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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    One punch man is a decent starting point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    I can think of three different ways immediately to justify strategic movement that aren't spellcasting. You could use your impossible swordsmanship to cut a hole in reality and step through. You could be the Flash, and just be that damn fast. You could have a seven-league stride. Interplanar movement is a little trickier, but still possible.
    Agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    Agreed with Tippy. You can remove any mechanical association with 3.5 spellcasting, for example by not requiring any expendable resource, but the ability to take other forms is going to be magic, no two ways about it.

    You can do what (greater) teleport/plane shift does by 'slipping between the planes', using an Escape Artist check.

    You can do what ice assassin does with a Craft check, fusion with a Heal check, and astral seed with a Survival check.

    Are those things less magical because they are (Ex) and done via skill checks? I really doubt it.
    Man, I dunno. Seems to me they're way less magical.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    The issue with saying "but that replicates [spellcasting]/[a spell]" is twofold.
    1. There exists a spell or combination of spells for anything that characters are expected (by the designers) to have to do in D&D.
    2. Dismissing [being able to do things that spells can also do] as refluffed spellcasting means dismissing most of 3.5. Psionics, invocations, incarnum, pact magic; there's so many different subsystems, all of which are designed to help characters meet the challenges they're expected to face, a purpose for which spellcasting is also designed. Heck, there are spells that grant full BAB and spells that grant fighter feats - is the fighter as printed in the PHB, then, just refluffed spellcasting?
    I view your second point to be splitting hairs - Psions, Incarnates, Warlocks et al. may not be spellcasters, but I do consider them to be casters, i.e. definitely not "martials."

    As for your first point - it doesn't actually matter to me that there is a combination of magic that can do everything it's possible to do in the system. Broadly speaking, to me, magic should be more capable than not-magic. What I do think it needs is less ammunition; the wizard can do anything the fighter can do plus anything only the wizard can do, but it should be more sensible in most situations to just focus on the latter and bring a fighter with you. Currently, the game gives casters too many resources (bonus spells and consumables) and makes it a little too easy to do the fighter's job (a single Polymorph spell will do it in 3.5, leaving plenty of slots available to do other things) and that's what I think should be addressed moreso than creating Saitama.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    The generally accepted thought behind a Tier 1 is being able to handle an situation or combination of situations. Anything you throw at them, they have a counter for.

    So to get a martial character up to Tier 1, they would have to have a solid answer for each of the following at any given time:
    • ethereal/incorporeal creatures
    • flying creatures
    • creatures with damage reduction
    • social encounters
    • skill challenges
    • mundane travel
    • planar travel
    • ally death
    • character death
    • surprise rounds
    • enemy armies
    • ally armies
    • debilitating effects
    • high-level single magicals/martials
    • low-level groups of magicals/martials
    • extraplanar creatures
    • probably some more things that I can't think of but someone else will


    Now, having an easy answer to some of these and still at least having a workable answer for the rest puts you into Tier 2 (I still say the Bard has moved up to Tier 2 with splatbooks, but that's just me). Having a workable answer for most or having an easy answer for one and being support for the rest puts you into Tier 3. Having a workable answer for one or two and being support for the rest puts you into Tier 4. Being basically a support character for all of these puts you at Tier 5. And if you have no answer for any of these (*cough* CW Samurai *cough*), you end up with Tier 6.

    The Tier System isn't about whether or not something is magical, it's about whether or not a class has an answer to a problem and how easy that answer is to put into play. If you want to move martials up into the higher tiers, you need to give them answers for more of these.
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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    The generally accepted thought behind a Tier 1 is being able to handle an situation or combination of situations. Anything you throw at them, they have a counter for.

    So to get a martial character up to Tier 1, they would have to have a solid answer for each of the following at any given time:
    • ethereal/incorporeal creatures
    • flying creatures
    • creatures with damage reduction
    • social encounters
    • skill challenges
    • mundane travel
    • planar travel
    • ally death
    • character death
    • surprise rounds
    • enemy armies
    • ally armies
    • debilitating effects
    • high-level single magicals/martials
    • low-level groups of magicals/martials
    • extraplanar creatures
    • probably some more things that I can't think of but someone else will


    Now, having an easy answer to some of these and still at least having a workable answer for the rest puts you into Tier 2 (I still say the Bard has moved up to Tier 2 with splatbooks, but that's just me). Having a workable answer for most or having an easy answer for one and being support for the rest puts you into Tier 3. Having a workable answer for one or two and being support for the rest puts you into Tier 4. Being basically a support character for all of these puts you at Tier 5. And if you have no answer for any of these (*cough* CW Samurai *cough*), you end up with Tier 6.

    The Tier System isn't about whether or not something is magical, it's about whether or not a class has an answer to a problem and how easy that answer is to put into play. If you want to move martials up into the higher tiers, you need to give them answers for more of these.
    I could totally see Saitama handling all of that.
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    A comment on tiers, by Prime32
    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I view your second point to be splitting hairs - Psions, Incarnates, Warlocks et al. may not be spellcasters, but I do consider them to be casters, i.e. definitely not "martials."
    That's fair. But "refluffed magic" doesn't have quite as much punch to it as "refluffed spellcasting", now does it? "It's just refluffed spells" was being used to dismiss abilities that would follow different game mechanics than spellcasting, so declaring them mechanically identical to spellcasting and then using that to say that the proposed abilities might as well not exist at all is faulty reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    As for your first point - it doesn't actually matter to me that there is a combination of magic that can do everything it's possible to do in the system. Broadly speaking, to me, magic should be more capable than not-magic.
    If a system is designed with the idea in mind that magic should have broader and better capabilities than not-magic, then a "tier 1 martial" is impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    What I do think it needs is less ammunition; the wizard can do anything the fighter can do plus anything only the wizard can do, but it should be more sensible in most situations to just focus on the latter and bring a fighter with you. Currently, the game gives casters too many resources (bonus spells and consumables) and makes it a little too easy to do the fighter's job (a single Polymorph spell will do it in 3.5, leaving plenty of slots available to do other things) and that's what I think should be addressed moreso than creating Saitama.
    This leaves untouched a particularly glaring issue with classes like the fighter; namely, they have no real way to interact with the story beyond rolling dice at the meatbags set in front of them by the DM. Martial characters, even very good ones, are playing a rail-shooter, while the wizard is playing Morrowind.

    Another issue with trying to use differences in resource limitations as a primary balancing factor is that how limited a certain resource is will vary from one game to the next. If a system is designed with the assumption that characters will face X encounters each day and that wizards will use an average of 3 spells per encounter, then players who (due to their personal playstyle) average more than 3 spells in each encounter (or who average 3 per encounter on days with more than X encounters) will run out of spells and have nothing to do for the rest of the day, and players who (again, due to playstyle) average less than 3 spells in each encounter will underperform because they are not using as much of their power as the game expects them to. Being useless some of the time is not fun, nor is being not particularly useful all of the time.

    There are ways around this (e.g. Psions getting a certain number of temporary power points per encounter, along with a small pool for any powers they want to use outside of combat, with the fluff being that the extra temporary PP are their mind responding to the pressure of combat), but they generally require abandoning some or all of the limited-resource structure.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    As long as it doesn't feel like spellcasting and you still feel like a martial, I'd say it's not just "refluffing" since obviously it's going to have different mechanics that just "SLA's with (Ex) slapped on them".
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    In order to have a T1 martial character, the best model you can find is golden age Superman.

    No, seriously. This is a character who, within his universe, can solve most problems with little to no outside help and has abilities which allow him to perform other characters jobs, sometimes better than even those who specialize in that area. Need a character who can deal immense amounts of damage? Boom. Disguise his face? Done that. Violate action economy? Done that.

    This is even before you consider that he can create powers for himself on the fly, customizing his loadout to the situation. Basically, he's a T1 martial.
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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Hypothetical Class (quick and dirty version) -

    THE UNBERMENSCH


    Hit Die: d12

    BAB Fort Ref Will Special Maneuvers
    Known
    Maneuvers
    Readied
    Stances
    Known
    +1 +2 +2 +2 Bonus Feat 6 5 1
    +2 +3 +3 +3 Bonus Feat 7 5 2
    +3 +3 +3 +3 8 5 2
    +4 +4 +4 +4 Bonus Feat 9 5 2
    +5 +4 +4 +4 Fly 10 6 3
    +6 +5 +5 +5 Bonus Feat, Pounce 11 6 3
    +7 +5 +5 +5 Freedom of Movement 12 6 3
    +8 +6 +6 +6 Bonus Feat 13 7 3
    +9 +6 +6 +6 Teleport (standard action) 14 7 4
    +10 +7 +7 +7 Bonus Feat 15 8 4
    +11 +7 +7 +7 16 8 4
    +12 +8 +8 +8 Bonus Feat 17 8 4
    +13 +8 +8 +8 Teleport (move action) 18 9 4
    +14 +9 +9 +9 Bonus Feat 19 9 5
    +15 +9 +9 +9 Mind Blank 20 10 5
    +16 +10 +10 +10 Bonus Feat 21 10 5
    +17 +10 +10 +10 Teleport (swift action) 22 10 5
    +18 +11 +11 +11 Bonus Feat 23 11 5
    +19 +11 +11 +11 24 11 5
    +20 +12 +12 +12 Bonus Feat 25 12 6


    Class Skills
    The ubermensch can choose any ten skills to be class skills.

    Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier (or four times this number at 1st level).

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An ubermensch is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

    Maneuvers: You begin your career with knowledge of six martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to you are Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven.

    Maneuvers Readied: (as per warblade, ToB p.20)

    Stances Known: (as per warblade, ToB p.20)

    Bonus Feats: An ubermensch gets one bonus feat at 1st level, one at 2nd level, and another one at every second class level (4th, 6th, and so on).

    Fly (Su): at 5th level, the ubermensch can fly as per the spell. Activating or deactivating this ability is a swift action, and it functions continuously until deactivated, or disrupted by an outside source (such as an anti magic field).

    Pounce (Ex): when the ubermensch makes a charge, he can follow with a full attack.

    Freedom of Movement (Su): at 7th level, the ubermensch can cloak himself with a freedom of movement effect, as per the spell. Activating or deactivating this ability is a swift action, and it functions continuously until deactivated, or disrupted by an outside source (such as an anti magic field).

    Teleport (Sp): at 9th once per day per point of Con bonus, the ubermensch can teleport as a spell-like-ability. CL is equal to his class level. At 13th level, activating this ability becomes a move action. At 17th level, it becomes a swift action.

    Mind Blank (Su): at 15th level, the ubermensch can cloak himself with a mind blank effect, as per the spell. Activating or deactivating this ability is a swift action, and it functions continuously until deactivated, or disrupted by an outside source (such as an anti magic field).





    ...apart from my horrendous formatting and obviously errors and omissions in my write-up, am I correct in assuming this would only still make it to tier 2?

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    SNIP
    You are incorrect in assuming that this is T2. Rather, this is a high-tier 3. For comparison, a sorcerer is, at level 9, able to cast the Wightocalypse. Alternatively, they could gate in literal extraplanar beings. No, the T1 martial would have to be able to solve any problem with little to no effort. If I had time, I'd almost model it like a power point system, but each ability would cost a swift action and at least 1 power point to utilize. I'd probably have the character draw their powers from some focus object (e.g. the sun) and require 1 hour of focus on this object to establish that link. From there, the character could change out his various powers daily based on what was necessary. Flight would be one possible power, another could be matter manipulation, creating a cone of cold, the ability to travel faster than light (e.g. Time Stop) etc.

    In addition to that, these powers would have to be pretty darn abusable. I would recommend that they scale with the character's BAB. The powers would only be usable while the character has power in their reservoir; using their abilities would cost a certain amount of energy from their reservoir, which can be replenished with exposure to their power source.

    There's more, and I'll post a full work up later, but that's where we'll start.
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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyBlack View Post
    You are incorrect in assuming that this is T2. Rather, this is a high-tier 3. For comparison, a sorcerer is, at level 9, able to cast the Wightocalypse. Alternatively, they could gate in literal extraplanar beings. No, the T1 martial would have to be able to solve any problem with little to no effort. If I had time, I'd almost model it like a power point system, but each ability would cost a swift action and at least 1 power point to utilize. I'd probably have the character draw their powers from some focus object (e.g. the sun) and require 1 hour of focus on this object to establish that link. From there, the character could change out his various powers daily based on what was necessary. Flight would be one possible power, another could be matter manipulation, creating a cone of cold, the ability to travel faster than light (e.g. Time Stop) etc.

    In addition to that, these powers would have to be pretty darn abusable. I would recommend that they scale with the character's BAB. The powers would only be usable while the character has power in their reservoir; using their abilities would cost a certain amount of energy from their reservoir, which can be replenished with exposure to their power source.

    There's more, and I'll post a full work up later, but that's where we'll start.
    Fair enough...this pretty sums up everything I dislike about the tier system.

    [edit]I have updated the formatting of my post, and added some changes about the activation time of teleport.[/edit]

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    @Extra Anchovis:

    The whole thing will hinge on how the rules for this are modeled. The core problem here is, that each "spell" is a complete discreet rules element unto itself and that a casters option are expanded by that exact rules element. Most of the time, all of that is pretty binary: You either have fly and teleport, or you donīt.

    To make it work, you must first model "Hyperreality" and drop all spells/abilities that would duplicate now "ordinary" abilities that anyone can access. This step should be done without looking at the spells, as thisīll lead to a kind of confirmation bias based on point-by-point integration.

    Once this is done, you can add "magic" to create effects that are still out of the ordinary, even in Hyperreality.

    For example - Interaction with the planes in hyperreality:

    Letīs assume that interacting with the planes "only" needs experience and willpower, creating a HD minimum for some effects and using the Iron Will feat to generate "Astral Points".

    Then anyone with 3HD, a minimum of one readied Astral Point an the necessary material components (Chalk and silver powder) can create a Magic Circle, call and bind outsiders beginning at 5HD and cross to the planes at certain "weak points" at 7HD or commune with a deity.
    Last edited by Florian; 2016-08-26 at 03:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Excuse me, but aren't Abjurant Champion, Ruby Knight Vindicator, and Slayer martial classes too?

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    The generally accepted thought behind a Tier 1 is being able to handle an situation or combination of situations. Anything you throw at them, they have a counter for.

    So to get a martial character up to Tier 1, they would have to have a solid answer for each of the following at any given time:
    • ethereal/incorporeal creatures
    • flying creatures
    • creatures with damage reduction
    • social encounters
    • skill challenges
    • mundane travel
    • planar travel
    • ally death
    • character death
    • surprise rounds
    • enemy armies
    • ally armies
    • debilitating effects
    • high-level single magicals/martials
    • low-level groups of magicals/martials
    • extraplanar creatures
    • probably some more things that I can't think of but someone else will


    Now, having an easy answer to some of these and still at least having a workable answer for the rest puts you into Tier 2 (I still say the Bard has moved up to Tier 2 with splatbooks, but that's just me). Having a workable answer for most or having an easy answer for one and being support for the rest puts you into Tier 3. Having a workable answer for one or two and being support for the rest puts you into Tier 4. Being basically a support character for all of these puts you at Tier 5. And if you have no answer for any of these (*cough* CW Samurai *cough*), you end up with Tier 6.

    The Tier System isn't about whether or not something is magical, it's about whether or not a class has an answer to a problem and how easy that answer is to put into play. If you want to move martials up into the higher tiers, you need to give them answers for more of these.
    This is just wrong. A core Druid is a T1, and can't do almost half of that stuff, at least prior to Shapechange. You don't have to be able to do everything every T1 can do to be T1. Merely to be approximately equal to the core Druid list in versatility.

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Excuse me, but aren't Abjurant Champion, Ruby Knight Vindicator, and Slayer martial classes too?
    Not really.

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    Not really.
    ???

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    This is just wrong. A core Druid is a T1, and can't do almost half of that stuff, at least prior to Shapechange. You don't have to be able to do everything every T1 can do to be T1. Merely to be approximately equal to the core Druid list in versatility.
    Wait, what's this half that stuff that the druid can't do now? Maybe skill challenges, planar travel, and surprise rounds. Social encounters possibly too, if diplomacy isn't sufficient. That's a lot less than half.

    Edit: Also, I think that standards are generally lower in a core context. If you're defining a list of stuff that a tier should generally be able to do, you've gotta be working in a particular book range in the construction of that list, because the list changes based on the book range. In that context, it's notable that planar travel and surprise rounds enter the druid's wheel house pre-17 out of core, and there's ways to do some stuff you'd want out of skills without too much effort involved. Y'know, stealthiness and skill list expansion and such.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2016-08-26 at 06:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    ???
    They mean that the thing that makes those things powerful isn't the martial side, but the casting side. The martial side is just more on top of what was already powerful. RKV on a paladin chassis isn't nearly as powerful and doesn't approach tier 1. The same goes for the slayer and abjurant champion. They're not nearly as powerful on a psychic warrior or hexblade respectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    This is just wrong. A core Druid is a T1, and can't do almost half of that stuff, at least prior to Shapechange. You don't have to be able to do everything every T1 can do to be T1. Merely to be approximately equal to the core Druid list in versatility.
    The only two things on that list I don't see a moderate level druid having an answer to is the skill challenges (for SOME skills) and the planar travel.
    Last edited by LTwerewolf; 2016-08-26 at 07:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Take any character. Give them (well, their player) the dramatic editing mechanics from White Wolf's Adventure!.

    Bob Ordinary doesn't snap his fingers to planeshift, but it seems like whenever he needs it there's always an interdimensional portal nearby going exactly where he wants to go, keyed to his pocket lint. He may be a thousand miles away from the climactic battle, but wouldn't you know it, just then an alien spacecraft crashes down right near him - interstellar drive disabled, but atmospheric engines just need a good kick and he's on his way. Someone bisects him with a glaive made of a sphere of annihilation? Wouldn't you know it, but all SoAs are actually an epic spell cast by an ancient god-wizard, they have a duration, and it just ran out this round.

    The mechanics are something like 'here, you have a handful of points per game. For 1 point, make anything possible happen of minor (e.g. not plot-breaking) importance. For 2 points, make anything impossible happen of minor importance, or anything possible and plot-breaking happen. For 4 points, make anything impossible and plot-breaking happen. Suffer a side-effect for a discount, and the GM can choose to veto this one (but not the others)'.
    Last edited by NichG; 2016-08-26 at 07:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    ???
    Donīt fool yourself. Just because a class can hold and swing a weapon, itīs not "martial". Any basic Cleric or Druid can do that. The power of the PrC you named comes from accessing spells and gaining synergy from that.

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    They mean that the thing that makes those things powerful isn't the martial side, but the casting side.
    Does it implying martial side somewhen somewhere actually made somebody powerful?
    I mean - except for the closest circle to the Spire in the Outlands

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    So to get a martial character up to Tier 1, they would have to have a solid answer for each of the following at any given time:
    • ethereal/incorporeal creatures
    • flying creatures
    • creatures with damage reduction
    • social encounters
    • skill challenges
    • mundane travel
    • planar travel
    • ally death
    • character death
    • surprise rounds
    • enemy armies
    • ally armies
    • debilitating effects
    • high-level single magicals/martials
    • low-level groups of magicals/martials
    • extraplanar creatures
    • probably some more things that I can't think of but someone else will
    Core 16th level druid. Is it a tier 1? Unquestionably.
    Ethereal/incorporeal creatures: No. Cant become ethereal. No specialized anti incorporeal effects. No force effects. Only better than a monk by virtue of Death Ward.
    Fliers: Yes.
    DR: moderate. Cant beat common DR types, but can bypass with some magical attacks. But see Below.
    Social Encounters: No. Having a skill on your skill list does not a T1 make. No helpful spells.
    Skill Challenges: No.
    Mundane Travel: Yes
    Planar Travel: No
    Ally Death: Yes
    Character Death (I assume this means virtual immortality/immunity to death via clone/astral projection/other): No
    Surprise Rounds: No
    Enemy Armies: Yes
    Ally Armies (This means making them?): Medium. Get a few nice tricks like Awaken, but nothing as good as Animate dead or planar binding.
    Debilitating Effects: Yes
    High level enemies or groups: Yes
    Extraplanar Creatures: No better than a muggle. Cant beat common DR. Best attack spells are SR yes. No specialized anti outsider spells or spells to prevent them from summoning or escaping. May struggle against things with multiple energy resistances and DR.

    I count 7 nos, 7 yeses, and a couple on the fence. I would add some other factors, some of which the core druid list cannot do. Like Immunity to Scrying: No. Immunity to mind control: Partial. The Druid can do it, with wildshape. But his Tier 1 spell list can't.

    Anyone with the versatility of the core druid spell list, or in other words who can reliably solve about half those T1 issues, is a T1.

    Now, I'll admit adding the SPC fixes about half of the problem areas and opening all sources fixes most of the rest. But the baseline of a tier is the least versatile guy in the tier. Which for T1 is core druid, unless you include spirit shaman as a T1, which is just druid with half your spells made useless by lack of wildshape and AC.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2016-08-26 at 07:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Does it implying martial side somewhen somewhere actually made somebody powerful?
    I mean - except for the closest circle to the Spire in the Outlands
    Maybe you didīt understand the (stupid) underlying core question: Itīs about being able to do what a T1 caster can do without resorting to spells.

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    I count 7 nos, 6 yeses, and a couple on the fence. I would add some other factors, some of which the core druid list cannot do. Like Immunity to Scrying: No. Immunity to mind control: Partial. The Druid can do it, with wildshape. But his Tier 1 spell list can't.
    I'd probably give more credit on some of the ones you're on the fence for, and would at least upgrade the incorporeal one to somewhere around medium (energy effects help, even if they're imperfect, and that plus the possibility of greater magic fang'd face beating doubles down on the approach count. Also, monks can't really interact with incorporeal at all) but I admittedly misinterpreted a couple of the things listed. Like character death, which, I dunno, maybe that's the thing you said. Not really sure how wild shape is granting immunity to mind control offhand. I think you need enhance to access plant traits, and elemental traits don't include that immunity. If wild shape did have that capability in core though, I'd definitely have it on the list of druid capabilities, for the reasons I'll mention below.
    Anyone with the versatility of the core druid spell list, or in other words who can reliably solve about half those T1 issues, is a T1.
    Two points. First, if you're only using core for the martial fellow, then that is approximately the metric that makes sense, but it seems weird to be adding all these arbitrary abilities and use such a metric. As I said, the list changes depending on what books you use, and it seems to me that a martial character should really be trying to measure up to, if not a full book list, then at least something broader than core only. Second, I definitely wouldn't only consider the spell list, and would absolutely add wild shape and the companion to the consideration of problem solving capabilities. I have a whole long speech associated with that claim, but the short version is that these class features, while they may on the surface seem meaningless to the druid's status as a tier one class, actually represent a number of critical spell effects that broaden versatility beyond what would be expected. The classic example is flight. Druid spells don't do all that well where flight is concerned, but that's fine, cause they basically get a buffed version of overland flight from various wild shape forms. It's an important ability, but it's not all that present on the druid's "spell list" until you consider wild shape.

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    Maybe you didīt understand the (stupid) underlying core question: Itīs about being able to do what a T1 caster can do without resorting to spells.
    Without using spells?
    Easy!
    There is Psionics.

    But without using magic?
    Please, tell me: what's even the point?

    Also, if everything magic do will be accessible without magic, then what will be the point of magic?

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Also, if everything magic do will be accessible without magic, then what will be the point of magic?
    Cause it's presumably doable in a different fashion, and this arbitrary martial class would be better at some things and worse at others in comparison to a caster. I mean, you essentially constructed this point yourself in this same post. What's the point of spells if everything those spells do is accessible without spells, specifically through psionics?

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    I'd probably give more credit on some of the ones you're on the fence for, and would at least upgrade the incorporeal one to somewhere around medium (energy effects help, even if they're imperfect, and that plus the possibility of greater magic fang'd face beating doubles down on the approach count. Also, monks can't really interact with incorporeal at all)
    If magic fanged face beating counts, having magical fists and a much higher touch AC than the bears has to help too.

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    but I admittedly misinterpreted a couple of the things listed. Like character death, which, I dunno, maybe that's the thing you said.
    Well, given that the one above it was "ally death" I figured if it was counted twice it had to mean something different than casting reincarnate on your buddy.

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    Not really sure how wild shape is granting immunity to mind control offhand. I think you need enhance to access plant traits, and elemental traits don't include that immunity.
    I'm not so foolish as to argue with you about wildshape works. I'm sure you're right. OK, we can shift that into the no category.

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    Two points. First, if you're only using core for the martial fellow, then that is approximately the metric that makes sense, but it seems weird to be adding all these arbitrary abilities and use such a metric. As I said, the list changes depending on what books you use, and it seems to me that a martial character should really be trying to measure up to, if not a full book list, then at least something broader than core only.
    But he doesn't actually have to equal Druid. He has to equal Tier 1ness. Where Tier 1ness is that range of flexibility that we see as characteristic of a Tier 1, higher than T2 or 3. A core druid has that range of flexibility. It is fully possible that a class could be more flexible than a core druid, less flexible than an open source druid, and lurk on the bottom of the T1 power scale in a game with lots of sources allowed. Unless we are redesigning the goalposts to say that druid is not T1 in core, the minimum versatility of T1ness can never be higher than the versatility of a core druid.

    To put it a different way, whenever a new supplement comes out, it may change how classes rank, but not where the tiers are. When I see PF human sorcerers with their additional 3 spells known per level, I don't think (Tier 2 got higher) I think (that makes them more resemble T1). When I look at the late 3.5 paladin boosts, like battle blessing, I don't think (tier 5 improved) I think (he moved towards T4).

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    Second, I definitely wouldn't only consider the spell list, and would absolutely add wild shape and the companion to the consideration of problem solving capabilities. I have a whole long speech associated with that claim, but the short version is that these class features, while they may on the surface seem meaningless to the druid's status as a tier one class, actually represent a number of critical spell effects that broaden versatility beyond what would be expected. The classic example is flight. Druid spells don't do all that well where flight is concerned, but that's fine, cause they basically get a buffed version of overland flight from various wild shape forms. It's an important ability, but it's not all that present on the druid's "spell list" until you consider wild shape.
    Well, I gave flight to the druid anyway. My biggest counter arguments to that are definitional:
    1. Many people consider Spirit Shaman to be T1. I think they are T3 (because they functionally can't access a big chunk of the druid spell versatility because of their casting mechanic/spells known progression) but not going there this thread.
    2. Look at the ACFs. Like the Shapeshifter, which is a straight up nerf. Or imagine Druid + any full casting PRC that doesn't advance WS or AC. We would all agree it was worse than base druid, but I think we would generally think of it as a T1 caster.

    In any of those 3 examples, I think that the consensus is that the Druid spell list is T1, so that would be the barrier to try to match. The result might be a little bit lower in its T1ness than druid. But I think if we put the core druid spell list/mechanic on a wizard chassis, it would be a T1, not a T3. To support that, look at binder, which gets to T2 pretty much solely on the strength of Summon Monster. SNA (in 3.5) is fully as good as SM, and the full druid list is certainly more flexible than any T3 on its own.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2016-08-26 at 09:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Without using spells?
    Easy!

    Also, if everything magic do will be accessible without magic, then what will be the point of magic?
    If "Martial" is peak performance, then "Magic" is "Niche and Different, ""What martial canīt do"".

    If you want, take the "Kung-Fu Panda"-Series as inspiration: Po does his stuff and doesnīt need "magic" to do it.

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    That's fair. But "refluffed magic" doesn't have quite as much punch to it as "refluffed spellcasting", now does it? "It's just refluffed spells" was being used to dismiss abilities that would follow different game mechanics than spellcasting, so declaring them mechanically identical to spellcasting and then using that to say that the proposed abilities might as well not exist at all is faulty reasoning.
    It's not the mechanics that are the issue here; you could make Ex/Na versions of any spell effect you wanted and stick them onto a martial chassis for your ExFighter - Ex Resurrection, Ex Planar Travel, Ex Domination, Ex Incorporeality etc. The problem rather is the suspension of disbelief needed for the mainstream to accept these non-magic magic abilities.

    Or as Tippy so elegantly put it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    "skill of such an extreme bull**** tier that reality itself is persuaded to realize your desires"
    There are ways to nudge D&D in this direction if that is what the playgroup desires - things like Mythic and Stamina - but they are always variants, and tightly controlled, for a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    If a system is designed with the idea in mind that magic should have broader and better capabilities than not-magic, then a "tier 1 martial" is impossible.
    I have yet to be shown why a T1 martial is necessary for a system to have. You don't roll a fighter or barbarian to interact with every single nuance of the game system - you do it because you want to crack skulls, and they do that. If I wanted a T1 caster's toolbox, I'd be one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    This leaves untouched a particularly glaring issue with classes like the fighter; namely, they have no real way to interact with the story beyond rolling dice at the meatbags set in front of them by the DM. Martial characters, even very good ones, are playing a rail-shooter, while the wizard is playing Morrowind.
    And what is the rogue playing? There are in fact martials built for those who want to interact more with the system, but it's important to have streamlined ones as well. And in PF, both Fighters and Barbarians can broaden their methods of interaction if they wish - doing more than just full-attacking, or more even than just combat actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies View Post
    Another issue with trying to use differences in resource limitations as a primary balancing factor is that how limited a certain resource is will vary from one game to the next. If a system is designed with the assumption that characters will face X encounters each day and that wizards will use an average of 3 spells per encounter, then players who (due to their personal playstyle) average more than 3 spells in each encounter (or who average 3 per encounter on days with more than X encounters) will run out of spells and have nothing to do for the rest of the day, and players who (again, due to playstyle) average less than 3 spells in each encounter will underperform because they are not using as much of their power as the game expects them to. Being useless some of the time is not fun, nor is being not particularly useful all of the time.

    There are ways around this (e.g. Psions getting a certain number of temporary power points per encounter, along with a small pool for any powers they want to use outside of combat, with the fluff being that the extra temporary PP are their mind responding to the pressure of combat), but they generally require abandoning some or all of the limited-resource structure.
    These are solvable - just empower the GM to adjust resources to match their party's playstyle. Maybe they run a variant that bans bonus spells if they're running fewer encounters than normal, or they cause the adventuring day ot be spread over multiple sessions. And if they're doing extra encounters beyond the suggested number, add an optional recovery mechanic or extra spells. Either way, the martials should be at-will or otherwise unconstrained by daily/hourly limits.

    And no, I don't see tweaking limits and "abandoning" them to be equivalent at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Psyren, at the relevant level, weīre talking story and not individual action. Thatīs why Fate Core works with "T1 Mundane" while D20 does not.

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    Default Re: Tier One Martials: A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    Psyren, at the relevant level, weīre talking story and not individual action. Thatīs why Fate Core works with "T1 Mundane" while D20 does not.
    I'm not familiar with Fate so you'll have to elaborate on what you mean by "story vs. individual action" as well as which level you're talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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