Overwatch: Nerf This (Thread)

[AgentPaper]

A_Seagull demonstrating proper technique.

Yeah, that's a good example of how to use her orbs. The key is to realize that the slow speed of her orbs can be a strength as well as a weakness. Rather than trying to use them like normal projectiles, aiming them at a target that you know you can hit, you should instead be firing them relatively blindly down lanes that you know that the enemy wants to traverse. By doing so, you prevent them from being able to use those lanes as freely as they normally would be able to, having to stop and wait for an orb to pass, or move out of it when they'd rather be staying in there shooting. Or you hit them and deal a hefty chunk of damage, which is also good.

Would her alt-fire be better if the projectiles moved as fast as most others? Probably. But ignoring how useful they can be because they could potentially be better is simply foolish.

[Psyren]

Even he admits that she's the worst character in the game though.

She's the only character in the game without a meaningful E ability so I'd agree, she gets that title by default. But the earlier "scientific notation" hyperbole has been shown to be just that.

[Keltest]

She's the only character in the game without a meaningful E ability so I'd agree, she gets that title by default. But the earlier "scientific notation" hyperbole has been shown to be just that.

well, D.Va doesn't even have an E anymore. It was folded into her alt fire. So that's a poor standard as well.

[The_Jackal]

Yeah, that's a good example of how to use her orbs. The key is to realize that the slow speed of her orbs can be a strength as well as a weakness. Rather than trying to use them like normal projectiles, aiming them at a target that you know you can hit, you should instead be firing them relatively blindly down lanes that you know that the enemy wants to traverse. By doing so, you prevent them from being able to use those lanes as freely as they normally would be able to, having to stop and wait for an orb to pass, or move out of it when they'd rather be staying in there shooting. Or you hit them and deal a hefty chunk of damage, which is also good.

Would her alt-fire be better if the projectiles moved as fast as most others? Probably. But ignoring how useful they can be because they could potentially be better is simply foolish.

Yeah, that's a good example of how to use her orbs. The key is to realize that the slow speed of her orbs can be a strength as well as a weakness. Rather than trying to use them like normal projectiles, aiming them at a target that you know you can hit, you should instead be firing them relatively blindly down lanes that you know that the enemy wants to traverse. By doing so, you prevent them from being able to use those lanes as freely as they normally would be able to, having to stop and wait for an orb to pass, or move out of it when they'd rather be staying in there shooting. Or you hit them and deal a hefty chunk of damage, which is also good.

Would her alt-fire be better if the projectiles moved as fast as most others? Probably. But ignoring how useful they can be because they could potentially be better is simply foolish.

Nobody's arguing that not shooting her alt-fire is better than shooting it. Her problem is that her alt-fire is terrible, easy to avoid, and basically requires a corridor to leverage into any kind of a threat. Yes, Seagull got a lot of damage done in that fight, but it wasn't his alt fire doing it, it was his outstanding turret placement and his excellent teammates who held their defensive line and avoided dying stupid, so they couldn't just blow in through the choke, hose down her mini turrets, and kill everybody. His turret placement was excellent, but the opposition didn't coordinate AT ALL, trickling through different entrances throughout the game, half the team staying back and poking instead of supporting their teammates.

Seagull's technique and map awareness is definitely good, but you're joking if you think he couldn't have done as well or better on a different Hero. IMO, that video is just a demonstration of the conditions in which Symmetra gets here win rate: Holding a tight chokepoint versus uncoordinated pugs who feed themselves into the slaughterhouse.

[Keltest]

Nobody's arguing that not shooting her alt-fire is better than shooting it. Her problem is that her alt-fire is terrible, easy to avoid, and basically requires a corridor to leverage into any kind of a threat. Yes, Seagull got a lot of damage done in that fight, but it wasn't his alt fire doing it, it was his outstanding turret placement and his excellent teammates who held their defensive line and avoided dying stupid, so they couldn't just blow in through the choke, hose down her mini turrets, and kill everybody. His turret placement was excellent, but the opposition didn't coordinate AT ALL, trickling through different entrances throughout the game, half the team staying back and poking instead of supporting their teammates.

Seagull's technique and map awareness is definitely good, but you're joking if you think he couldn't have done as well or better on a different Hero. IMO, that video is just a demonstration of the conditions in which Symmetra gets here win rate: Holding a tight chokepoint versus uncoordinated pugs who feed themselves into the slaughterhouse.

Except another hero doesn't bring the teleporter, which is absolutely massive. Symmetra is a niche hero, agreed, but within that niche she performs really, really well. If she didn't, you wouldn't see her at all. Another hero might be able to do the job that her alt fire does better, but the alt-fire is just a side benefit of picking her, because youre after the teleporter.

[Landis963]

Except another hero doesn't bring the teleporter, which is absolutely massive. Symmetra is a niche hero, agreed, but within that niche she performs really, really well. If she didn't, you wouldn't see her at all. Another hero might be able to do the job that her alt fire does better, but the alt-fire is just a side benefit of picking her, because youre after the teleporter.

Another side benefit of picking Symmetra: pseudo-vision on the flank points (another reason why she's picked so often for Assault point A and then quickly dropped otherwise). I got favorable comments for my Symmetra performance during a Quick play match because I didn't try and pack all my turrets into one room on Volskaya. Of course, such "vision" is useless without communicating it to the rest of the team.

[Psyren]

well, D.Va doesn't even have an E anymore. It was folded into her alt fire. So that's a poor standard as well.

I wouldn't complain if she got one either actually. She doesn't really need one, sure, but I'm against unused buttons in general.

Seagull's technique and map awareness is definitely good, but you're joking if you think he couldn't have done as well or better on a different Hero. IMO, that video is just a demonstration of the conditions in which Symmetra gets here win rate: Holding a tight chokepoint versus uncoordinated pugs who feed themselves into the slaughterhouse.

A random pug at Seagull's level would likely cream most of us. He was playing solo there, and Competitive to boot.

"He could have done better on a different hero" misses the point. The assertion made in this thread is that people never saw the orbs hit or used as a zoning tool in a high-level match. Seagull did both, so I linked it. (He also has Mei videos for that set of naysayers.) A futile effort most likely, but maybe someone lurking will appreciate the visual aid instead.

[Anteros]

She's the only character in the game without a meaningful E ability so I'd agree, she gets that title by default. But the earlier "scientific notation" hyperbole has been shown to be just that.

Because of one example of a pro player being not completely useless on her against random pubs? You're being silly.

[Manticoran]

Because of one example of a pro player being not completely useless on her against random pubs? You're being silly.

...Except she's CLEARLY usable. If she's still usable at Seagull's level, unless you think any of us are better than Seagull, it follows that she is usable at our level as well, as it's not like there's a whole lot of "Aim perfectly at all times" that McCree has or anything in her kit.

We're not arguing that we're going to see her in a bunch of pro games. But holy crap she's *fine* at the very least at games below Seagull's level(And there isn't much above Seagull's level at this point).

[Psyren]

...Except she's CLEARLY usable. If she's still usable at Seagull's level, unless you think any of us are better than Seagull, it follows that she is usable at our level as well, as it's not like there's a whole lot of "Aim perfectly at all times" that McCree has or anything in her kit.

We're not arguing that we're going to see her in a bunch of pro games. But holy crap she's *fine* at the very least at games below Seagull's level(And there isn't much above Seagull's level at this point).

All of this.

Because of one example of a pro player being not completely useless on her against random pubs? You're being silly.

If I may use vernacular here - "no, u."

[The_Jackal]

...Except she's CLEARLY usable. If she's still usable at Seagull's level, unless you think any of us are better than Seagull, it follows that she is usable at our level as well, as it's not like there's a whole lot of "Aim perfectly at all times" that McCree has or anything in her kit.

We're not arguing that we're going to see her in a bunch of pro games. But holy crap she's *fine* at the very least at games below Seagull's level(And there isn't much above Seagull's level at this point).

Ah, the 'expert interface' argument. Well, it's specious. The whole purpose of the MMR is to match you with players of your approximate skill level, so the notion of a pro-level players farming random puggers is an outlier most players will not experience. Yes, Symmetra's ample weaknesses can be somewhat mitigated with good turret placement, and there's no question that her ultimate can be fiendishly useful in the right circumstances, but my assertion still stands: Symmetra is not a character you can take control of a game with. It's a character whose performance is the MOST dependent on your teammates and your opponents. The teleporter is the purest expression of this: If your teammates using the teleporter can't get a kill, all your ult is doing is charging enemy ults faster. Turrets require teammates in position to exploit the distraction, so that if they focus on turret cleanout, they're taking unopposed fire from your team. Orbs are good only for zoning, hitting someone is largely a matter of blind luck. Even her left-click is dependent on the opposing team not running afoul of a Reaper or D.va turning her face into meat. Her strength is fundamentally dependent on the opponents' weakness.

[Psyren]

Ah, the 'expert interface' argument. Well, it's specious. The whole purpose of the MMR is to match you with players of your approximate skill level, so the notion of a pro-level players farming random puggers is an outlier most players will not experience.

The point is that "random puggers" at Seagull's level are still likely to be more dangerous than the same at our level, defanging your dismissal of them. Yes, there are outlier cases where he will get matched opposite weaker people that have no business playing against him, but he had no way of knowing whether that would be the case when he picked her, and did so anyway.

Again, for the record, I wouldn't object to Symmetra buffs at all. I think there's room for improvement, particularly where her E is concerned. But I also find hyperbole as laughable and worthy of ignoring as Seagull himself does at the beginning of the video when people were literally telling him they were offended that he picked her in a Competitive match.

Yes, Symmetra's ample weaknesses can be somewhat mitigated with good turret placement, and there's no question that her ultimate can be fiendishly useful in the right circumstances, but my assertion still stands: Symmetra is not a character you can take control of a game with. It's a character whose performance is the MOST dependent on your teammates and your opponents. The teleporter is the purest expression of this: If your teammates using the teleporter can't get a kill, all your ult is doing is charging enemy ults faster. Turrets require teammates in position to exploit the distraction, so that if they focus on turret cleanout, they're taking unopposed fire from your team. Orbs are good only for zoning, hitting someone is largely a matter of blind luck. Even her left-click is dependent on the opposing team not running afoul of a Reaper or D.va turning her face into meat. Her strength is fundamentally dependent on the opponents' weakness.

What you're describing - a support that relies on good teammates to do well - is a feature, not a bug. Not at all trying not to be snarky here, but that is what "support" means Mercy can't carry a bad team (one that spreads out, overextends, and otherwise fails to protect her) either, though at least her ult is useful on Objective B. Healing and Rezzing a bad team also does little more than charge enemy ults.

"Orbs are good only for zoning" - you say that like it's somehow a bad thing, but when one team's job is to run out the clock, zoning and stalling are useful strategies too. And when the enemy ignores them and charges in anyway (particularly when they think they're safely behind their advancing Reinhardt) we saw exactly what happened in the video, where SG charged his teleporter mere seconds after the match began.

"Turrets require teammates in position" - Of course they do, and chokepoints exist to naturally encourage that. Seagull used his to help lock down the flanks very close to his team so that they could focus on the main choke.

[thracian]

Am I reading the League of Legends forum from 2012? These arguments are all exactly the same.

[The_Jackal]

Am I reading the League of Legends forum from 2012? These arguments are all exactly the same.

It's almost as if Overwatch has many archetypes and mechanics inspired by MOBAs.

The point is that "random puggers" at Seagull's level are still likely to be more dangerous than the same at our level, defanging your dismissal of them. Yes, there are outlier cases where he will get matched opposite weaker people that have no business playing against him, but he had no way of knowing whether that would be the case when he picked her, and did so anyway.

Not according to how they were ranked. It shows everyone's competitive rank at the outset of play. So if they WERE on Seagull's level, they either had a bad run of luck in the placement matches, or they'd been tanking their MMR for reasons passing understanding.

Again, for the record, I wouldn't object to Symmetra buffs at all. I think there's room for improvement, particularly where her E is concerned. But I also find hyperbole as laughable and worthy of ignoring as Seagull himself does at the beginning of the video when people were literally telling him they were offended that he picked her in a Competitive match.

I'm not engaging in any hyperbole. I've already expounded amply on her strengths. My objection to her has less to do with her power and effectiveness, and more to do with the inflexibility and reactivity in her kit, and even in the Seagull video, you can see instances where he's hampered by her feebleness, in particular where she sees the Tracer flanker and laughably starts lobbing orbs in the general direction of where she might come, because of the EXACT PROBLEM I'M COMPLAINING ABOUT.

What you're describing - a support that relies on good teammates to do well - is a feature, not a bug. Not at all trying not to be snarky here, but that is what "support" means Mercy can't carry a bad team (one that spreads out, overextends, and otherwise fails to protect her) either, though at least her ult is useful on Objective B. Healing and Rezzing a bad team also does little more than charge enemy ults.

The problem, I suspect, is in your adherence to the Blizzard thesis that just because she's categorized with the other supports, that she is one. Much in the same way that Roadhog is not a tank, in spite of being in the tank category, Symmetra is a support only in name. She's a defense hero. She's got far more in common with Torbjorn than she does with Mercy or Lucio. I will concede that good communication with her team will make her Sentry turrets more useful for providing situational awareness, but in my opinion, that's not good enough, and her current residence in the basement of the meta reinforces my assessment, not yours.

"Orbs are good only for zoning" - you say that like it's somehow a bad thing, but when one team's job is to run out the clock, zoning and stalling are useful strategies too. And when the enemy ignores them and charges in anyway (particularly when they think they're safely behind their advancing Reinhardt) we saw exactly what happened in the video, where SG charged his teleporter mere seconds after the match began.

It IS a bad thing, when compared to literally anyone else's fire mode which can accomplish the same thing, as well as possibly prevail in battle on an open map. Even Junkrat's grenades can, through sheer volume of fire and good prediction, hit an aware target in an open affray. Anyone can spam fire down a hallway in hopes that someone will run into it.

"Turrets require teammates in position" - Of course they do, and chokepoints exist to naturally encourage that. Seagull used his to help lock down the flanks very close to his team so that they could focus on the main choke.

Look, I'm not trying to argue that any Hero is an island to themself, I'm just offering that Symmetra's kit is not very powerful, relatively easy to counter/circumvent, and these factors account for her non-existent pick rate in the tournament scene. She's good because your opponents are bad. When your opponents are good, she's bad. I'm not even sure why this is a very controversial statement, the same thing could be said of Bastion and Torbjorn, two other heroes that mulch uncoordinated teams, and are absent from the pro-scene.

[Anteros]

...Except she's CLEARLY usable. If she's still usable at Seagull's level, unless you think any of us are better than Seagull, it follows that she is usable at our level as well, as it's not like there's a whole lot of "Aim perfectly at all times" that McCree has or anything in her kit.

We're not arguing that we're going to see her in a bunch of pro games. But holy crap she's *fine* at the very least at games below Seagull's level(And there isn't much above Seagull's level at this point).

Did you see the part where his whole team begged him to not pick her? That's because she's not actually viable at that level at all. Unless you happen to be a pro player and 5X better than everyone else in the game.

[Psyren]

I'm not engaging in any hyperbole. I've already expounded amply on her strengths. My objection to her has less to do with her power and effectiveness, and more to do with the inflexibility and reactivity in her kit, and even in the Seagull video, you can see instances where he's hampered by her feebleness, in particular where she sees the Tracer flanker and laughably starts lobbing orbs in the general direction of where she might come, because of the EXACT PROBLEM I'M COMPLAINING ABOUT.

Right, because a Lucio or Reinhardt could have done so much more to stop a Tracer getting past them too. Not every class needs to be good at everything.

The problem, I suspect, is in your adherence to the Blizzard thesis that just because she's categorized with the other supports, that she is one.

Actually no, I was being facetious - I do think (and have said repeatedly, including in the last thread) that she belongs more in Defense. But the basic idea of heroes that work at their best with other heroes is not unique to the Support category either.

And yes - yet again - I agree that she's weak in the pro meta. No one wants that to change more than me. But I'm not going to treat her like she has leprosy, rickets and polio in the meantime, nor do I want to play exclusively in games that mirror the pro meta anyway.

It IS a bad thing, when compared to literally anyone else's fire mode which can accomplish the same thing, as well as possibly prevail in battle on an open map. Even Junkrat's grenades can, through sheer volume of fire and good prediction, hit an aware target in an open affray. Anyone can spam fire down a hallway in hopes that someone will run into it.

Can "anyone" do that through an advancing Reinhardt barrier, or teleport dead teammates back to the front in moments for that matter?

Look, I'm not trying to argue that any Hero is an island to themself, I'm just offering that Symmetra's kit is not very powerful, relatively easy to counter/circumvent, and these factors account for her non-existent pick rate in the tournament scene. She's good because your opponents are bad. When your opponents are good, she's bad. I'm not even sure why this is a very controversial statement, the same thing could be said of Bastion and Torbjorn, two other heroes that mulch uncoordinated teams, and are absent from the pro-scene.

"Symmetra is weak" is not controversial. What's controversial are statements like "her alt fire is useless" (it's not), "her usefulness is inversely proportional to her opponent's IQ" (not unique to her), "you need scientific notation to calculate the odds of hitting" (you don't), and so on.

[Yuki Akuma]

Every time I'm on Defense in Hollywood or Hanamura and someone picks Symmetra I do a little dance. Her teleport is SO GOOD on those maps, you guys.

[Keltest]

Every time I'm on Defense in Hollywood or Hanamura and someone picks Symmetra I do a little dance. Her teleport is SO GOOD on those maps, you guys.

Ive lost attack games on those maps that were otherwise a done deal because of that freaking teleport.

[Psyren]

Every time I'm on Defense in Hollywood or Hanamura and someone picks Symmetra I do a little dance. Her teleport is SO GOOD on those maps, you guys.

Also King's Row. Dorado has a decent number of tight chokes and flanks ahead of Point A as well.

Route 66 and Numbani, not so much; I usually go for Torbjorn, D.Va, or Mercy/Lucio on Point A there.

I... haven't played enough Eichenwalde yet to see how she handles there

[Velaryon]

"Symmetra is weak" is not controversial. What's controversial are statements like "her alt fire is useless" (it's not), "her usefulness is inversely proportional to her opponent's IQ" (not unique to her), "you need scientific notation to calculate the odds of hitting" (you don't), and so on.

My scientific notation comment was made specifically in reference to the possibility of hitting multiple targets with one orb. Either you missed that part or you're arguing against a straw man. I'm at work so can't watch the Seagull video right now, so I don't know whether it applies to this particular argument. But even if it does, Seagull is so far above most players that even someone like me who doesn't pay attention to or care about pro gaming at all has heard of him. That he can do something doesn't mean that others can.

Yes, it's technically possible to hit two or more targets with the same orb, but not at all likely. It requires not one but two (or more) people to have such poor reaction times that they can't avoid something that literally moves slower than anything except maybe a D.Va holding down her fire button. It would take a situation like a Reinhardt coming through a choke point while shielding, and having someone so close behind him that they can't see anything in front of them, and the orb coming in at the correct angle.

Since we started on this tangent, and particularly since it was mentioned that Reinhardt sometimes has trouble getting out of the way without dropping his shield, I've been using Symmetra's alt fire more. I will confirm that it works vs. Reinhardt in that circumstance, and that you can occasionally also get someone who isn't paying attention. Once I even had a Tracer blink right into it and give me a free kill. But that's maybe one orb in ten, being generous. Most of them sail harmlessly past, without providing any significant delay to the opponents who have to move around them. There just aren't that many corridors that are so narrow they have to wait for the orb to pass.

Anyway, I've revised my argument from Symmetra's alt-fire being entirely useless to just being mostly useless, except in very specific situations. Since we're all in agreement that she needs some love from Blizzard, is there really a point to arguing over just how useful/useless her alt fire is?

[Psyren]

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My scientific notation comment was made specifically in reference to the possibility of hitting multiple targets with one orb. Either you missed that part or you're arguing against a straw man. I'm at work so can't watch the Seagull video right now, so I don't know whether it applies to this particular argument. But even if it does, Seagull is so far above most players that even someone like me who doesn't pay attention to or care about pro gaming at all has heard of him. That he can do something doesn't mean that others can.

Yes, it's technically possible to hit two or more targets with the same orb, but not at all likely. It requires not one but two (or more) people to have such poor reaction times that they can't avoid something that literally moves slower than anything except maybe a D.Va holding down her fire button. It would take a situation like a Reinhardt coming through a choke point while shielding, and having someone so close behind him that they can't see anything in front of them, and the orb coming in at the correct angle.

I did, but even then it's still hyperbole because Reinhardt and chokepoints. Lob orb at doorway (through your own Rein, if you've got one), and then it hits him and at least one guy behind him who can't see the orb coming because they're confidently placed behind what they think is an impenetrable barrier. Seagull demonstrates this at the very start of the video by going from 5% to 60% ult charge from a single orb, which would require hitting at least three people with it, never mind two. You can even see that his turrets haven't fired yet in that time, so it all came from the orb.

And that's the key - yes, an orb is easy to dodge if it's floating leisurely down an empty lane at you with absolutely nothing else going on. But when half your vision is blocked by your own tank (who's bulk/barrier can't protect you from it), and there's Zenyatta spheres and Hanzo arrows and Junkrat spam and god knows what else falling all around you, the orbs hit more often than you seem to think. Klutzy opponents/scrubs are not mandatory for this to happen - this is a chaotic game.

Seagull's skill is not that much of an outlier in this case because he's not getting matched against tyros (and he used her in Competitive to boot.) Even skilled players are trained to cluster behind their Reinhardt when approaching the choke. So even far less skilled players like myself (and possibly Manticoran/Yuki/Keltest et al) are going to be matched against even less skilled opponents than he was.

None of this makes her perfect or even good, but not useless either.

Anyway, I've revised my argument from Symmetra's alt-fire being entirely useless to just being mostly useless, except in very specific situations. Since we're all in agreement that she needs some love from Blizzard, is there really a point to arguing over just how useful/useless her alt fire is?

For the record, I did try to drop it back on page 2. It was other folks (yourself included) who wrote replies to me directly after that

But yes, I do agree she needs love from Blizzard. Some of what I'd like to see:

- Reworking her E; perhaps it gives larger shields but they decay over time like Lucio's sound barrier and need her to refresh them. This would make her a "healer" in the Dragon Age Inquisition sense, providing her team temp HP barriers like Solas et al.

- She can either move her Teleport around once placed to keep flankers guessing (spending a charge or two from it to do so; still better than having it destroyed) - or, it can start charging again while it's active (albeit much more slowly - maybe 75%-90% slower), so that destroying it gives you a good chance of punching through the Defense team, but she does at least have a chance of recovering from a destroyed one without starting completely from scratch.

- More turrets: I'd want to buff her allotment from 6 to 8 or so. Let her increase her coverage of a choke, moderately control two flanks at once, or have a true microwave room she can hold better than Roadhog. I'd also let her place them further away/higher up to better annoy Pharah, Reaper and Genji.

- Faster charge for her alt fire - more full power orbs in the air would improve her zoning and dps immensely.

[The_Jackal]

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I did, but even then it's still hyperbole because Reinhardt and chokepoints. Lob orb at doorway (through your own Rein, if you've got one), and then it hits him and at least one guy behind him who can't see the orb coming because they're confidently placed behind what they think is an impenetrable barrier. Seagull demonstrates this at the very start of the video by going from 5% to 60% ult charge from a single orb, which would require hitting at least three people with it, never mind two. You can even see that his turrets haven't fired yet in that time, so it all came from the orb.

And that's the key - yes, an orb is easy to dodge if it's floating leisurely down an empty lane at you with absolutely nothing else going on. But when half your vision is blocked by your own tank (who's bulk/barrier can't protect you from it), and there's Zenyatta spheres and Hanzo arrows and Junkrat spam and god knows what else falling all around you, the orbs hit more often than you seem to think. Klutzy opponents/scrubs are not mandatory for this to happen - this is a chaotic game.

Seagull's skill is not that much of an outlier in this case because he's not getting matched against tyros (and he used her in Competitive to boot.) Even skilled players are trained to cluster behind their Reinhardt when approaching the choke. So even far less skilled players like myself (and possibly Manticoran/Yuki/Keltest et al) are going to be matched against even less skilled opponents than he was.

None of this makes her perfect or even good, but not useless either.

For the record, I did try to drop it back on page 2. It was other folks (yourself included) who wrote replies to me directly after that

But yes, I do agree she needs love from Blizzard. Some of what I'd like to see:

- Reworking her E; perhaps it gives larger shields but they decay over time like Lucio's sound barrier and need her to refresh them. This would make her a "healer" in the Dragon Age Inquisition sense, providing her team temp HP barriers like Solas et al.

- She can either move her Teleport around once placed to keep flankers guessing (spending a charge or two from it to do so; still better than having it destroyed) - or, it can start charging again while it's active (albeit much more slowly - maybe 75%-90% slower), so that destroying it gives you a good chance of punching through the Defense team, but she does at least have a chance of recovering from a destroyed one without starting completely from scratch.

- More turrets: I'd want to buff her allotment from 6 to 8 or so. Let her increase her coverage of a choke, moderately control two flanks at once, or have a true microwave room she can hold better than Roadhog. I'd also let her place them further away/higher up to better annoy Pharah, Reaper and Genji.

- Faster charge for her alt fire - more full power orbs in the air would improve her zoning and dps immensely.

Now that we're at the 'what would make Symmetra suck less', I'd offer:

1) The ability to reactivate the teleporter with your ult button after it's been exhausted (but not if it's been destroyed). That way she can stay on the line and keep contributing, instead of going on walkabout every time she reaches full charge.

2) On a related note, the automatic 'they have a teleporter' announcement should only happen when they FIND the teleporter, as opposed immediately after it's deployed. The enemy team should already know a teleporter is coming when they see sentry turrets, the opposing flankers don't need a 'go spawncamp now' warning.

3) Marginally tougher turrets, and a slightly quicker recharge time, so you can crank out six new ones without too much of a delay. Right now you can blow up turrets with a McCree flashbang. Basically, anything more dangerous than a hairdryer will remove them instantly.

4) Faster cycling alt fire with a projectile more in line with Junkrat's grenades, slightly slower than Zenyatta's fire. You can tune down the amount of damage so that her cyclic DPS isn't too insane, her alt fire definitely hurts in the unlikely event that it hits.

5) AOE application of her shield, basically, like how Lucio's ult works. Hit button, everyone in range gets a boost to shields. Boosting the shield to 50 points would also not break the bank.

Bottom line, I don't think Symmetra needs a complete rework to make her a contender, just some tuning to her kit.

[LeSwordfish]

I wrote up a whole article on "how to fix symmetra", actually. It's here. I think I made a few bad assumptions for that post - I've seen her be played devastatingly since, but the core points stand: Not only is her best ability tied to her ultimate, her sheilds are boring makework, and her turrets are very situational, but she doesn't really fulfil the awesome fiction of "building things out of light."

[LooseCannoneer]

I would personally replace the E with a droppable Rein-like barrier. Not as much health on the shield, definitely, but being able to have, say, 3 walls down would be very helpful in team fights, plus they can be used to block the turrets for a short time.

[mythmonster2]

As someone who does enjoy playing as Symmetra (in no small part because I got her Devi skin, possibly one of my favorite skins in the entire game), my main problem with her is just that her toolkit is the most passive out of anyone in the game. You put a shield on someone once after they respawn... and that's it. You put down a turret... and that's it. Even her ultimate, although powerful, is drop it and forget it. There's not much that can be done about the turrets; it's just how they work. However, maybe some way of making shield-giving more active, like shielding someone who is already shielded giving extra temporary health, could help. There are many suggestions for her teleporter as well, but I've never really found one that strikes me.

[The_Jackal]

As someone who does enjoy playing as Symmetra (in no small part because I got her Devi skin, possibly one of my favorite skins in the entire game), my main problem with her is just that her toolkit is the most passive out of anyone in the game. You put a shield on someone once after they respawn... and that's it. You put down a turret... and that's it. Even her ultimate, although powerful, is drop it and forget it. There's not much that can be done about the turrets; it's just how they work. However, maybe some way of making shield-giving more active, like shielding someone who is already shielded giving extra temporary health, could help. There are many suggestions for her teleporter as well, but I've never really found one that strikes me.

Yeah, that's my objection as well. She's a functionary Hero. Until you're stuck in with your photon beam, there's really not much to do. Throw up turrets, zone choke points with right-click, occasionally refresh a shield or plunk down a teleporter.

[Velaryon]

She's a lot like Torbjorn in that respect. He builds his turret, whacks it a few times to level it up, and then either goes looking for people to shoot or just sits there until his turret needs repair (sadly, a lot of Torb players choose the latter). And then after some people die he scavenges some scrap and throws down some armor packs. Torb is the only one who gets play of the game where he's not actually doing anything.

[Draconi Redfir]

As someone who does enjoy playing as Symmetra (in no small part because I got her Devi skin, possibly one of my favorite skins in the entire game), my main problem with her is just that her toolkit is the most passive out of anyone in the game. You put a shield on someone once after they respawn... and that's it. You put down a turret... and that's it. Even her ultimate, although powerful, is drop it and forget it. There's not much that can be done about the turrets; it's just how they work. However, maybe some way of making shield-giving more active, like shielding someone who is already shielded giving extra temporary health, could help. There are many suggestions for her teleporter as well, but I've never really found one that strikes me.

Symmetra death ball:

Load map with basketballs.
Put three turrets as many turrets as you can fit on the basketball.
Carry the basketball with your gun into the front lines.
???
Profit!

[The_Jackal]

She's a lot like Torbjorn in that respect. He builds his turret, whacks it a few times to level it up, and then either goes looking for people to shoot or just sits there until his turret needs repair (sadly, a lot of Torb players choose the latter). And then after some people die he scavenges some scrap and throws down some armor packs. Torb is the only one who gets play of the game where he's not actually doing anything.

Torbjorn's sidearm has a great teal more utility in a pitched battle than Symmetra. He's got a shotgun alt fire which, while it may not compare favorably to Reaper's weapon, can still put the hurt on many offensive heroes, and his primary fire, while somewhat hard to aim, still hits just as hard as McCree's primary fire. His armor mechanic is also very easy to use. You just go where the fighting is hot, and pick up scrap and drop packs. In short, his tempo is a lot more active, and he gets to spend a lot more time firing his weapon and contributing directly, rather than just positioning spawnable objects and lobbing orbs in the general direction of the foe.

Anyone just babysitting their turret as Torbjorn is doing their team a disservice. I agree his turret shouldn't really contribute to his PotG, it's just not interesting to watch.

[Anteros]

I hadn't played for about two weeks and finally got back around to the game last night...and I'm getting steamrolled every match. I guess I need to "git gud" again, but I just don't have the free time.