Erfworld 66: page 60

[Tolkien_Freak]

Ye Titans, I hate it when a ruler takes credit for something one of his subordinates did! Oh well, can't be helped.

Hm, Parson's looking a little better groomed in this one...

[Eratosthenes]

What are the odds that Parson will lobby for Stanley to accept the surrender of Vinny and Ansom, with the relinquishing of the arkenpliers?

I don't think, even with Jillian and those fliers, that that stack can survive two combined stacks of dragons. They were worried about successfully taking on a stack of wounded dragons with what they could muster. They'll now be facing twice as many unhurt dragons.

And Jillian's a 9, but was only able to take out one dragon before being captured.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Another minor question:

Supposing Parson had actually hidden his weak dwagons in the center of the donut and Ansom had actually managed to move there and killed them, then he must have had one hell of an escape plan, because if he stayed there he would have been surrounded by dwagons he didn't even want to face in the first place (or he would have punched through any of the other dwagon hexes).

Turns out he didn't move into the center so I can only assume he's saved that move. Can he still not escape with most of his units? Or was this mission supposed to be suicidal in the first place?

It wasn't the dwagons Ansom was after as much as the uncroaked warlords. With the "now stay dead!" deaths of three warlords, Stanley loses much of his command and control of his primary weapons. Dwagons flying off in all directions? How many dwagons do each warlord control? Losing 3/5th of your warlords translates into losing how many dwagons? Without the rulebook, it's hard to say.

I think the mission was suicide for everyone BUT Ansom and Vinny. Jillian was supposed to provide the extraction for the heroes, while leaving the gumps and elves to escape on their own as best as they could. But with Ansom's primary target not where he thought they would be, Ansom is going to get pounded before he is able to escape, and he may well lose the Arkenpliers in his retreat...

[Drakron]

He did not had a escape plan on the original plan, the fort was a delay to a possible enemy counter-attack on his wounded raiding forces, if they were killed then he had to settle for being able to reduce the enemy siege forces and work from that.

Also what we see is not his original plan, I doubt he would put the fort so close to the enemy lines and certainly not with such a weakness in the fort defense, my take is he could had raided the siege weapons twice before his "fort" was breached and so reduce the enemy siege around 80% before he was forced to remove from battle.

[rosebud]

Damn Stanley's so stupid... I really hope Parson gets a way to free himself of his grasp and kick him in the boop.

Why? If he's not in the way, it's not a problem. It's more of a challenge, really, and that just increases the fun!

[jazz1m]

My a lot of people were right, and I do think I remember some one saying something about a lake on a previous thread. I do believe that Vinny and Ansom will realize that they are no longer dealing with Stanley, and at least think that perhaps Wanda is helping him out more (if they know about her). I don't think that they expect a strange new warlord from a different dimension giving him ideas. But they probably will be a lot more cautious from now on. I think that Ansom's only chance would certainly to call in Jillian and the Archons for back up.

Honestly, Parson's original plan was to take out the siege with the attacks, and then on the next turn to destroy the rest of the siege and then fly them back to GK. He could take the Arkenpliers and take out Vinny and Ansom, but I think that the risks are too high and he will end up losing a lot more dwagons in the process.

[Elderac]

It looks like Ansom and Vinnie are really booped now. I figure there must be some they will escape as it is unlikely that two main characters will be eliminated this early in the story. Wondering how they will do it makes me come back for more.

[Essex]

mixing games, but to me this is 61 Protoss scouts (dwagons) and three hero units (the three uncroaked warlords) vs. about three to five (maybe more) Marine squads (woodsy elves) backed up by 5-10 Goliaths (forest gumps), and the two hero units of Ansom and Vinny.

My money is on the Protoss.

Ah, but you're only looking at this on the local level. While Parson could obliterate the forces caught in his trap he will wind up with some of his units being destroyed or injured. Given that his enemies have an air force fully capable of defeating his own air force, Parson cannot afford to win the coming battle if it costs him the war.

I predict that while the Tool is pressing for an all out attack on the trapped forces Parson will try to talk him into hit and run tactics designed for maximum carnage for minimum losses.

[Gdrad]

In tic tac toe, the only way to win is to set up to simultanous win conditions. 2 options that are equilly viable.

Look at these facts
A: Ansom still does NOT know where the wounded dwagons are.
B: Ansom understands how harsh his position is. While he has a strong anti air hex, if all the B dwagons group up and hit him.....
C: The A dwagons ridden by warlords did in about 50% of Ansoms siege. I wager they can do it again

So I see this boiling down into one of two events.
1: A double strike. All the A dwagons hit the siege again. All the B dwagons group up into one megahex and hit Ansom.
2: The archons tilt things and make it to risky to hit either A: Ansom (they reenforce ansom) or B: The siege (They reenforce the caravan).

Also consider that the flyer squad can not hit the wounded dwagons if they don't know where they are. If they have just enough move to reach Ansom (or the caravan) then they can not also scout and find the wounded. It would be best to pull them back for defense so their healthy fresh and make a stack too dangerous to hit.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Ah, but you're only looking at this on the local level. While Parson could obliterate the forces caught in his trap he will wind up with some of his units being destroyed or injured. Given that his enemies have an air force fully capable of defeating his own air force, Parson cannot afford to win the coming battle if it costs him the war.

I predict that while the Tool is pressing for an all out attack on the trapped forces Parson will try to talk him into hit and run tactics designed for maximum carnage for minimum losses.

I wanted to extract the key part of your post:

Given that his enemies have an air force fully capable of defeating his own air force, Parson cannot afford to win the coming battle if it costs him the war.

Can Ansom/Vinny/Jillian's air force actually take out Stanley's air force? I was under the impression that Ansom was setting up a siege to draw the dwagons out to be chewed up by a mix of air to air (Jillian's Top Gwiffins and the ORLYs and maybe Charlie's Archons) and surface to air (assorted elves, assorted ballista).

Then once the dwagons were eliminated, Ansom would drive up to and/or under the walls to take GK.

Parson can't be too quick to sacrifice a dwagon or three, but he can't hold them at Gobwin Knob forever, either. Breaking the back of the Coalition might give Stanley the breathing room to finish building whatever it is that he's building.

Then Parson will probably go from defensive to offensive mode.

[Drakron]

The Air force cannot reach it in time ... some air units can but you are missing the purpose, IF they go to help the attacking force they CANNOT help the Column allowing another run at the Siege weapons with near impunity and as said they cannot afford another "victory" like the last raid and that is why Ansom had to destroy the A group of Dwagons or its Warlords before Gobwin Knob turn started, they believed they had a shoot at then as they never had.

This is strategy, not who wins more battles ... the loss of all B group Dwagons is acceptable in return of destroying 80%-100% of the enemy Siege capability.

[Gdrad]

Yo darkgolem:

Ansom is about to get hit from three directions at once, maybe more. Right now, he has twelve dwagons directly to the left and right of him, nineteen wounded but warlord augmented behind him, and the remaining thirty in the party platter (if I did the math right) in front of him.

This is vs. several gumps, woodsy elves, and whatever powers Vinny, Ansom and the Arkenpliers possess.

I hate mixing games, but to me this is 61 Protoss scouts (dwagons) and three hero units (the three uncroaked warlords) vs. about three to five (maybe more) Marine squads (woodsy elves) backed up by 5-10 Goliaths (forest gumps), and the two hero units of Ansom and Vinny.

My money is on the Protoss.

Bad comparison. Scouts suck vs ground. They do far more damage against air. Where as dwagons seem about equal. Comparison would be more apt if it where battlecruisers + 3 hero units.

[BRC]

It looks like Ansom and Vinnie are really booped now. I figure there must be some they will escape as it is unlikely that two main characters will be eliminated this early in the story. Wondering how they will do it makes me come back for more.

My theory is that the gumps and woodsy elves will be reduced to redshirt status and will all die a bubble gummy death.Ansom will get wounded, and vinny will escape

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Bad comparison. Scouts suck vs ground. They do far more damage against air. Where as dwagons seem about equal. Comparison would be more apt if it where battlecruisers + 3 hero units.

Like I said, I hate mixing games. I should have though of the battlecruisers instead of the scouts.

Maybe a mix of 19 battlecruisers (the A dwagons) and 42 Wraiths (the B dwagons) vs. the terran units I listed before. Does that do it for you?

[Gdrad]

Wraiths are also very weak vs ground, but that combo does seem like it would work. *laugh*

[rosebud]

I sure hope Parson has something big planned, because his tactics are needlessly complex. He could simply have stacked all his dwagons, wounded and otherwise, over that lake hex. Next turn, he could strike the siege again with impunity.

Had he done that, there would have been more protection of the siege and there would have been less impunity.

I gather that Parson's plan is to smash Ansom's force next turn. Given that, it's obvious to me what Ansom's best move is: he attacks one of the two 4-dwagon stacks adjacent to him, and flies Jillian and the Archons into his stack to bolster the defense.

Attacking a neighboring stack of dragons would lower Ansoms hit and make him that much more vulnerable.

I LOVE the picture showing Vinnie holding his two hands in a pincer formation to explain what is happening. He's that side's best bet at the moment, and I'm curious what he'll come up with. It would be great if he could be recruited for Team Stanley.

[Scientivore]

Spoiler

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Interestingly, Sizemore keeps trying to learn new magics, despite every indication that he's only good for one (unpleasant) type. That desire, that longing to be something more - I think Sizemore is a prime candidate to attune to the Arkenpliers. Stanley's giant ego and sense of entitlement is probably what gives him the ability to control the Arkenhammer. In a more modest way, I think Sizemore has the potential to rise above himself, and that's what I think the TitanTools are sensitive to.

(literary analysis within)

Spoiler

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I made some posts relatively early on looking at how each main character could be taken as standing for a different failure of self-will. I think that Sizemore represents neuroticism. He's too humble -- and spends his time in unfocused, ineffective ways as a result. He needs to accept himself as he is first, get confident and comfortable in his own skin before he can move on to greater things.

In that same vein, I can see why the Arkenhammer attuned to Stanley and why it was a mistake: his titanic ego has led him to nearly fully actualize his self-will...and has also prevented him from taking the crucial final step of doing the same thing for a metaperson that he participates in. As Overlord, he's in the perfect position to do that; yet he's still just wielding all of his power and authority for the greater Stanley, the rest of GK be booped. He only spent the treasury on summoning Parson to keep Ansom from getting it! Pathetic.

[darkgolem]

Yo darkgolem:

Ansom is about to get hit from three directions at once, maybe more. Right now, he has twelve dwagons directly to the left and right of him, nineteen wounded but warlord augmented behind him, and the remaining thirty in the party platter (if I did the math right) in front of him.

This is vs. several gumps, woodsy elves, and whatever powers Vinny, Ansom and the Arkenpliers possess.

I hate mixing games, but to me this is 61 Protoss scouts (dwagons) and three hero units (the three uncroaked warlords) vs. about three to five (maybe more) Marine squads (woodsy elves) backed up by 5-10 Goliaths (forest gumps), and the two hero units of Ansom and Vinny.

My money is on the Protoss.

They wont be all at once though, it will be "a stack attacks, resolve." "A stack attacks, resolve", etc. Even with a limit to the number of stacks of 8 in a hex, it is irrelevant that they are coming from two different direction, unless the game has facing.

[BRC]

They wont be all at once though, it will be "a stack attacks, resolve." "A stack attacks, resolve", etc. Even with a limit to the number of stacks of 8 in a hex, it is irrelevant that they are coming from two different direction, unless the game has facing.

maybe there is such thing as a flanking bonus? where if you attack from one side, then from the opposite side in the same turn, the second attack gains a bonus

[Scientivore]

I remember something like that in Panzer General and Fantasy General. I think that it was a defense reduction for each neighboring enemy-controlled hex beyond the first or something along those lines.

[throx]

I don't think Parson is going to get Ansom or Vinnie, and I don't think Parson was really aiming for that. What his primary goal will be is to destroy all of Ansom's forest capable units in a strike from the A dwagons. That gives him almost free reign in any forest hex with his fliers and makes the seige column a *lot* more vulnerable to attacks that Ansom simply won't be able to counter.

In short, without the forest units to worry about, Parson can pick his attack points in the column at will and not have to worry about counterattack.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

They wont be all at once though, it will be "a stack attacks, resolve." "A stack attacks, resolve", etc. Even with a limit to the number of stacks of 8 in a hex, it is irrelevant that they are coming from two different direction, unless the game has facing.

True, and although it's been a while since I've played tabletop strategy, Parson's "Attack and Withdraw Strategy" means that no matter what, Ansom is going to take quite a beating. Right now, there are five stacks of six dwagons at full strength about to start hitting hitting him from the left AND the right. Some games have flanking rules, such as if you are threatened by one hex, you take a penalty when defending if you are threatened by another hex. Right now, the attack matrix isn't looking very good for Ansom, he's gonna need a LOT of sixes.

Then there are the 19 wounded ones that can cycle in, so is Parson going to use 3 stacks of 6 with one left over, or two stacks of 8, with 3 left over? But no matter what, Parson has totally pwned Ansom!

[Overdark]

Parson is in a position where he can use his Mathmancy device to determine the best attack that causes the most damage for the least cost.

Before He would have been stupid to attack a strong group like Ansom's since Warlords don't like fair fights. But now with the Mathmancy Device, he will know before hand how "Fair" the fight will be and may go ahead and attack Ansom anyway. Especialy if he can Hit and Croak Ansom and make off with the ArkenPliers.

Additionaly, Parson can now defeat any Hair-Brained Scheme Stanley comes up with by saying, "Ansom may be expecting that." or "Thats what Ansom wants you to do."

[DreadArchon]

Yay! Hamster is catching on to dealing with Tool!

[Caledonian]

How ironic is it that "The Siege of Gobwin Knob" is likely to end before Gobwin Knob ever becomes besieged?

[tomaO2]

Well, it's not a total suprise about the lake. I did notice it in the Ansom map after all but I dismissed this possibility because this plan of Parson's just seemed so counter intuitive to me. I seriously, SERIOUSLY, don't get how this is a good idea. I'm reading the comments but the whole thing just seems so counter intuitive...

As far as I can see, forrest units should be a lower priority then seige or other heavy units. Indeed forrest units will be much less effective once they reach Gobwin Knob then other types due to their somewhat specilized nature. Vinnie and Ansom at least (though maybe not the forrest warlord) should also be able to get back to the main army. I can't believe that they would have let themselves be trapped by killing the dwagons that were suppost to be in the middle hex and the commander units are the only units I'd be interested that are in the forrest.

Losing 3 or possibly 7 dwagons (depending on if Ansom attacks another dwagon stack) attack again to kill forrest units seems waistful with what I currently know. I hope this confusion will be cleared up soon

As far as I can see, staying over the lake hexes without all this fake, forrest, fort stuff is the way to go.

[ChowGuy]

From my experience, that's an unusual rule mechanic for flying units in either tabletop or computer wargames--usually a unit that is "out of gas" must land voluntarily or be destroyed when it lands involuntarily.

Not so unusual though in fantasy games where flying units don't require "fuel" or "engines" but rather fly by PFM. If you think about it, a Dwagon's wings can't possibbly support it in the first place, and yet, they fly. Similar mechanics can be seen elsewhere. In AoW for example, where non-ranged ground units cannot attack fliers, a single summoned Eagle can under the rules hold an entire city. This is of course exploitable, and hence usually disallowed by "house rules" but I don't think we can or should expect either Parson or Stanley to play by anything except book rules.

[Ubiq]

Let's see... Ansom has four stacks of gumps, one stack of Woodsy elves, and a stack of bats along with Tarfu and Vinnie.

Parson's options here that I can see are:

1. Hit the rest of the seige as planned and return home. Without siege, the fortifications should make Stanley's troop strength roughly equivalent to Ansom's. Probably the safest option, though Stanley probably wouldn't like it. Seems a bit safe for Parson as well.

2. Surgically hit the bats and whatever else before retreating. Risky, but eliminates Jetstone close scouting. From then on, Ansom would have to use units from the flying column for scouting, either using individual units that could be picked off like Jillian was earlier or larger groups that ultimately weaken his air cover. That or he would have to forego scouting altogether, which isn't an attractive option either. The downside is that bringing uncroaked warlords into close contact with Ansom is probably not a good idea and slaughtering the bats would open them to attacks from the other units. If this was out in the open, then it'd probably be a better choice as the Gumps probably couldn't attack flying units in a grassy hex.

3. Surgically strike the siege while throwing the stacks without warlords at Ansom. Might not be such a great idea as the dwagons might well focus on the bats or Woodsy elves instead of the Gumps and warlords. The bats could especially be dangerous as they pose no real threat to the dwagons by all appearances, but the dwagons will still waste time killing them. It would prove costly to both sides and might well get the job done, but seems a waste of resources.

4. Swarm Ansom with everything available in an effort to take him out along with all of his forest capable units and the bulk of his scouting. This would be Stanley's choice, but might not be the best option for the same issues that plague options two and three.

Decisions, decisions... really, the best result for Parson would be if Ansom, Tarfu, and Vinnie fled with their remaining move. Then he could slaughter the remaining units much more efficiently.

[fruityjanitor]

We know what happens when the Chief Warlord gets killed. King Stately will get the chance to promote another warlord, and the fight goes on.

This has probably been said before (I don't have time to read the rest of the posts) but what if Jillian becomes the new Chief Warlord?

That would be pretty cool... but probably a bad move on the King's part since Jillian is a little too reckless to be a good Chief Warlord.

If Ansom gets croaked/captured and Vinnie somehow survives, he would be a good choice for next Chief Warlord... Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

[DreadArchon]

That would be pretty cool... but probably a bad move on the King's part since Jillian is a little too reckless to be a good Chief Warlord.

And, y'know, batting for the other team...