Erfworld 66: page 60

[katana2665]

I grovel at the bestowment of your genius...


(and yes, I'm not sure if I can combine (bestow + ment), but you get the point...

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

Well, if they do, Parson will know about it, and they should take out at least a full stack of dwagons, if Parson indeed uses the Lake and Fort dwagons as a trap to surround Ansom, to cut him an escape route.

When it's parsons turn, he has fully healed dwagons while Ansom's troops are damaged (heal at the start of your turn isn't it?), and about 6 stacks of dwagons against ansoms 1... It could cost a few Dwagons but he'd have taken out the handiest Reconaissance unit (Vinny), a bunch of archers and walking trees, but most importantly the enemy's chief warlord.

heh... maybe they could even transport Ansoms body to Gobwin Knob and uncroak him

[Yenkaz]

Don't know if this should be in a spoiler space.. oh well.

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I don't remember anyone predicting that he'd use a lake, brilliant.

[nli10]

So good I read it twice - and that never happens.


PErsonally I'd rather read 3 or 4 of these strips at a time, but I can't help popping on when my RSS reader fires up with (usually stupidly large) comic numbers.

Keep up the strategy geekery. Can't wait for the inevitable fightback!

[eilandesq]

Interesting refinement of the "unused move disappears at the end of turn." Apparently, even clumsy fliers like dwagons can circle freely over inaccessable terrain such as heavy forest or a large lake even without any remaining move--making them rather formidable defensively in a system where units heal fully every turn. From my experience, that's an unusual rule mechanic for flying units in either tabletop or computer wargames--usually a unit that is "out of gas" must land voluntarily or be destroyed when it lands involuntarily.

[Aquillion]

In the last panel, it looks like Vinny is explaining to Ansom how booped they are. That's interesting... we knew that Vinny was the more thoughtful person on their side, but this would seem to confirm that he actually does most of the heavy thinking, to the point where Ansom needs him to explain what important developments mean.

[Irbis]

Or, he simply convinces him to drop his troops and run like hell.

Ansom isn't the type of leader to do that so that would have explained his face. After all, both Ansom and Vinnie are flying units, and these usually have much more move than land units like elves.

[jindra34]

The plaid maps are cooler than the coillition ones.

[JazzManJim]

Did anyone else notice that neither Stanley nor Parson used the title "Lord" when addressing each other and neither one of them apparently noticed it?

I'm not sure whether that's a mistake or an indication of a change of "status" between the two.

[JazzManJim]

I sure hope Parson has something big planned, because his tactics are needlessly complex. He could simply have stacked all his dwagons, wounded and otherwise, over that lake hex. Next turn, he could strike the siege again with impunity.

Yes, he could have, but then he would have no trap and Ansom would likely know exactly where all of his Dwagons were. Bad move.

And Ansom does have reinforcements. He has Jillian and the Archons. I gather that Parson's plan is to smash Ansom's force next turn. Given that, it's obvious to me what Ansom's best move is: he attacks one of the two 4-dwagon stacks adjacent to him, and flies Jillian and the Archons into his stack to bolster the defense. Parson probably doesn't have the forces to guarantee victory against that force, at least not without very sizeable losses. So he'll hit the siege instead.

Yes, he does. What's more, Parson knows he does and he also knows that not all of the reinforcements can get to the trap in time for it to matter appreciably. So his reinforcements really aren't a great help to him at this point.

And the hexes on either sides of the pincers are likely to be stronger than the one unit Ansom just hit - perhaps to the point where an Ansom victory is not a done deal.

[Caledonian]

If that were just a normal enemy stack, I'd say ignore it and go trash the siege engines.

But the High Commander, his best Warlord, and the Arkenpliers all within two hexes of the entire dragon army... that's too sweet a pie to pass up.

My prediction: the world falls into darkness, triumph for the Holy Cause! Bwa ha ha ha!

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Interestingly, Sizemore keeps trying to learn new magics, despite every indication that he's only good for one (unpleasant) type. That desire, that longing to be something more - I think Sizemore is a prime candidate to attune to the Arkenpliers. Stanley's giant ego and sense of entitlement is probably what gives him the ability to control the Arkenhammer. In a more modest way, I think Sizemore has the potential to rise above himself, and that's what I think the TitanTools are sensitive to.

[warmachine]

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If Parson kills Ansom, that'd be a better strategic move than destroying the seige units. With a nearby forest, seige engines can be slowly rebuilt but it is Ansom leading and keeping the alliance together. Kill Ansom and make an alliance success seem very costly or difficult and the alliance will fall apart.

[TiamatRoar]

Parson's going to attack Ansom, far as I can tell (he wouldn't have emphasized Ansom being in the pincer formation if that wasn't his plan). However, I don't think Parson realizes Ansom has the Arkenpliers and what the Arkenpliers do to the uncroaked. This will be interesting.

Interesting refinement of the "unused move disappears at the end of turn." Apparently, even clumsy fliers like dwagons can circle freely over inaccessable terrain such as heavy forest or a large lake even without any remaining move--making them rather formidable defensively in a system where units heal fully every turn. From my experience, that's an unusual rule mechanic for flying units in either tabletop or computer wargames--usually a unit that is "out of gas" must land voluntarily or be destroyed when it lands involuntarily.

At the very least, land units can still attack fliers on the land units' side's turn. There's a reason why Parson specifically mentions "our turn" when he says "You can avoid land units except archers on YOUR turn". So fliers don't particularly have that defensive "I can just stay in the air away from you" advantage against land units if it's not their turn.

[happyturtle]

I wonder what happens if Ansom actually gets croaked? Does the attacking army automatically lose?

We know what happens when the Chief Warlord gets killed. King Stately will get the chance to promote another warlord, and the fight goes on.

[jindra34]

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If Parson kills Ansom, that'd be a better strategic move than destroying the seige units. With a nearby forest, seige engines can be slowly rebuilt but it is Ansom leading and keeping the alliance together. Kill Ansom and make an alliance success seem very costly or difficult and the alliance will fall apart.

WE DOI NOT KNOW BUILDING MECHANICS. SO FAR ALL WE KNOW IS THAT UNITS ARE MADE IN CITIES. NOT BUILT OUT ON THE FEILDS.

[Caledonian]

However, I don't think Parson realizes Ansom has the Arkenpliers and what the Arkenpliers do to the uncroaked. This will be interesting.

But all the people who DO know what effect they have on the uncroaked are in the planning room. Presumably Parson will now discuss strategy and tactics with them, and the subject will come up.

[Tundar]

A wise ogre once told me that:

Assumptions is the mother of all boop-ups

That saying has yet to prove wrong

[SteveMB]

I sure hope Parson has something big planned, because his tactics are needlessly complex. He could simply have stacked all his dwagons, wounded and otherwise, over that lake hex. Next turn, he could strike the siege again with impunity.

If Ansom knew where the wounded dwagons were, he could have gathered whatever units he had that were adapted to that terrain type (plus whatever flyers could reach, if necessary) and selectively croak them regardless of any healthy dwagons in the same hex (exactly the way Parson selectively targeted the siege units).

Edit: On rereading, Parson notes that Ansom has no water units. Hmmm....

The only way to prevent that is to keep Ansom's forces away from the wounded dwagons. Parson's first plan to do that was to build a "fort" of healthy dwagons around them; when he discovered that Ansom didn't have omniscient-eye intel like he did, his new plan to do that was to build a fake "fort" as misdirection.

[Friv]

Poor Ansom. He looks like someone croaked his puppy...

[Elcaz]

I don't play tabletop games and following what's going on in this comic is sometimes hard for me but I'm enjoying it anyway.

Now, regarding the "losing the chief warlord is an automatic loss" suggestion, I thought this was a battle between kings. Stanley is the king of one side and we've yet to know who the king of the alliance is (Ansom does say "for the king" when killing the dwagon).

So I figure losing the king loses the game but losing Parson or Ansom does not.

[Etheric]

Losing Ansom will not result in the automatic loss of the battle, but giving stanley the arkenpliars as well as the jetstones losing a ton of their best units is going to make life interesting for sure.

Of course what is still open is Ansom, vinney plus jillian and 5 gwiffons, and the archerons vs the damaged stack plus any other fliers that can reach. Going in and turning the warlords to dust, croaking a few dwagons then getting out might work.

The forest units stack has got at least 1 move left. If Ansom has at least 3 move left that is possible, Jillian should be able to make it to the dragons hex too if she could have made it to the centre of the fort.

Predicting the water was a bit trickier for sure. Personally I think the fort is too close to the water, and a competent scout should ahve found the other stack of dragons, but hey :D. I can buy the overconfidence, and the fort was bound to be found first the way it was set up.

Staying there and fighting approx 40 dwagons is not going to work at all.

Using the forest units to croak dwagons might help too, better to fight them now without the warlord bonus and stack bonus rather than next turn with them.

[darkgolem]

Here's a question;

How is that a pincer formation, or more accurately, why does it matter?

A pincer formation is where two groups attack from different sides of a battle at once, usually with a blocking force on a third side of the battle, allowing only one avenue of escape. The result is that the defender;

• A: must halve (sp?) their forces to fight in two different directions
• B: can't defend as well because they can't usually take cover as well from two different directions.
• C: is subject to more concentrated fire since they retreat in one direction only.

Some or all of this applies to melee rather than ranged combat, and the specific situation.

However, in a TBS game there is no facing; you move a unit onto a hex and then compare the two units capabilities and stregnth, modified by the terrain.

Furthermore the individual battlefield is not figured out.. it is not like you go to one "heavy forest" hex and there is a tree there and a larger tree here, while another "heavy forest" hex with the same trees and such in a different setup. Instead it is just a "heavy forest hex" like any other "heavy forest hex" and the modifiers and qualities of a "heavy forest hex" are applied to any battles there.

That being the case, it is irrelevant which direction a unit attacks from, or the overall formation a group of unit has when it attacks a single hex, such as in this case. If the pincer formation attacked, it matters which stack attacks first, since that fight would be determined first, and that's it.

That being said, what makes this different so that the fact that the stacks form a pincer means anything? Unless they have a retreat ability with warlords (which makes no sense since they lose movement at the end of their turn), the best formation for an attack is to make as many stacks as possible in one hex (with warlords for bonuses, if it is worth risking losing the warlords) and then attack the other hex.

[Wender]

A wise ogre once told me that:

Assumption is the mother of all boop-ups

That saying has yet to prove wrong

Notice that Parson drops a big assumption in this update. He'd better have anticipated that after this turn Ansom will no longer assume that he's up against an idiot.

Parson has learned well from Wanda, but you can see how it grates on him to play that role. It can't be easy for him to give up that absolute control he's always enjoyed as a GM.

[psycojester]

You're all missing the most pressing issue in the comic. If being attuned to the ArkenHammer gave Stanley dwagons will being attuned to the ArkenPliers give him hidwa?

[king korath]

somebody on Ansom's side is going to quote Admiral Ackbar.

[Drakron]

Here's a question;

How is that a pincer formation, or more accurately, why does it matter?
...

There is stack units limits, pincher will allow to send 2 max stack hexes against one max stack hex.

[Scientivore]

When it's parsons turn, he has fully healed dwagons while Ansom's troops are damaged (heal at the start of your turn isn't it?), and about 6 stacks of dwagons against ansoms 1... It could cost a few Dwagons but he'd have taken out the handiest Reconaissance unit (Vinny), a bunch of archers and walking trees, but most importantly the enemy's chief warlord.

Even better, they can selectively avoid the tough gumps entirely. They can also withdraw without actually croaking (all of) the archers, although the archers get their hitsies in the meanwhile. On their own turn with warlords guiding them, the dwagons will be able to leave as soon as they achieve their main objectives and croak or capture any fliers.

[Flakey]

Did anyone else notice that neither Stanley nor Parson used the title "Lord" when addressing each other and neither one of them apparently noticed it?

I'm not sure whether that's a mistake or an indication of a change of "status" between the two.

As per Parson's insult to Stanley, back when he was summoned.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0020.html

Stanley himself said he was no longer Lord, but Tool.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Yo darkgolem:

Ansom is about to get hit from three directions at once, maybe more. Right now, he has twelve dwagons directly to the left and right of him, nineteen wounded but warlord augmented behind him, and the remaining thirty in the party platter (if I did the math right) in front of him.

This is vs. several gumps, woodsy elves, and whatever powers Vinny, Ansom and the Arkenpliers possess.

I hate mixing games, but to me this is 61 Protoss scouts (dwagons) and three hero units (the three uncroaked warlords) vs. about three to five (maybe more) Marine squads (woodsy elves) backed up by 5-10 Goliaths (forest gumps), and the two hero units of Ansom and Vinny.

My money is on the Protoss.

[Elcaz]

Another minor question:

Supposing Parson had actually hidden his weak dwagons in the center of the donut and Ansom had actually managed to move there and killed them, then he must have had one hell of an escape plan, because if he stayed there he would have been surrounded by dwagons he didn't even want to face in the first place (or he would have punched through any of the other dwagon hexes).

Turns out he didn't move into the center so I can only assume he's saved that move. Can he still not escape with most of his units? Or was this mission supposed to be suicidal in the first place?