Core rogue +

[smcmike]

Hey, I'm making a character for a campaign I'm joining. I hear they need a rogue, so I'll want to put some levels there, but I want to cast spells too. What's a good build focusing on the PHB to do this? Starting level 5.

[Gallowglass]

Bard 5*

*based on the assumption when they say they "need a rogue" they mean "need a skillmonkey" because there really is no need for rogue outside of that.

[Telonius]

Rogue(1 or 2)/Cleric of Olidammara(18 or 19) can be nice. For a more arcane (though less powerful) build, Rogue3/Wizard5/Arcane TricksterX is pretty much made for this.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Rogue 1 or scout 1/arcane caster* 4/Unseen Seer X is pretty classic. You have a serious problem with skill points at levels 2-5, but once US levels come online, you're good.

Another good option is artificer or beguiler, taken straight.


*Wizard, beguiler, sorcerer, wu jen, bard: they all work, but being int-based (and full casting) is best. If you're going beguiler, you might as well drop the rogue/US levels, and bards should probably focus on their music. If you're going wizard, you might as well take wizard 5, for Spontaneous Divination.

[Inevitability]

Bard 5*

*based on the assumption when they say they "need a rogue" they mean "need a skillmonkey" because there really is no need for rogue outside of that.

Traps may be a problem if you only have 2nd-level spells and no trapfinding or disable device. Perhaps dip a level in rogue?

Alternatively, be a cleric with the trickery domain (for skills) and either the kobold domain if you can convince your DM to allow it or the Find Traps spell.

[BowStreetRunner]

Well, it really depends on how much you need to focus on the PHB. As you can see by the posts above, most of the playground is quick to jump into other sources. What you will find is that the things that are likely to allow you to play the core classes in the way you want are often supplemental material published in other books. Just how restricted are you in terms of sources?

[smcmike]

Well, it really depends on how much you need to focus on the PHB. As you can see by the posts above, most of the playground is quick to jump into other sources. What you will find is that the things that are likely to allow you to play the core classes in the way you want are often supplemental material published in other books. Just how restricted are you in terms of sources?

I don't know - I want to see what everyone else is doing. No one mentioned playing any non-PHB class, and if they are sticking pure core, I'm not going to try to go outside it (even if I probably could).

[Telonius]

One other question that's pretty important (though almost always ignored on the boards): Is your DM playing with Multiclass XP penalties? It's probably one of the most common houserules for DMs to completely ignore multiclass penalties, but if they're being a stickler about PHB-only, it could be an issue.

[BowStreetRunner]

I don't know - I want to see what everyone else is doing. No one mentioned playing any non-PHB class, and if they are sticking pure core, I'm not going to try to go outside it (even if I probably could).

So it sounds like scout, unseen seer, artificer, beguiler, and even the kobold domain are out.

Bard makes a good skillmonkey with spellcasting support, but lacks trapfinding and disable device if that is what the party is looking for.

Rogue/Cleric of Olidamarra still suffers from progression of the disable device skill and many of the good skill-monkey supporting spells are in splat books. Even the trickery domain doesn't help here.

Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster actually looks like your most workable combination so far.

Oh, and I'll put a plug in for Rogue 5/Assassin 10/Dragon Disciple 5 as long as I'm at it.

[smcmike]

Thanks everyone.

I mostly want to be able to handle traps and stuff. I rolled stats, and am working with two good scores and two terrible ones (17, 17, 13, 11, 9, 7) which limits the build to no MAD - I'm thinking arcane trickster, with pure dex and intelligence.

What feats are helpful early on? I'm guessing I'll be trying to sneak attack with rays?

[Extra Anchovies]

Rogue/Wizard doesn't have much in the way of hit points or defenses (at least early on), so staying at range is probably best. I recommend mostly using flasks of acid and alchemist's fire, and saving most of your spells for noncombat utility.

If you want to keep your Rogue skills close to maxed as you approach Arcane Trickster, Rogue 1/Wizard 2/Rogue +1/Wizard +2/Rogue +1/Wizard +1/Arcane Trickster works well for a build order.

For ability scores, I recommend the following.
Strength 7
Dexterity 17
Constitution 13
Intelligence 17
Wisdom 11
Charisma 9

[BowStreetRunner]

Thanks everyone.

I mostly want to be able to handle traps and stuff. I rolled stats, and am working with two good scores and two terrible ones (17, 17, 13, 11, 9, 7) which limits the build to no MAD - I'm thinking arcane trickster, with pure dex and intelligence.

What feats are helpful early on? I'm guessing I'll be trying to sneak attack with rays?

Interesting stat rolls. I'm tempted to suggest Gray Elf for your race here, just because 19 DEX and 19 INT. Although the hit to CON and STR might be a bit much depending on your build.

Silent Spell may be useful or any casting you do prior to making your attacks. Quicken Spell to get off that second spell in a round.

[Psyren]

Assuming core only, you want Bard, or possibly Rogue/Wizard/AT.

Non-core, your options open up considerably, so that should be the first thing you find out.

[ace rooster]

At level 5 you are not into prestige classes, so you could easily see PHB classes only despite more being in. Worth checking.

What level of op are you expecting? I'm assuming fairly low if they said "we need a rogue", so in my mind the priority should be fun to play (for the other players and DM as well as you), rather than absolute power.

If you are wanting something that plays very differently, maybe try a pixie rogue. You would only be level 1 at ECL5, but +6 int nets you a disable device score only one lower. DR, SR, great dex, and invisibility mean you are not even particularly easy to kill. You don't get much in the way of combat ending offensive options, but greater invisibility at least grants fairly reliable sneak attacks. In many combats you will be readying shots at casters or using illusions as decoys, rather than getting any 'glory'. A CL8 dispel is not to be ignored at level 5 though. You get detect *just about everything* as spell like abilities, flight, invisibility, and racial bonuses to spot and wisdom, so you make a great scout. You still get tons of skill points, as well as a bonus to most abilities, so your skill checks are all going to be good.

You can focus rogue entirely, and rely on UMD for casting. If you put one of those 17s in cha you can get a UMD of 20 if you really wanted to focus. A rogue with a wand of vampiric touch is interesting, because of the specific wording of the spell. It gives you "damage you deal", meaning you get sneak attack damage as health (run past DM first. Really nice on swift ambusher builds or lance weilding spellswords). Multiclassing will mean you are not great at either side, with both delayed sneak attack and spellcasting. Arcane trickster also nerfs your BAB to poor, meaning that you really have to rely on touch attacks to hit, taxing your casting further.

It only comes online level 6, but building towards druid rogue could be fun. Flame blade gives you a weapon to use for touch attacks, but as another option, leopard wild shape gives you multiple sneak attacks from a pounce, while eagle gives you flight and +8 spot instead of pounce, and bear gives you good str for attacks.

None of these are particularly OP, but hopefully give you some ideas. It is probably better if you throw us some ideas about what you want from the character before a specific build will really jump out. It could be that the party has really crappy spot checks, and the party wants a scout, as well as trapfinding, or it could be that an extra damage dealer is needed. Builds for one are not always like the other. A bard is a good party face, but doesn't fit either of those niches.

[Eladrinblade]

Hey, I'm making a character for a campaign I'm joining. I hear they need a rogue, so I'll want to put some levels there, but I want to cast spells too. What's a good build focusing on the PHB to do this? Starting level 5.

If they "need a rogue", that means they need a traps/locks guy. I would go rogue 3/illusionist 5/arcane trickster x, spacing out those rogue levels among the illusionist ones so you can keep your important skills maxed.