Questions on Sorcerous Blade Channeling feat...

[samcifer]

The feat reads: "When you use any ranged sorcerer attack powered, you can use the power as a melee attack. If you do so, the power's range equals your melee reach."

My questions are:

1. If you use the power as a melee attack, do you add the weapon proficiency bonus instead of the implement bonus(es including feats) and can you add weapon attack feats like Light Blade Expertise instead?

2. Do you roll weapon damage dice instead of the attack power die rolls, such as roll 2d6 becomes 2W?

[vasharanpaladin]

1. No. It changes the range to the the reach of your weapon. It does not grant the Weapon keyword.

2. No. Even if it did grant the Weapon keyword, the power always tells you what to roll for damage.

And before anyone has a chance to ask, NO, it does not allow you to use those sorcerer powers that count as ranged basic attacks as melee basic attacks.

[samcifer]

So does it work on bursts, or only single-target ranged spells?

[vasharanpaladin]

No. Burst spells are never Ranged.

[masteraleph]

It can work on multi-target ranged spells (Chains of Fire, for example, which targets One or Two Creatures), but if you want to attack more than one power, they need to be in melee ranged.

It's basically meant to allow you to use ranged powers while adjacent to an enemy without drawing OAs. It's obviated by either Staff Expertise or Shimmering Armor, both of which came out after PHB2. There are a few other reasons you might want to make a melee attack instead of a ranged ones, but not many.

[Kurald Galain]

And before anyone has a chance to ask, NO, it does not allow you to use those sorcerer powers that count as ranged basic attacks as melee basic attacks.

Well, actually that's the topic of a lot of heavy debate.

Basically, ask your DM this one. If he says yes, this is a great feat, especially if you have an attack-granting leader in the party. If he says no, the feat is basically obsolete, as Aleph points out.

[Yakk]

The question is, is a "Melee Basic Attack" a "Basic Attack" that is "Melee", or is a "Melee Basic Attack" just a kind of "Basic Attack" that happens to have the word "Melee" in it.

If the first, then a "Ranged Basic Attack" power that becomes melee becomes a "Melee Basic Attack". If the second, then it becomes a "Ranged Basic Attack" and a "Basic Attack" that you can use as a Melee power, but not a "Melee Basic Attack".

The ability to use RBA attacks as MBAs mostly gives you OAs. As far as I can tell, the optimization you get from the RBA as MBA cheese isn't all that strong, so it isn't really harmful to allow it.

[samcifer]

I set him up with the at-will Ensorcelled Blade, which can be used as a MBA, so if that's the case, it can be used for OAs, right?

[Inevitability]

I set him up with the at-will Ensorcelled Blade, which can be used as a MBA, so if that's the case, it can be used for OAs, right?

If it's a MBA, then you can use it for OA's.

[samcifer]

Good, it's better than my cha-focused rogue, who lacks a decent mba. It's the one thing I hate about that type of build.

[MwaO]

Good, it's better than my cha-focused rogue, who lacks a decent mba. It's the one thing I hate about that type of build.

Melee Training usually isn't that expensive and you can usually hold off on it due to Rogue's really high to-hit chance, even with a 10 vs 20 starting stat. Assuming you take Cunning Stalker+Light Blade Expertise for your first 2 feat choices, that's a base of +7 with a dagger. That's not great, but that's exactly where the guy with a starting stat of 18, a +2 proficiency weapon, and an expertise feat is.

Or why +2 proficiency weapons almost always are a really, really, really bad choice...

[samcifer]

Melee Training usually isn't that expensive and you can usually hold off on it due to Rogue's really high to-hit chance, even with a 10 vs 20 starting stat. Assuming you take Cunning Stalker+Light Blade Expertise for your first 2 feat choices, that's a base of +7 with a dagger. That's not great, but that's exactly where the guy with a starting stat of 18, a +2 proficiency weapon, and an expertise feat is.

Or why +2 proficiency weapons almost always are a really, really, really bad choice...

My lvl. 5 rogue is +12 to hit with MBA not counting CA with the Nimble Blade feat.

[MwaO]

My lvl. 5 rogue is +12 to hit with MBA not counting CA with the Nimble Blade feat.

Right. So subtract 4 and you're at +8 to hit as a starting value, or 18 stat and +3 prof and +1 expertise. You're not bad at MBAs, you're just not Rogue-at-will quality with MBAs.

[samcifer]

Melee Training usually isn't that expensive and you can usually hold off on it due to Rogue's really high to-hit chance, even with a 10 vs 20 starting stat. Assuming you take Cunning Stalker+Light Blade Expertise for your first 2 feat choices, that's a base of +7 with a dagger. That's not great, but that's exactly where the guy with a starting stat of 18, a +2 proficiency weapon, and an expertise feat is.

Or why +2 proficiency weapons almost always are a really, really, really bad choice...

Yeah, I went with Dexterity Melee Training on my rogue. true, I'm losing 3 damage, but the accuracy is more important and MBAs that miss always do zero damage, so I'll sacrifice a bit of damage on the occasional OA in favor of increasing the chance to hit at all. I use +2 Magic daggers for my weaponry, so with Rogue Weapon Talent, it's an extra +2 to hit over most weapons. :)

[Yakk]

The cost isn't the damage on the MBA, that is small.

The cost is the feat, which could make *all* your attacks stronger with a good choice.

[samcifer]

The cost isn't the damage on the MBA, that is small.

The cost is the feat, which could make *all* your attacks stronger with a good choice.

Such as? I already have as high an accuracy as I can get. MT - Dexterity addresses the one attack weakness I had in low accuracy for OAs, what with having low strength (I'm playing an Artful Dodger Satyr Scoundrel, so Charisma is my secondary stat and Strength along with Intelligence as a dump stat). The only other feat I could think of using that would provide benefits multiple times over an encounter is Weapon Focus and the +1 damage isn't worth wasting a feat on.

[MwaO]

Such as? I already have as high an accuracy as I can get. MT - Dexterity addresses the one attack weakness I had in low accuracy for OAs, what with having low strength (I'm playing an Artful Dodger Satyr Scoundrel, so Charisma is my secondary stat and Strength along with Intelligence as a dump stat). The only other feat I could think of using that would provide benefits multiple times over an encounter is Weapon Focus and the +1 damage isn't worth wasting a feat on.

There are a number of options:
Multiclass feats. Maybe multiple. Monastic Disciple
More multiclass feats - Monk power swap for Quicksilver Motion. Sorcerer for Flame Spiral.
Backstabber - extra damage
Silvery Glow - extra damage with either cold or radiant = +2
Improved Defenses/Superior Will/Superior Reflexes(1 or 2 of them)
Improved Initiative - go first. Always go first.

[Yakk]

Suppose you OA once every 2 encounters.

Effect of feat approximation: your OA goes from 15 damage with 75% accuracy to 17 damage with 50% accuracy. So .75 * 15 - 17*.5 = 2.75 damage per OA, or 1.375 damage/encounter.

With a baseline 80% accuracy, and 1.2 attacks/round, +1 to hit on an attack deals +0.96 damage/round. At 3 rounds/encounter that is 2.88 damage/encounter.

Or over twice as good.

Now this depends on your DM. A DM that provokes 2-3 OA's per encounter per player and does so when you have CA might change this calculus.

But Weapon Focus is a medium-strength feat choice (I use it as my baseline: if a feat is worse than Weapon Focus, it isn't worth considering as a combat feat. A level 30 character all of whose feats are Weapon Focus or better is actually an acceptably damaging character, dealing 100+ damage on an at-will hit!). There are usually stronger feats than weapon focus.

[samcifer]

Suppose you OA once every 2 encounters.

Effect of feat approximation: your OA goes from 15 damage with 75% accuracy to 17 damage with 50% accuracy. So .75 * 15 - 17*.5 = 2.75 damage per OA, or 1.375 damage/encounter.

With a baseline 80% accuracy, and 1.2 attacks/round, +1 to hit on an attack deals +0.96 damage/round. At 3 rounds/encounter that is 2.88 damage/encounter.

Or over twice as good.

Now this depends on your DM. A DM that provokes 2-3 OA's per encounter per player and does so when you have CA might change this calculus.

But Weapon Focus is a medium-strength feat choice (I use it as my baseline: if a feat is worse than Weapon Focus, it isn't worth considering as a combat feat. A level 30 character all of whose feats are Weapon Focus or better is actually an acceptably damaging character, dealing 100+ damage on an at-will hit!). There are usually stronger feats than weapon focus.

Well, I wanted something that would be useful and not a once-per-encounter type of thing like Monastic Disciple, which only lets me choose FoB powers that only work with my weaker stats and is therefor a less desirable choice in addition to being only once per encounter.

I suppose I could go with Far Throw instead for the extra range for my daggers and shuriken. I have Sly Flourish with high Charisma modifier, so I have at least one good damaging power I can use as much as I want that can be either melee or ranged, so I had thought of addressing a noticeable weakness my character had, which was low accuracy on OAs by taking MT - Dexterity.

For more info on its usability, my group consists of a Barbarian, a Fighter, a Cleric and my rogue, so the DM has told me that he will keep the melee-focused group combat style in mind when structuring battles so we aren't unfairly overpowered by ranged groups we can't get to easily to attack.

[MwaO]

Well, I wanted something that would be useful and not a once-per-encounter type of thing like Monastic Disciple, which only lets me choose FoB powers that only work with my weaker stats and is therefor a less desirable choice in addition to being only once per encounter.

Monastic Disciple works with Desert Wind Flurry of Blows, which is Cha-based. The rule is pick a FoB - CB just chooses from the initial choices, which is a bug and never fixed. That's 2+Cha damage+shift, which is comparable to WF, but front-loaded and grants movement.

[samcifer]

Monastic Disciple works with Desert Wind Flurry of Blows, which is Cha-based. The rule is pick a FoB - CB just chooses from the initial choices, which is a bug and never fixed. That's 2+Cha damage+shift, which is comparable to WF, but front-loaded and grants movement.

Makes me mad that they never fixed it. But still, DW FoB is still only once per encounter, and I'm looking for something that could apply at least a few times during every encounter.

[MwaO]

Makes me mad that they never fixed it. But still, DW FoB is still only once per encounter, and I'm looking for something that could apply at least a few times during every encounter.

The powerhouse feat is Resourceful Leader. MC Warlord, gain a skill, and do, in a party of 5 about 2*3(or 5 or 7)*8/3 and/or grant some temps per encounter.

i.e. assuming that fellow PCs use an attack that targets two opponents on an AP, they'll do an extra +3/5/7 damage. Because there are 4 PCs who spend 2 action points per 3 combats, that's where the 8/3 comes from.

i.e. +16/27/37 damage on average per combat assuming hits...

[Yakk]

Dealing 10 damage on a hit 1/encounter helps the entire encounter.

Because dead is the best status condition, and a foe dead earlier makes the rest of the encounter easier.

---

For the OP, they have 3 allies. At 2 AP/3 encounters that is 3*2/3 = 2 ally AP/encounter.

If their AP power only swings once per AP, and hit 60% of the time, that is .6*2*3 = 3.6 damage/encounter and 2.4 temporary HP/encounter. If they work harder at it (use AOE attacks, use multi-tap attacks, etc) it explodes in effectiveness.

What more, it focuses its power when your allies are focusing power, so in harder fights and at more important moments.

A fun part of it is you can sink more feats into boosting your allies AP. Bravura Leader adds another +4/6/8 (at a cost of granting CA). They stack. And +7 damage on a 3+ tap power (say, Rain of Blows) is an insane amount of damage boost.

It scales reasonably well, becoming +15 damage per tap at epic. On a 4 swing power (barbarians have this) this is +60 damage. Not bad for 2 out of your ~17 feats.

[samcifer]

Another issue to note is that we get together rarely. We had a 2 year break in playing when the DM's wife had a baby and since then, we've only gotten two sessions in the last 2 months with no idea when the next session will be, so leveling up will be incredibly slow. Because of that, I focus on the present, rather than what I'll go for when I hit the next level, which could very well take up to a year to reach.

[Bigfolks]

So does it work on bursts, or only single-target ranged spells?

Yes it does if it’s a range burst which will be in the spell description in 4e

[Bigfolks]

No. Burst spells are never Ranged.

Yes they are in 4e

[flat_footed]

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