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Thread: Meta-theory about Belkar
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2016-09-04, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Meta-theory about Belkar
In the campaign that Order of the Stick is set in, Belkar's player is a problem player, and the DM is trying to teach him to cooperate with the group more and be less disruptive.
Evidence:
1. The vision Belkar had from Lord Shojo telling him to be more of a team player. It was established in one strip (IIRC) that Shojo was an author avatar for the DM.
2. The oracle predicting Belkar's death. Might be because the other players felt that they couldn't continue on with Belkar disrupting everything and wanted Belkar's player to roll a new, less disruptive character.
3. The fact that he's chaotic evil, while the party leader is lawful good.
4. Killing that random gnome who wasn't an opponent, and having Hayley tell him in character that the gnome was just there for "flavor."
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2016-09-04, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
I believe I detect a problem with this line of reasoning.
(Someone else can point out the problem with "we all want that character gone" getting neither "okay, Belkar's-Hypothetical-Jerk-Player, make a new character right now or leave" nor "I'm not acknowledging the OOC problem, deal with it IC" nor even "I'll give you a time limit in which to change Belkar, Belkar's-Hypothetical-Jerk-Player" but "okay, his death will be inevitable and take up to one in-game year."
I will, however, spell out: No, nothing except some forum posters ever said Shojo was an avatar for the DM, or that there is a DM.)Last edited by Kish; 2016-09-04 at 12:51 PM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2016-09-04, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-09-06, 04:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
Just gonna add Panel 10 for those wanting to look it up.
Geez, what is it with that guy and needing to figure out all the fiddly little details?
I know, right? It's called "Suspension of Disbelief"...
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2016-09-06, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
Yeah, the biggest problem with this theory is it relies on the Order being a party playing a game of D&D, which has been said to not be true by the Giant both in and out of the strip.
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2016-09-06, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
I actually don't agree that if this were a game that he would be a problem character. To me a problem character is a person who is willing to sacrifice other player's fun for their own. I don't think Belkar actually has done this. He get's in the way of the characters doing stuff yes but when important stuff starts he falls in line pretty quick. Belkar never really tries to derail the game in any meaningful way. He suggests violent solutions but allows the party to overrule him. A problem character would not be as content not getting his own way.
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2016-09-06, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
While it is true that Belkar is displaying a number of the classic behaviors associated with the PC of a stereotypical Problem Player, ultimately Belkar is just a character who acts that way because it is fun to have intraparty conflict in this tale.
IMNSHO, the genuine real deal meta-level Problem Player is...The Snarl.
Imagine a high school gaming club with a few parallel and intertwined D&D campaigns. One Problem Player manages to cause the acrimony to rise by pouring gasoline on all the fires, until he actually causes a big blow up that grinds all gaming to a halt, then storms out of the room. One of the DMs (the lost pantheon) outright leaves the gaming club in disgust. Eventually, the remaining DMs restart their games with a hodgepodge of rules to keep things running smoothly enough (sort of). The Problem Player is still a member of the gaming club, but he is shunted out of the running D&D campaigns. Is that actually a sustainable solution? What if the Problem Player tries to "claw" his way back into a campaign? If shut out, what does he do? Does he try a hand at DMing himself? Or does he plot revenge and try to destroy the campaigns by indirect means?I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2016-09-06, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
That is a good point. A real Problem Player would, say, kill Shojo because it would honk off the other players and cause the DM a headache that requires quick on the fly railroading to get the game moving in the right direction.
Belkar never crosses the line with behavior that could cause the party or campaign to fail, even if sometimes he puts ten fuzzy toes over the line.
Arguably, Elan causes the bigger real problems. DM: "Oh, crap. They destroyed the Gate before they could stumble on the clues about the backstory that would get them moving to the next Gate. Screw it. I will drag them there kicking and screaming. A Paladin is someone who the heavies will hesitate to kill, and will be usefully annoying."I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2016-09-06, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
Meanwhile one of the remaining DMs becomes disgruntled because no one wants to play in her campaign. She then devises an elaborate plan that will use the threat of the Problem Player to trick the other DMs to integrate their players into her campaign...
Unfortunately for her, one group of players has caught on to her scheme and now have to try and prevent a mass-campaign-destruction by the other DMs.
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2016-09-06, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
Like, say, setting fire to the bandit camp while the other party members explicitly tell him they don't want to? Or killing the oracle, which got him pretty much kicked out of the Order by Haley?
There are moments when Belkar really messes things up. If there were players behind these characters (which there aren't), those are not actions his fellow players would like.
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2016-09-06, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
I can't remember if it's in one of the books or elsewhere, but I think the Giant has explicitly said the Snarl is a metaphor for the strife between players that can tear gaming groups apart. Or maybe I just read someone else suggest that and thought it was so good I've internalized it as meta-canon.
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2016-09-06, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
I've always considered the Snarl as a metaphor for Continuity Snarl.
But inter-player strife is a lot deeper, so sure, I'll go for that.
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2016-09-06, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2016-09-07, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2016-10-05, 07:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
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2016-10-05, 07:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2016-10-05, 09:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-10-05, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
The universe (same as, say, the universe enforces only 9 possible alignments). Or if you need something more specific, narrativium: the universal force that fits people into stories (as seen also in the 500 kingdom series and Discworld)
They can tell, just like they can tell that they've gained skill points. Unless you are in deep denial like Tarquin.
GWInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2016-10-05, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-10-05, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
Unless you say that whenever you read a novel, see a movie, or consume any work of fiction, this amounts to saying "I find OotS breaking the fourth wall mightily confusing in ways which I'm going to misblame on it having a D&D basis."
You know who chose the protagonists of the story. The person who always does--the author. Rich could have written a D&D-based graphic novel with a solid fourth wall, in which none of the characters knew the concept, or a non-D&D-based graphic novel which involved breaking the fourth wall and having characters say "I'm a protagonist!"--more often than they do, that is.
(Now, Tarquin is a perfect illustration of the varying types of stories Grey Wolf refers to below: He knows he's an NPC, and he knows he's an antagonist, but he's misidentified his role as "main villain in a grim father vs. son epic.")Last edited by Kish; 2016-10-05 at 09:55 AM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2016-10-05, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
I disagree on your definition of protagonist (which I'd describe as "the universe is centering a story on them" - the story need not be "a greater purpose" - for all they might know, they're going to be a sitcom about unlikely buddies), but yes.
GWInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2016-10-05, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
I'm not sure I'd ascribe that to D&D per se- I think 4th wall meta-awareness could happen in any story, so that's a separate topic.
Do the OOTS actually refer to themselves out loud as PCs? They do seem to know about NPCs, which I guess might just be being genre savvy. Just struck me as odd, is all.
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2016-10-05, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
There's at least one strip (forget which one) where a character says "I don't want anybody trying to be a PC out there!" when giving a pep-talk to his soldiers, so everyone seems to know about the distinction. If it helps, just imagine them saying "Adventurer" instead of "PC" when they say it!
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2016-10-05, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
"Adventurer"'s no good--there are a lot of NPC adventurers (including Xykon, Redcloak, the Linear Guild, the Vector Legion, that warlock in the bar...).
There's no inside-the-fourth-wall concept that fits, but "protagonist" does.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2016-10-05, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2016-10-05, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2016-10-05, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
On the NPCs-calling-PCs-"PCs" front, there's Xykon in the last panel of 370, too. It's slightly removed from PCs-calling-themselves-"PCs", though.
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2016-10-05, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
I have always envisioned the players of the party as a group of mature adults, and Belkar is the little brother of one of the players, and everyone is forced to tolerate him ... for a year, until he finally graduates highschool and leaves for college.
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2016-10-05, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
i've no idea if it's true or not. but you could theoretically claim that the vector legion and the order of the scribble WERE PC's at one point, as they did have a visible plot and story centered around them (Take over the western continent and seal the rifts respectively) but that story is now finished and in the past, so they are NPC's now.
Linear Guild is a different story, as it both only occours as a foil to the order, and didn't last very long as a whole party.
"PC" could be people who have a story centered around them and a quest to overcome. when that is finished, or if it never began, they are NPC's.Avy by Thormag
Spoiler
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2016-10-05, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Meta-theory about Belkar
It's a dirty job, but some PC has to do it.
PCs know they are PCs the same way people know they are watching a third-act duel. Narrative structures is an actual physical force in Oots-verse, just like magic and DnD rules.I won a thread. Am I pathetic to list that in my signture? Yes. Of course I am.
Awesome avatar is awesome. And made by yldenfrei.