Advice for a new lich?

[Meierme176]

So here's my profile,
Rogue: 4 Wiz: 5 Unseen seer: 3
Str: 14 Dex: 20 Con: 15 (not that it matters) Int: 21 Wis: 17 Cha: 20 (I rolled extremely well with the help of some house rules)
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Craft wondrous item, Craft magic arms and armor, Craft Wand, Practiced Spell Caster, Silent Spell (free with Unseen), Lich Leadership
I focus all of my skill points around spell casting and rogue **** (all of my senses, sneak, open lock, disable device, etc.)

I just became a rogue last level but didn't know how the +4 adjustment really worked. I didn't realize that I would have to get the xp to go from 12 to 17 (I thought it was going to be like 16 to 17) so my DM is being nice and understands that I'm new, so he is letting me get the xp to get to lvl 13, allowing me to seek out a wish from a wizard and allowing me to wish to reapply my template so that it was like I got it at lvl 13 instead (so I can get lvl 5 spells).

I was looking for some advice on some magic items to look into, feats I should take, undead I should enlist under my wing, advice on the best cohort (thinking lvl 5 fighter ghost), and really all around advice for a lich. My dreams are to become a demi lich, create my own plane, fill it with undead, open a portal in front of the biggest city in the game and wreck their ****. Hopefully effectively taking over the city and making it an undead/ evil paradise.

[OldTrees1]

It would help us to get to know your character better.



However some general advice:
1) Like most undead you now need to worry about Anti-Undead spells and spells that slip past your immunities (Disintegration targets your weakened Fort save). Also I believe your chosen form of undeath still has 1-2 instant death threats that will ignore your chosen means of avoiding destruction (still that is down from the uncountable ways you could die back before your undeath).

2) Protecting your Phylactery is important. Common answers are either to lose it where nobody can find it or to lock it away where nobody can get to it. Given your roguish background I don't know how much you would trust yourself to lock it away.

3) Welcome to the Immortals club! This might throw a wrench in or otherwise alter your previous perspective. You might find yourself both more patient and more daring.

[Meierme176]

my characters personlity is very evil, I enjoy doing things that make the rest of my group go "oh ****.. really dude?" as for combat I like to stay ranged, hence the bow feats and magic. I have been delving far more into the arcane arts to further my power.

Outside of combat I have been trying to grow my undead following and locate a suitable place to store them.

[weckar]

Avoid other liches like the plague. They know all your weaknesses, and have likely been in the game a lot longer than you have.

If you want some neat power to complement your rogue abilities, I THINK ToH has a Life Sense feat for undead....

[OldTrees1]

my characters personlity is very evil, I enjoy doing things that make the rest of my group go "oh ****.. really dude?" as for combat I like to stay ranged, hence the bow feats and magic. I have been delving far more into the arcane arts to further my power.

Outside of combat I have been trying to grow my undead following and locate a suitable place to store them.

Why did you choose to become an Undead and more specifically a Lich?
What motivated your training in rogue skills: senses[scout] & disable[dungeoneering]?

How many skeletons is too many skeletons for you to bring with you from a balance/gameplay point of view?

The LifeSense feat is in Libris Mortis. It is a Grade A sense.
The Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness allows one to Hide from Grade B senses (Blindsense, Blindsight, Scent, & Temorsense)

[LordOfCain]

Hide/protect your phylactery: look at any of the phylactery threads here or start your own. Also ask your DM if you can use the template class at http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a instead of gaining 4? LA at one time.

[ATHATH]

Question: Does your character perform evil actions because he has realistic motivations for them, or does he do them just for the sake of being evil?

[Meierme176]

Why did you choose to become an Undead and more specifically a Lich?

I wanted to go the lich rout because I have always loved necromancy and a Demilich looks amazing

What motivated your training in rogue skills: senses[scout] & disable[dungeoneering]?

I was advised against arcane because it was my first character and they thought I'd hate it. They were wrong, at lvl 4 I picked up wizard and have been going down that path. In order to sync my character better I picked up Unseen Seer. It has worked well because I am a great rogue, and I can provide the buffs for the rest of the team. Now that I am a lich I have been taking the roll as the tank seeing as my normal AC is 30 and i have a 15 damage reduction. At our level I am a 1 man army now. I went from the under dog (as an evil team and the new guy, if someone wanted something of mine they just took it because I was so squishy) to someone they actively fear (after touching a bothersome cleric and permanently paralyzed him, their attitude changed really quick). They are assassins and rogues

Spoiler

Show

who's the squishy one now?

so the death attack doesn't do ****.

How many skeletons is too many skeletons for you to bring with you from a balance/gameplay point of view?

As many as I can fit in a portable hole. I still need to go into town and stuff. However as mentioned before I am trying to create an army. I have taken lich leadership and my lvl 4 is going to be a wight. I am going to paralyze civilians, bring them back to my base, throw them in a cage, have him turn them into more wights, and eventually when I have enough cages I will teleport them into a highly populated area to create more of themselves and destroy a town.

The LifeSense feat is in Libris Mortis. It is a Grade A sense.

I think that is awesome, I do have arcane sight permanencied as well as low light. If they have magic on I can see them through walls. If we have something permanencied we rule that the dispel only works for a short period of time.

Hide/protect your phylactery: look at any of the phylactery threads here or start your own.

That being destroyed isn't a concern at all. It is in the hands of a powerful god. someone would have to destroy him to destroy me. Before I became undead he has prevented my death multiple times, and was my deity for the ritual, providing the unimaginably evil tasks required to ascend. So unless I somehow piss him off I think I'm good.

ask your DM if you can use the template class at http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/sp/20031212a instead of gaining 4? LA at one time.

I asked before I did it. He said liches are powerful and need more of a downside. I do agree and decided to take the +4 (without realizing what it really meant (I'm still new, this is my first character))

Question: Does your character perform evil actions because he has realistic motivations for them, or does he do them just for the sake of being evil?

I do it mostly just to be evil, and I think it's fun.

[LordOfCain]

I wanted to go the lich rout because I have always loved necromancy and a Demilich looks amazing



I was advised against arcane because it was my first character and they thought I'd hate it. They were wrong, at lvl 4 I picked up wizard and have been going down that path. In order to sync my character better I picked up Unseen Seer. It has worked well because I am a great rogue, and I can provide the buffs for the rest of the team. Now that I am a lich I have been taking the roll as the tank seeing as my normal AC is 30 and i have a 15 damage reduction. At our level I am a 1 man army now. I went from the under dog (as an evil team and the new guy, if someone wanted something of mine they just took it because I was so squishy) to someone they actively fear (after touching a bothersome cleric and permanently paralyzed him, their attitude changed really quick). They are assassins and rogues

Spoiler

Show

who's the squishy one now?

so the death attack doesn't do ****.



As many as I can fit in a portable hole. I still need to go into town and stuff. However as mentioned before I am trying to create an army. I have taken lich leadership and my lvl 4 is going to be a wight. I am going to paralyze civilians, bring them back to my base, throw them in a cage, have him turn them into more wights, and eventually when I have enough cages I will teleport them into a highly populated area to create more of themselves and destroy a town.



I think that is awesome, I do have arcane sight permanencied as well as low light. If they have magic on I can see them through walls. If we have something permanencied we rule that the dispel only works for a short period of time.



That being destroyed isn't a concern at all. It is in the hands of a powerful god. someone would have to destroy him to destroy me. Before I became undead he has prevented my death multiple times, and was my deity for the ritual, providing the unimaginably evil tasks required to ascend. So unless I somehow piss him off I think I'm good.



I asked before I did it. He said liches are powerful and need more of a downside. I do agree and decided to take the +4 (without realizing what it really meant (I'm still new, this is my first character))



I do it mostly just to be evil, and I think it's fun.

Never rely on someone nor powerful than yourself for your safety. In fact I would focus on getting rid of him ASAP.

[OldTrees1]

I wanted to go the lich rout because I have always loved necromancy and a Demilich looks amazing



I was advised against arcane because it was my first character and they thought I'd hate it. They were wrong, at lvl 4 I picked up wizard and have been going down that path. In order to sync my character better I picked up Unseen Seer. It has worked well because I am a great rogue, and I can provide the buffs for the rest of the team. Now that I am a lich I have been taking the roll as the tank seeing as my normal AC is 30 and i have a 15 damage reduction. At our level I am a 1 man army now. I went from the under dog (as an evil team and the new guy, if someone wanted something of mine they just took it because I was so squishy) to someone they actively fear (after touching a bothersome cleric and permanently paralyzed him, their attitude changed really quick). They are assassins and rogues

Spoiler

Show

who's the squishy one now?

so the death attack doesn't do ****.

Those questions were meant to be asking about your character's reasons and motivations. Although it being your first character you may or may not have thought about it like that yet.

As many as I can fit in a portable hole.

That was meant as more a balance, and game flow question. However I think your answer informed me that you should probably stick to Animate Dead & Undead Leadership rather than using the larger undead army spells.

I think that is awesome, I do have arcane sight permanencied as well as low light. If they have magic on I can see them through walls. If we have something permanencied we rule that the dispel only works for a short period of time.

Oh, then you already have a Grade A sense (Arcane Sight).

[Meierme176]

Never rely on someone nor powerful than yourself for your safety. In fact I would focus on getting rid of him ASAP.

I didn't actually have a choice. He kind of controls me. He takes over my body a lot and makes me do **** I wouldn't normally do. I still think lich was the way to go. He could kill me whenever he wants anyway. I kind of took the "if you cant beat him, join him" attitude.

Those questions were meant to be asking about your character's reasons and motivations. Although it being your first character you may or may not have thought about it like that yet.

I play him as closely to the way I think I would do things. I have been learning how the roll play works though. Its getting easier to do.

That was meant as more a balance, and game flow question. However I think your answer informed me that you should probably stick to Animate Dead & Undead Leadership rather than using the larger undead army spells.

lvl one skeletons would probably just clog up the game, that's why I would just send them without me being there and let the DM kind of come up with how it went down based on how I worked it. higher lvl undead though we have found to be quite useful and are just played as normal. I have their sheets ready to be used as a summon. Also there are undead army spells? like what?

[elonin]

Never trust your placatory to anyone. Xyrcon does it in the comic and for all he knew Redcloak could have destroyed it even for all the magic he protected it with. In your situation having a god hold it just makes it all that much easier (not that it would be difficult for a god to finish you anyway). Are you aware that adopting demilich requires prerequisites you'll never meet? Not sure but i suspect it requires epic casting and has a +20 LA. At the time you have absorbed that cost (if you were a caster) you'd be more powerful being anything else than by becoming a demilich whose powers will not matter when you get them.

[Meierme176]

Never trust your placatory to anyone. Xyrcon does it in the comic and for all he knew Redcloak could have destroyed it even for all the magic he protected it with. In your situation having a god hold it just makes it all that much easier (not that it would be difficult for a god to finish you anyway). Are you aware that adopting demilich requires prerequisites you'll never meet? Not sure but i suspect it requires epic casting and has a +20 LA. At the time you have absorbed that cost (if you were a caster) you'd be more powerful being anything else than by becoming a demilich whose powers will not matter when you get them.

Yeah as stated I didn't have a choice, he kind of just took it from me.

I'm not sure where you are getting your demilich; The lich must be a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric of at least 21st level. Challenge Rating: same as lich +6

[Meierme176]

At least that's what my DM told me

[OldTrees1]

I play him as closely to the way I think I would do things. I have been learning how the roll play works though. Its getting easier to do.

Like all skills it is one that grows from practice and experience.

lvl one skeletons would probably just clog up the game, that's why I would just send them without me being there and let the DM kind of come up with how it went down based on how I worked it. higher lvl undead though we have found to be quite useful and are just played as normal. I have their sheets ready to be used as a summon. Also there are undead army spells? like what?

The 2nd level spell Command Undead [Player's Handbook] and the 6th level spell Animate Dread Warrior [Unapproachable East] both greatly increase one's army of undead. However they do so far too well for keeping the undead in the foreground (too powerful and clogs up the game too much). My advice would be to ignore them for now.

I'm not sure where you are getting your demilich; The lich must be a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric of at least 21st level. Challenge Rating: same as lich +6

21st level is Epic level (although does not require Epic Spellcasting) and Demilich's Level Adjustment (not CR) is visible in the table in the Epic Level Handbook to anyone that does the math (ECL of the sample Demilich - HD of the sample Demilich = LA of the Demilich). Although even then the LA is +12 (+8 from Demilich and +4 from Lich) so it only costs you 12 levels. At 25th effective level (21 levels + Lich) you would qualify for the Demilich transformation. This would mean it would take the xp from 25th-34th level before you gain another level after becoming a Demilich.

So Demilich is a long way off. However your DM might include it in an epilogue.

[Meierme176]

21st level is Epic level (although does not require Epic Spellcasting) and Demilich's Level Adjustment (not CR) is visible in the table in the Epic Level Handbook to anyone that does the math (ECL of the sample Demilich - HD of the sample Demilich = LA of the Demilich). Although even then the LA is +12 (+8 from Demilich and +4 from Lich) so it only costs you 12 levels. At 25th effective level (21 levels + Lich) you would qualify for the Demilich transformation. This would mean it would take the xp from 25th-34th level before you gain another level after becoming a Demilich.

So Demilich is a long way off. However your DM might include it in an epilogue.

He has been giving us fights usually far beyond our challenge rating to see how we take them, we have been doing well. He also is a fan of quest XP, so when we do something we are told to do we get a bit of extra xp. I do agree it is a long way away, but he wants to have experience DMing an epic campaign, so instead of making us completely re roll a new character when we die, he lets us make one whos effective CL is equal to the average of the groups. he also mentioned when I retire my character he will probably play a big part in the next campaign as an NPC.

[Meierme176]

Also I have taken on a lvl 5 fighter ghost as my cohort. I was wondering if I give her hand wraps enchanted with ghost touch, can she be used to interact with the material world? Also If that works and I equip her corpse with a bag of holding, can she use it? Seeing as a bag of holding is an extra dimensional space it would make sense that it would work on both planes. Lastly, when she uses Malevolence, It isn't stated that she must be manifested to do it. Can she do it from the ethereal plane? as to not be detected unless they pass the will save.

[OldTrees1]

Also I have taken on a lvl 5 fighter ghost as my cohort. I was wondering if I give her hand wraps enchanted with ghost touch, can she be used to interact with the material world? Also If that works and I equip her corpse with a bag of holding, can she use it? Seeing as a bag of holding is an extra dimensional space it would make sense that it would work on both planes. Lastly, when she uses Malevolence, It isn't stated that she must be manifested to do it. Can she do it from the ethereal plane? as to not be detected unless they pass the will save.

1) Ghosts can only wear/wield Ghost Touch objects. However the Ghostly Grasp feat from Libris Mortis changes that.

2a) Equipping the corpse will not effect the ghost's ghostly equipment. However you could physically travel to the ethereal plane to hand them the bag.
2b) A Bag of Holding on the Ethereal plane is not on the Material plane (nor vice versa). The bag will work on whichever plane it is on, but has no presence on the other plane.

3) No. The Ghost must be manifested in order to use Malevolence.

To use this ability, the ghost must be manifested

[Meierme176]

1) Ghosts can only wear/wield Ghost Touch objects. However the Ghostly Grasp feat from Libris Mortis changes that.

2a) Equipping the corpse will not effect the ghost's ghostly equipment. However you could physically travel to the ethereal plane to hand them the bag.
2b) A Bag of Holding on the Ethereal plane is not on the Material plane (nor vice versa). The bag will work on whichever plane it is on, but has no presence on the other plane.

3) No. The Ghost must be manifested in order to use Malevolence.

oops, I didn't see that part. At least they are quiet.

There is no cheap way to plane shift at all it looks like. Even the massively overpriced amulet of the Planes doesn't work well. My Dm is under the impression that as long as the body is equip the item will appear on the ghost seeing as the reverse works.

[OldTrees1]

oops, I didn't see that part. At least they are quiet.

There is no cheap way to plane shift at all it looks like. Even the massively overpriced amulet of the Planes doesn't work well. My Dm is under the impression that as long as the body is equip the item will appear on the ghost seeing as the reverse works.

Your DM's rulings matter more than my readings. I read the ghostly equipment as their dying gear + 2d4 items of particular sentimental value before death. Those items and only those items can be added/removed from the Ghost by adding/removing them from the corpse. However, however your DM rules is how it works.

[Meierme176]

Your DM's rulings matter more than my readings. I read the ghostly equipment as their dying gear + 2d4 items of particular sentimental value before death. Those items and only those items can be added/removed from the Ghost by adding/removing them from the corpse. However, however your DM rules is how it works.

I did just find that the obsidian steed can plane shift at will. I can only do it for 24 hours once a week but it works and is kind of cheap.

Is there any way to get a natural weapon? I like my touch attack more than my dagger and my sneak attack can really benefit from it.

also are there any other items you would recommend me getting?

[OldTrees1]

I did just find that the obsidian steed can plane shift at will. I can only do it for 24 hours once a week but it works and is kind of cheap.

Is there any way to get a natural weapon? I like my touch attack more than my dagger and my sneak attack can really benefit from it.

also are there any other items you would recommend me getting?

You have a natural weapon. Your Lich Touch is a natural weapon and thus cannot be used as part of a claw/bite/etc attack. The Sneak Attack damage would be even more Negative Energy (because the touch natural weapon has a base of 1d8+5 negative energy).

For items:
You are pretty well set. Just buy a cloak of charisma and anything neat you see your allies buy that is not covered by your immunities.

[Meierme176]

You have a natural weapon. Your Lich Touch is a natural weapon and thus cannot be used as part of a claw/bite/etc attack. The Sneak Attack damage would be even more Negative Energy (because the touch natural weapon has a base of 1d8+5 negative energy).

it says unless I have improved unarmed then I will be dealing nonlethal damage, how would that work with my negative energy?

Wait so my sneak d6's would be d8's or something? what do you mean the sneak attack damage would be even more?

[OldTrees1]

it says unless I have improved unarmed then I will be dealing nonlethal damage, how would that work with my negative energy?

Wait so my sneak d6's would be d8's or something? what do you mean the sneak attack damage would be even more?

What says what about improved unarmed? Your Touch Attack natural attack is not the same as an unarmed strike.

Your Touch Attack natural attack deals 1d8+5 negative energy damage as a base. If you Sneak Attack with your Touch Attack you will do +Xd6 negative energy in addition to the base weapon damage.

[Meierme176]

What says what about improved unarmed? Your Touch Attack natural attack is not the same as an unarmed strike.

Oh I was thinking about trying to get hand wraps, enchant them and **** some **** up with a natural attack. but you are correct about being able to use a touch attack as a sneak attack.

"Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage functions as a weapon in certain respects, whether the spell deals normal hit point damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. Such spells can threaten critical hits, can be used in sneak attacks, and can be used with favored enemy damage bonuses. You can even use a number of combat-enhancing feats from the Player’s Handbook to improve the effectiveness of weaponlike spells..." (Complete arcane 85)

[weckar]

Wait just a second: The sneak attack damage also becomes negative energy damage? I thought sneak attack damage was untyped?

[OldTrees1]

Wait just a second: The sneak attack damage also becomes negative energy damage? I thought sneak attack damage was untyped?

Sneak Attack damage is the same kind of damage as the base damage (with some exceptions).

[elonin]

Wait just a second: The sneak attack damage also becomes negative energy damage? I thought sneak attack damage was untyped?

No. Sneak attack also takes on the qualities that the attack that was used to deliver it according to one of those articles written by skip williams

http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/rg/20040302a

And I did think that demilich came with additional LA, though i might have misunderstood the entry

[OldTrees1]

And I did think that demilich came with additional LA, though i might have misunderstood the entry

It does, you were just incorrect about how much LA. Demilich is +8LA on top of Lich's +4LA.

[Braininthejar2]

Hat of disguise - hiding your nature will make your enemies waste a lot of time on exploiting weaknesses you no longer have. Replace with something more fancy at higher levels (my wizard uses one based on 'alter self', combined with a circlet of persuasion. It's one of my favourite items ever - lots of options for a schemer character)