OOTS #1049 - The Discussion Thread

[Quibblicious]

Bows.

The phrase 'no short bows' is a linguistic quibble, since you don't need to say bows are short when they're the standard size others are based on. Technically, it would've been better to label them horse bows, since their primary use is for mounted archery Parthian style.

Also, long bows require long-term straight-growth hardwoods, which is why they arose in Northern Europe rather than the Mediterranean.

Really, would it have killed them to specify timelines in D&D to give an idea of the progress in weapons and armor?

The timeline is left unspecified so the DM can bring in whatever is appropriate for a campaign.

I have a world where the campaign starts off at roughly 12th century European arms and armor and as the world gets larger for the party they experience all the was to pre-firearms Renaissance technology and them travel to lands with other regions and tech levels.

Q

[5a Violista]

Ah, but that's not the only way an AMF could be used... it could be used so the Mechane wouldn't be able to take off...

Or, maybe, it could still take off but it won't be able to float as high until it leaves the anti-magic field. It depends on the relative weight:lift. Should note that the Mechane can float higher than any other airship, and it would be logical (specifically to prevent what you suggested) to make it still capable of floating without the magical support, just not as high.

[Snails]

Short bow = hunting bow
Short bow, composite = horse bow
Long bow = superior form of hunting bow
Long bow, composite = war bow

Obviously, all were used for martial purposes at some times and some places.

Composite material bows can have problems due to the glues that bind the layers being damaged when used in damp European weather. There are reasons that the Parthians and Mongols did well with these weapons at home, but had problems with reliability outside the preferred climate. So composites are disfavored as practical hunting tools, because the family still needs to eat when it is raining for the last two months.

[Snails]

It is possible that an AMF could be used against a heavily loaded Mechane to devastating effect, but I would speculate the probable outcome is that the engines have to be throttled back a bit to reduce strain and that is about it.

The practical effect of a huge AMF would be that the Mechane would be wholly protected from magical attack while its hull was weaker. If you have a tremendous volley of non-magical ballistas targeting the Mechane, that might be useful, but if you are at the power level to employ superior AMF then you have more reliable tactics to try instead.

[The Unlucky One]

"lol Elan dumb" remains a reliable fallback punchline. Though Roy should have really just outsourced the science lesson to V.



Or getting zapped with Superb Dispelling. Good thing we don't know anybody that can cast that!

I so see it now

Xykon sees airship with PCs on it

Xykon: Superb Dispelling

No effect

Xykon: What?! Superb dispelling!

No effect

Redcloak: It's probably non-magical, sir.

Xykon: Oh... Meteor Swarm!

Airship goes all Hindenburg

[Red XIV]

I so see it now

Xykon sees airship with PCs on it

Xykon: Superb Dispelling

No effect

Xykon: What?! Superb dispelling!

No effect

Redcloak: It's probably non-magical, sir.

Xykon: Oh... Meteor Swarm!

Airship goes all Hindenburg

That's why they use non-flammable helium instead of hydrogen. Sure, the airship would still go down from having its balloon destroyed, but it wouldn't burn up. How the question is, does the airship have rings of feather falling to pass around to the crew and passengers?

[Kantaki]

That's why they use non-flammable helium instead of hydrogen. Sure, the airship would still go down from having its balloon destroyed, but it wouldn't burn up. How the question is, does the airship have rings of feather falling to pass around to the crew and passengers?

I would hope so, otherwise they have to relay on V’s prepared spells and- most likely more helpful at those numbers (I mean how many people can V affect with featherfall and how often can she cast it[as often as he prepared, I know]) Haley’s mysterious wands of mystery.

Regarding the ship reenacting the Hindenburg, while the helium makes that unlikely, the Mechane is still mostly wood, ropes and whatever the ballon is made from, so it could still start to burn in the proposed scenario- although not as catastrophic as expected. Just enough to make the rough landing after loosing their lift a bit more complicated.

[Jay R]

Short bow is just a retronym, like acoustic guitar, analog clocks, OD&D, tabletop roleplaying games, or Elizabeth I. [They were just called "guitars", "clocks", "D&D", "rpgs", and "Elizabeth" before we had electric guitars, digital watches, AD&D, online rpgs, and Elizabeth II.]

[8BitNinja]

I wonder if the helium is made up of many tiny Helium elementals?

Alive ones, or dead ones?

Also, I'm not an evil cleric or necromancer or evil, but I still must know. If they are dead ones, are we talking about just the carcasses, or souls included?

[Gift Jeraff]

Alive ones, or dead ones?

Also, I'm not an evil cleric or necromancer or evil, but I still must know. If they are dead ones, are we talking about just the carcasses, or souls included?

Elementals and outsiders don't have souls separate from their bodies. When they die their bodies merge with their home plane:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html

[wesleytj]

Art triumphs over science?! What would Vaarsuvius say?

I can't say for certain, but it would probably make reference to a copper-piece harlot.

[Doug Lampert]

Bows.

The phrase 'no short bows' is a linguistic quibble, since you don't need to say bows are short when they're the standard size others are based on. Technically, it would've been better to label them horse bows, since their primary use is for mounted archery Parthian style.

Also, long bows require long-term straight-growth hardwoods, which is why they arose in Northern Europe rather than the Mediterranean.

Really, would it have killed them to specify timelines in D&D to give an idea of the progress in weapons and armor?

Actually, no.

The longbow was used to distinguish from the crossbow, the users of both were called archers and both were bows. The word bow was the generic, specific types had names (pelast, longbow, crossbow, possibly others), but no type was ever historically called a short bow.

Edited to add: Snails gave a pretty good explanation, but AFAIK warbow is a modern term to distinguish the so called Welsh Longbow (usually made from Spanish Yew since the English and Welsh wood didn't have quite the right characteristics) from other longbow designs.

There's pretty good reason to not call a D&D weapon the Welsh Longbow, warbow or composite longbow both work.

[RabanoDOOM]

Rocs fall, everyone dies.

[Kantaki]

Rocs fall, everyone dines.

Fixed that for you.

[Kish]

I can't say for certain, but it would probably make reference to a copper-piece harlot.

Vaarsuvius has no great affection for science, anyway.

[8BitNinja]

Elementals and outsiders don't have souls separate from their bodies. When they die their bodies merge with their home plane:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html

Oh, I forgot about that.

Does that mean that everyone on the helium plane has high pitched voices?

[arrowed]

Yes, their voices should be very squeaky as they suffocate (if the Elemental Plane of Helium is filled with pure helium). Although it does say the helium is summoned from the plane of air... which seems to indicate there is a specific environment within the elemental plane that contains pure helium, or they use a spell that summons only helium molecules rather than opening a portal or taking all the matter from a set locale. If there is a specific helium region, human(oid)s could not naturally survive in it, which could be lethal for planar explorers. Maybe some adventurers roam the pane looking for fresh helium pockets to summon from, the D&D version of drilling for oil... there's an adventure in there somewhere

[danielxcutter]

Yes, their voices should be very squeaky as they suffocate (if the Elemental Plane of Helium is filled with pure helium). Although it does say the helium is summoned from the plane of air... which seems to indicate there is a specific environment within the elemental plane that contains pure helium, or they use a spell that summons only helium molecules rather than opening a portal or taking all the matter from a set locale. If there is a specific helium region, human(oid)s could not naturally survive in it, which could be lethal for planar explorers. Maybe some adventurers roam the pane looking for fresh helium pockets to summon from, the D&D version of drilling for oil... there's an adventure in there somewhere

With the added bonus of fighting chlorine elementals. I like it.

[EyethatBinds]

At least if there's a crash on the journey the Order will be safe because of all the PADDING.

[khadgar567]

Yes, their voices should be very squeaky as they suffocate (if the Elemental Plane of Helium is filled with pure helium). Although it does say the helium is summoned from the plane of air... which seems to indicate there is a specific environment within the elemental plane that contains pure helium, or they use a spell that summons only helium molecules rather than opening a portal or taking all the matter from a set locale. If there is a specific helium region, human(oid)s could not naturally survive in it, which could be lethal for planar explorers. Maybe some adventurers roam the pane looking for fresh helium pockets to summon from, the D&D version of drilling for oil... there's an adventure in there somewhere

my dc 5 knowledge check says otherwise mate there is planar adaptation spell on pathfinder just needed to make a search check to found it

[GreatWyrmGold]

Magic airship: Vulnerable to various magic item killing effects, may be very difficult to enchant.
Mundane: Try not to poke a hole in that big fancy balloon.

(Actually it probably has some redundant chambers, but even so, it's more vulnerable in that fashion.)

That's along the same lines as I was thinking. Magic would probably be more expensive (assuming the helium-refreshing process is relatively cheap), but more reliable.

Well, they don't ever have to worry about a helium shortage, so there's a cost offset already.

That's true. Though it might be consistently scarce, depending on how many helium-collecting Gates/magicians/whatever they're using.

Sure, the airship would still go down from having its balloon destroyed, but it wouldn't burn up.

Well, the helium wouldn't burn up, but the rest of the airship would. I mean, it still got hit by four 80-foot-wide bursts of 6d6 fire damage.

I would have liked it better if the helium were summoned from the elemental plane of noble gases, or the elemental plane of gas, or even the elemental plane of Helium since Helium is an element (but air is a mixture of gases so maybe they all hang out in the same plane, have dinner parties, etc) ... but I don't write OoTS and it was a good enough answer to where all of that helium comes from.

Not all conjurers got a passing grade in chem.

"Now you see that evil art will always triumph because good science is dumb dull!"

Spoken like a true layman.
I just don't understand how people can think science takes all the wonder out of the world. Knowing how everything works is much more wondrous than being in the dark.

Science and art aren't opposing ends of a spectrum though. Music! Visual Arts! Acting!

See, that's more like it!

Ah, but in every Helium there are two Hidrogens waiting to come out. Sure, the energy cost is prohibitive, but that's what magic is for.

A helium atom is less massive than two hydrogen atoms. Good thing, too, or else the Sun couldn't shine.

my dc 5 knowledge check says otherwise mate there is planar adaptation spell on pathfinder just needed to make a search check to found it

Wait, did you make a Knowledge check or a Search check?

[DaggerPen]

A helium atom is less massive than two hydrogen atoms. Good thing, too, or else the Sun couldn't shine.

Doesn't mean it's not possible to split it back into hydrogen, though - you just have to add the equivalent amount back in. Which is cost prohibitive, as said above

[Kish]

Wait, did you make a Knowledge check or a Search check?

He made a Knowledge check to observe that arrowed had failed a Search check.

[Aeson]

A helium atom is less massive than two hydrogen atoms.

Come again? The average atomic mass of hydrogen atoms is 1.something and the average atomic mass of helium atoms is 4.something. Maybe the rules of math have changed, but last I knew, 2*1 < 4.

If we take helium to be He (molar mass ~4.00g) and hydrogen to be H₂ (molar mass ~2.01g), then I won't dispute that one helium atom is on average less massive than two hydrogen molecules, but unless by "two hydrogen atoms" you mean "one atom of tritium and one atom of deuterium," I will very much dispute the idea that two hydrogen atoms are in general more massive than one helium atom.

[Sir_Norbert]

Indeed. Wikipedia to the rescue.

[Ruck]

At least if there's a crash on the journey the Order will be safe because of all the PADDING.

Can we pull the drag chute for another ten or twenty panels of pointless comics? I really want to see if this story can deflate all the way until September.

Since apparently the only reason you post in threads about the comic is to complain about pointless filler, maybe find some other source of free entertainment to spend your time on?

[Quibblicious]

I so see it now

Xykon sees airship with PCs on it

Xykon: Superb Dispelling

No effect

Xykon: What?! Superb dispelling!

No effect

Redcloak: It's probably non-magical, sir.

Xykon: Oh... Meteor Swarm!

Airship goes all Hindenburg

Not if it's filled with Helium.

Q

[8BitNinja]

Yes, their voices should be very squeaky as they suffocate (if the Elemental Plane of Helium is filled with pure helium). Although it does say the helium is summoned from the plane of air... which seems to indicate there is a specific environment within the elemental plane that contains pure helium, or they use a spell that summons only helium molecules rather than opening a portal or taking all the matter from a set locale. If there is a specific helium region, human(oid)s could not naturally survive in it, which could be lethal for planar explorers. Maybe some adventurers roam the pane looking for fresh helium pockets to summon from, the D&D version of drilling for oil... there's an adventure in there somewhere

Planar explorers could just get air tanks and wear gas masks. Sure it may be expensive, but it's more than worth it.

[factotum]

Not if it's filled with Helium.

Q

Hindenberg would still have burned if it was filled with helium and hit with a Meteor Swarm--the paint used on the balloon skin was rather flammable. It wouldn't have burned as *quickly*, but the distinction probably wouldn't have been significant for the people aboard.

[Quibblicious]

Hindenberg would still have burned if it was filled with helium and hit with a Meteor Swarm--the paint used on the balloon skin was rather flammable. It wouldn't have burned as *quickly*, but the distinction probably wouldn't have been significant for the people aboard.

The helium might well extinguish the flames, depending upon the location of the fire.

Semi-related note, I used to work with superconductors and lots of liquid helium and liquid nitrogen.

Stuff is incredibly dangerous, especially when the superconductor quenches and converts the liquid He or N to gaseous He or N. It's a huge change in volume and if not properly vented it can shove all the air out of a room and suffocate you before you even know its happened.

Q