Lord of the Sevenfold Shadows(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)

[OldTrees1]

Oh, how wrong you are.

As just one of many examples - swarms unambiguously attack, and also unambiguously never roll attack rolls.

Good support for a counter argument. Whether it is sufficient for a disproof with regards to Tower Shield is not something I am touching. However it does change my intuition.


I notice that a swarm's "attack" is listed in the "Attack:" line of the stat block. This is the same line that weapon and natural attacks land in but weapon-like spells do not. What about this proposed definition of attack "things that would be listed in the 'Attack:' line of a stat block"?

Surely many attack rolls should be simplified to one attack roll, rather than none?

Uhh, no? Simplifying it to one roll would be a terrible modelling of the aggregate. Average result (no attack roll, just damage) is a more accurate and precise model.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Surely many attack rolls should be simplified to one attack roll, rather than none?

Maybe the swarm's members' attacks can only ever hit on a 20, so you're effectively rolling to see how many creatures get lucky? Not that it's super important either way, but that's what I would think.

Spoiler: Reitirating in case someone missed it on the previous page

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Can we jump straight to the 'formal tournament' stage of the discussion, instead of waiting fifty pages ? It'd be interested to see what various builds can do. As per ragevillain's own contest rules, infinite loops and epic levels are banned, and Dragon Magazine, but everything else is in, including optional mechanics like taint (that's going to be hugely problematic, but hey, it means you can use bloodline cheese with impunity).

[ComaVision]

Surely many attack rolls should be simplified to one attack roll, rather than none?

Due to the number of attacks, it's essentially impossible that none would hit. Assuming any individual bite (or whatever) would only be worth fractions of a point of damage, rolling 2 damage would be X bites were a natty 20.

EDIT: Leave it to me to be the last person to answer a question directed at me lol

[Madara]

It doesn't. They don't. All the TO builds are just as ridiculous and poor rules-definition dependent as LordDrako's ultimate abbed sorcerer. The Lord of Shadows is no more ridiculous than HIVE or Tippy or any of the others. Although, he excels in using AS MANY DIFFERENT ridiculous rulings as its possible to use instead of focusing on getting the most out of just one. The only reason LordDrako's build doesn't get put on the shelf with the other TO builds is because of how violently and silly he defends it in his threads and how angry he gets the forum regulars who he baits into confrontation.

I mean, Tippy is more about the analysis of the effects the strange magical RAW would have on the game. I certainly wouldn't put him in the same descriptor as TO builds like HIVE. Furthermore, the only builds that get noted are those that find new material. This build isn't transformative nor innovative. That is the reason it doesn't end on the shelf.
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This build includes some unusual sources (looking at you, Undead Batteries) and most of the tricks already uncovered by the community. It's not really transformative enough to warrant much recognition. Finally, if we wanna play games and be normal RAW discussers, then technically Pun-Pun would be fair game, since he isn't actually a truly infinite loop.
TLDR;
1. Define Infinite loop, because technically there are only like 2 or three truly infinite loop builds, and this post displays several of those tricks, merely choosing not to take it to its full extent.
2. Please have source tags, at least for unusual materials.
3. Things like Taint rules could be an issue. Is there a version without taint?
4. Consumptive field shenanigans are kinda low grade.

[Gallowglass]

I mean, Tippy is more about the analysis of the effects the strange magical RAW would have on the game. I certainly wouldn't put him in the same descriptor as TO builds like HIVE. Furthermore, the only builds that get noted are those that find new material. This build isn't transformative nor innovative. That is the reason it doesn't end on the shelf.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This build includes some unusual sources (looking at you, Undead Batteries) and most of the tricks already uncovered by the community. It's not really transformative enough to warrant much recognition. Finally, if we wanna play games and be normal RAW discussers, then technically Pun-Pun would be fair game, since he isn't actually a truly infinite loop.
TLDR;
1. Define Infinite loop, because technically there are only like 2 or three truly infinite loop builds, and this post displays several of those tricks, merely choosing not to take it to its full extent.
2. Please have source tags, at least for unusual materials.
3. Things like Taint rules could be an issue. Is there a version without taint?
4. Consumptive field shenanigans are kinda low grade.

Sorry, I typed Tippy when I meant PunPun. I got no beef with Tippy.

Good point about new and inventive.

[LTwerewolf]

I was hoping this thread would be interesting. It was for a moment, but ceased to be. I feel flickerdart's quote applies to "new" builds like these as well.

[Flickerdart]

I was hoping this thread would be interesting. It was for a moment, but ceased to be. I feel flickerdart's quote applies to "new" builds like these as well.

There's a fundamental issue with threads like this - "here is my build intended to beat X." The thread always draws an arbitrary line and says "here is 'real' D&D and everything stronger is cheese." But because D&D is not linear, the line usually ends up gerrymandering resources in such a way that all builds not using the exact cheese the OP uses can be declared 'not real D&D' or "not PO" or whatever.

[LTwerewolf]

There's a fundamental issue with threads like this - "here is my build intended to beat X." The thread always draws an arbitrary line and says "here is 'real' D&D and everything stronger is cheese." But because D&D is not linear, the line usually ends up gerrymandering resources in such a way that all builds not using the exact cheese the OP uses can be declared 'not real D&D' or "not PO" or whatever.

The OP refuses to acknowledge use of infinite loops, saying arbitrarily high is also infinite, while using that very thing (arbitrarily high) themselves, nullifying the entire exercise. I found it very disappointing. I enjoy looking at TO and PO builds that are interesting.

[ATalsen]

Would you please cite that reading of "attack"? My intuition makes me think it is only includes things with an attack roll (you know, the thing that Tower Shields give a penalty to?).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverv...tingSpells.htm

Attacks
Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone.


(Pathfinder has the same language)

[Madara]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverv...tingSpells.htm
... All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks.

You know, I believe Dungeons and Dragons never included a definition for hamper.

Spoiler: My definition

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[Buufreak]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverv...tingSpells.htm

Attacks
Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone.


(Pathfinder has the same language)

Does this exempt me from digging through my 150+ books? If so, I feel I have just a few things to touch on/agree with, thusly in order:

1. Sometimes we, as a whole, do need posts like this, if nothing more than for the good laugh of it all.

2. Yes, can we please skip the bickering, post the builds, and run the numbers?

3. I am beginning to enjoy these threads almost as much as the Regulars as X posts, if nothing more than being able to enjoy the time spent together with the like-minded.

4. I finally got the cheese and salsa, where did that fudge go?

[ryu]

Does this exempt me from digging through my 150+ books? If so, I feel I have just a few things to touch on/agree with, thusly in order:

1. Sometimes we, as a whole, do need posts like this, if nothing more than for the good laugh of it all.

2. Yes, can we please skip the bickering, post the builds, and run the numbers?

3. I am beginning to enjoy these threads almost as much as the Regulars as X posts, if nothing more than being able to enjoy the time spent together with the like-minded.

4. I finally got the cheese and salsa, where did that fudge go?

There you go. Fifty pounds of sweet peanutbuttery goodness.



Looks good don't it?

[Beheld]

I have to agree with the guy pointing out that "infinite loops are not allowed, and I'm not using infinite loops, just NI large numbers of things!" basically renders this pointless. Sarruk stat boosting is already NI numbers on it's own. (I don't think that the "write your own ability" thing is actually rules legal, but I also don't care, since I don't need it for this example.)

So right off the bat I propose: Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/DweomerKeeper 5: This character is a Kobold or whatever, it doesn't matter. Things it does:

1) Uses Supernatural Wishes to get infinite magic items, including scrolls of for example, Embrace and Shun the Dark Choas
2) Buys an Otughy Hole.
3) Has every single feat in the entire game the maximum number of times that feat can be taken.
4) Has a CL of whatever NI number it wants.
5) Does the Familiar Stat Dance to have stats of whatever NI numbers it wants.
6) Persists spells NI times from it's NI pool of spells. Go look up every spell that exists that would be good to have on you, it has those on it.
7) It can See in Magical Darkness which bypasses Blacklight.
8) It can roll 1d20+999999999999999999999999 for spot checks, so it beats your 202 hide. On the other hand, you can never beat his +9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999 hide modifer!
9) The character has Touchsight and Mindsight if Mindsight is blocked by Mindblank, well he has Mindblank too, if Touchsight it blocked by Incorporeality, then he that too. He of course has Superior Invisibility, and also Darkstalker, because why not.
10) The character has as many Rings of Spell Battle as the highest number he can imagine in a single magical item with multiple effects stacked on with a wish.

He casts Holy Word, and Blasphemy and Word of Law and Word of Chaos at CL 99999999999999999999999999999 because he damn well can (also he has the evil, good, lawful, and chaotic subtypes, so he ignores all those spells).

Presumably he just shows up and beats your spot and listen, while beating your hide and MS, and then moves on to killing you with those spells, or his DC 999999999999999999999999 kill spells, or he traps your soul in a Supernatural Trap the Soul.

Worst case scenario, he just walks up and punches you with his +9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99 attack for 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999 damage.

Maybe you have the ability to be immune to all that, but then again, he's also immune to everything you have. Most likely, the combination of Mindblank + the world not being the size of a thimble, means that the two characters never ever run into each other and all move on with our lives.

But the point should be obvious, that if you allow boosting to NI numbers with non infinite loops like Taint DCs or Taint Extra Spells, or Drakehelm+Dragonpact+Retraining, then the winner is the person who thinks of the higher number. And that's really not a challenge that I find particularly impressive to be the winner of.

[Zanos]

Drakehelm+Dragonpact+Retraining.

I might as well get something other than popcorn and fudge out of this thread, so could someone kindly expand on this trick for me?

[OldTrees1]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverv...tingSpells.htm

Attacks
Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone.


(Pathfinder has the same language)

Thank you.

Does this exempt me from digging through my 150+ books?

Yes, although I still appreciate your willingness.

[ragevillain]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverv...tingSpells.htm

Attacks
Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone.


(Pathfinder has the same language)

Very good this definition , ready, now we have a starting point .
So
Greater Arcane Fusion is not considered an attack, target: Personal

[ragevillain]

You know, I believe Dungeons and Dragons never included a definition for hamper.

Spoiler: My definition

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LOL

[VisitingDaGulag]

@Zanos Retraining is a 'free', sketchily used method to make any choice from your character build over again. So you just 'forget' an old spell granted by the drake helm and in its place learn a new one. People using even more abusive interpretations will say that the retrained spell that the drake helm gave doesn't go away when the helm is removed. Now where it again for that spell again, plus the one you retrained. Rinse and repeat.

I have no problem with real 'countering x' builds. "The terminator" helped the community understand pun-pun.

draws an arbitrary line and says "here is 'real' D&D and everything stronger is cheese."

the line usually ends up gerrymandering resources in such a way that all builds not using the exact cheese the OP uses can be declared 'not real D&D'

You are conflating two things. One is the canon source list for D&D: core, SRD, WotC web, WotC books, WotC adventures, Campaign-specific (faerun, eberron, dragonlance, parts of OA), Magazines (Dungeon, Dragon, WotC's polyhedron), and a few outliers that maintained their WotC-granted license throughout 3e's lifetime like Diablo II Diablerie.

The other is the line of TO. While the above is google-able, this one is a centered set. I still don't get why people have difficulty with this. Maybe its just a lack of intuition by a seemingly large number of players. It is characterized by easy builds (only 1 or two ingredients) that make for huge levels of power higher than people other than Tippy (ice assassins, really?) have ever played at. NI loops are just one feature of it. Other features include bringing the sciences into D&D, getting abilities without any cost, or choosing the most abusive interpretations of abilities in order to get extremely large amounts of power out of them (rather than for the rule of cool, or to help impose balance). It's not hard to understand unless you're being obtuse or pedantic.



@OP: Not speaking English fluently is fine. Not citing the hundreds and hundreds of diverse character options you are pulling for is not. I mean, sure, I know that Undead Battery is from AoM. But the feat is a sidebar and expecting your readers to find those kind of things themselves is not reasonable. Don't get me wrong. I downloaded the meta-compendium over at minmax, so I have all the indexes and I would look up whatever I don't remember off the top of my head if I felt the build had any value. But you're using BOB, Fusioned, Ice Assassins (but no Aleaxes?) why not just use more broken 9th level spells like Travel through Time? At least The Terminator I mentioned above had class.

[Beheld]

I might as well get something other than popcorn and fudge out of this thread, so could someone kindly expand on this trick for me?

I'm actually just referring to his own claimed method to have a Sorcerer that spontaneously casts from all spells ever printed.

Basically, the Drakehelm allows a Sorcerer to know an additional spell, the Dragonpacts allow you to give up spells you know in exchange for knowing other spells. He's powering Dragonpacts with Drakehelms to lose nothing and gain new spells, and then "retraining" the Dragonpacts away so that he never Dragonpacted (after taking off the Drakehelm).

Just like every other part of his build that hasn't been common knowledge for eight years, it's dependent on several absurd rules readings at once.

Which is honestly, really pathetic, because I can do the same thing with a Sorcerer in a completely rules legal way "Shun the Dark Chaos an Otughy Holed Iron Will for Extra Spell Known as many times as you want."

[JNAProductions]

I'm actually just referring to his own claimed method to have a Sorcerer that spontaneously casts from all spells ever printed.

Basically, the Drakehelm allows a Sorcerer to know an additional spell, the Dragonpacts allow you to give up spells you know in exchange for knowing other spells. He's powering Dragonpacts with Drakehelms to lose nothing and gain new spells, and then "retraining" the Dragonpacts away so that he never Dragonpacted (after taking off the Drakehelm).

Just like every other part of his build that hasn't been common knowledge for eight years, it's dependent on several absurd rules readings at once.

Which is honestly, really pathetic, because I can do the same thing with a Sorcerer in a completely rules legal way "Shun the Dark Chaos an Otughy Holed Iron Will for Extra Spell Known as many times as you want."

Wouldn't that cause you to lose the spells gained from Dragonpact? I mean, you don't keep the benefits of a feat after retraining it.

[ragevillain]

Which is honestly, really pathetic, because I can do the same thing with a Sorcerer in a completely rules legal way "Shun the Dark Chaos an Otughy Holed Iron Will for Extra Spell Known as many times as you want."

No, because infinite loop is not followed .
My friend, if you do not agree with any rule , tell me . I have considered three different rules for me, I see no problem

[JNAProductions]

No, because infinite loop is not followed .
My friend, if you do not agree with any rule , tell me . I have considered three different rules for me, I see no problem

How is that an infinite loop? At all? I mean, you're using gorram Taint! That's way closer to an infinite loop than Otyugh Hole Dark Chaos Shuffling!

[Beheld]

Wouldn't that cause you to lose the spells gained from Dragonpact? I mean, you don't keep the benefits of a feat after retraining it.

Right, he's claiming that when he loses the spells from the Dragonpact, he gains back the spells he lost to get them (even though their original source is now gone). Which is of course, silly, because that's an absurd reading with no basis in the rules, and also doubly silly, because all he had to do was Oytugh Hole Iron Will, and then Embrace and Shun it into Extra Spell over and over until he had all the spells he wanted.

[ryu]

No, because infinite loop is not followed .
My friend, if you do not agree with any rule , tell me . I have considered three different rules for me, I see no problem

Except that loop isn't infinite at ALL. a visit to the old iron will hole costs 3000 gp. It's not infinite. It's just really cheap. Infinite would be if started using the heroics spells as fuel.

[JNAProductions]

Right, he's claiming that when he loses the spells from the Dragonpact, he gains back the spells he lost to get them (even though their original source is now gone). Which is of course, silly, because that's an absurd reading with no basis in the rules, and also doubly silly, because all he had to do was Oytugh Hole Iron Will, and then Embrace and Shun it into Extra Spell over and over until he had all the spells he wanted.

Agreed. His reading is patently absurd.

Except that loop isn't infinite at ALL. a visit to the old iron will hole costs 3000 gp. It's not infinite. It's just really cheap. Infinite would be if started using the heroics spells as fuel.

Exactly! It's easy to do, but not infinite.

[Zanos]

No, because infinite loop is not followed .
My friend, if you do not agree with any rule , tell me . I have considered three different rules for me, I see no problem

How is shuffling location feats more of an infinite loop than shuffling spells from a magic item?

[Beheld]

No, because infinite loop is not followed .
My friend, if you do not agree with any rule , tell me . I have considered three different rules for me, I see no problem

..... So your way of getting every spell is "not an infinite loop" but my (actually legal way) of doing literally the exact same thing is "an infinite loop"?

Why? I got in an Hole a finite amount of times. I had a scroll of Embrace the Dark Chaos cast a finite amount of times. I had Shun the Dark Chaos cast a finite amount of times.

It can't be infinite because I could do it an infinite number of times because:
a) I can't, there are finite number of feats.
b) I'm literally adding the same number of spells you are, if my way is infinite, then by the transitive property of identity so is yours.

[Beheld]

Except that loop isn't infinite at ALL. a visit to the old iron will hole costs 3000 gp. It's not infinite. It's just really cheap. Infinite would be if started using the heroics spells as fuel.

There are a number of problems with what you just said:

1) Even if you use Heroics, there are finite number of feats you can take.
2) The Hole is a physical location, you can just Greater Teleport in as many times as you want once you find one, you really don't have to pay for it.
3) Even if you did have to pay for it, but his character and mine use Supernatural Wish to get finite but arbitrarily large amounts of gold so the price is not a meaningful limiter in any way.

[ryu]

There are a number of problems with what you just said:

1) Even if you use Heroics, there are finite number of feats you can take.
2) The Hole is a physical location, you can just Greater Teleport in as many times as you want once you find one, you really don't have to pay for it.
3) Even if you did have to pay for it, but his character and mine use Supernatural Wish to get finite but arbitrarily large amounts of gold so the price is not a meaningful limiter in any way.

1: There are not in-fact, a finite number of feats. You can keep making up professions to skill focus FOREVER. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLkc1huIBCo

2 & 3: I was under the impression that lack of infinite resources meant we adhered to WBL?

[ragevillain]

Drake Helm x3=Extra Spell Know(Persisting Useful Spells)
Dragonpact with your dragon=I have access to Mother Cyst Spells and Dragon bloodline spells, so I change spells useless for useful spells.
Theurgy Rings to access any spell I want.



Pay attention: This is a way to have a viable and acceptable battle on an adventure.
Infinite loop has no clear definition. So I will try to define it.

Any action which has no limit established then have any multiple feats, spells, bodys:
Example: Shun the Dark Chaos an Otughy Holed (Multiples Feats) or Other sites multiple times.
Infinite Greater Arcane Fusion
Infinite Money or a limit not set.
Infinite Spells or a limit not set
Any action that may be abusable accumulating the same effect repeatedly, even if it really is not infinite:
Example: Awaken + Animal shapechange = Magical Beast
New Animal shapechange + New Awake

Craft contingency spell is not an infinite loop, it has a set limit. Max your HIT DICE.

Detail, this build is able to use all these tricks. But it will be only a TO build.