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  1. - Top - End - #1351
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    Man. I started in BC, and can't imagine playing on a BC server.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Oh, I liked the redesign of the world just fine. Getting flying in all areas was fantastic, and the new zones were stupendous. I really loved Azshara, I only wish they'd put in reasons to go back after you finished questing there. Deepholm was also a great standout, with good story and great visuals, and the addition of Scenarios was also, I thought, a good innovation, which I'm sorry they left behind. I feel like they should have kept Scenarios as the '3 man casual queue content' and put Heroics back to 'arranged team' content.
    Weren't Scenarios introduced in Pandaria? And even when Heroics were hard (BC, Cata) I was okay Pugging those, so I don't want to force those back into being "arranged team" necessarily. Speaking personally I succeeded much more often with a good group than I failed with a bad one.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    But even Wrath, which I loved, heralded the beginning of trends that, I feel, were destructive to the health and stability of the game. Chief among them was bifurcating the difficulty of raids. Rather than simply accept that raiding was natively to be a challenging exercise, both logistically and in terms of gameplay, they basically put in a multi-tiered raid system, and of course, added a queue later. This perversely destroyed the relevance of dungeons, which were, in Vanilla, BC, and Wrath, my favorite form of play, which accounts for part of the utter mediocrity of the dungeon experience in later WoW. Simply put, dungeons don't matter anymore. The other part of why modern WoW dungeons are terrible is that they're too small, designed to be run in 15 to 30 minutes. But by turning every dungeon into a mere 'boss alley', it robs the game of any sense of place. What I loved about Vanilla was how Blackrock Depths feels like an actual CITY, which stores and barracks and a prison and a bar. You didn't need to do the whole thing, you could plot your own course, and pick off the bosses you want. Same with Scarlet Monastery, or Razorfen Kraul, or Dire Maul. These places were massive, sprawling edifices to explore, and really made the game feel amazing, and when they all got reduced to a 15 minute loot sprint run by one Mythic geared Druid blowing up everything he glances at, the game just feels pointless.
    And here's where you lost me, but I think you knew that. My low opinion of sprawling, bloated, byzantine, pseudo-raid "dungeons" like BRD is pretty well-documented by now.

    Rather, I'll just point out that I don't think "making raids more accessible" and "making dungeon difficulty trivial" necessarily have to go together. Legion dungeons were actually fun and a little challenging, including staples like "the more difficult optional boss" and "optional thing your group can do to clear the dungeon a little faster that also raises the difficulty." Rather, I think it's LFR that is truly extraneous. If they want something to bridge the gap between 5-mans and raiding, I think Mythic+ serves that role, while being an endgame in its own right, much like Nightfalls do in Destiny.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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  3. - Top - End - #1353
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I think they said at Blizzcon that the classic zones wouldn't scale completely from 10-60; the specific example was something like the Barrens being a 'low-mid' zone and Plaguelands being a 'mid-high' zone. So maybe brackets like 1-10,10-40, 40-60, etc.?
    So when they say "mid-high" zone, they later clarified that that was going to set the minimum level of the zone, while all zones from classic would cap at 60.

    The idea is you want all of the content to scale so you have enough time to finish the content, but you want to keep that feeling of "I've wandered into a place I'm not ready for yet" where you cross that zone boundry and start seeing skull level mobs. Similarly the cap is put in based on expansion level so that you do get that feeling of progression and that content now being trivial to you once you get past the expansion. So while the starter zone might be 1-60, you'll see a place like Darkshire as 20-60, and Plaguelands might be more like 40-60.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


  4. - Top - End - #1354
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    I joined in Cataclysm and I am curious about vanilla servers if not exactly waiting for them. I would welcome a few modifications to normal classic (as I have heard levelling can be quite dull) but I would also be very accepting for pure vanilla servers for those who wanted them for so long. Point is: Without events the content eventually will get stale. Maybe they should roll out 1.0 in the first 6-9 months, then gradually add the other classic patches. But what will happen when you hit the end of classic? Will you then have "history" servers, going through BC onward?
    Quote Originally Posted by MonochromeTiger View Post
    "hello sir, you destroyed our castle for unexplained reasons and then got chased by us (with weapons) all the way to a location where you have a clear advantage and no obvious reason to negotiate. parley?"

  5. - Top - End - #1355
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    They've declined to answer whether they're going to add BC, WotLK and so on servers as well.

    (And I mean "declined to answer," not "acted like they didn't hear the question." So I'm hopeful.)

    If I was in charge of Blizzard, I'd launch one server, named Azeroth, which would be, permanently, in the state the game was in the day before the BC-preparation patch launched; one server, named Outland, which would be, permanently, in the state the game was in the day before the WotLK-preparation patch launched; and one server, named Northrend, which would be, permanently, in the state the game was in the day before the Cataclysm-preparation patch launched. If they were popular enough that I needed to add more servers of that type, than I would, but one of each would do for a start--defined as PvE, and not explicitly RP. I told one of my guildmates about this when Cataclysm was the current expansion and Deathwing wasn't yet available to be fought, so he'll vouch for me having thought of this long ago, if you can track him down. People who wanted Legion's "improvements" could go on playing Legion.

    If people indicated seriously wanting classic PvP servers, not just idly (or fervently) speculating about what Blizzard would do, I'd have one each of those, too.

    If Blizzard does exactly what I just described, I'll play on Classic until the BC server is announced and then not at all (not ever, if they're all announced at the same time), play on the BC server for the foreseeable future, and play (death knights only) on the WotLK server occasionally.

    If their "classic" servers have "let's get to the endgame!" modifications or "get mashed together with other servers!" modifications, then I'll continue not playing WoW in any form.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  6. - Top - End - #1356
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And here's where you lost me, but I think you knew that. My low opinion of sprawling, bloated, byzantine, pseudo-raid "dungeons" like BRD is pretty well-documented by now.
    Maybe BRD was a bit extreme. I would like to see more nonlinear dungeons, though. I would prefer for dungeons that are topologically just fancy decorated tubes with only one path forward to be the minority. Eye of Azshara is a nice design, for instance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harnel View Post
    where is the atropal? and does it have a listed LA?

  7. - Top - End - #1357
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by gomipile View Post
    Maybe BRD was a bit extreme. I would like to see more nonlinear dungeons, though. I would prefer for dungeons that are topologically just fancy decorated tubes with only one path forward to be the minority. Eye of Azshara is a nice design, for instance.
    Something like the Halls of Origination jumps to mind?
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  8. - Top - End - #1358
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by gomipile View Post
    Maybe BRD was a bit extreme. I would like to see more nonlinear dungeons, though. I would prefer for dungeons that are topologically just fancy decorated tubes with only one path forward to be the minority. Eye of Azshara is a nice design, for instance.
    Maybe dungeons which are dungeons instead of glorified monster gauntlets. Yannow, with traps, with switching monster groups. They do not have to be as hard as Zul'Aman and Zul'Gurub Heroics.
    Quote Originally Posted by MonochromeTiger View Post
    "hello sir, you destroyed our castle for unexplained reasons and then got chased by us (with weapons) all the way to a location where you have a clear advantage and no obvious reason to negotiate. parley?"

  9. - Top - End - #1359
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by gomipile View Post
    Maybe BRD was a bit extreme. I would like to see more nonlinear dungeons, though. I would prefer for dungeons that are topologically just fancy decorated tubes with only one path forward to be the minority. Eye of Azshara is a nice design, for instance.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Something like the Halls of Origination jumps to mind?
    See, I loved both of these. And Sunken Temple was probably my favorite pre-Cata dungeon of all time. So I don't mind a little non-linearity/backtracking. But BRD went way past the pale.

    It also made no damn sense. They send just 5 people to assault the entire Dark Iron civilization? That should definitely have been a raid, except the Horde wouldn't really give a crap about what was going on in there, other than maybe freeing some slaves or something?

    You do need some linear dungeons too though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    Maybe dungeons which are dungeons instead of glorified monster gauntlets. Yannow, with traps, with switching monster groups. They do not have to be as hard as Zul'Aman and Zul'Gurub Heroics.
    I'd love things like traps but they're just not as fun with WoW's current engine, where nothing has clipping or a hitbox higher than the floor. The next big fantasy MMO will hopefully be able to have much more diverse challenges than the monsters themselves in each instance.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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  10. - Top - End - #1360
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    except the Horde wouldn't really give a crap about what was going on in there, other than maybe freeing some slaves or something?
    In the old quest, Thrall sent heroes to rescue the dwarf princess as a diplomatic gesture, hoping it would lead to long-term peace, or even a formal treaty, with Ironforge. And of course it backfired because Moira wasn't actually mind-controlled and was more inclined to declare eternal war on those who had killed her husband.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  11. - Top - End - #1361
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    In the old quest, Thrall sent heroes to rescue the dwarf princess as a diplomatic gesture, hoping it would lead to long-term peace, or even a formal treaty, with Ironforge. And of course it backfired because Moira wasn't actually mind-controlled and was more inclined to declare eternal war on those who had killed her husband.
    That's the best excuse they could come up with to get the Horde invested? Yeesh.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    Back before they came up with the "the Horde and the Alliance fighting is explicitly eternal and positive" stuff, potentially going from a tense cold war footing to one of true peace had great value...but yes, Blackrock Mountain's denizens, up to Nefarian and down to Ragnaros, always were much more incidental enemies to the Horde and active enemies to the Alliance.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    BRD is the one dungeon I have never, ever cleared. I keep getting lost in that thing. I once wandered in there on my 90 mage (I had the drill machine remote thing) and while I slaughtered everything I could find, I still missed a lot I just flat out couldnt figure out. I understand that a hallway dungeon that leads you from a to b to c in a straight line can be dull, but geez that was nuts. The worst part is I remember the emperor or king or whatever he was, had a weapon my shaman wanted. It was one of his extremely rare drops, but I never got to fight the guy, let alone farm him. Sunken temple was kinda cool, and I liked the wings of scarlet monastary, but neither of them are quite right, Sunken temple was, "You are in the center chamber. Go to the single room to the north, the single room to the east, west and south, then come back." No real exploration, just go to the hallway till you reach the chamber at the end, then kill the mini boss and come back to travel another hall. Scarlet was like 5 dungeons in the same building, but they were pretty much single hall trips for each of them.
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  14. - Top - End - #1364
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Back before they came up with the "the Horde and the Alliance fighting is explicitly eternal and positive" stuff, potentially going from a tense cold war footing to one of true peace had great value...but yes, Blackrock Mountain's denizens, up to Nefarian and down to Ragnaros, always were much more incidental enemies to the Horde and active enemies to the Alliance.
    See, the Blackrock Orcs I could understand as being a universal threat. They're trying to weaponize dragons after all, and that would have disastrous implications for everybody. I could even see the Dark Irons as being strategically valuable ancillary targets due to helping supply them with materials, slaves, and what have you.

    But "save the Dwarven princess" is another matter entirely. Doing that might weaken the DIs, but it would absolutely strengthen Ironforge/Magni, who would no longer have a reason to hold back in the region (as he - mistakenly as it turns out - thought it was a hostage situation.) It's as pointless as the Horde helping to retake Gnomeragan, or quell the Stockade riot. Some dungeons just make more sense as being faction-specific; I almost don't blame Garrosh for thinking Thrall was a weakling if he truly authorized that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Sunken temple was, "You are in the center chamber. Go to the single room to the north, the single room to the east, west and south, then come back." No real exploration, just go to the hallway till you reach the chamber at the end, then kill the mini boss and come back to travel another hall.
    No, that's new Sunken Temple. The old one had 3 floors and something like 8 bosses that you could do in nearly any order. It was a ton of fun, not to mention being a tailor and leatherworker's paradise.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2017-11-11 at 09:44 PM.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    For a while, before Mists of Panderia came out, I thought they were going with both Thrall and Garrosh having valid, if opposed, philosophies on how to lead the Horde. Thrall would always push for peace; Garrosh would reflexively retaliate against any threat. And when Varian declared war despite all Thrall's efforts, he realized the best thing he could do for the Horde was step aside for someone who could provide the war leadership his faction needed, unhampered by his reflexive desire to find a way to appease Varian.

    But then, of course, they went with, "no actually Thrall just put a monster in charge of the Horde for no reason and Varian was eager to make peace as soon as Garrosh wasn't there anymore" instead.

    Edited to add: Not that I think the "rescue the princess of Ironforge" thing was quite that irrational; Magni would have lost a tremendous amount of face in front of his people if the Horde had actually returned his unharmed, grateful-to-be-rescued daughter, who he hadn't been able to rescue, to him and he had responded with, "Yay, I have no reason not to immediately attack you now!" The public perception of honor, if not the reality, was always important to the Alliance, and to the dwarves most of all.
    Last edited by Kish; 2017-11-11 at 10:03 PM.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  16. - Top - End - #1366
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    For a while, before Mists of Panderia came out, I thought they were going with both Thrall and Garrosh having valid, if opposed, philosophies on how to lead the Horde. Thrall would always push for peace; Garrosh would reflexively retaliate against any threat. And when Varian declared war despite all Thrall's efforts, he realized the best thing he could do for the Horde was step aside for someone who could provide the war leadership his faction needed, unhampered by his reflexive desire to find a way to appease Varian.

    But then, of course, they went with, "no actually Thrall just put a monster in charge of the Horde for no reason and Varian was eager to make peace as soon as Garrosh wasn't there anymore" instead.

    Edited to add: Not that I think the "rescue the princess of Ironforge" thing was quite that irrational; Magni would have lost a tremendous amount of face in front of his people if the Horde had actually returned his unharmed, grateful-to-be-rescued daughter, who he hadn't been able to rescue, to him and he had responded with, "Yay, I have no reason not to immediately attack you now!" The public perception of honor, if not the reality, was always important to the Alliance, and to the dwarves most of all.
    Right, because all the other times the Horde saved their skin mattered so much to the Alliance
    (Hell, didn't we just come off of Thrall throwing his people's lives into Archimonde's meat grinder for the Night Elves' sake?)

    You're right though - they turned Garrosh into a rabid dog in seemingly mere moments of him assuming power, with no better justification than daddy issues.




    Rereading my post, I realized I sounded like I wanted BRD to be Alliance-specific. That's not the case - for a dungeon with that much detail crammed into it (however creaky and bloated I personally feel that made it), they absolutely should make it doable by the entire playerbase rather than one faction.

    Just... give the Horde a better reason to be there. Maybe instead of rescuing Moira, they're recovering something valuable that Dagran stole from them. Like, I dunno, maybe he took Doomhammer to use with his dark iron and make a WMD or something. That would be a quest worth risking Horde lives for. (I know, I know, not that kind of hammer, but still.) And it would even let you still use Dagran as the final boss. Some of my favorite dungeons are the ones that have dual-faction lore reasons to be there - like how both the Forsaken and the Worgen are leading the charge in Shadowfang Keep, for different reasons.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2017-11-11 at 10:14 PM.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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  17. - Top - End - #1367
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    If I was in charge of Blizzard, I'd launch one server, named Azeroth, which would be, permanently, in the state the game was in the day before the BC-preparation patch launched; one server, named Outland, which would be, permanently, in the state the game was in the day before the WotLK-preparation patch launched; and one server, named Northrend, which would be, permanently, in the state the game was in the day before the Cataclysm-preparation patch launched. If they were popular enough that I needed to add more servers of that type, than I would, but one of each would do for a start--defined as PvE, and not explicitly RP. I told one of my guildmates about this when Cataclysm was the current expansion and Deathwing wasn't yet available to be fought, so he'll vouch for me having thought of this long ago, if you can track him down. People who wanted Legion's "improvements" could go on playing Legion.
    Brilliant!

    Not that I'd play on any of these servers, but I think it'd please a lot of people.
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    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
    Brilliant!

    Not that I'd play on any of these servers, but I think it'd please a lot of people.
    And then we would hear tons of whining like "Aww MAN! I wanted to play the game from patch 1.205 back when it was GOOD! Not From patch 1.207 when they nerfed my favorite thing!" Come on, you know it would happen. Because everyone has a different idea of what the "perfect" point in the game was. Personally for me it was having my enhance shaman in dungeon blues beat the tar out of a warrior in molten core raid dps gear in a warsong gulch fight, but im cruel like that. (Enhance shaman were so op for awhile there, with a good 2h weapon and a windfury crit even the tankiest warrior could lose half his hp in an instant)
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    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

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    Default Re: WoW XIX: This is my Artifact. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

    I'm sure people would post things like that.

    I'm just not sure any of the people posting them would be people sincerely interested in any form of Classic, rather than trolls (Internet, not Azeroth) who regarded wanting Classic servers as a big joke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    I joined in Cataclysm and I am curious about vanilla servers if not exactly waiting for them. I would welcome a few modifications to normal classic (as I have heard levelling can be quite dull) but I would also be very accepting for pure vanilla servers for those who wanted them for so long. Point is: Without events the content eventually will get stale. Maybe they should roll out 1.0 in the first 6-9 months, then gradually add the other classic patches. But what will happen when you hit the end of classic? Will you then have "history" servers, going through BC onward?
    Hmm, well, eventually I suppose everyone will beat Naxx and something new is required. That said, very few people actually did that pre-BC. If memory serves, something lower than 1% of players downed any bosses in Naxx at all. There were enough raids before that, with some hard gear-checks to get there, so it just wasn't terribly fast to run out of content. Depending on how they release the content, it could last quite some time. On the flip side, how to do the raids is much more available information now.

    But, sooner or later they'll indeed hit a point where folks will want additional content. I'm generally down with this, so long as it's in the style of classic. This means no new continents, no flying mounts, sticking to 60 as the level cap, etc. After all, if you're just doing all the same updates as the main game, it kind of...becomes the main game. Just on a time delay. If folks were really eager to eventually play the game that wow is now, they could just...go play wow. So, I don't think that's a viable path for vanilla fans.

    You could maybe have different servers with higher content for people to transfer to if say, someone is a particular fan of TBC, but nothing after it. That said, that risks fracturing the playerbase. There have been so many updates and patches that maintaining servers for all of them would eventually become ridiculously difficult. Classic and Modern is a pretty decent split for now, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And here's where you lost me, but I think you knew that. My low opinion of sprawling, bloated, byzantine, pseudo-raid "dungeons" like BRD is pretty well-documented by now.

    Rather, I'll just point out that I don't think "making raids more accessible" and "making dungeon difficulty trivial" necessarily have to go together. Legion dungeons were actually fun and a little challenging, including staples like "the more difficult optional boss" and "optional thing your group can do to clear the dungeon a little faster that also raises the difficulty." Rather, I think it's LFR that is truly extraneous. If they want something to bridge the gap between 5-mans and raiding, I think Mythic+ serves that role, while being an endgame in its own right, much like Nightfalls do in Destiny.
    BRD was my favorite dungeon. It just felt delightfully complex and alive. For something set in a giant city, I think that feel is important. That said, not every dungeon ought to be that. Variety is nice. Onyxia, for instance, has a ridiculously straightforward dungeon layout. Go into the dragon cave, kill the dragon. In some ways, that's extremely simple, but it's still fun, and it feels right for that encounter, I think.

    So, in terms of overall dungeon design, I think it's best to have a variety, rather than stick to any one magic formula, which will then feel samey. If every dungeon were like BRD, people would rightfully complain that wayfinding was too difficult, but if every dungeon were a straightforward hallway of stabbing, it'd get boring really quick. I think that modern wow seems to have shied away from both extremes(BRD and onyxia), and most modern dungeons represent some midpoint of the two...which is not at all a bad thing, and is probably going to be decently liked by a lot of people, but means that dungeon runs will overall feel a lot more similar to each other, thanks to lower diversity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    BRD was my favorite dungeon. It just felt delightfully complex and alive. For something set in a giant city, I think that feel is important. That said, not every dungeon ought to be that. Variety is nice. Onyxia, for instance, has a ridiculously straightforward dungeon layout. Go into the dragon cave, kill the dragon. In some ways, that's extremely simple, but it's still fun, and it feels right for that encounter, I think.

    So, in terms of overall dungeon design, I think it's best to have a variety, rather than stick to any one magic formula, which will then feel samey. If every dungeon were like BRD, people would rightfully complain that wayfinding was too difficult, but if every dungeon were a straightforward hallway of stabbing, it'd get boring really quick. I think that modern wow seems to have shied away from both extremes(BRD and onyxia), and most modern dungeons represent some midpoint of the two...which is not at all a bad thing, and is probably going to be decently liked by a lot of people, but means that dungeon runs will overall feel a lot more similar to each other, thanks to lower diversity.
    I didn't experience Onyxia, but I did do Gruul who was fairly similar so I get where you're coming from.

    As for BRD, I'm just of the opinion that that level of complexity doesn't need to be in dungeons at all. Make it a raid - not only does it make more sense narratively (5 people vs. a city... doesn't), but it also greatly increases the group's chances that someone knows where they're going. I can't count the number of times I've zoned into BRD (in those horrible pre-Outland LFG doldrums) to end up with a group who was as clueless as I was about where to actually go, not helped by the fact that the entrance has multiple different portals to choose from.

    In fact, why don't we have any "10-man dungeons?" Something that requires two parties, but is much more forgiving than a raid. LFR is a clownfiesta because it forces you to have the full 25-man group, so nobody is paying attention to anything and getting carrried anyway. Something like a Cata heroic where the two groups have to communicate just a little - even if only by marking targets - would be ideal.

    Anyway, I digress - for complexity, the most I'm willing to tolerate is the likes of Wailing Caverns, Maraudon or Dire Maul - something that isn't just a monster corridor, but that pugs can actually learn without a divining rod and a gps.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2017-11-13 at 10:43 PM.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I didn't experience Onyxia, but I did do Gruul who was fairly similar so I get where you're coming from.

    As for BRD, I'm just of the opinion that that level of complexity doesn't need to be in dungeons at all. Make it a raid - not only does it make more sense narratively (5 people vs. a city... doesn't), but it also greatly increases the group's chances that someone knows where they're going. I can't count the number of times I've zoned into BRD (in those horrible pre-Outland LFG doldrums) to end up with a group who was as clueless as I was about where to actually go, not helped by the fact that the entrance has multiple different portals to choose from.

    In fact, why don't we have any "10-man dungeons?" Something that requires two parties, but is much more forgiving than a raid. LFR is a clownfiesta because it forces you to have the full 25-man group, so nobody is paying attention to anything and getting carrried anyway. Something like a Cata heroic where the two groups have to communicate just a little - even if only by marking targets - would be ideal.

    Anyway, I digress - for complexity, the most I'm willing to tolerate is the likes of Wailing Caverns, Maraudon or Dire Maul - something that isn't just a monster corridor, but that pugs can actually learn without a divining rod and a gps.
    Taking on an entire city does seem suitably epic for a raid. That said, for 5 man, it also felt good, because the scale of the dungeon was such that you simply didn't go murder everything. You waited for patrols to pass to bypass them, and went on specific runs, avoiding much of the dungeon. So, it felt like a daring incursion into enemy territory. Particularly so if you engaged in stealth runs or other shenanigans, which the dungeon worked pretty well for.

    I do think they should have different sizes as well, ideally. Not everyone loves the full on 25 man raid, or the 40 person raids of classic wow. That large of a run just brings a lot of complexity in organization, and getting everyone on the same page can be a challenge. Fine if that's your cuppa tea, but for everyone it isn't.

    UBRS was nice as a 10/15 man dungeon, though. I don't see any particular reason why that sort of thing can't be brought out again. It's a good in between experience, with a lot of the high points of both raiding and five manning.

    Maraudon basically broke down into purple or orange side, if memory served. Dire Maul had very specific, fairly linear runs heading out from a central hub. That sort of dungeon design is the sort of standardization I'm talking about. It's most folks's favorite design, because they can do a specific wing easily and with low navigation trouble. Unfortunately, because it's well liked, it runs into overuse issues. At present, quite a number of dungeons look something like this. A number of sub-runs that are basically linear branching out from a hub. Quest destinations have become designed similarly(quest hubs have always been part of wow, but it's gradually gotten more and more closer to a standard, with fewer exceptions).

    BRD was basically just an entire zone inside an instance.

    I wonder if it'd have felt different if the zone was on the world map, and only specific portions of it were instanced(corresponding roughly to traditional runs)? That gets you a structure far closer to the standard, and it feels different, despite having pretty much the same content. I guess the instance doorway really matters.
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