Dragon Ball In the Playground OOC IV: Planetary Annihilation for Fun and Profit

[Hawkflight]

Well you see, people think that time is a strict, linear progression from cause to effect. However, from a non-subjective point of view, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey ... stuff.

I actually do have an answer to that based on real-world science, wherein all possible timelines always exist as a quantum superposition of each other, but that would sound really complicated, and might not jive with DBZ lore.

Also, sorry for being away for so long. Some stuff came up. Igor, I'll do the Equestria scene with you in the side-RP thread, since it's just the two of us, so we (I) don't hold things up any further.

[Frozen_Feet]

There are multiple possible answers and solutions to the paradox, yes. They just get increasingly complex, hence I suggest they get eaten by grue.

Note: if the two time patrollers tell others what they're trying to do at N, then leave to N+10, and other time patrollers engage RPA at N+1 without getting any information from N+10, then it is possible to have the attack take place in the same timeline as abducting reincarnated Yamakami without breaking causality.

But this means the two time patrollers would be too late to influence any events from N to N+10.

[Lord Raziere]

Suppose the world line for the two time patrollers is this:

Time patrollers leave Year N ---> Time patrollers arrive at Year N+10 and abduct Yamakami ---> Time patrollers go to Toki-Toki and hand information to other time patrollers ----> other time patrollers go to fight Red Planet Army at year N+1.

Then years N+10 and N+1 cannot take place in the same timeline without forming a causal paradox where an effect (other timepatrollers fighting RPA) precedes a cause (all events from N to N+10).

---

EDIT: and since you mentioned going back in time to prevent creation of Red Planet Army, that runs into the exact same paradox: the event of time patrollers learning about RPA cannot exist in the same timeline as the event of time patrollers stopping their creation without violating causality.

I do not see how a battle out in space affects a child growing up on Earth. Unless you plan to make sure that the battle affects how the child grows up or something, they are two separate events. That and why would they have a problem with finding out why Yama did it and what he knew AFTER they already destroyed the robots? Its not as if these thins are anything new to them, and if your really being uptight about the time thing, there is a simpler more elegant solution that doesn't involve being eaten by grues:

Time Kai says "no, that won't work" and they simply don't send the squad to interrogate him in the future, and then Sax and Tenas send the message back to RA that it won't happen, but nevertheless, the Time Patrol WILL find some other way of interrogating him, they're not just going to give up. He has done something to attract their attention and imitate one of their enemies as a taunt. All thats happened so far is Tenas and Sax saying they will, not that anything is actually done. They're not comedy gods who will screw around like Sun Kai, they take their duties seriously.

That and Toki-Toki is the center of time and sees and knows all and whatnot so....it is kind of that timeline where things That Didn't Happen are remembered. Like all the stuff in the scrolls that the TP's prevented, like Vegeta switching bodies with Ginyu and thus the hilarious scene of Ginyu doing his poses in Vegetas body with the rest of the Ginyu Force. That never happened, the Time Patrol made sure of it. They still saw it as a thing that could transpire and prevented it, and still remember it. Even though it technically never happened. just pointing that out.

[igordragonian]

FF- Do you want me to send some character to Mars? Or the book would be enough for now?


Raziere and Hawk- are we doing the Bodukai thing?

[Frozen_Feet]

@Raziere: there are no isolated events. In order for there to be N+10 for Tenas and Sax to travel to, all events from N to N+10 have to happen. And if the timeline from N to N+10 contains any event caused by N+10 or after, such as an attack at N+1, you have a paradox. The attack can't happen before T&N return from N+10, but neither can T&N travel to N+10 before the attack happens.

Original DB timeline got around this by proposing a multiverse: instead of N, the timetraveller goes to Nv2, and the attack happens at Nv2+1 instead of N+1, thus preserving causality. The original timeline from N to N+10 is unaffected by the changes and is relegated wholly to past of Nv2.

And here's the kicker: divine time travel, as far as I've been able to see, follows the same model with the exception that events are properly reversed, meaning they are "erased" from viewpoint of non-timetravelling persons. So the attack would still take place at Nv2+1 instead N+1 and there would still be a line from N to N+10 where the attack does not happen, but when the timetraveller returns to Nv2, the original line from N to N+10 is discontinued.

In both models, the RA should never see Yamakami's reincarnation being abducted. If they do see it, this has two implications depending on model of time travel:

In original DB model, they live in timeline N to N+10, where the attack against Red Planet Army never happed, and events will continue progressing like it never happened.

In divine model, they live in timeline N to N+10, where the attack against Red Planet army never happened, and everything they have done since N will be reversed the moment the timetravellers leave.

Again: if the attack against RPA is neither triggered nor influenced by information from N+10, then there is no problem with the attack and abduction taking place in the same timeline. So indeed there's no problem in interrogating Yamakami after the attack. But "after the attack" means the attacking party will be going in blind.

If you don't want T&N being eaten by grue and don't want any of the above outcomes to happen, the solution is simple: don't interrogate Yamakami in the future. Interrogate him in the present. All the complexity is caused by timetravel, so you dodge it by not timetravelling.

@Igor: I'm just establishing where Trombone Jr. Is in case the RA wanta to take their turn abducting him.

[Lord Raziere]

How can you interrogate him in the present!? He is sent off to reincarnate! That is why they want to go to the future to do this at all, because reincarnation means he isn't available. And technically everywhen is the present! You can't arbitrarily say this present is more present, unless for some reason you'd have no problem if we just waited until we time skipped ten years ahead and interrogated him why he did this to begin with.

I didn't think of any of this complexity, your the one bringing it into this, your the one putting a lot more thought into this than me, and I'm not entirely sure this level of thought is needed for Dragon Ball. Something like Homestuck, you'd have more of a point because the entirety of time travel there is "time loop or everything dies".

That and they don't even want information FOR the battle, they just want to know WHY he did all this and to punish him. They don't need the tactical info, because Infinite Energy Generator's are nothing new to them. Mostly because they've faced a lot of enemies throughout time and space with numerous advantages, you kind of get a "seen it all" attitude as a result.

But whatever, if you say that its possible to interrogate him in the "present", I'll do and that and keep them from sending a squad to find info that they aren't even searching for to influence a battle they would already know how to deal with anyways without needing the tactical info they are not searching for.

@ igor: I still want to do the Budokai yes. and I think I can adequately get both the Trombonicon and Trombone Jr. myself.

[Frozen_Feet]

@Raziere: yes the present of the game is more present than any other present of any other timeline, because it's the moment we're actually writing for. You can tell what is happening in the game's timeline by reading last page of the IC.

By contrast, knowing what would happen ten years down the line requires assuming and fabricating additional things which haven't been established yet. Including such things like Yamakami's reincarnation even existing at that point of time.

You can argue 'till you're blue in the face that IC, Kai of Time and/or Time Patrol would know these things. It won't make it any less pain-in-the ass to implement. I'm not enamored with characters trying to make prescriptive statements of what will happen in the game before I've even thought about writing it. I'm also not fond of temporal paradoxes, which is why I noted what sequence of events would lead to one.

My commentary has next to nill to do with why Time Patrol would do anything or what would be smart or competent from them, so don't waste your time talking about those. Just pick a chain of actions which doesn't create a paradox.

Now, as to "how can we interrogate Yamakami in the present?", I already suggested he'd be reborn as a child to Lucifer the Magnificent. So find his spirit hanging around Lucifer's girlfriend or wife or something. It's not like that makes less sense than jumping ten years to the future in order to give Yamakami's reincarnation memories of his past life so he can answer questions; in neither case is the Time Patrol trying to get information from the new person Yamakami will be born as, so which stage of development they're in is irrelevant.

[Lord Raziere]

Ok, sorry man, just......kind of stressed right now, sorry......I've done the non-paradox thing, lets just have fun, okay? just.....get on with the game.

[Hawkflight]

Whoa, hang on. Sorry, I know I've been a bit inactive, but I really want Starlight to be there for the rescue of the Namekian kid. That's kind of her thing, and I've been anticipating this for a while now.

[Lord Raziere]

Oh. sorry...jumped the gun

Well then, what to do?

how can we solve this?

Perhaps 23 can observe that he isn't feeling all that enthusiastic about the situation and would want to tell Starlight so that she could come and talk to him about it?

[Hawkflight]

Eh ... screw it, I can read my backlog later. Posting now.

Oh. sorry...jumped the gun

Well then, what to do?

how can we solve this?

Perhaps 23 can observe that he isn't feeling all that enthusiastic about the situation and would want to tell Starlight so that she could come and talk to him about it?

Well, I'm bringing Starlight back next post and having her ask WTF happened, so 23 can tell her and then they can go together.

[igordragonian]

How to time manipulate between Flake's training and adventure to Equestria?

[Lord Raziere]

Just let her know that she is going on a trip, and she will end it and restart it when you get back.

[Hawkflight]

Something I couldn't really bring up in my post, but may be relevant - Starlight has a calming effect on animals, as that's her special talent. It sometimes works on young children, too, like Trombone Jr. Not always, though, so I leave it up to you as to whether it does or not.

[igordragonian]

You told me to remind you aboud Vodkana and Starlight at Equestria...

[Emperor Ing]

So i'm going to vent about something only semi-relevant...

I've been avoiding Dragonball Super because i'm waiting for the english dub. Those high-pitched japanese VAs give me a headache. Anyways, it's been made harder by my youtube recommendations giving me full episodes of Dragonball Super. That wouldn't be a problem, except the posters are dumb enough to write spoilerific titles along the lines of "Important Character reacts to Important Plot Twist."

Ugh. Calm down. Seriously.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah, thats annoying. Youtube recommendations are like a bonsai: you gotta know how to cut certain growths off right so you only get what you want from it. that reminds me, the Resurrection of F arc of Super is out now, should remember to go watch it, see whats improved from the movie.

[Frozen_Feet]

I'm entertaining the idea of Lucifer's son (Ha. Ha. Ha.) and Luxana's daughter (do i remember right?) meeting when they're growing as kids and having their own weird adventures once RA is off-planet again. We could justify several years passing for them while RA is on Talsaiga due to relativistic weirdness of travelling that far.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm entertaining the idea of Lucifer's son (Ha. Ha. Ha.) and Luxana's daughter (do i remember right?) meeting when they're growing as kids and having their own weird adventures once RA is off-planet again. We could justify several years passing for them while RA is on Talsaiga due to relativistic weirdness of travelling that far.

I'm pretty sure that Ing has some scientific explanation why that relativity won't happen with the hyperdrives he has as space-canon. though I think your joking.

Luxana's daughter is named Astralys by the way. Probably going to have her own weird fate-astrological-sign-martial arts going on by then.

Side note, given the most recent DB Super episode, I'm really glad I came up with Talsaigan Fusion now:

Spoiler

Show

Potara Earrings have been retconned into being only one hour long for anyone who isn't a Shinjin/Kai. Meaning the Talsaigan Fusion is the only permanent fusion technique for anyone.

[Frozen_Feet]

Only half-joking; I know we've been ignoring relativity for space travel, in this particular case it'd just make for a convenient excuse why some characters skip ahead by few years and others don't. Though you could get around that if Talsaiga and it's system has weird gravity, causing the planet itself to have slower flow of time in contrast to Earth.

[Emperor Ing]

Igor, what side-deal did you want Zorbab to make with the Emperor? I gather he's selling out Tsarbone but is there something else to it?

[igordragonian]

Igor, what side-deal did you want Zorbab to make with the Emperor? I gather he's selling out Tsarbone but is there something else to it?

Oh.right. originaly I planned a watcher convient monoluge.

Well-
Spoon through third party criminal group contacted Zorbab. Spoon tried to ensure himself in both cases- either Hailing or Apfel win the conflict.

Zorbab promised Hailing to bait all the potential traitors- he has manipulated Tsarbone and the others to join Apfel- but he'l use it to "clean"the empire from traitors.
Hailing probably waited long for such a chance...

Zorbab didn"t wanted to make it look TOO easy, so he showed that he forced to help- to give Apfel a brain buck to think about.

If Apfel would investigate,he would discover a feline non nyagato criminal as the connection to Zorbab.

Spoon tried to make a clean work, but compared to Zorbab he was a hilly billy

[Hawkflight]

So, I've made a separate thread for little side-RPs, like mine and Igor's. It should probably be added to the OOC post, and it can be used for smaller scenes that would otherwise bog down the RP, like the ones in Equestria or the ones with Zarbone and Slushie. Igor, sorry for taking so long, but it's up.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...1#post21405741

[igordragonian]

Ing- where do you preffer to continue with Tsarbone?

[Frozen_Feet]

I'm waiting for some sort of input from Hawkflight regarding the scene on Mars.

[Emperor Ing]

Ing- where do you preffer to continue with Tsarbone?

Sorry, I didn't see this post until now

I'd prefer to see Tsarbone responding to what Apfel just said.

I'll try to get a post up soon.

[igordragonian]

Sorry, I didn't see this post until now

I'd prefer to see Tsarbone responding to what Apfel just said.

I'll try to get a post up soon.

I meant the side thread Hawk created- to continue the scene there?

[Lord Raziere]

I'm waiting for some sort of input from Hawkflight regarding the scene on Mars.

I am waiting on this as well. Just to be clear.

[Emperor Ing]

I meant the side thread Hawk created- to continue the scene there?

Well we aren't in Equestria so...no

[Frozen_Feet]

Apfel's reasoning is amusing to follow, because it would be drastically different if he'd witnessed or been told of one extra piece of information: the Red Planet Army stopping Shenron. That'd allowed him to deduce that the RPA already has engineered a mass-lock, and hence make an additional hypothesis that they either have a failsafe or way to bypass mass locks.

Technically, Apfel is right - C-II does not have an Imperial fail safe. However, as his ability to travel at FTL speeds is a function of his general ability to control gravity, he obviously has means to detect, create, nullify and destroy the sort of artificial gravity wells which could serve as a mass-lock. In effect, this means his "safety margin" for external gravitic interference is higher than the surface gravity of Arcos.