Overwatch: Nerf This (Thread)

[Velaryon]

Doesn't that just give us even less reason to buff Junkrat?



No, absolutely not. In any game with 7 million players the median player is going to be bad. If we balanced by the median player we'd be nerfing Bastion and Torb and buffing heroes like Genji and Mccree. The game would be completely unplayable at higher levels.

It makes more sense to balance around high level play, because the people who play the game the most are going to get better over time and adapt to pro metas. You don't want to balance around the people who play one game every 2 weeks.

Balancing around the pro meta creates the opposite problem - that's when you end up with characters who are severely OP in average play, but they don't get touched because it isn't a problem on the pro scene. If they didn't take the average player into account, we'd still have Genji's never-ending ult allowing for easy team kills.

[Anteros]

You don't balance exclusively around the pros. You look at them, but you also look at upper tier competitive games, only looking at lower tier games when something is extremely obviously broken.

At least that's my preferred method.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

You don't balance exclusively around the pros. You look at them, but you also look at upper tier competitive games, only looking at lower tier games when something is extremely obviously broken.

At least that's my preferred method.

This gets into problems where the game can become rough to play for your average player though, which, while fine for certain game genres, is terrible for a game meant to be approachable to the average player.

As a result, a lot of games these days (League of Legends, Hearthstone, Overwatch, Heroes of the Storm, etc.) are balanced around a mix of things:

• Character performance at low skill / low experience.
• Character performance at high skill / high experience.
• Character use statistics.
• Character win rates (filtered by character familiarity).

In short, if a character is a problem at any of these there is probably SOME tuning required, but you can adjust characters in multiple ways. It's relatively easy to target a buff at decreasing top-level performance without harming (or even while helping) low-level performance, for example. You don't want characters useless or super strong at any level, although variance will exist (Tryndamere will always be a pub-stomping League character, for example, because his best counter is well-utilized crowd control and proper positioning). You don't want characters who are unapproachable, although having characters whose win-rate increases with character experience isn't a bad thing -- as long as it remains within the bounds of reason.

In short, it's a LOT more complicated than "balance around X skill level," and targeting a specific skill level has the chance to disrupt the game for more players than it improves the game for.

[Anteros]

EveRyan single game you used as an example balances primarily around competitive high level play.

Also Dota 2, which is probably the most balanced one of all.

[Pendulous]

Lots of leaks. Sombra's appearance, and Halloween skins and comic https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/c..._brawl_leaked/

[Necroticplague]

Huh. I'm actually surprised Sombra is a hero. The current step in the ARG (amomentincrime.com) made me think the whole deal with her was to be opening the first new game mode since the game came out: some kind of mann vs. machine Second Omnic Invasion mode, since it's the 'sombra protocol' that's 'transmitting information to active omnics'. Kinda figured it was an AI, or typical human anthropomorphizing in speech being used to refer to a computer program (though I guess the distinction between those two is arbitrary).

Although, on a hilarious note, the top of that leaked image seems to imply something similar, if completely unconnected, as the halloween event (the part where it mentions zomnics and dr. junkenstein).

Actually remember a dr. junkenstein (as the image calls it) spray being found by data mining the game a week or two ago. Saw it somewhere on youtube.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

EveRyan single game you used as an example balances primarily around competitive high level play.

...have you read their in-depth balance notes? There is VERY often talk of beefing up performance in lower level play on all of those games, and Riot, at least, has specifically said they balance for ALL levels. It's been documented, so I'm not sure this statement of yours holds water. :p

[Psyren]

Huh. I'm actually surprised Sombra is a hero. The current step in the ARG (amomentincrime.com) made me think the whole deal with her was to be opening the first new game mode since the game came out: some kind of mann vs. machine Second Omnic Invasion mode, since it's the 'sombra protocol' that's 'transmitting information to active omnics'. Kinda figured it was an AI, or typical human anthropomorphizing in speech being used to refer to a computer program (though I guess the distinction between those two is arbitrary).

She has a hero file on the table in Gibraltar just like 76 though. That suggested to me that she was a person.

I honestly doubt they're adding Horde Mode anytime soon. A co-op or story-ish mode would pull many players out of the QP and competitive queues and make the PvP matchmaking take that much longer. I wouldn't expect a PvE mode to be added until the game starts to show signs of decline, as that would be a big draw to not only revitalize lapsed players, it would pull in many new ones who would enjoy Overwatch except for the fact that they dislike PvP.

[Sylian]

If they didn't take the average player into account, we'd still have Genji's never-ending ult allowing for easy team kills.

Genji was an issue at pro level and high SR Comp games as well.

Absolutely. The game should be balanced around the median player. The pro scene should be an afterthought.

Punishing people for actually getting good at the game would likely kill it. Once you get good at the game it becomes broken, since it was balanced around the median player. It'd also likely kill the tournament scene.

Junkrat feeds Zarya energy and the supports ultimate charge in exchange for an ultimate that's not really that good and will be destroyed most of the time, or net 1 or 2 kills at best (generally). As long as Zarya is as prevalent as she is I doubt Junkrat will be all that viable, unless he gets some significant buffs.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Punishing people for actually getting good at the game would likely kill it. Once you get good at the game it becomes broken, since it was balanced around the median player. It'd also likely kill the tournament scene.

Which is, again, why you attempt to balance for multiple levels simultaneously, which is definitely possible and commonly done.

[DaedalusMkV]

She has a hero file on the table in Gibraltar just like 76 though. That suggested to me that she was a person.

I honestly doubt they're adding Horde Mode anytime soon. A co-op or story-ish mode would pull many players out of the QP and competitive queues and make the PvP matchmaking take that much longer. I wouldn't expect a PvE mode to be added until the game starts to show signs of decline, as that would be a big draw to not only revitalize lapsed players, it would pull in many new ones who would enjoy Overwatch except for the fact that they dislike PvP.

Looks like the Halloween Brawl is going to be some sort of horde mode, based on descriptions we've seen of it. My guess is they'll use it as a test-bed for developing a full game mode later on.

[The_Jackal]

She has a hero file on the table in Gibraltar just like 76 though. That suggested to me that she was a person.

I honestly doubt they're adding Horde Mode anytime soon. A co-op or story-ish mode would pull many players out of the QP and competitive queues and make the PvP matchmaking take that much longer. I wouldn't expect a PvE mode to be added until the game starts to show signs of decline, as that would be a big draw to not only revitalize lapsed players, it would pull in many new ones who would enjoy Overwatch except for the fact that they dislike PvP.

That's too bad, because by the time they let enthusiasm for the game wane, it will probably be too late. Plus, adding a coop mode would not necessarily come at the expense of PvP, assuming they do some work on building incentives to do both, and if they were concerned about one game mode poisoning another, they would have never have launched competitive mode to begin with, but put the rating system directly into quick play (and work on tweaking map balance, FFS).

Genji was an issue at pro level and high SR Comp games as well.

Punishing people for actually getting good at the game would likely kill it. Once you get good at the game it becomes broken, since it was balanced around the median player. It'd also likely kill the tournament scene.

Junkrat feeds Zarya energy and the supports ultimate charge in exchange for an ultimate that's not really that good and will be destroyed most of the time, or net 1 or 2 kills at best (generally). As long as Zarya is as prevalent as she is I doubt Junkrat will be all that viable, unless he gets some significant buffs.

The problem is that the pro scene is where it's IMPOSSIBLE to prevent a meta from forming. No matter WHAT balance changes the devs implement, there's going to be a comp that's top dog, and all other picks will be built around either driving it, or countering it. Also, balancing exclusively for pick rates and success at the top will TOTALLY overjuice low-skill heroes like Bastion, Junkrat, and Torbjorn in the middle brackets. Junkrat is never going to be a strong pick in the top-tier meta, because the heroes he excels at defeating are all 'camper' heroes, and buffing them WILL destroy the pro scene. Imagine a game where the meta is Bastion/Reinhardt/Mei/Junkrat/Lucio/Zenyatta. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[Anteros]

Which is, again, why you attempt to balance for multiple levels simultaneously, which is definitely possible and commonly done.

But competitive always comes first. That's just how these games balance. It caters to both their power users, as well as the e-sports scene.

That's too bad, because by the time they let enthusiasm for the game wane, it will probably be too late. Plus, adding a coop mode would not necessarily come at the expense of PvP, assuming they do some work on building incentives to do both, and if they were concerned about one game mode poisoning another, they would have never have launched competitive mode to begin with, but put the rating system directly into quick play (and work on tweaking map balance, FFS).

I can't speak for the overall numbers, but I know that in my circle of friends the enthusiasm has already waned. There's just not much to do in the game. We've played the same 10 maps and 3 game modes to death already and there's very little draw to keep playing. Especially when you consider that one of the main 3 game modes is (attack/defense) is very poorly balanced overall and unfun.

We definitely got our money's worth out of the game, but it's pretty much run its course by now.

[Psyren]

Looks like the Halloween Brawl is going to be some sort of horde mode, based on descriptions we've seen of it. My guess is they'll use it as a test-bed for developing a full game mode later on.

Testing the waters with a Brawl is a great idea.

That's too bad, because by the time they let enthusiasm for the game wane, it will probably be too late. Plus, adding a coop mode would not necessarily come at the expense of PvP, assuming they do some work on building incentives to do both, and if they were concerned about one game mode poisoning another, they would have never have launched competitive mode to begin with, but put the rating system directly into quick play (and work on tweaking map balance, FFS).

Eh, TF2's mode didn't come out for 5 years and that's still going strong, and it doesn't have anywhere near the ancillary appeal (e.g. characters, lore, cross-platform penetration, community involvement in uncovering secrets etc) that Overwatch does. Now, I don't think they'll wait anywhere near that long, but I do think it'll be a good enough draw that they can afford not to go for it when the game isn't even a year old yet.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

But competitive always comes first. That's just how these games balance. It caters to both their power users, as well as the e-sports scene.

Having talked to designers at a few of these companies (and interviewed for a design position at one), I still say that's a vast simplification of the challenge of balancing a game, and the manner in which companies address and tackle balance issues.

[Rising Phoenix]

G'day peeps,

Picked the game up a few days ago and have been playing Ana mainly. Any tips on playing her (other than coordinating with your team and hoping that they at least have the brains to moderately play intelligently?)

She seems best when paired up with another healer or with hit and run heroes that know when to retreat.

[Anteros]

G'day peeps,

Picked the game up a few days ago and have been playing Ana mainly. Any tips on playing her (other than coordinating with your team and hoping that they at least have the brains to moderately play intelligently?)

She seems best when paired up with another healer or with hit and run heroes that know when to retreat.

She's probably my best hero these days. I also like to run her with another healer, but I'd say she's best with a tankier composition that can stand around her and protect her. I can usually keep up about 7 or 8k healing in a round unless I'm purposefully letting the other support build ult. I don't like her with flankers very much because it's hard to keep LoS for consistent healing. At least with Zen and Mercy the heal continues for a second after they turn a corner.

Other than the obvious aim requirement I'd say getting good with the sleep dart is important since it shuts down most ults instantly. Reins seem to love charging at Ana as well, but they just get to go to sleep every time. The grenade is a good self heal, but it also completely shuts down an enemy Zenyatta ult, so you may want to save it for that if you know he has ult.

[Rising Phoenix]

She's probably my best hero these days. I also like to run her with another healer, but I'd say she's best with a tankier composition that can stand around her and protect her. I can usually keep up about 7 or 8k healing in a round unless I'm purposefully letting the other support build ult. I don't like her with flankers very much because it's hard to keep LoS for consistent healing. At least with Zen and Mercy the heal continues for a second after they turn a corner.

Other than the obvious aim requirement I'd say getting good with the sleep dart is important since it shuts down most ults instantly. Reins seem to love charging at Ana as well, but they just get to go to sleep every time. The grenade is a good self heal, but it also completely shuts down an enemy Zenyatta ult, so you may want to save it for that if you know he has ult.

Thanks.

So when playing with a tanky set do you just follow behind the tank or get onto a sniping position. She has very low mobility and usually I don't have the time get into a snipping position when the tanks charge in.

[Yuki Akuma]

Hide behind the glowing blue rectangle and just shoot your teammates in the back constantly.

Maybe shoot Widowmaker if you see her in the distance and you can get a shot off without an ally getting in the way and blocking you.

Remember to use your biotic grenade. And also remember that your sleep dart, unlike your other projectiles, WILL go through allies.

[Anteros]

I pretty much stay with the pack in the back and fire my gun as fast as I can at either allies or enemies.

[Rising Phoenix]

Hide behind the glowing blue rectangle and just shoot your teammates in the back constantly.

Maybe shoot Widowmaker if you see her in the distance and you can get a shot off without an ally getting in the way and blocking you.

Remember to use your biotic grenade. And also remember that your sleep dart, unlike your other projectiles, WILL go through allies.

That's pretty much what I am doing, didn't know that about the sleep dart. Thanks!

Edit: Thanks Anteros as well.

[The_Jackal]

G'day peeps,

Picked the game up a few days ago and have been playing Ana mainly. Any tips on playing her (other than coordinating with your team and hoping that they at least have the brains to moderately play intelligently?)

She seems best when paired up with another healer or with hit and run heroes that know when to retreat.

Never scope in. You lose situational awareness and mobility, and you'll get outsniped by just about everyone. Stay close to your tanks, and get used to fighting alongside your team. Do NOT succumb to the temptation to sit back and plink, you'll get wrecked by enemy flankers and it will be much harder to aim your biotic grenade, which is utterly crucial to your effectiveness. Also, know that your (full health) teammates WILL jump in front of you CONSTANTLY, because this game's player base has a median IQ of 68.

[Aux-Ash]

The problem is that the pro scene is where it's IMPOSSIBLE to prevent a meta from forming. No matter WHAT balance changes the devs implement, there's going to be a comp that's top dog, and all other picks will be built around either driving it, or countering it. Also, balancing exclusively for pick rates and success at the top will TOTALLY overjuice low-skill heroes like Bastion, Junkrat, and Torbjorn in the middle brackets. Junkrat is never going to be a strong pick in the top-tier meta, because the heroes he excels at defeating are all 'camper' heroes, and buffing them WILL destroy the pro scene.

Which is why heroes aren't balanced solely based on how things look like on the highest levels of play.

Soldier 76 was nerfed based on something that didn't happen on the pro-scene (mouse macros, which aren't allowed for tournaments) and is unlikely to get buffed much since while he sees virtually no play at the pro-scene he's doing fine in QP, Brawls and Platinum and below.

Symmetra on the other hand, while she has a high winrate, is getting buffed because even at low levels of play she's still a niche pick shining only at first point defence (it just so happens that a greater amount of games never progress beyond first point defence).

Bastion, Torbjorn and Junkrat all have the problem that the best way to counter them is to coordinate, have good aim and a good gamesense, something that comes with higher levels of play and cannot really be mechanically balanced around. They still see play as surprise picks and occasionally gets good value, but mostly they aren't played because they're easy to play around. But at lower levels they're doing great, because those elements are lacking. So they're unlikely to recieve much in the way of major buffs (Junkrats upcoming buff is really quite minor and unlikely to change much).

[Pendulous]

Anyone else getting constant lag spikes? I'm hoping to hell it's not just me, because I've already contacted my ISP twice, and they claim my issue is "fixed", but I'm still getting terrible lag when playing Overwatch. Everything else so far tonight has ran smoother, but I'm dying constantly and lagging so bad, the game is...and I hate the meme-ality of this term, but it's true...literally unplayable.

[The_Jackal]

Anyone else getting constant lag spikes? I'm hoping to hell it's not just me, because I've already contacted my ISP twice, and they claim my issue is "fixed", but I'm still getting terrible lag when playing Overwatch. Everything else so far tonight has ran smoother, but I'm dying constantly and lagging so bad, the game is...and I hate the meme-ality of this term, but it's true...literally unplayable.

You can verify whether you're having network induced problems by following the procedure here: https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/718.

[Rising Phoenix]

Well I just got asked to teach someone my Ana ways and as one of the most annoying skilled newbies they have encountered (they were rank 98 bronze) so I guess I've improved.

Edit: in other news I wish people would just leave targets they cannot kill alone. Especially if they cannot quickly dispatch them? That nanoboosted Reinhard? Please just let him sleep it out.

[Keltest]

Well I just got asked to teach someone my Ana ways and as one of the most annoying skilled newbies they have encountered (they were rank 98 bronze) so I guess I've improved.

Edit: in other news I wish people would just leave targets they cannot kill alone. Especially if they cannot quickly dispatch them? That nanoboosted Reinhard? Please just let him sleep it out.

So much yes. I can at least forgive it if youre like a junkrat or someone who cant entirely control where their damage ends up, but theres really no reason a McCree should be shooting him when hes on the ground

[Anteros]

Never scope in. You lose situational awareness and mobility, and you'll get outsniped by just about everyone. Stay close to your tanks, and get used to fighting alongside your team. Do NOT succumb to the temptation to sit back and plink, you'll get wrecked by enemy flankers and it will be much harder to aim your biotic grenade, which is utterly crucial to your effectiveness. Also, know that your (full health) teammates WILL jump in front of you CONSTANTLY, because this game's player base has a median IQ of 68.

I don't know about never. Sometimes scoping is the only way to make the shot. I would say don't scope if you think you're in any danger at all, and don't tunnel vision down the scope like many players do.

Anyone else getting constant lag spikes? I'm hoping to hell it's not just me, because I've already contacted my ISP twice, and they claim my issue is "fixed", but I'm still getting terrible lag when playing Overwatch. Everything else so far tonight has ran smoother, but I'm dying constantly and lagging so bad, the game is...and I hate the meme-ality of this term, but it's true...literally unplayable.

It happens to me for a few days after most patches, but eventually goes away.

[BRC]

Symmetra on the other hand, while she has a high winrate, is getting buffed because even at low levels of play she's still a niche pick shining only at first point defence (it just so happens that a greater amount of games never progress beyond first point defence).

How are Winrate's calculated? Because usually, people switch off Symmetra after the first point is captured, so the chances of playing her when you lose a game are pretty low.

[Anteros]

How are Winrate's calculated? Because usually, people switch off Symmetra after the first point is captured, so the chances of playing her when you lose a game are pretty low.

Your personal statistics will reflect any character you played during the match as a win or loss.

Supposedly Blizzard tracks the percentages as well. So if you play Sym for 40% of the match and lose she'll only get 40% of a loss in the statistics column. At least I've heard this a bunch of times, but never seen any official confirmation from Blizzard.

It would explain why point A heroes have such high winrates though since people switch off of them when they're losing and they don't get the full credit for the losses.