How to -- 4th century BCE setting

[Tobtor]

I still haven't found anything like a system I care for to run this in, and while I appreciate all the suggestions, I have a looming dread that I may be doing as much system homebrewing as I am setting homebrewing by the end of the project.

Do you prefer to homebrew it, or...?

Which systems have you considered? And what is your requirements from the system? Perhaps taking an existing system and change the things you do not like?

[Max_Killjoy]

Do you prefer to homebrew it, or...?

Which systems have you considered? And what is your requirements from the system? Perhaps taking an existing system and change the things you do not like?

Here's what I have so far:

Spoiler

Show

I started a thread a while back looking for suggestions...

* No levels (or level-like mechanisms, where game says it has no levels, then bases skill limits or whatever around "grade" or "progression rating" or "rank")
* No classes (or class-like mechanisms, game says it has no classes, then gives unique abilities, bonuses, and/or discounts to "careers" or "archetypes" or "schools")
* Conventional characteristics and skills

Characteristics (attributes, whatever) as broad qualities of the character that are at least in part innate
Skills as fairly discreet trained / learned abilities

* Both attributes and skills matter in resolution attempts
* Resolution is purely attempt/task based -- NO "conflict resolution"
* Resolution is relatively quick, without a massive amount of mathematics or debate before or after a roll, and without needing to look up a couple dozen of special "talents" and whanot
* Dice results are "curved" resulting in somewhat more predictable results.
* Light on "feats" (D&D style) or "talents", NO "talent trees" (FFG Star Wars)
* Magic can be set up as subtle, slow, and/or costly
* Magic can be available without overwhelming other ways of doing things.
* Prefer resource-based rather than slot-based magic.
* Combat is smooth, but not highly abstract -- mechanical actions model character actions, not some undefined unit of abstract stuff (see "no conflict resolution" above)
* Active defenses are modeled with character actions, not passive abstractions -- especially shield use, as discussed earlier
* Game scales well -- avoids the issues some games have of the attack/defense/damage/soak relationships radically changing as characters advance.

[Berenger]

I strongly suggest that you take a look at SIFRP (A Song of Ice and Fire Roleplaying: A Game of Thrones Edition).

It has no levels. Experience can be converted to nearly any stat you like. The cap for abilites is the same for starting characters and experienced characters (excluding certain limits imposed by young and old starting age categories).

There are no classes. There are "roles" like Fighter, Leader or Rogue with suggested skill sets etc., but these are not connected to special tricks, bonuses or discounts (there are none of those). Their only purpose is to give players a shorthand to communicate the general concept of the character to the GM and other players and to give newbies an idea which skills might complement each other. You can literally ignore them.

Characteristics and skills: SIFRP has Abilities and Specialities tied to each Ability. Some Abilities compare to D&D Attributes (Agility, Athletics, Endurance, Persuasion...), some to other concepts (there is no "base attack bonus" that raises on its own, you have a Fighting Ability and a Marksmanship Ability instead). Specialities are narrower subsets of Abilities. For example: Agility has Acrobatics, Balance, Contortions, Dodge, Quickness (= Initiative), Fighting has Long Blades, Short Blades, Spears, Axes an so on, Knowledge has Education, Research, Streetwise. Your dice pool of six-sided dice for an action is Ability Ranks + Speciality Ranks and you count a number of those dice results equal to your Ability rank. Unless you min-max quite brutally, there will at least two and rarely more than 8 dice involved in a roll. "Predictable curved distributions" are pretty much a given. There is also an Ability called Status that describes just that - your status in the society, e.g. Status 0 = Slave, Status 10 = King. If you don't like it, you can ignore that stat without ill effect. Likewise, you can add a few Abilities when it suits your campaign (I added "Seafaring" and "Crafting" with various Specialities for a viking setting).

"Resolution is purely attempt/task based -- NO "conflict resolution"" I'm not completely sure what is meant by this, but usually rolls are made against a target number set by the GM. If you make that number, you succeed. If it matters, the GM can make the check more granular - in that case, if you beat the target number by much, you succeed better. If you fail the roll very bad, you fail harder, so the results are not entirely binary pass/faill. If the target number for an Athletics (Climb) check is 12 and you have a 7, you may fall down. If you have a 11, you don't advance. If you have a 13, you climb up at a normal pace. If you have a 17, you may advance at a faster pace. That's about it.

"Feats / Talents": You have Destiny Points that can be spent to enhance your chances on important checks and to survive the quite lethal combat system. You can also spend a Destiny Point to gain a Qualitiy. Qualities are a bit like Feats and range from "I get extra money each month", "I am very large" and "I am better at certain skills" to "I hit better with a sword". Some of them have prerequisites (e.g. "Long Blade Fighter III needs Long Blade Fighter I & II" or "needs Awareness Rank 4"). Since there are no "tax" Qualities like Weapon or Armor Profiencies and you get very few Destiny Points, most of our characters have about three of them (tops five when you earn a Destiny Point or two by picking a Flaw, but Flaws are pretty serious stuff so most players don't want a boatload of them).

There is no magic system in the rules whatsoever and enemies / plots / the way healing and wounds work etc. are not written with players having access to magic in mind. The only supernatural Qualities a character can get are Greenseer (vague prophecy) and Warg (slippin your mind into the body of a companion animal). There is, however, a supplement called "Chronicle of Sorcery", which gives you detailed instructions to craft your very own low-fantasy magic traditions from scratch. Maybe it can be useful to you even if you don't like the rules engine of SIFRP.

Combat is not abstract and can be quite quick & easy to quite granular, depending how many of the optional / advanced rules you are willing remember and employ. There are Weapons Traits (e.g. "Impale" - if you do enough damage with that weapon, you impale the opponent - he can't move, but you may be disarmed and can't use the weapon to attack another foe until you rip it free, in which case you deal even more damage) and about a dozen Advanced Actions for Combat (e.g. Charge, Disarm, Distract, Knockdown, Cautious Attack...). These don't need to be "unlocked", anyone can try to use them at no special penalty. There is no "Power Attack" - instead you deal significantly more damage when your attack exceeds the enemies defense by a great margin. Im not sure if there is an actual active parry / shield defense, but shields are pretty valuable anyways. They actually make you harder to hit, which is great (armor makes you a bit easier to hit and slower, but incoming damage is reduced).

[Max_Killjoy]

I strongly suggest that you take a look at SIFRP (A Song of Ice and Fire Roleplaying: A Game of Thrones Edition).

Spoiler

Show

It has no levels. Experience can be converted to nearly any stat you like. The cap for abilites is the same for starting characters and experienced characters (excluding certain limits imposed by young and old starting age categories).

There are no classes. There are "roles" like Fighter, Leader or Rogue with suggested skill sets etc., but these are not connected to special tricks, bonuses or discounts (there are none of those). Their only purpose is to give players a shorthand to communicate the general concept of the character to the GM and other players and to give newbies an idea which skills might complement each other. You can literally ignore them.

Characteristics and skills: SIFRP has Abilities and Specialities tied to each Ability. Some Abilities compare to D&D Attributes (Agility, Athletics, Endurance, Persuasion...), some to other concepts (there is no "base attack bonus" that raises on its own, you have a Fighting Ability and a Marksmanship Ability instead). Specialities are narrower subsets of Abilities. For example: Agility has Acrobatics, Balance, Contortions, Dodge, Quickness (= Initiative), Fighting has Long Blades, Short Blades, Spears, Axes an so on, Knowledge has Education, Research, Streetwise. Your dice pool of six-sided dice for an action is Ability Ranks + Speciality Ranks and you count a number of those dice results equal to your Ability rank. Unless you min-max quite brutally, there will at least two and rarely more than 8 dice involved in a roll. "Predictable curved distributions" are pretty much a given. There is also an Ability called Status that describes just that - your status in the society, e.g. Status 0 = Slave, Status 10 = King. If you don't like it, you can ignore that stat without ill effect. Likewise, you can add a few Abilities when it suits your campaign (I added "Seafaring" and "Crafting" with various Specialities for a viking setting).

"Resolution is purely attempt/task based -- NO "conflict resolution"" I'm not completely sure what is meant by this, but usually rolls are made against a target number set by the GM. If you make that number, you succeed. If it matters, the GM can make the check more granular - in that case, if you beat the target number by much, you succeed better. If you fail the roll very bad, you fail harder, so the results are not entirely binary pass/faill. If the target number for an Athletics (Climb) check is 12 and you have a 7, you may fall down. If you have a 11, you don't advance. If you have a 13, you climb up at a normal pace. If you have a 17, you may advance at a faster pace. That's about it.

"Feats / Talents": You have Destiny Points that can be spent to enhance your chances on important checks and to survive the quite lethal combat system. You can also spend a Destiny Point to gain a Qualitiy. Qualities are a bit like Feats and range from "I get extra money each month", "I am very large" and "I am better at certain skills" to "I hit better with a sword". Some of them have prerequisites (e.g. "Long Blade Fighter III needs Long Blade Fighter I & II" or "needs Awareness Rank 4"). Since there are no "tax" Qualities like Weapon or Armor Profiencies and you get very few Destiny Points, most of our characters have about three of them (tops five when you earn a Destiny Point or two by picking a Flaw, but Flaws are pretty serious stuff so most players don't want a boatload of them).

There is no magic system in the rules whatsoever and enemies / plots / the way healing and wounds work etc. are not written with players having access to magic in mind. The only supernatural Qualities a character can get are Greenseer (vague prophecy) and Warg (slippin your mind into the body of a companion animal). There is, however, a supplement called "Chronicle of Sorcery", which gives you detailed instructions to craft your very own low-fantasy magic traditions from scratch. Maybe it can be useful to you even if you don't like the rules engine of SIFRP.

Combat is not abstract and can be quite quick & easy to quite granular, depending how many of the optional / advanced rules you are willing remember and employ. There are Weapons Traits (e.g. "Impale" - if you do enough damage with that weapon, you impale the opponent - he can't move, but you may be disarmed and can't use the weapon to attack another foe until you rip it free, in which case you deal even more damage) and about a dozen Advanced Actions for Combat (e.g. Charge, Disarm, Distract, Knockdown, Cautious Attack...). These don't need to be "unlocked", anyone can try to use them at no special penalty. There is no "Power Attack" - instead you deal significantly more damage when your attack exceeds the enemies defense by a great margin. Im not sure if there is an actual active parry / shield defense, but shields are pretty valuable anyways. They actually make you harder to hit, which is great (armor makes you a bit easier to hit and slower, but incoming damage is reduced)

.

I'll take a look -- thank you.

[Tobtor]

Have you considered GURPS? It looks like it have many of the things you want, and can relatively easily be homebrewed.

No levels (or level-like mechanisms, where game says it has no levels, then bases skill limits or whatever around "grade" or "progression rating" or "rank")

GURPS have "points" which can be distributed, but there is no "ranks" or similar. So fighting doesnt make you better at all sorts of stuff. Points earned after start can (or at least should) only be spend on stuff with a reason (training etc).

No classes (or class-like mechanisms, game says it has no classes, then gives unique abilities, bonuses, and/or discounts to "careers" or "archetypes" or "schools")

GURPS have no classes.

Conventional characteristics and skills

Characteristics (attributes, whatever) as broad qualities of the character that are at least in part innate
Skills as fairly discreet trained / learned abilities

GURPS have attributes and skills (many, many skills)

Both attributes and skills matter in resolution attempts

In most cases (depends on what is attempted): skills are based on an atributed, but ´needs to be learned after that.

Resolution is purely attempt/task based -- NO "conflict resolution"

GURPS are MOSTLY like this, at least during combat: you hit to swing and a succesfull hit means your opponent need to make a successful defence (parry, block, dodge). There are some manuvres etc (such as a feint), which will give your opponent a negative modifier for his next defence though. I think there is a few skill contests (but it is really rare in my experience).

Resolution is relatively quick, without a massive amount of mathematics or debate before or after a roll, and without needing to look up a couple dozen of special "talents" and whanot

This might be the hardest to overcome. Well GURPS have some of this at first, but with a good quick go through table/rutines, most combats I tried resolves much faster than DnD-fights. But GURPS is rules heavy (as it has all sorts of stuff you can do, hit locations, etc, these can be removed though, see GURPS lite or similar).

Dice results are "curved" resulting in somewhat more predictable results.

GURPS is built around a bell curve.

Light on "feats" (D&D style) or "talents", NO "talent trees" (FFG Star Wars)

GURPS do have "advanatges" (and disadvanteges), but there is generally no "trees" or prerequisites. They are mostly decided during character creation. A few comes in grades (most not), but never trees.

Magic can be set up as subtle, slow, and/or costly

GURPS is definitely able to handle that. Each "spell" is a skill that needs to be learned (here there is somewhat of a tree-sturcture, as some spells needs to be learned before others, such as "create fire", before "fireball", as it is logical that you need to be able to create fire before fireballs), but as altering the fabric of reality is difficult, it tires you (you loose fatigue) similar to if you enter combat, do acrobatics etc.

The system makes it VERY easy to limit magic in various ways. If done right (easy) most powerfull spells must be done as rituals including several persons (you can of course also hand out power to magic users if you so wish - but that is a GM choice).

Magic can be available without overwhelming other ways of doing things.

Definitely possible in GURPS. Its harder to make magic as powerfull as in DnD.

Prefer resource-based rather than slot-based magic.

GURPS doesnt require slots at all, only fatigue.

Combat is smooth, but not highly abstract -- mechanical actions model character actions, not some undefined unit of abstract stuff (see "no conflict resolution" above)

Some find GURPS the opposite of "smooth", and granted it is slightly more difficult to start with than DnD. However when I played (years ago), I found it intuitive and fast. Some of the possibilities (such as striking for specific body parts at a penalty, feigning attacks etc) does mean there are more to tactics/strategy to learn though: It's not I hit the Orc, I miss the Orc, I hit the Orc etc, instead you need to consider stuff like hitting the leg to immobilise the opponent etc.

Active defenses are modeled with character actions, not passive abstractions -- especially shield use, as discussed earlier

This is true in GURPS.

Game scales well -- avoids the issues some games have of the attack/defense/damage/soak relationships radically changing as characters advance.

Definitely true of GURPS.


---


I like GURPS for realistic to semi-realisitc (such as gritty fantasy, low fantasy, historical, etc) games. Its built around realism (except, you know magic can be used). Its very modular, so it is easy only to use what you think appropriate.

For me one of the biggest up-sides is that weapons can be used in multiple ways (such as a sword used for trusting in one round, and swung the next), which each have a strategic use (sometimes it is better to do thrust other times to swing).

[Max_Killjoy]

Have you considered GURPS? It looks like it have many of the things you want, and can relatively easily be homebrewed.

Spoiler

Show

GURPS have "points" which can be distributed, but there is no "ranks" or similar. So fighting doesnt make you better at all sorts of stuff. Points earned after start can (or at least should) only be spend on stuff with a reason (training etc).



GURPS have no classes.



GURPS have attributes and skills (many, many skills)



In most cases (depends on what is attempted): skills are based on an atributed, but ´needs to be learned after that.


GURPS are MOSTLY like this, at least during combat: you hit to swing and a succesfull hit means your opponent need to make a successful defence (parry, block, dodge). There are some manuvres etc (such as a feint), which will give your opponent a negative modifier for his next defence though. I think there is a few skill contests (but it is really rare in my experience).



This might be the hardest to overcome. Well GURPS have some of this at first, but with a good quick go through table/rutines, most combats I tried resolves much faster than DnD-fights. But GURPS is rules heavy (as it has all sorts of stuff you can do, hit locations, etc, these can be removed though, see GURPS lite or similar).



GURPS is built around a bell curve.



GURPS do have "advanatges" (and disadvanteges), but there is generally no "trees" or prerequisites. They are mostly decided during character creation. A few comes in grades (most not), but never trees.


GURPS is definitely able to handle that. Each "spell" is a skill that needs to be learned (here there is somewhat of a tree-sturcture, as some spells needs to be learned before others, such as "create fire", before "fireball", as it is logical that you need to be able to create fire before fireballs), but as altering the fabric of reality is difficult, it tires you (you loose fatigue) similar to if you enter combat, do acrobatics etc.

The system makes it VERY easy to limit magic in various ways. If done right (easy) most powerfull spells must be done as rituals including several persons (you can of course also hand out power to magic users if you so wish - but that is a GM choice).



Definitely possible in GURPS. Its harder to make magic as powerfull as in DnD.

GURPS doesnt require slots at all, only fatigue.



Some find GURPS the opposite of "smooth", and granted it is slightly more difficult to start with than DnD. However when I played (years ago), I found it intuitive and fast. Some of the possibilities (such as striking for specific body parts at a penalty, feigning attacks etc) does mean there are more to tactics/strategy to learn though: It's not I hit the Orc, I miss the Orc, I hit the Orc etc, instead you need to consider stuff like hitting the leg to immobilise the opponent etc.



This is true in GURPS.



Definitely true of GURPS.


---


I like GURPS for realistic to semi-realisitc (such as gritty fantasy, low fantasy, historical, etc) games. Its built around realism (except, you know magic can be used). Its very modular, so it is easy only to use what you think appropriate.

For me one of the biggest up-sides is that weapons can be used in multiple ways (such as a sword used for trusting in one round, and swung the next), which each have a strategic use (sometimes it is better to do thrust other times to swing).

It's been years since I looked at GURPS. I'll have to add a basic GURPS book to the other things I have on order for reference (such as the GURPS "Greece" book.)

I really like a lot of things about HERO (4th and 5th), but because of the scale going up into the ultra-superheroic, the scale for non-superheroic characters is often VERY compressed (the entire human attribute scale from average of 10 to max of 20 is a difference of all of 2 on the target number against a 3d6 hit roll or skill roll, IIRC.)

[Tobtor]

It's been years since I looked at GURPS. I'll have to add a basic GURPS book to the other things I have on order for reference (such as the GURPS "Greece" book.)

I really like a lot of things about HERO (4th and 5th), but because of the scale going up into the ultra-superheroic, the scale for non-superheroic characters is often VERY compressed (the entire human attribute scale from average of 10 to max of 20 is a difference of all of 2 on the target number against a 3d6 hit roll or skill roll, IIRC.)

I dont know Hero all that well, but I find they are slightly similar (at least in some respects, such as the bell curve and the favouring of the d6, the point buy etc), though the scaling is definitely better in GURPS.

I think the main difference is that Hero is designed to model "supers" (at least to begin with), while GURPS is designed to model "mundanes". Both systems to some degree have tried to model the other side as well, but I think their 'core area' is still affecting the overall system. GURPS is meant to be generic, and works well for many settings, but while it does have "cinematic" and "super" additions it doesn't reflect the really 'power-game' experience all that well.

[Beleriphon]

It's been years since I looked at GURPS. I'll have to add a basic GURPS book to the other things I have on order for reference (such as the GURPS "Greece" book.)

I really like a lot of things about HERO (4th and 5th), but because of the scale going up into the ultra-superheroic, the scale for non-superheroic characters is often VERY compressed (the entire human attribute scale from average of 10 to max of 20 is a difference of all of 2 on the target number against a 3d6 hit roll or skill roll, IIRC.)

You might want look at Mutants and Masterminds. It handles highly skilled character of mundane means pretty well (think James Bond). It would be a PL6 or 7 game, and all that really does limit the combat ability of all characters to roughly the same range. It has the distinct benefit of being effects based so if you want to have a character with weird mystical powers alongside Swordy McSword dude you're golden since both work largely the same way.

[Max_Killjoy]

Relevant to period combat.

[Kiero]

Lindybeige is of variable utility. I think he's completely wrong on the underhand/overhand spear dichotomy.

[Lacuna Caster]

I've seen that Lindy video a while back, and I think it's probably a valid point. (That said, I don't see it being easy to grab a knife from your belt or an opponent's gear if both your hands are already full. Dropping either your spear or your shield doesn't seem like an optimal move.)

More broadly, would it be reasonable to suggest that skills useful in tight formation combat may be of limited use in loose melee, and vice versa?

[Max_Killjoy]

I've seen that Lindy video a while back, and I think it's probably a valid point. (That said, I don't see it being easy to grab a knife from your belt or an opponent's gear if both your hands are already full. Dropping either your spear or your shield doesn't seem like an optimal move.)

More broadly, would it be reasonable to suggest that skills useful in tight formation combat may be of limited use in loose melee, and vice versa?

I think it would be very reasonable.

I think a lot of the "conflicting facts" of melee combat, a lot of the arguments, the debates over which weapons were primary vs sidearms, etc, come from unspoken assumptions about what sort of combat is being discussed. "The polearm" may have been the primary weapon in war for much of human history, but there's a point at which a polearm becomes too long and too specialized towards mass formation combat, and you're better off with a sword or axe or mace or something in a loose melee or spontaneous fight. A person-height pole with an 8-12 inch stabbing/slashing end and a blunt counterweighted end makes for a good single melee weapon in many instances... a pike or sarissa really doesn't, and I'm reading conflicting claims about how effective a dory might be in 1-v-1 combat.

[Max_Killjoy]

"Resolution is purely attempt/task based -- NO "conflict resolution"" I'm not completely sure what is meant by this, but usually rolls are made against a target number set by the GM. If you make that number, you succeed. If it matters, the GM can make the check more granular - in that case, if you beat the target number by much, you succeed better. If you fail the roll very bad, you fail harder, so the results are not entirely binary pass/faill. If the target number for an Athletics (Climb) check is 12 and you have a 7, you may fall down. If you have a 11, you don't advance. If you have a 13, you climb up at a normal pace. If you have a 17, you may advance at a faster pace. That's about it.

Task vs Conflict resolution:
http://www.lumpley.com/hardcore.html#4
http://gamingphilosopher.blogspot.co...esolution.html
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread...ict-Resolution

Personally, in my opinion... "conflict resolution" is metagamey, disassociated... stuff.

[Lacuna Caster]

It is indeed, by usual definitions, a form of metagame. I would use 'garbage' quite carefully, though.

[Max_Killjoy]

It is indeed, by usual definitions, a form of metagame. I would use 'garbage' quite carefully, though.

That's why I was very careful to make it clear that it's my personal opinion -- just a very strong and unlikely to change opinion, based on a lot of experience.

[Lacuna Caster]

Max... anything you say is automatically 'your opinion'. If you're going to say 'it's garbage', that's likely to annoy people however you qualify.

Anyways- as for why it might not necessarily be so dumpster-worthy: The point that was raised in the first thread you mentioned is that it effectively screens out another, different form of 'metagame'- the tendency of the GM, consciously or otherwise, to invent new tasks so as to hinder undesired plot departures. (Plot, after all, is not something with a physical presence in the world.)

I realise this kinda came up by PM, so I'll try to get back to this in more detail later.

[Max_Killjoy]

Something that 2D8HP posted on another thread, a quote from Lords and Ladies, that isn't so far off a couple of the Anzillu.

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But this other roving intelligence... it’d go in and out of another mind like a chainsaw, taking, taking, taking. She could sense the shape of it, the predatory shape, all cruelty and cool unkindness; a mind full of intelligence, that’d use other living things and hurt them because it was fun.
She could put a name to a mind like that.
Elf
----
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvelous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meanings.

No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.

Feeling much better after being sick the last couple weeks.

Hoping to begin working on the "present day" cities, states, and cultures this weekend.

[Lacuna Caster]

Feeling much better after being sick the last couple weeks.

Hoping to begin working on the "present day" cities, states, and cultures this weekend.

Cool. Since you mentioned Sorrow a while back, maybe comfortably numb would fit for Evetazzi?

[Lacuna Caster]

While we wait, casting back a couple of posts:

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The world is spherical, with day/night cycles and seasons. The "solar system" is of the same nature as ours, with a physical sun that existed before "the sun goddess" of the Kataru, and planets, and moons, and asteroids, and comets, and so on. There are objects visible in the night sky that don't follow apparent simple paths when viewed from Esharra. Comets and other events can occur "randomly". It's not, at that level at least, a clockwork universe... no crystal spheres or anything.

The stars are far away, but I'm not sure if I'm ever going to spell out what they are, and instead might give competing philosophical or religious claims. Although here's a random and heavy thought... what if there were other planets out there, with other sorts of intelligent beings, all interacting with the Anzillu as their deities (perhaps wearing different masks there), and the actions of this one little group of people on one little world out of so many... silenced the gods for potentially billions, who would never know why it happened.

Heh. The more interesting question might be, why didn't they get there first? :P (As the number of stars with exoplanets increases, this gets more and more likely. Sorta like an inverse Fermi Paradox...) Then again... what if some non-Asharran civilisation did seal off the Anzillu, and the Kataru just stepped into the power-vacuum afterward?

Of course, there's nothing to stop you having more than one inhabited world in your solar system... (Good luck making the trip though.)

[Max_Killjoy]

Sorry for neglecting this for a while, have had a lot of stressful, frustrating things going on the last few weeks.

[Max_Killjoy]

So doing more research on the actual practices and observances of religions in the time and places I'm using as inspiration, it seems that with the various family, clan, city, guild/profession, nature, ancestor, and location spirits and "minor gods", I've unwitting arrived at where the Greeks and Romans actually were, rather than the way they're often presented to us.

For example, the Lares, guardian spirits/gods of individuals families, neighborhoods, and towns, who are rarely mentioned in the standard presentation of Roman religion, but which evidently played a major role in the actual practice.

[Lacuna Caster]

So doing more research on the actual practices and observances of religions in the time and places I'm using as inspiration, it seems that with the various family, clan, city, guild/profession, nature, ancestor, and location spirits and "minor gods", I've unwitting arrived at where the Greeks and Romans actually were, rather than the way they're often presented to us.

For example, the Lares, guardian spirits/gods of individuals families, neighborhoods, and towns, who are rarely mentioned in the standard presentation of Roman religion, but which evidently played a major role in the actual practice.

Int'restin. Are you planning to map those to animism or ancestor worship? (I'm guessing there'd be a decent parallel to the panoply of catholic saints and feast days, but even more fine-grained.)

[Max_Killjoy]

Int'restin. Are you planning to map those to animism or ancestor worship? (I'm guessing there'd be a decent parallel to the panoply of catholic saints and feast days, but even more fine-grained.)

Animism and ancestor worship was the plan, even before I found these details about the Greeks and others.

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One the delayed subject of countries and cities, what would those reading consider the most important things to know about a place when it's presented in short form? I plan for significant detail eventually, but for now I need to get the rough drafts down and start moving the pieces until I'm happy with how they're arranged.

[Lacuna Caster]

On the delayed subject of countries and cities, what would those reading consider the most important things to know about a place when it's presented in short form? I plan for significant detail eventually, but for now I need to get the rough drafts down and start moving the pieces until I'm happy with how they're arranged.

...Missed this bit. I suppose population, geographic situation, imports/exports, plus government and religious policy (to the extent they vary from the 'default')?

Where are you getting this information on greco-roman religious practices, out of curiosity?

[Max_Killjoy]

...Missed this bit. I suppose population, geographic situation, imports/exports, plus government and religious policy (to the extent they vary from the 'default')?

Where are you getting this information on greco-roman religious practices, out of curiosity?

Eclectic stuff. Picked up a couple books, trawling Wiki, etc.


Work has been nuts for the last couple weeks, which eats up a lot of my mental energy. And to top it off, the group I was hoping to run this for, well, one got promoted to the head of her department, one moved away suddenly for a job, one just won't commit to a regular schedule for anything... etc... so for right now, anything I do on this is purely for my own enjoyment.

[Max_Killjoy]

One of the aspects of ancient Greek (and other) cultures I want to make sure to include:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenia_(Greek)

[Vinyadan]

You probably should read Menander's surviving works, the Dyskolos in particular. He lived during this time and he had an interest for everyday situations.

The Aeneid contains scenes of cultual and everyday practices (like Aeneas saving the Lares together with his father, I think). However, Rome in the IV century isn't that well attested - known Latin literature starts around 270 BC with a Latin translation of the Odyssey by Livius Andronicus.

There are a few inscriptions from previous times, the most important (or interesting) ones I can think of were the ones of the Lapis ***** and the one about the Suodales Mamartei.

About rituals that probably existed in the IV century, there are the Carmen Saliare and the Carmen Arvale.

Some material:

The Dyskolos in English: https://files.fairfield.edu/users/Ro...a/dyskolos.htm

Aeneas and the Lares: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...les_110338.jpg Aeneas escapes Troy with his son and his father. The box carried by his father contains lares and penates.

Lapis ***** and transcriptions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapis_*****

"Suodales": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapis_Satricanus

Carmen Saliare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmen_Saliare

Carmen Arvale: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmen_Arvale

Notice that in such ancient texts the lares are called lases because the transformation of -s- between vowels into -r- had not yet happened. This means that e.g. Aurora was still called Ausosa.

For this time the main Roman source I think is Titus Livius, who loved narrating and lived a few centuries later. A contemporary source is Xenophon. If you are interested, there is much material about law and judiciary procedure in Athens, and abundance of texts from this time (Lysias, Isocrates, Demosthenes are the best known orators. More here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attic_orators).

In general this is an enormous field, I think you'll have a lot of fun looking for the smaller details.

[Vinyadan]

I have to say that this censorship filter is as stupid as it gets. Is it now hate speech to name a friggin African country called *****? Or the river from which it takes its name?

It also ruined the link. Anyway, it's the subject of this page. http://www.vroma.org/~forum/lapn.html If you look for it in Wikipedia, there is the text and translation of the writing and some talk about ritual value.

[Max_Killjoy]

So, going to be working on this again, I've got rough sketchy notes on several of the states" that I'm going to be fleshing out as I can.

Can't promise a high volume of stuff, but posting it keeps me working on it, and frankly I need to work on something right now, instead of just going around in circles in my own head.

To get myself back into it, I've been editing these guys (the Anzillu) to clean up the presentation and add more detail.

Spoiler: Zarruzassa

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Zarruzassa, the Vermilion King

Seen as the deity of rulership, authority, government, and splendor, Zarruzassa founded the red stone city of Dara, where he ruled in "person" from the opulent Scarlet Court and Red Temple. All aspects of government, worship, and daily life were highly ritualized, complex, ornate, and exacting. Law, as decreed by Zarruzassa and his Lakur*, was strict and punishments harsh, with no exceptions and no mercy. The city was a constant tug of war between the maddening obsessive aura that seeped from his presence, and the dictates of propriety, order, and ritual; those who couldn't withstand the dissonance seemed fine and proper... and then suddenly snapped, often violently.

* Royal officers who were at once consorts, priestesses/priests, and high judges.


Behind the Mask... Zarruzassa was fascinated with structure and order as aspects of the new reality; after ruining several ancient city-states through war, intrigue, and religious strife to "see how they worked", he founded his city of Dara. His driving desire was to control and organize all things.

The presence of the less-ordered cults of the other Anzillu in his city was always a source of contention; indeed his city was one of the last places the "hero cult" of the Kataru gained a foothold.


In the Court of the Crimson King.

Spoiler: Ravishu

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Ravishu, the Fallen Star

He who fell from the void, lord of the lost throne, the star-exile... Ravishu was the wanderer, the opener of ways and break of preconceptions... and prince of debauchery. Ravishu was that "friend" with the knowing smile, who cheerfully drags you -- or an entire city -- out for a night everyone knows they'll regret tomorrow. Intoxicants and carnal acts of all variety, experienced through his followers and anyone else caught up in the bacchanal, often past the breaking point, were said to be veneration and offering, communion with Ravishu as he sought to "open the doors of the flesh and of the mind".

Behind the Mask... Ravishu once wandered the infinite byways of the universe, seeking the keys to time and space, to unlock the old secrets and to turn back reality to before it all fell apart and he lost his beloved sibling. Over the eons, he lost hope, and was overtaken with ennui. To escape the despair and fruitlessness of his efforts, he turned to raw sensation. In truth, he was still trying in vain to recover the sort of total unfettered contact that was possible only with the others of his kind in the "untime". Where once he sought to be everywhere and everywhen, he instead sought simply to... "feel" everything.

Spoiler: Really, any of these could be his song.

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The lyrical / on-stage persona of Mr Wyndorf would be his avatar or high priest.
(Some NSFW in these.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dscfeQOMuGw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5lMad5NEB0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDJ3y_3yzGs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTy45RVWYOY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_jlsyWSRg *
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RCwgz4FiSA *

Spoiler: Evettazi

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Evettazi, the Waking Dreamer

Deity of dreams and transcendence, patron of theurgy, the great teacher. Those initiated into her White Order learned the ways of molding reality through "waking dream", bringing the power of the mind to shape the world from the realm of lucid dreams into the physical world. The price of this magic was the risk that one would prove too weak-minded and utterly lose oneself to The Dream, unable to tell the real from imagined. Initiates with the will and strength to maintain their sanity went on to become the greatest wonder-workers of the age.

Behind the mask... Evettazi never gave up hope of unmaking reality, returning the universe to the dreamlike primal state of the "untime", and restoring the Anzillu's lost sibling. She sought know everything, and to make all things once more into a reflection of her thoughts, unfettered and effortless. To this end, she was building an ever-growing network of theurges whose minds and souls were secretly connected to her own, using their efforts to expand her own understanding, ever searching, ever learning. Despite the rather benign front presented to mortals, she was perhaps the most dangerous and deceptive of the Anzillu. Most of the initiates who "went insane" had actually had an epiphany or revelation... and when Evettazi pulled that spark of knowledge to her, their insufficient strength resulted in her tearing it out instead of duplicating it. Belle Dame Sans Merci.

When Evettazi fell, her last desperate attempt to escape ripped at the minds of her White Order, clawing for a way out. Most were left empty husks, some were lucky enough to just lose their secrets of power and understanding of the White Way... and a scant few were able to retain their mastery. Despite being outlawed wherever the Kataru hold sway, a hidden tradition of the White Order exists to this day, passing on their mysteries to a select worthy and capable few... and their dreams are still occasionally haunted by a figure of white light...

Spoiler: Narzalak

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Narzalak, Haunter of the Outer Depths

Deity of borders, crossroads, reflections, transitions, contradictions, and places between. Lord of the Dawn and Lady of Twilight. Horizon-god, found where the stars are mirrored on the ocean and where distant clouds look like mountains. Ever changing, of many forms and none. Utterly alien, and yet utterly familiar via the constant of change. Invoked at birth, coming of age, marriage, divorce, death, coronation, and moments of great change. Narzalak was supplicated both by those seeking to uphold borders, and by those seeking to transgress them. Warding symbols, border stele, road makers, all bore its runes.

Behind the mask... Wanted to be everything at once, and subsume the infinity of all changes into the essence of oneness. Change always comes with a price -- something left behind, something lost, something transformed irrevocably. By taking that price as its offerings, Narzalak hoped to fully understand the transformation of reality.

The superstitious still make a sign against Narzalak when they see something in the mirror or out of the corner of their eye, that turns out to be "nothing"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vJHev9HOtk

Spoiler: Nekel

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Nekel of the Countless Eyes

The deity of knowledge and artifice, divination and causality, mathematics and geometry. It whispered the secrets of sight and mind and numbers and shaping stones to early mortals, gifting them with sight beyond sight and the knowing of faraway things. As mortals rose in thoughts and power, Neke's artificer-priests in turn gifted the greats sages and kings of the world with the Farstones, flawless spheres of dark crystal, objects of great aide in scrying, and that allowed the sending of speech between those who held them. It tempted and goaded mortals to always seek more, learn more, see more, no matter the consequence.

Behind the mask... Nekel's mask was not the guise of mortal form, but rather that of its eyes. Every stone shaped for seeing, every gem of knowledge, was another eye of Nekel, a facet of its strange and malevolent curiousity. It sought to see and hear all things, to extend its senses across all the world. Every king and sage and spy who used a shaped stone to steal the secrets of others, to see the forbidden and the bizarre, was in turn sharing his secrets with Nekel.

The Farstones still exist in the far corners of the earth, and those who dare to use them are still brushing close to the mind of a fallen god who lies eternal dreaming.

Spoiler: Avsu

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Avsu, the Creeping Doom

The lord of crawling things, and plagues, and unchecked consumption, the devourer-god who was largely placated rather than supplicated, begging him to turn his appetites elsewhere, offering sacrifices to sate his hungers. Insects, parasites, vermin, decay, disease... and fungus-riddled walking dead... those were its signs and messengers. A world of unchecked growth and consumption, roiling with perverse fecundity and rape and slaughter, endlessly devouring itself, was its only promise. Avsu was openly and unhesitatingly the most antagonistic of the Anzillu; even its siblings sought to restrain its appetites.

Behind the mask... There is no mask. Avsu seeks to devour and birth all things in an endless cycle, making itself into the entirety of existence. It most openly and honestly hated the new reality that took the place of the old.

Some say it still whispers from afar, just beyond hearing, just beyond knowing, in fever dreams and the chittering of the swarm.

Spoiler: Kalesh Sarrat Irkalli

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Kalesh Sarrat Irkalli, Margrave of Ashes

Old Goddess of the Demon Marches... Dalkhu Queen... Ashen Lady... taker of souls, ruler of the underworld, and master of the black blood... Kalesh Sarrat Irkalli was seen as the overseer of dark pacts and bitter omens, a patron of warlocks and ill sorcery. If Evettazi was the White Queen, then Kalesh was the Black. The "black blood" is the leftover substance of creation, the rejected primal material, inimical to light and life. The Dalkhu were born of this, and inhabit a twilight realm of drifting ashes, leaden skies, distant lightning, and dark troubled waters. and Kalesh was the undisputed master of this vile essence, above all other Anzillu. Intricate and cryptic, her seals and sigils were used in kind by those who summoned Dalkhu, and by those who exorcised them.

Behind the mask... Kalesh remembered, and she knew -- unlike her fellow Anzillu. She did not share their penchant for monomania and obsession, born of some missing mote of memory about what they had lost. There was no going back, and all their longings and schemes would ever amount to nothing. Their lost sibling, the Fire Witch, the Mad Maker, shared her secrets with only Kalesh, and Kalesh was present to see the act of "mad science" that shattered their old reality and gave birth to the new. The seals and sigils and secret words used to keep the Dalkhu in check are her cryptic elegy for that lost sibling, meant to protect what was left behind. Kalesh imposed the laws that govern the Dalkhu, and decreed that any soul taken by the Dalkhu must be given willingly by its rightful possessor. It would likely be a mistake to attribute this to mercy, or love, or kindness, towards mortals -- it is not in their name she did this.

The Dalkhu are yet still bound by her laws, still must abide by her seals and sigils and secret words... for now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEQNAZGoZrw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5NB2RdXdEE

For any of the Anzillu lacking songs, I'd be happy to take suggestions.

[Lacuna Caster]

The Anzillu all look fine, but I'm still itchin' for detail on the city-states, and maybe a general map of the setting. (There are websites that do automated fantasy-atlas-generation these days, as I understand it?)