Puzzle and Dragons in the Playground XVII: Cross Your Hearts and Make Things Die

[Fax Celestis]

So I got (and hypered) a Yuna. Having a weird time coming up with a decent set of subs for her though. I'm currently trying out Yuna//LKali/LBastet/ADQXQ/Paimon//Yuna.

[Anarion]

So I got (and hypered) a Yuna. Having a weird time coming up with a decent set of subs for her though. I'm currently trying out Yuna//LKali/LBastet/ADQXQ/Paimon//Yuna.

Like, the FF collab character? She doesn't strike me as very good. Why not just lead the LKali?

[gooddragon1]

I mean, I kind of get it? I mean, all of us by now have farming teams with a collection of True Damage active skills to push-button through weds/fri/tamas/tans.

And there's degenerate teams like the Awilda/Puppeteer nonsense.

The frustrating part (for me) is an apparent fundamental misunderstanding of the game's mechanics, and suggestions for monsters which will harm the game's core play. And an unwillingness to actually learn or engage with the game itself to find out this basic stuff.

For real, if all you want to do is lazy your way through dungeons, gooddragon, just download PuzzCombo and let it solve all the boards for you.

I'm not sure I could follow the directions puzzcombo gives very efficiently. I actually tried to run Pad on an emulator so I could use cheat engine to freeze my hp and then set cooldowns to 0, but no emulator will work. I'm happy enough with my 70k autodamage output. Maybe someday I'll become good enough to use the 6x for 8 combos multiplier that DRava gives.

Also, Aizen was apparently underpowered...

Aizen
* +500 HP
* Added 3rd Time Extend and Bind Recovery awakes
* LS buffed to 6x ATK to Dark cards and 2x RCV to Water cards (up from 1.5x RCV Water). 2x ATK for every cross Dark.

You know, if they gave Aizen 1.5x HP and 1.5x RCV for water instead of 2x RCV, I think he might have met Anarion's criterion for a omniclearing content lead...

So, as it is, I currently have 39 stones with Aizen's name on them when that thing comes to the US. I expect to have at least 50.

EDIT: Yeah, that Awilda thing... that is pretty funny.

Used to be you needed 10 combos to get a 10x multiplier. Now it's a dark cross for 12x (and 6x for free). Gogo team darkwater (with a stronger lead than zwei now).

[Anarion]

Also, Aizen was apparently underpowered...

Aizen
* +500 HP
* Added 3rd Time Eextend and Bind Recovery awakes
* LS buffed to 6x ATK to Dark cards and 2x RCV to Water cards (up from 1.5x RCV Water). 2x ATK for every cross Dark.

You know, if they gave Aizen 1.5x HP and 1.5x RCV for water instead of 2x RCV, I think he might have met Anarion's criterion for a omniclearing content lead...

Actually, this is a good leaping off point for talking about some principles of game design, so I'm going to do that. See, here's the thing. Aizen does NOT have 1.5x HP and that lack is absolutely critical to the balance of PAD. And yes, you can say "because that would be OP" and call it a day, but I think it's interesting to actually discuss the reason why power creep is bad and why Aizen without the hp buff is just fine in a little more detail.

So, first off, what's the goal of PAD? Don't say to make money, yes, true, but more fundamentally, the goal is for the player to put together a team of monsters that, combined with their puzzle skill, can beat all the monsters in a dungeon, and ultimately for the player to clear every dungeon in the game and get a full collection of monsters. That's fun stuff, it appeals to collectors, to people like me who like practicing a skill for mastery, and to creative folks who like figuring out the best way to tackle a new dungeon.

That last, the creative people, is particularly important for PAD. If every dungeon were simply a game of numbers that could be cleared by a team with enough levels and a player with enough combo skill, the game would be boring and, worse, there would be no reason to try and get new monsters, which breaks one of the primary gameplay loops (farm stuff to level stuff, to farm stuff to level stuff ad infinatum). When there's a lot of enemy variety and option variety for the player, building a team becomes a really fun exercise that also increases the importance of a good collection of monsters and extends the gameplay time before Gungho needs to release new content exponentially because each new monster represents a few hundred stamina in leveling and evolution materials.

In other words, it's really important for PAD to have variety in what monsters are best for each dungeon. It encourages creative players to join the game and keeps people interested in the same quantity of content for a much longer time.

This leads us to why Aizen shouldn't have bonus hp. One of the ways they've added monster variety in PAD is by creating variety in leader skills and thus in team styles. Some leaders have very high damage. Some leaders have impressive HP. Some have impressive sustain. Some are easier to execute, some are more difficult but offer higher rewards when executed successfully. Myr, for example, offers 50% damage reduction (equivalent to double hp and double healing) and 7.7x attack when you make a heart cross. The "make a cross of stuff" meta is new and considered one of the tougher execution skills because you need 5 orbs in a formation that disrupts easy comboing (the easiest way to combo a 30 orb field field is 2 horizontal combos, 3 vertical combos in each half). Despite the difficulty, Myr actually is one of the best leaders right now because they've given her so much in exchange for that degree of difficulty. Aizen, on the other hand, gets a 6x multiplier without the need to do anything but match 3 orbs of the right color. If he also gave you significant bonus hp and recover, he would be make the degree of difficulty in executing Myr seem pointless. At that point, the only way that Gungho could get the average player to use anything else would be to create new leaders with even higher damage in exchange for good execution or new leaders that offer even more hp and recover for good execution. And if you do that, you have to also release new dungeons with even higher numbers that make that new stuff necessary. And that's sudden and problematic power creep.

Power creep can be problematic because it annuls previous work. Something that was once the best now becomes relatively useless because something new does everything it did but better. Some amount of power creep is okay. If new things don't improve on the existing setup at all, nobody will want them and the game stagnates. But power creep should be slow and cautious. Ideally, you come up with new ways to do things and create alternatives that are good in some situations and not others, which then allows players to partake in that creative team building exercise that's good for the health of the game. Even when you do something like Aizen where you power creep the ease of base damage comboing only 3 orbs, you want to creep that as slowly as possible, and that's why he doesn't get bonus hp. As a lead who offers just damage (and a bit of healing), Aizen competes with a vast array of different styles of glass cannon, where one can select from among them based on color and quality of subs. But other leads that offer defense or a balance of offense and defense remain not superior but rather completely different, offering the player choice between these different characteristics as well as improvement if they step up their degree of difficulty.

I'm sure that eventually if PAD lasts long enough, the base lead from some ultimate zenith evolution form in the far future will offer triple hp, triple healing, and 20x damage as base stats. But for now, variety, small incremental improvements, and rewards for more difficult execution are the way to go to keep PAD healthy as a game.

[obryn]

Myr is also an interesting case in design because she - just like Super Ra Dragon - is farmable. (Yes, you can indeed farm MP.) This is a pretty crazy development for PAD, putting the top leaders behind hard near-endgame content.

Don't get me wrong, their top teams still require crazy REM investment. It's still a huge change.

[Rynjin]

Finally crushed and enslaved Cuachemar. Now to wait until Friday so I can nab a Dub-Mythlit and to feed him to Parvati to Awaken her inner power.

[Anarion]

Myr is also an interesting case in design because she - just like Super Ra Dragon - is farmable. (Yes, you can indeed farm MP.) This is a pretty crazy development for PAD, putting the top leaders behind hard near-endgame content.

Don't get me wrong, their top teams still require crazy REM investment. It's still a huge change.

I think they figure that a) if you put that much time into getting those leaders, you're probably gonna buckle and give them some cash to supplement your team and b) you do need either a lot of luck or to spend that cash to get the ideal team to really make those leaders shine.

*quietly brushes his triple DKali under a carpet*

[Jurai]

I got my wife into PAD. Her first REM pull was Phoenix Rider.

[Fax Celestis]

Like, the FF collab character? She doesn't strike me as very good. Why not just lead the LKali?

4 colors (or 3+H) plus 9 combos is 144x for Yuna. She's pretty awesome. She was pretty uninspiring pre-ult, but her new ult is fantastic.

[gooddragon1]

I got my wife into PAD. Her first REM pull was Phoenix Rider.

Shoulda waited for the player's choice fest coming soon imo :/

Personally, I like Urd the most.

Spoiler: In Fact... (Broken)

Show

Urd, gooddragon1's Best Bud
Attributes: Fire/Water
Types: Attacker/Dragon
HPS: 4000
ATK: 4000
RCV: 4000
Awakenings: 9 Two Prong
Active Skill: Same as normal Urd
Leader Skill: Fire attribute cards ATK x4, HP 1.5x, RCV 1.5x. ATK x2.5 at 5 combos +0.5x per combo up to 4x at 8 combos.

[obryn]

I got my wife into PAD. Her first REM pull was Phoenix Rider.

Shoulda waited for the player's choice fest coming soon imo :/

...believe it or not, this is actual good advice. If she hasn't made it far, encourage re-rolling then.

Personally, I like Urd the most.

Spoiler: In Fact... (Broken)

Show

Urd, gooddragon1's Best Bud
Attributes: Fire/Water
Types: Attacker/Dragon
HPS: 4000
ATK: 4000
RCV: 4000
Awakenings: 9 Two Prong
Active Skill: Same as normal Urd
Leader Skill: Fire attribute cards ATK x4, HP 1.5x, RCV 1.5x. ATK x2.5 at 5 combos +0.5x per combo up to 4x at 8 combos.

I started enumerating all the ways in which that card doesn't work, but just got depressed at the idea that you don't even care to know enough about the game's mechanics to understand even the first part of all the problems with it.

Urd's good though? So we agree there? She's a key Red sub for a whole lot of teams.

[obryn]

Also, Revo Minerva is the real deal. Previously, I was having issues reliably solo-farming Myr (I could, but it was slow going), but she makes it amazingly simple and almost brainless. If the Green Tan doesn't kill me on the first level, nothing else is even a threat.

[Anarion]

...believe it or not, this is actual good advice. If she hasn't made it far, encourage re-rolling then.

Something something broken clock sometimes being right.

Urd's good though? So we agree there? She's a key Red sub for a whole lot of teams.

Also, Revo Minerva is the real deal. Previously, I was having issues reliably solo-farming Myr (I could, but it was slow going), but she makes it amazingly simple and almost brainless. If the Green Tan doesn't kill me on the first level, nothing else is even a threat.

I'm going to reply to these together because they have the same response from me. Urd is amazing, appears on every red team I run, but as a leader and consistent farmer, Krishna has totally invalidated her. 20k more hp, slightly better healing, and 3x the damage of the Urd team, albeit with steeper orb requirements (but honestly, you were gonna stack orbs to get damage out of Urd anyway).

Krishna is also a perfect Myr farmer. You start out with enough hp that you don't die to green tan plus dark girl hit on floor 1, and once he levels, you've got all the hp you need to tank everything else including Myr's assorted hits.

[obryn]

I'm going to reply to these together because they have the same response from me. Urd is amazing, appears on every red team I run, but as a leader and consistent farmer, Krishna has totally invalidated her. 20k more hp, slightly better healing, and 3x the damage of the Urd team, albeit with steeper orb requirements (but honestly, you were gonna stack orbs to get damage out of Urd anyway).

Krishna is also a perfect Myr farmer. You start out with enough hp that you don't die to green tan plus dark girl hit on floor 1, and once he levels, you've got all the hp you need to tank everything else including Myr's assorted hits.

Yeah, Urd is certainly much more of a sub than a lead - though for a new player she's certainly solid enough there too!

If I had a Krishna, I'd be running Krishna, you know? I got my 1350 day bonus () and have been collecting stones, so I'll have 4 free pulls this time around, at a minimum. Maybe I'll pick him up!

My solution to Green Tan is generally either Phoenix Rider or just straight up bringing along A. Ra. He matches the color profile, and I've 297'd him already. After that, the Wicked Lady can't do a thing to me with 75% dark resist.

[Anarion]

Yeah, Urd is certainly much more of a sub than a lead - though for a new player she's certainly solid enough there too!

My primary team evolution was Vishnu-->Urd-->Ashiva-->[screen explodes with laser chickens, Chinese flowers, and ultimate evo Indians]

If I had a Krishna, I'd be running Krishna, you know?

What? I would never take the opportunity to rub in one of the few advantages I have over someone who's been playing the game years longer than me! How dare you accuse me of such a thing, good sir!

[gooddragon1]

...believe it or not, this is actual good advice. If she hasn't made it far, encourage re-rolling then.


I started enumerating all the ways in which that card doesn't work, but just got depressed at the idea that you don't even care to know enough about the game's mechanics to understand even the first part of all the problems with it.

Urd's good though? So we agree there? She's a key Red sub for a whole lot of teams.

I just have fond memories of Urd beating KotG and using prongs to do it. Prongs are fun.

[obryn]

What? I would never take the opportunity to rub in one of the few advantages I have over someone who's been playing the game years longer than me! How dare you accuse me of such a thing, good sir!

:D

I don't think I've been playing all that much longer than you, anymore!

I just have fond memories of Urd beating KotG and using prongs to do it. Prongs are fun.

Yeah, Urd is awesome. But prongs work exponentially.

[gooddragon1]

Yeah, Urd is awesome. But prongs work exponentially.

1.5^9=38.443359375

So if you made 2 sets of 4 you're looking at x1477.891880035400390625

x1477 x16 (for 2 4x multipliers) = 23632 * 4000 ATK = 94,528,000 which is well below the 2 billion ish overflow danger threshold.

[obryn]

1.5^9=38.443359375

So if you made 2 sets of 4 you're looking at x1477.891880035400390625

x1477 x16 (for 2 4x multipliers) = 23632 * 4000 ATK = 94,528,000 which is well below the 2 billion ish overflow danger threshold.

No, each of the x38.4's is separate.

But that means your base damage with a single prong - that is, with a single extra orb - is x38.4. That's simply absurd. And that's before your leader skill.

[gooddragon1]

No, each of the x38.4's is separate.

But that means your base damage with a single prong - that is, with a single extra orb - is x38.4. That's simply absurd. And that's before your leader skill.

That's how much I love prongs. I know it's broken, but I dunno. Maybe a leader skill that did something exciting when you prong could be cool I guess.

[obryn]

That's how much I love prongs. I know it's broken, but I dunno. Maybe a leader skill that did something exciting when you prong could be cool I guess.

There are leaders who have a minimum vanish count of 4, giving higher multipliers but restricting you to prongs at a minimum.

The fixed team challenge dungeon had one.

[gooddragon1]

There are leaders who have a minimum vanish count of 4, giving higher multipliers but restricting you to prongs at a minimum.

The fixed team challenge dungeon had one.

Maybe something like reduce enemy buffs by 1 Turn when matching 4...

Also 75 magic stones with Aizen's name on them. Soon to be 80.

[obryn]

I got 2014's and 2015's top picks with Lu Bu and Akechi.

I guess Akechi is still good for inheritance.

[Starwulf]

I got 2014's and 2015's top picks with Lu Bu and Akechi.

I guess Akechi is still good for inheritance.

I got Andromeda and Salamander. Andromeda seems decent, but how useful is she really? Especially since I have 2x Sarsvati and 3x Gabriels.

[obryn]

I got Andromeda and Salamander. Andromeda seems decent, but how useful is she really? Especially since I have 2x Sarsvati and 3x Gabriels.

Andromeda is the best sub in her class. Her Active skill is top-notch, and she has a fantastic set of Awoken skills. She occupies a really similar space to Gabriel, but packs more useful stuff instead of Gabriel's abundance of auto-heals. She's also a solid lead, in NepDra's league.

(Also, it makes a lot of sense to have one Gabriel and one Andromeda. Either way you're eating Light orbs, but you're getting Water from different sources.)

Salamander can probably be eaten for +orbs unless you need that 3k MP. I can't believe that nonsense is still in the REM.

[Rynjin]

I got Sanada Yukimura, I have no idea if he evolves into anything good, but I like the art.

Going to do a bit of Team Challenge grinding and cash in my Google Survey Rewards later for at least one more pull.

[obryn]

I got Sanada Yukimura, I have no idea if he evolves into anything good, but I like the art.

Sananda is a quite excellent Red sub, particularly on Row teams.

Sadly he won't work for my new favorite Revo Minerva team, since he eats Light orbs.

[Jurai]

I got Sanada Yukimura, I have no idea if he evolves into anything good, but I like the art.

Going to do a bit of Team Challenge grinding and cash in my Google Survey Rewards later for at least one more pull.

I've evolved mine into the Fire/Dark Dreadful Warrior, Sanada Yukimura, who works better as a leader than a sub, unlike the Fire/Fire Patriot Warrior, Sanada Yukimura, but I honestly wanted more access to good Dark damage over bonkers fire damage, which I had even before I evolved him, thanks to (at the time) Awoken Shiva and friend lead Awoken Shiva. With Reincarnated Shiva's BONKERS total multiplier (x3.5 Attack with seven combos, plus x2 Attack for all Fire element monsters, or, when paired with another RShiva, 12.25 Attack with seven combos, plus x4 Attack for all Fire element monsters, giving me a total of x49 attack on optimal play, plus any TPAs and Rows I match, as well as any enhanced orb multipliers (42 Enhanced Fire Orbs gives me a multiplier of x4.75, for what it's worth)), I need access to more elements, so I can run my RShiva team through Rainbow Dungeons.

[Rynjin]

I've been trying to set up a Shiva team for a while, but haven't been able to get Theurgia to do it. The Grimoires dungeon is a struggle for me, and the time I DID beat it I got Armadel instead. =/

Good to know he's a solid sub though. Maybe he'll work well with Ronia too? The Dreadful Warrior one is a Devil, looks like.

[Jurai]

I've been trying to set up a Shiva team for a while, but haven't been able to get Theurgia to do it. The Grimoires dungeon is a struggle for me, and the time I DID beat it I got Armadel instead. =/

Good to know he's a solid sub though. Maybe he'll work well with Ronia too? The Dreadful Warrior one is a Devil, looks like.

Correct. God and Devil types.