get a chance to kill Juhani if you don't want her tagging along. Hell, if we're counting roleplaying, you can never bring Mission with you and pretend you left her on Taris, and you can play the game RPing the guilt over leaving her behind. Can't do that with Bastila, though; even if you don't ever add her to your team, she shows up to talk to you about stupid visions, or you're forced to adventure with her on the ship that captures you, or her turning to the dark side is a plot point, and you've got to end up fighting her, while doing everything in your power to talk your way out of the fight, even though you should probably just fight her because fighting means you can be done with her quicker and you don't have to bother with trying to literally seduce Bastila to the light side.

The whole point of bringing Jolee is for his personality, snark comments, and the benefit he provides with the Force. He is the only Counselor in the game besides the PC, and happens to more valuable I found compared to the other Jedi Characters. Plus his story of being a former Hero and the stories he tells allows for quite a lot of Humor.

I'm aware of why people are interested in bringing along Jolee (hell, why I'm also interested in bringing Jolee): he's one of the only interesting cohorts you get, and he's arguably the most powerful to boot. I'm just saying that sometimes I don't want to just let my force wizard turn my game into a movie that I don't have to play; this game is easy enough as it is, turning on "why bother trying" mode is adding insult to injury. I'll usually end up making him a team buffer rather than messing around with debuff/attack powers, just because it makes him more of a team player (although giving him an area debuff gives him some synergy with Mission).

Interesting? Did we play the same game? Juhani is basically Bastila but without the plot coupon visions, and gets added in a "my species doth protest" bit. Plus, the council dumps her on us when we should have requested her presence on this mission.

As for the Force Jump, while we can take Guardian for our prestige class, thereby acquiring the same ability so taking her along because of that is a flawed point.

As mentioned above, interesting is a matter of opinion. I find Juhani's flaws and currents of anger beneath the surface more interesting than Bastila's eternal resting bitch face and preach cobbler. I also find the character I have the option to kill/pretend doesn't exist to be far less "forced upon me" than the character who spends half the game as the princess I need to rescue from another castle (who spends the other half of the game convincing me of how that rescue operation is me actively trying to kill my own entertainment).

Force Jump is about the only visually interesting thing to watch (IMO) on these decade+ old graphics, but it's difficult to watch from the PC's PoV; much better to watch somebody else Force Jump. Plus, Guardians are boring for just solving all problems with lightsaber-violence, the same way Force Wizards solve all problems with power-violence. I play Sentinel, whose only specialties are "being just skilled enough to be considered vaguely competent at multiple skills" and "not getting ganked like a chump by cheap moves". Of course, even then I only really bring Juhani along for conversation and what storylines she has; I'm perfectly capable of murdering my problems away without assistance, thank you very much.

Would agree with what you said except for the bit about Mission. Mission is better suited for making the best use of her Sneak Attack through controlling her directly because she has low hit-points. That means not controlling your own character whenever you use her. That is not a good selling point. If we don't control her directly, then we make her into basically another version of Carth with single or dual pistols.

1) SA is a thing that happens on its own if conditions allow it to occur, at which point she'll be getting it automatically. It does not require player activation.

2) Master Critical Shot allows Mission to set people up to SA them; there is no reason not to get it for her.

3) The game has this interesting feature where you can pause the game and switch between all characters to select their actions, allowing you to control all characters at once. You can even select multiple actions for them to take, allowing you to essentially set their actions for the rest of the combat.

4) The AI is actually pretty good at activating MCS on its own, so you shouldn't even need to switch characters for Mission to set up her SA.

5) If anybody else in the power has a debuff force power like Wave or Insanity, Mission doesn't even need to set up SA herself, she can just start blasting away and adding up all those d6s.

[quote]Only one problem here: To get the best use of Zaal, we have to get levels and beef him up. To can turn Canderous into a melee monster faster, and Candie gets free regen which we can use implants to increase. We also have to equip Zaal with special equipment because he doesn't get armor. With the right gear/feats/health, he can be a tank, but it does mean we may leave him behind a lot before bringing him out./quote]

Canderous starts with Fast Healing, which means he effectively takes a couple less damage every round; Zaalbar, meanwhile, starts with the equivalent of the entire Toughness tree (which can stack with actually take the Toughness tree), meaning totally Vanilla Zaalbar is taking a couple less damage every attack. Unless Canderous' Regen is much faster than I recall, it's not gonna keep up with Zaalbar's DR in terms of damage mitigation (although admittedly it means Canderous needs less healing during downtime between fights than Big Z does). Zaalbar starts off with much higher Str/Con, though, and automatic access to implants.

Not to say Canderous is bad at all; he's generally got much better offense, and armor is certainly helpful. But I've played the game dozens of times, with dozens of team-ups, and it's never been Canderous leaving a trail of dead bodies behind him to put my PC to shame. Canderous, for as badass as he is, has never racked up a higher body count in a fight than my Guardian PC...but Zaalbar has.

We need the skills because the game puts us on our own quite a few times, and even more important, we need to have the repair skill for exploring HK's history and giving him stat bonuses.

Persuade is the only skill the PC gets, and keeping it high gives us major benefits, mainly that we can request better rewards, more credits, and can convince people of things until we fully pick up the mind-affecting force powers.

Regarding the classes, we only get two in game: A starting one of Soldier/Scout/Scoundrel, then we add in Jedi Guardian/Sentinel/Counselor. Once we pick a class to take, we are stuck with it, and the Jedi from the Start doesn't allow us to add in another Jedi class.

Persuade, Repair, and Treat Injury are the skills I consider most important; if I had to pick a fourth skill for Revan (which I usually do, going Scout/Sentinel), I probably go with Awareness. From there it depends.

I suggest Scout 8/Sentinel 12. Pretty standard,but there you go. *shrug*

[russdm]

Also, if we're gonna talk about characters we're being forced to travel with, Juhani travelling with you is a consequence of your decision to spare her life; personally, I don't see that as her being forced on me as much as I see a Jedi being so inspired by my words and actions that they'll follow me.

I also find the character I have the option to kill/pretend doesn't exist to be far less "forced upon me" than the character who spends half the game as the princess I need to rescue from another castle (who spends the other half of the game convincing me of how that rescue operation is me actively trying to kill my own entertainment).

The Jedi Council is the one that tells you to take Juhani, she doesn't request it from you as much as the council says to bring her. If she does request to come with us, she doesn't have to constantly give us crap about Taris, our life, and whatever it was. It has been a while since I last played, but I recall finding Juhani annoying.

A Side Note: Both Bastila and Juhani have Jedi sticks up their butts. It's kind of the point of being a Jedi, being an obnoxious tool.

Only one problem here: To get the best use of Zaal, we have to get levels and beef him up. To can turn Canderous into a melee monster faster, and Candie gets free regen which we can use implants to increase. We also have to equip Zaal with special equipment because he doesn't get armor. With the right gear/feats/health, he can be a tank, but it does mean we may leave him behind a lot before bringing him out.

Canderous starts with Fast Healing, which means he effectively takes a couple less damage every round; Zaalbar, meanwhile, starts with the equivalent of the entire Toughness tree (which can stack with actually take the Toughness tree), meaning totally Vanilla Zaalbar is taking a couple less damage every attack. Unless Canderous' Regen is much faster than I recall, it's not gonna keep up with Zaalbar's DR in terms of damage mitigation (although admittedly it means Canderous needs less healing during downtime between fights than Big Z does). Zaalbar starts off with much higher Str/Con, though, and automatic access to implants.

Not to say Canderous is bad at all; he's generally got much better offense, and armor is certainly helpful. But I've played the game dozens of times, with dozens of team-ups, and it's never been Canderous leaving a trail of dead bodies behind him to put my PC to shame. Canderous, for as badass as he is, has never racked up a higher body count in a fight than my Guardian PC...but Zaalbar has.

I think it happens to be more that Zaal takes a few levels to get online. As a result, you end up playing with other characters.


My main party groupings usually ended up with PC, Jolee, Candie or HK or Carth. That was because Jolee had the best interplay with other characters. Candie loves Jolee, Bastila trades talks about the Jedi Order and council, Carth discusses heroics with Jolee, and HK+Jolee=Snark potential.

Dropping the flaw bits. Will cover the rest later.

Regarding the Characters

I mainly play to have fun, and I quickly became bored with some characters. Others didn't have a lot of story or it seems to fit much, but let us cover the characters, some of their history, and definitely their classes, plus some extra bits since we are going to be playing therapist or droid repairman to everyone in the party)

The Party, In order of Joining

1) Carth Onasi, Soldier, Joins on Taris

2) Mission Vao, Scoundrel, Joins on Taris

3) Zaalbar, Scout, Joins on Taris

4) Bastila Shan, Jedi Sentinel, Taris

5) T3-M4, Droid Slicer/Scoundrel, Taris

6) Canderous Order, Soldier, Taris

7) Juhani, Jedi Guardian, Optional on Dantioone (Thank Goodness!)

8) HK-47, Droid Soldier, Tatioone (Optional if you want to slaughter the Tuskens, Required for you want to conclude things peacefully, which happens to be Ironic considering that HK is an assassin droid)

9) Jolee Bindo, Jedi Counselor, Kashyyyk (Vital to get past an obstacle, then signs on. If you aren't talking with him every chance you get, then you are missing out)

To understand details, we need to cover classes. We get two pairs of three, with Soldier/Scout/Scoundrel, and then Guardian/Sentinel/Counselor. They each have a different focus.

Soldier - Basically the D&D Fighter in Star Wars. Can shoot things with blasters or just hit people with melee weapons. Not exactly that impressive beyond that area, but gets a lot of feats.

Scout -A mix of Soldier and Scoundrel, while getting implants. Implants allow for tweaking stats, so everyone should get feats for that. Scouts get less skill points than Scoundrels, but they can fight not as well as Soldiers.

Scoundrel - Notorious for possessing one of the most random gameplay element, the Cloaking device. We can personally cloak our character, though if you get a device and put ranks in stealth, you can cloak anybody. Cloaking would be nice except that there are few instances where it helps, and we don't really get XP for using it, I don't think. We do get XP for reprogramming droids or setting up electronic devices to blow up. Why sneaking past enemies doesn't give us any rewards means it is only for setting up a good initial strike. Also, the cloaking goes away with cut-scenes, making this ability less useful. Also does the same for shields, which disappear thanks to cut-scenes (this is due to most cut-scenes lasting longer than the shield time)

Scoundrels get Sneak Attack, which the same as the ability from Rogues. It only applies to certain attacks, and has some rules to it. Got to take the time and check out the ability at character creation to examine how it works, since it should tell us.

Pause was mentioned, though it tends to freeze everything, mainly our characters to fight. It could be useful I suppose.

For Jedi Classes

Guardians are basically Force Using Soldiers, and can leap around to attack enemies. Note that the Force Jump attack only works on single attacks. Sounds nice except for the sheer number of late game force using enemies we will end up encountering, as Korriban which is the home to the dark jedi/sith enemies is usually visited last when you are collecting the last starmap. You could visit earlier, though.

Sentinels are basically Scouts with Force Powers but not as many as counselors get.

Counselors are Scoundrels with Force Powers, and a lot of them. They lack combat oomph compared to the other Jedi Classes, but the Jedi classes are prestige classes or multiclassing for the PC.

The best or most of the Force powers require not wearing armor to use. So whatever way you go, you will very likely not being wearing any armor. So items that you can use to keep you alive without armor is important to use. Some powers work with Armor, so maybe you have some, but none of your Jedi Characters can wear armor, and neither can Zaalbar.

(Will continue later, late here, and I have quite a bit to say)

[Platinius]

It might be lost due to Jennifer Hale's adult voice (I didn't know it myself until I read it somewhere), but Bastila Shan is 16! Think about that for a while, if she wasn't an easily influenced, arrogant and bitchy tool (which stems from her terrible insecurity she tries to mask) she'd be a poorly written teenager and if you think about that one for a while, she is in many ways a very well written adolescent particularly in comparison to the typical pandering the target audience (adolescents games and books along these lines are sold to) is used to.
The point is, if you don't like her because she behaves like a bratty, spoiled teenager, then that is because that is exactly what she is.
I see what you did there Bioware


Also, think about the age of each individual non-droid character. The order of general smarts (from highest to lowest) is about as follows (up for debate, it is more of an approximation anyway) along with their approximate agea at the time. Revan is excluded because Revan is wise beyond his years and the leader for a reason.

Jolee Bindo (60 at least) > Canderous Ordo (50 at least) > Carth Onasi (mid 30ties) > Juhani (early twenties at the highest) > Mission Vao/Zaalbar (14/ he can't be more than in his early wookie twenties) > Bastila Shan (16)

Note that the characters general age pretty much fits their general smarts with Bastila being the dumbest because she has an over inflated ego. She also has Daddy issues.
I rated Mission higher than Bastila because she actually knows how to survive and doesn't run headlong into danger.
(Canderous' ego is not over inflated, he got the scars, balls and skills to back up anything he says)
I interpreted Juhani's comparative lack of dialogue as her shutting the f*** up and listening before speaking and acting. It makes sense too since she thought she fell to the dark side when you meet her and tries not to be the sexy amazonian hotheaded catgirl.

PS: it is heavily implied that Juhani is a lesbian and that she was in love with Belaya (fellow Padawn that will turn up on Korriban as a Sith if you kill Juhani) and that had a crush on her Jedi Mistress Quatra (the one she thought she killed in training when she lost her temper)

[GloatingSwine]

We need the skills because the game puts us on our own quite a few times, and even more important, we need to have the repair skill for exploring HK's history and giving him stat bonuses.

The game puts you on your own in places where the main thing to do is murderise, you barely need any non-murder skills on your PC, and you only need an effective Repair skill of 17 to fully repair HK. Which is easy to get if you started as Scout because you keep all your class skills from your first class, then you just boost Repair to 17 and use all those levelups you didn't waste on Taris for Persuade on your Jedi class which all have it as a class skill.

The best or most of the Force powers require not wearing armor to use. So whatever way you go, you will very likely not being wearing any armor. So items that you can use to keep you alive without armor is important to use. Some powers work with Armor, so maybe you have some, but none of your Jedi Characters can wear armor, and neither can Zaalbar.

There's actually a reasonable argument for wearing armour if you want to be a combat monster. You can still cast Force Valor and be affected by Force Speed if cast by an ally, but you'll barely need Speed because you can pump your damage to such insane numbers that everything dies from at most two combat rounds (and it would have cost you one of those to cast speed). The trick is that you can wear the Powered Endoskeleton armour which gives +3 Str/Con and so pumps your damage further, especially when combined with the +5 Str gauntlets, the strength belt, +3 Str for being max LS guardian (or 1D6 damage for being max DS), and Master Valor. (and 3D6+4 from a Force Jump/Sneak Attack combo if you started with Scoundrel 5)

I suggest Scout 8/Sentinel 12. Pretty standard,but there you go. *shrug*

Scout 8? There are people who still waste that many levels on the opening classes? Scout 4 at most. Remember that the more levels you stack up before you Jedi up the more force powers & points you'll end up with and the earlier you'll unlock the master level of your Jedi class specific feat.

Even if you were going to be insane and pick Sentinel for some godforsaken reason a Scout 4/Sentinel 16 would have 4 more force powers, would have gotten their final immunity at level 16 instead of not getting it until 20 when its far too late to have any effect, and only paid two* feat picks to do it.

* Well, one, but you would use one more for level 3 implant. But then feat choices are not so important in this game because all you need is the implants and one of either Power Attack or Flurry which are p. close in effect, everything else worth having on the PC is a force power, so after three you're basically spending them on whatever.

Scout 4/Guardian 16 would be better, of course. Same number of force power picks, lightsaber specialisation for more to hit and damage, very slightly fewer force points (but the same as scout 8/Sentinel 12), more feat picks than either scout combination, better to hit (+19 instead of +15), same saves, force jump instead of a basically useless immunity to things that you can defeat with saves which doesn't work on enemy force powers, and more hitpoints.

[AvatarVecna]

Scout 8? There are people who still waste that many levels on the opening classes? Scout 4 at most. Remember that the more levels you stack up before you Jedi up the more force powers & points you'll end up with and the earlier you'll unlock the master level of your Jedi class specific feat.

Even if you were going to be insane and pick Sentinel for some godforsaken reason a Scout 4/Sentinel 16 would have 4 more force powers, would have gotten their final immunity at level 16 instead of not getting it until 20 when its far too late to have any effect, and only paid two* feat picks to do it.

* Well, one, but you would use one more for level 3 implant. But then feat choices are not so important in this game because all you need is the implants and one of either Power Attack or Flurry which are p. close in effect, everything else worth having on the PC is a force power, so after three you're basically spending them on whatever.

Scout 4/Guardian 16 would be better, of course. Same number of force power picks, lightsaber specialisation for more to hit and damage, very slightly fewer force points (but the same as scout 8/Sentinel 12), more feat picks than either scout combination, better to hit (+19 instead of +15), same saves, force jump instead of a basically useless immunity to things that you can defeat with saves which doesn't work on enemy force powers, and more hitpoints.

I'm not playing Scout 8/Sentinel 12 because it's optimal, I'm doing it because it's the simplest set-up that's even the slightest bit challenging. Of course there's more optimal builds, but none of that matters because no matter what setting the difficulty is at, the game is piss-easy. I've played a successful run with Scoundrel 4/Consolar 16 who refused to use Force powers; I've played a successful run with Soldier 5/Consolar 15, fighting in heavy armor while dual-wielding un-upgraded weapons; I've played a successful run where I didn't even bother leveling up into double digits. That last one was the only one where the game got difficult, but it was a Scoundrel 8/Consolar 1 run, so I just snuck around everywhere once I had the best gear (which surprisingly isn't always the Genoharadan stuff, although it usually comes in second). About the only time the standard game gets a bit difficult normally is when I leave the Jedi Academy and go straight for Korriban; the single most difficult fight in the game isn't Malak, or Bastila, or waves of enemies on the Star Forge, it's solo'ing two terentaks as a 12th lvl character. One day I'm gonna break down and look up a way to use the console to somehow switch back to gaining Scout levels after Dantooine.

It's not optimal, no, but that's the point. It's vaguely challenging.

KotOR 2 is better about this, though; the game's enemies level up with you, the level layouts include more traps or ambushes, the enemies use better tactics on the whole, and the change in difficulty setting actually means something. There's times I actually died due to making a stupid mistake in Traya's Academy, for example (not against Traya or Sion, sadly).

[KillingAScarab]

Scout 8? There are people who still waste that many levels on the opening classes? Scout 4 at most. Remember that the more levels you stack up before you Jedi up the more force powers & points you'll end up with and the earlier you'll unlock the master level of your Jedi class specific feat.

There are also people, such as myself, who have tried to adhere to the minimum non-Jedi build guides and eventually gave up because it wasn't fun. Fun > optimization.

[GloatingSwine]

There are also people, such as myself, who have tried to adhere to the minimum non-Jedi build guides and eventually gave up because it wasn't fun. Fun > optimization.

The secret is drugs. Inject yourself with all of the drugs for any reasonably tough fight and you make up the difference easily.

[AvatarVecna]

The secret is drugs. Inject yourself with all of the drugs for any reasonably tough fight and you make up the difference easily.

And even that's only really necessary if you're using a crap build on the highest difficulty.

[LibraryOgre]

See, I'm a blatant skill point whore. My favorite build runs Scoundrel to Sentinel, mostly because of skill points. Last time, I went Scout to Sentinel, so I could wear better armors, since I realized the only force powers I used were Force Wave and Healing... other powers I left to other characters. By late game, I was only a few points shy of maximum in every skill (and max in Persuade, naturally), and could just force wave my way through a lot of encounters.

[danzibr]

Question: anyone go ds force caster? How'd the fight with Malak go?

I went ds force caster but went neutral right at the end. Malak was so friggin tough.

[AvatarVecna]

Question: anyone go ds force caster? How'd the fight with Malak go?

I went ds force caster but went neutral right at the end. Malak was so friggin tough.

Malak is a guardian with Force Immunity; as a result, the game attempts to require you to face a Guardian 20 in a lightsaber duel, which either requires a solidly built combatant or a mediocre combatant buffed to high heaven and high as a kite. However, if you have Force Breach (a power that's basically pointless to use against any other foe in the game), you can pop that immunity and start going to town. Force Storm and Death Field are both good for whittling down his HP in huge chunks at a time, although if he's not immobilized, he'll be carving into yours with his Lightsaber; incidentally, that's why Insanity, Force Wave (Whirlwind if you have it), and/or Stasis Field are useful. Finally, Plague is a single target irresistible poison effect that will basically kneecap any individual foe over a long fight; for multiple reasons, a breach'd Malak is basically the only enemy in the game this power is really worth using on.

None of this matters if you don't have breach, though.

To survive whatever Malak is able to throw your way, you'll probably want item-based immunities, since those can't be dispelled by Malak's Breach. In particular, immunity to crits and electricity damage is good, although you'll also want a good energy shield if you're going to be casting force spells while he tries to lightsaber your face off.

[LibraryOgre]

I'll say, a mod I would love to have? One that lets you access earlier powers on a power chain. Force Wave is fantastic for turning you into a grenade, but, sometimes, you just want a single target immobilizer.

[russdm]

I tend to play for fun, and I have died against different enemies on Taris, like Ice in the dueling Arena, the sith Governor, and Against Davik & Calo. That was on easy, and I can recall going Soldier and having it happen. Interestingly, if you are level 5 or so with all three classes I think, you go power drive through the arena combatants, then take on Bendak, who has the other moddable gun to give Carth.

You don't need Breach to take out Malak, just use the lightsabers and the Force.

The best setup for all characters is to dual wield and Flurry, except for Jolee or HK; with them you just pick up repeating shots for HK, and single weapon focus for Jolee, though I doubled up sabers for him as well.

Flurry is the best because you get to attack multiple times, and yes, it screws on your defense, but with dual wielding plus flurry should take out most enemies. Terentateks are basically the only thing that really give me trouble, because the two on korriban both attack at once. It is a tough fight.

Would have to say that snagging the best equipment really helps in game. It can help.

Most of my playthroughs have had deaths, like fighting against the assassin lady on Taris, though that might be more because I take on challenges with lower levels, like fighting against rakghouls. A non-soldier/Non-Melee plus Carth & Mission in the sewers can be nasty. It is just more fun that way. And I have no issues reloading save games. "Oops, died a few times. Well let's try it again and something else."

My gameplay improved once I became aware of the combat scripts to give characters. That helped a lot except for the sheer number of grenades that kept getting tossed.

Getting Force powers in armor, does mean bringing Jolee along. The Heal power is useful, but I do bring medpacs along. Can recall dying to the Mando leader on Dantioone and sometimes dying to one of his subordinate groups. Have also died fighting Calo on Tatioone, and Against Darth Bandon before.

We can go with Normal Difficulty or a tougher difficulty, and I will/might mention how many times I had to re-load.

Besides, it looks so far that Scout has great support with no preference for Gender, but if I am going to have some real fun, I will go with female revan and the special options for female revan mod. That way we could hang out with Bastila, and go explore Juhani's deal. Probably using the Gain force powers mod, should help some.

What about difficulty, Normal and mess myself up or go harder, pray to the dice gods?

Character: Female Scout, Name (Still undecided, Preferring something funny), probably blaster focused, with points put into Wis and Cha for later fun.